I'm surprised to see a lot of those cards ahead of Jitte. There's also a few cards that there we ended up cutting for not being good enough. I guess the mtgo legacy cube plays a lot different from mine.
I haven't played Shrine of Burning Rage yet though and Ihear good things!
Shrine is a sweet card and is amazing in the mono red deck. Less people are MDing disenchants outside of green so it is not always eating it every g1.
Jitte that low is a shocker. Even the blue deck are kind of creature based, I've found; the cube is very creature-heavy in general, it feels. I think it's the best card in that cube by a long shot and would take it p1p1 over anything.
I'm also surprised to see Sulfuric Vortex so low. For me, it remains the premier reason to play an aggressive mono-red deck.
The whole list seems suspect in general, and warped towards a specific kind of player. Teferi and Opposition are too restrictive for me to rate them as highly as they are here. Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, Goblin Guide, Sylvan Library (???), and all but one Titan are nowhere to be found. Compulsive Research doesn't deserve to be on the list, let alone #11. Coalition Relic, while great, is not so much better than the rest of the mana rocks that it deserves #6 while almost all the rest don't get a spot on the list.
This list is obviously tailored to control players and centered around the Legacy cube. He has more experience with it than I do. Some of the rankings seem off, and others seem pretty close. Obviously I'd move Vortex and the 'Geddons up, add Goblin Guide, move Vision and Compulsive Research WAY down (actually, I'd probably take them off), move Jitte up and do a few other changes. But since this cube is midrangey, building a blue-based control deck seems like a winning strategy in the majority of the drafts, so ranking those kinds of cards highly is appropriate for this cube. But Teferi? No dice. I can do better than that outside of a SB card for the control mirror.
I've found that the MTGO Legacy Cube (and Holiday Cube for that matter) are a completely different experience from drafting my own cube. I mostly had a miserable time playing Holiday Cube despite being a huge fan of my own powered cube. The Legacy Cube is better without all the Storm and Time Vault nonsense, but aggro is still hurting quite a bit which is probably why he ranks something like Vortex so low. Blue is far and above the best color in this cube. This is true for most cubes, but it's blatantly obvious with this one. If you can be blue and play counter spells in some form or fashion, then that's probably correct.
I've done at least 30 drafts in the Legacy Cube (both periods it was available combined), and it's undeniably true that Blue is the best color in the format AND that the most powerful individual cards are Blue. So I think it's reasonable to have a preference for Blue going into the draft. What I don't think is reasonable is claiming that forcing Blue every draft is going to lead to great results, that Blue decks have no bad matchups or that other colors are automatically bad. (Note that Reid didn't say any of those things!)
The great thing about Cube (or any draft format) is that it's self-correcting. Blue is the best color, but mostly that just means that many players are drafting it and splitting the best cards among them. Sure, every now and then there's a draft where Blue is wide open and you get Treachery 6th pick, and then you're going to end up with the best deck at the table. But the same thing can happen with (for example) the Green ramp deck (5th Joraga Treespeaker, 8th pick Woodfall Primus? Yes please!) or the Red Aggro/Burn deck. More often than not there are 4 or even 5 Blue drafters at the table and they fight over the best cards (and, incidentally, the mana fixing to make their 3-color decks work).
Also, I don't understand the criticism that aggro is supposed to be weak in the Legacy Cube. I have won drafts with aggro decks in all three colors. Several of those featured an all-aggro finals. So there's definitely room for aggro decks to do well. Incidentally, this is *because* of what I wrote above. In a format where slightly clunky 3-color control decks (with too few cheap interactive spells and too many 4- and 5-mana heymakers) are common, fast aggro decks get a lot of free wins. Sure, if you lump all the Blue-based control decks together in one group and all the aggro decks in the other, it may very well be the case that the former group wins more drafts overall, but I don't think that says anything about the format's quality or health.
To answer Reid's question about when/how to draft Red decks: I think it's definitely possible and even advisable to jump into Red fairly late if you see it's open. In fact, "go Mono-Red" is my plan B in every draft. That's because there are so many cards that are only really useful in Red aggro decks. Most packs have at least two, so in pack 2 and pack 3 you often get 12 useful cards each if Red is open. That's an entire deck right there! For example, last night I 3-0'd a draft with a Mono Red deck where my 1st red card was a Hellrider that wheeled from the pack I opened (I think my first pick was Joraga Treespeaker). I got a 15th pick Searing Blaze (which is probably the best burn spell in the Cube if you're heavy Red by the way), and those two plus a Mishra's Factory where the only pack 1 cards that made my final deck. I have done many similar drafts in the past - especially before Red was supposedly toned down two Cube updates ago, but it's still a viable strategy.
