fwiw, if u dont find the time for "year in review sets", I do enjoy stopping by your list thread to see your testing results with new cards and old staples that may no longer cut it
I just watched TSG and Eckamon's discussion of Fate Reforged for their cube (630 powered), and it's really surprising how different their opinions are.
They dismissed Warden almost immediately as not worth it (which was also my first instinct), and talked about Monastery Mentor briefly before dismissing it as well. On the other hand, one of the cards they were most excited to add is Reality Shift.
It's surprising how different opinions can be even among people who've been maintaining cubes for years and years.
@LucidVision: Ya, cards that are still in 24 months after a set is released is a better indicator of how well they're doing than any post-set review could.
@cromonolith: It is interesting how different the opinions can be. I find myself disagreeing with TSG quite often, but that's the beauty of this format. It is what you want it to be. FWIW, Warden has been amazing so far, and Mentor has been really good too. And I have zero interest in Reality Shift. A body is a body in the cube, and turning one threat into another threat has always been bad outside of cubes that are slower and bigger. If your average cube creature is a 3/3 or bigger, Shift will be more useful. But a 2/2 threat is still a threat in faster cubes, so Shift loses a lot of its value.
And I have zero interest in Reality Shift. A body is a body in the cube, and turning one threat into another threat has always been bad outside of cubes that are slower and bigger. If your average cube creature is a 3/3 or bigger, Shift will be more useful. But a 2/2 threat is still a threat in faster cubes, so Shift loses a lot of its value.
Even with all of the top deck tutors you run (Personal Tutor and Imperial Seal in addition to the usual one)?
Tell me about how Warden has been though. He feels like he'll just be the equivalent of a 3/3 Haste that costs GB or GW, which is good. It's hard not to imagine it just getting bolted after I've sunk 13 mana into it though. If I was to include one card from this wedge it feels more likely to be Siege Rhino.
Yes, even with the tutors available (which don't really impact the value of the card much in the grand scheme outside of some minuscule corner-cases) the average performance of the card will still be an equivalent Pongify effect or a mediocre protection effect for your own guys. Removal that replaces a threat with a threat is no good, and a defensive spell that protects your creature ...but then turns it into a generic 2/2? That's not great either. So it has some value in its flexibility, but not enough to justify the fact that both modes are just bad at their jobs. I'd much prefer an Unsummon/Cloudshift split card, which Reality Shift does a really bad job of impersonating.
And aggressive 1-drops that bash for 3 on T2 are amazing, and there's pretty much no cards that do that. Don't level to the middle mode in a situation where it's bad to do so. Just because the card has the ability doesn't mean you have to play bad Magic and walk directly into a Bolt. Use the middle ability only when it's relevant or safe (or "free" because it doesn't prevent you from doing anything else) or use it when you're moving from 5 to 6 mana as a "bridge" to the ultimate that you're sure you'll connect at least once with. It transforms from one of the best aggressive stat attackers into the most threatening top-end creature in the cube in a matter of seconds, and your opponent can't ignore either mode. The removal weakness is WAY over-exaggerated. Just don't play bad Magic and it'll be stellar.
My biggest problem with Reality Shift is that half of the utility of Pongify and Beast Within is using it on your own creatures as a cheap combat trick, whereas with Shift that's never going to be an acceptable use of the card. It would be one thing if it could kill various different permanent types, but here you're always going to be trading a creature for a creature.
This is closer to an instant-speed Lignify that leaves behind a threatening body. That's not good enough for cube.
I really cannot agree with your top 3 cards in the set though I understand your reasons and for why - in your cube, especially - you value them in that way.
On Warden of the First Tree, I think that he's a pretty marginal one drop on top of him being in the worst aggro color in magic history. I am aware that you heavily support aggro in all 5 colors however, I've long since shied away from this philosophy as the reality is that green aggro is just *****. Green does provide the premiere ramp to support leveling Warden of the First Tree however you must do so by additionally spending the worst colors to supplement green aggro. There's an argument that Warden of the First Tree is predominantly going to be a Selesnya card, and function as a second Wild Nacatl in a Naya deck with added late-game utility. I still like Wild Nacatl over Warden of the First Tree because you can still pump Nacatl through a fetchland versus Warden requires mana invested which is a huge loss of tempo. If I had the mana to 4-pump Warden, I'd rather just drop a Kalonian Hydra or Baneslayer Angel.
On Mardu War-Reaper, I'm a big fan of him as well but he's not the #2 best card in the set in my eyes. He's going to permanently replace Elite Vanguard and maybe that's what you're trying to insinuate with him being the #2 card in the set.. He just won't be replaced for a while. With that logic, Warden of the First Tree is like a #6 or #7 because inevitably he'll be replaced.