The only decks that IMO should actively be avoided are the "true" midrange decks, i.e. base-White, -Black, or -Green decks with a bunch of creatures and removal spells with a glut of 3- and 4-mana spells. If your deck has cards like Archangel of Thune, Phantom Centaur, Disciple of Bolas and the like in it, it's probably not a great deck. You can play "midrange" decks, but then you have to make sure you're doing something particularly powerful (i.e. unfair/broken). Examples are Green Ramp decks (T5 Terastodon or Karn Liberated qualifies as "broken" in this format), Black-based Graveyard decks (Living Death and Recurring Nightmare are insanely powerful cards - note that this deck needs some very specific cards, so forcing it is a bad idea), and to an extent White-based token decks (although the best versions of those are really just aggro decks). The only exception to the "no nonbroken midrange decks"-rule is the UG "Goodstuff" deck that relies on the fact that those are the best colors and are often able to just bury any opponent in card quality.
With all that said, the most egregious mistakes in Reid's list:
- Umezawa's Jitte is a top-5 card in the format and either the best or the 2nd best P1P1. Sure, it doesn't work well in the best deck (Blue control), but it works in every other deck and it's colorless, so you can be sure to be able to play it. This format is slower and more creature-based than most Cubes (it's emphatically not the Vintage Cube), and Jitte is broken beyond repair in a format like that.
- There is absolutely no way that 40 cards are better P1P1 than Wurmcoil Engine. Again, it's colorless, and it goes into any deck except aggro decks, against which it incidentally wins the game on its own once it comes down.
- I don't understand why Compulsive Research and Ancestral Vision are so high on the list and Fact or Fiction, Mulldrifter, Deep Analysis and the two "fair" Jaces (among other card drawing spells) are not. It's debatable which of these are the best, but that's not really important: you want 2 or 3 of these effects in each Blue control deck, but it doesn't really matter which ones.
- Cryptic Command is too high; it's a great card, but its casting cost is a real thing. It asks not only that you're Blue, but heavy Blue, which can be hard to do with 4 Blue drafters at the average table.
- Joraga Treespeaker should be up there somewhere. It's slightly less broken than Rofellos, but it doesn't put as much constraints on the rest of your draft. It's definitely a higher pick than any of the Garruks or Primeval Titan, except later in the draft when you already have several mana guys.
- Force of Will is overrated in a fair format. It's still a good card of course (mainly because it has a hardcast option), but it's not something I would be happy first-picking. Counterspell is better (the list agree with that), but is not even close to a top-20 card. Mana Leak might very well be better (just because it's so hard to be heavy Blue).
- Other cards in the list that are mystifying and that I would certainly never P1P1: Kiki-Jiki, Parallax Wave, Bonfire of the Damned, Lingering Souls (mainly because it's a gold card, it could very well be a top-40 card just based on power level), Tamiyo, Teferi.
- Other cards that would probably make my top-40 (at least if going by P1P1 value over pure power level): Phyrexian Metamorph, Myr Battlesphere, Gideon Jura, Liliana of the Veil, Worn Powerstone, Grim Monolith, Grave Titan.
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/the-40-best-cards-in-the-mtgo-legacy-cube/
(list not current)
My Cube Google Docs Spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AibgWfz0ukmOdDNhOHlucjcxUi1wVy00NDhLbDUtUlE&hl=en_US#gid=8
(list is always current)
I haven't played Shrine of Burning Rage yet though and Ihear good things!
Jitte that low is a shocker. Even the blue deck are kind of creature based, I've found; the cube is very creature-heavy in general, it feels. I think it's the best card in that cube by a long shot and would take it p1p1 over anything.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The whole list seems suspect in general, and warped towards a specific kind of player. Teferi and Opposition are too restrictive for me to rate them as highly as they are here. Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, Goblin Guide, Sylvan Library (???), and all but one Titan are nowhere to be found. Compulsive Research doesn't deserve to be on the list, let alone #11. Coalition Relic, while great, is not so much better than the rest of the mana rocks that it deserves #6 while almost all the rest don't get a spot on the list.
Cubetutor Link
Goblin Guide isn't even on the list. Figure of Destiny is not better than Goblin Guide.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
The great thing about Cube (or any draft format) is that it's self-correcting. Blue is the best color, but mostly that just means that many players are drafting it and splitting the best cards among them. Sure, every now and then there's a draft where Blue is wide open and you get Treachery 6th pick, and then you're going to end up with the best deck at the table. But the same thing can happen with (for example) the Green ramp deck (5th Joraga Treespeaker, 8th pick Woodfall Primus? Yes please!) or the Red Aggro/Burn deck. More often than not there are 4 or even 5 Blue drafters at the table and they fight over the best cards (and, incidentally, the mana fixing to make their 3-color decks work).
Also, I don't understand the criticism that aggro is supposed to be weak in the Legacy Cube. I have won drafts with aggro decks in all three colors. Several of those featured an all-aggro finals. So there's definitely room for aggro decks to do well. Incidentally, this is *because* of what I wrote above. In a format where slightly clunky 3-color control decks (with too few cheap interactive spells and too many 4- and 5-mana heymakers) are common, fast aggro decks get a lot of free wins. Sure, if you lump all the Blue-based control decks together in one group and all the aggro decks in the other, it may very well be the case that the former group wins more drafts overall, but I don't think that says anything about the format's quality or health.
To answer Reid's question about when/how to draft Red decks: I think it's definitely possible and even advisable to jump into Red fairly late if you see it's open. In fact, "go Mono-Red" is my plan B in every draft. That's because there are so many cards that are only really useful in Red aggro decks. Most packs have at least two, so in pack 2 and pack 3 you often get 12 useful cards each if Red is open. That's an entire deck right there! For example, last night I 3-0'd a draft with a Mono Red deck where my 1st red card was a Hellrider that wheeled from the pack I opened (I think my first pick was Joraga Treespeaker). I got a 15th pick Searing Blaze (which is probably the best burn spell in the Cube if you're heavy Red by the way), and those two plus a Mishra's Factory where the only pack 1 cards that made my final deck. I have done many similar drafts in the past - especially before Red was supposedly toned down two Cube updates ago, but it's still a viable strategy.
The only decks that IMO should actively be avoided are the "true" midrange decks, i.e. base-White, -Black, or -Green decks with a bunch of creatures and removal spells with a glut of 3- and 4-mana spells. If your deck has cards like Archangel of Thune, Phantom Centaur, Disciple of Bolas and the like in it, it's probably not a great deck. You can play "midrange" decks, but then you have to make sure you're doing something particularly powerful (i.e. unfair/broken). Examples are Green Ramp decks (T5 Terastodon or Karn Liberated qualifies as "broken" in this format), Black-based Graveyard decks (Living Death and Recurring Nightmare are insanely powerful cards - note that this deck needs some very specific cards, so forcing it is a bad idea), and to an extent White-based token decks (although the best versions of those are really just aggro decks). The only exception to the "no nonbroken midrange decks"-rule is the UG "Goodstuff" deck that relies on the fact that those are the best colors and are often able to just bury any opponent in card quality.
With all that said, the most egregious mistakes in Reid's list:
- Umezawa's Jitte is a top-5 card in the format and either the best or the 2nd best P1P1. Sure, it doesn't work well in the best deck (Blue control), but it works in every other deck and it's colorless, so you can be sure to be able to play it. This format is slower and more creature-based than most Cubes (it's emphatically not the Vintage Cube), and Jitte is broken beyond repair in a format like that.
- There is absolutely no way that 40 cards are better P1P1 than Wurmcoil Engine. Again, it's colorless, and it goes into any deck except aggro decks, against which it incidentally wins the game on its own once it comes down.
- I don't understand why Compulsive Research and Ancestral Vision are so high on the list and Fact or Fiction, Mulldrifter, Deep Analysis and the two "fair" Jaces (among other card drawing spells) are not. It's debatable which of these are the best, but that's not really important: you want 2 or 3 of these effects in each Blue control deck, but it doesn't really matter which ones.
- Cryptic Command is too high; it's a great card, but its casting cost is a real thing. It asks not only that you're Blue, but heavy Blue, which can be hard to do with 4 Blue drafters at the average table.
- Joraga Treespeaker should be up there somewhere. It's slightly less broken than Rofellos, but it doesn't put as much constraints on the rest of your draft. It's definitely a higher pick than any of the Garruks or Primeval Titan, except later in the draft when you already have several mana guys.
- Force of Will is overrated in a fair format. It's still a good card of course (mainly because it has a hardcast option), but it's not something I would be happy first-picking. Counterspell is better (the list agree with that), but is not even close to a top-20 card. Mana Leak might very well be better (just because it's so hard to be heavy Blue).
- Other cards in the list that are mystifying and that I would certainly never P1P1: Kiki-Jiki, Parallax Wave, Bonfire of the Damned, Lingering Souls (mainly because it's a gold card, it could very well be a top-40 card just based on power level), Tamiyo, Teferi.
- Other cards that would probably make my top-40 (at least if going by P1P1 value over pure power level): Phyrexian Metamorph, Myr Battlesphere, Gideon Jura, Liliana of the Veil, Worn Powerstone, Grim Monolith, Grave Titan.
A Comprehensive list of Cube Archetypes
Twitter
Youtube Channel
Cube Podcast
Draft my Cube!