On Monastery Mentor, I'm just so not impressed by it. If this bro were printed in blue or red I would have been so, so on board. The power behind Young Pyromancer lay in his mana cost and color. Hallowed Spiritkeeper provides so much scarier inevitability than Mentor. He does what white wants to be doing in cube. Just everything about Monastery Mentor gives me a sour taste in my mouth.
Soulfire Grand Master is so, so powerful. The ceiling on this guy is beyond ridiculous. He's my #1. Unquestionably.
I'm always finding red three drops the most difficult and underpowered spots in my cube. For this reason, holy hell, how are Flamewake Phoenix and Alesha, Who Smiles at Death not up in the top 5? The ferocious is going to be incredibly difficult to achieve in sligh with Flamewake Phoenix. However, he's a second Chandra's Phoenix in functionality and will stay in the playing field versus Hell's Thunder who just isn't what we are looking for.
If I had the mana to 4-pump Warden, I'd rather just drop a Kalonian Hydra or Baneslayer Angel.
Those cards cost 5, not 4. And you don't use the 4 mana ability when it's a bad play to do so. Like, when you need to spend the mana on something else. Also, this:
Quote from me »
And aggressive 1-drops that bash for 3 on T2 are amazing, and there's pretty much no cards that do that. Don't level to the middle mode in a situation where it's bad to do so. Just because the card has the ability doesn't mean you have to play bad Magic and walk directly into a Bolt. Use the middle ability only when it's relevant or safe (or "free" because it doesn't prevent you from doing anything else) or use it when you're moving from 5 to 6 mana as a "bridge" to the ultimate that you're sure you'll connect at least once with. It transforms from one of the best aggressive stat attackers into the most threatening top-end creature in the cube in a matter of seconds, and your opponent can't ignore either mode. The removal weakness is WAY over-exaggerated. Just don't play bad Magic and it'll be stellar.
Quote from FiveFingers »
He's going to permanently replace Elite Vanguard
It didn't for me, but even if it were to the point where the 1-drops were getting replaced, he'll be staying for a long time. It will go into every cube of every size. I think the #2 spot is perfectly reasonable for it.
Quote from FiveFingers »
With that logic, Warden of the First Tree is like a #6 or #7 because inevitably he'll be replaced.
I doubt that very much. At the rate they print good green aggro creatures, this card won't be replaced for years ...if ever since it's one of the best green aggro creatures ever made.
Quote from FiveFingers »
Just everything about Monastery Mentor gives me a sour taste in my mouth.
Interesting. Too bad it's a really good Magic card.
Quote from FiveFingers »
For this reason, holy hell, how are Flamewake Phoenix and Alesha, Who Smiles at Death not up in the top 5?
Flamewake Phoenix is not a good card. It's just a bad Chandra's Phoenix, which is already not a card I'd play outside of a large cube. And Alesha is in the top 10, but since it needs multiple colors to be played, it wasn't going to crack the top 5. It's a good red 3-drop for RE and RB, but it can't just be used in anything.
Quote from FiveFingers »
Also, I think Whisperwood Elemental is bonkers good.
It's decent. 5 mana is a lot and that section is stacked with better options.
In addition, Nacatl requires you to be playing 3 colors in order to have it be a 3/3, and it's hard to get it to that size on T2 in cube. Warden requires you to spend mana, but it's a 3/3 on T2 pretty much all the time, and you only need to be playing a 2-color deck.
And in regards to the Mentor, yes he costs 1 more mana than Pyromancer, which is why he won't be replacing him in Vintage any time soon. But in the cube, for that extra mana you're getting a bigger body, prowess, prowess for your tokens, and it triggers off of 5 card types instead of 2. It's well worth the extra mana for those advantages in this format.
I'd honestly argue that there are better blue aggro decks to be made in cube than in green. I'm thinking about Psionic Blast and Serendib Efreet, for example. That said, I think I'm just trying to do something vastly different in my cube than whitewolf's. Additionally, I think the major outlier with my cube over the majority of others is in the degeneracy. A green or black aggro deck just won't cut it in my cube and honestly, no one ever drafted them anyway. In retrospect I shouldn't have posted in this thread; it came off as an attack whitewolf which really was not my intent. It was really just a retrospective in my reasoning on Fate Reforged inclusions in my cube which would have been better off being stated in the includes/testing result thread or just discussed among my playgroup.
But maybe I ought to reconsider Monastery Mentor. What gives me such the sour taste is in that it feels so midrangey/slow. My slow white decks usually win through Moat or Superfriends+board wipes, which neither really take advantage of this card. Mentor just feels like such an in-betweener that doesn't bring a whole lot to either archetype (control or aggro). But maybe I'm way off base and need to give him a few weeks of testing to see otherwise.
I'm just trying to do something vastly different in my cube than whitewolf's.
It's all good. Probably best to just leave things here once we've identified that's the case. Obviously the rankings aren't intended to target cubes with wildly different philosophies from my own. Part of the nature of such a customizable format.
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I just watched TSG and Eckamon's discussion of Fate Reforged for their cube (630 powered), and it's really surprising how different their opinions are.
They dismissed Warden almost immediately as not worth it (which was also my first instinct), and talked about Monastery Mentor briefly before dismissing it as well. On the other hand, one of the cards they were most excited to add is Reality Shift.
It's surprising how different opinions can be even among people who've been maintaining cubes for years and years.
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Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
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@cromonolith: It is interesting how different the opinions can be. I find myself disagreeing with TSG quite often, but that's the beauty of this format. It is what you want it to be. FWIW, Warden has been amazing so far, and Mentor has been really good too. And I have zero interest in Reality Shift. A body is a body in the cube, and turning one threat into another threat has always been bad outside of cubes that are slower and bigger. If your average cube creature is a 3/3 or bigger, Shift will be more useful. But a 2/2 threat is still a threat in faster cubes, so Shift loses a lot of its value.
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Even with all of the top deck tutors you run (Personal Tutor and Imperial Seal in addition to the usual one)?
Tell me about how Warden has been though. He feels like he'll just be the equivalent of a 3/3 Haste that costs GB or GW, which is good. It's hard not to imagine it just getting bolted after I've sunk 13 mana into it though. If I was to include one card from this wedge it feels more likely to be Siege Rhino.
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged
And aggressive 1-drops that bash for 3 on T2 are amazing, and there's pretty much no cards that do that. Don't level to the middle mode in a situation where it's bad to do so. Just because the card has the ability doesn't mean you have to play bad Magic and walk directly into a Bolt. Use the middle ability only when it's relevant or safe (or "free" because it doesn't prevent you from doing anything else) or use it when you're moving from 5 to 6 mana as a "bridge" to the ultimate that you're sure you'll connect at least once with. It transforms from one of the best aggressive stat attackers into the most threatening top-end creature in the cube in a matter of seconds, and your opponent can't ignore either mode. The removal weakness is WAY over-exaggerated. Just don't play bad Magic and it'll be stellar.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This is closer to an instant-speed Lignify that leaves behind a threatening body. That's not good enough for cube.
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On Warden of the First Tree, I think that he's a pretty marginal one drop on top of him being in the worst aggro color in magic history. I am aware that you heavily support aggro in all 5 colors however, I've long since shied away from this philosophy as the reality is that green aggro is just *****. Green does provide the premiere ramp to support leveling Warden of the First Tree however you must do so by additionally spending the worst colors to supplement green aggro. There's an argument that Warden of the First Tree is predominantly going to be a Selesnya card, and function as a second Wild Nacatl in a Naya deck with added late-game utility. I still like Wild Nacatl over Warden of the First Tree because you can still pump Nacatl through a fetchland versus Warden requires mana invested which is a huge loss of tempo. If I had the mana to 4-pump Warden, I'd rather just drop a Kalonian Hydra or Baneslayer Angel.
On Mardu War-Reaper, I'm a big fan of him as well but he's not the #2 best card in the set in my eyes. He's going to permanently replace Elite Vanguard and maybe that's what you're trying to insinuate with him being the #2 card in the set.. He just won't be replaced for a while. With that logic, Warden of the First Tree is like a #6 or #7 because inevitably he'll be replaced.
On Monastery Mentor, I'm just so not impressed by it. If this bro were printed in blue or red I would have been so, so on board. The power behind Young Pyromancer lay in his mana cost and color. Hallowed Spiritkeeper provides so much scarier inevitability than Mentor. He does what white wants to be doing in cube. Just everything about Monastery Mentor gives me a sour taste in my mouth.
Soulfire Grand Master is so, so powerful. The ceiling on this guy is beyond ridiculous. He's my #1. Unquestionably.
I'm always finding red three drops the most difficult and underpowered spots in my cube. For this reason, holy hell, how are Flamewake Phoenix and Alesha, Who Smiles at Death not up in the top 5? The ferocious is going to be incredibly difficult to achieve in sligh with Flamewake Phoenix. However, he's a second Chandra's Phoenix in functionality and will stay in the playing field versus Hell's Thunder who just isn't what we are looking for.
Also, I think Whisperwood Elemental is bonkers good. The dude's an army in a can (which green always loves) and has so many interactions with the cube that once I start thinking about cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Scroll Rack, Opposition, Flickerwisp, Restoration Angel or Recurring Nightmare I get a real, real sexy feeling inside.
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False.
This is also false.
Those cards cost 5, not 4. And you don't use the 4 mana ability when it's a bad play to do so. Like, when you need to spend the mana on something else. Also, this:
It didn't for me, but even if it were to the point where the 1-drops were getting replaced, he'll be staying for a long time. It will go into every cube of every size. I think the #2 spot is perfectly reasonable for it.
I doubt that very much. At the rate they print good green aggro creatures, this card won't be replaced for years ...if ever since it's one of the best green aggro creatures ever made.
Interesting. Too bad it's a really good Magic card.
Flamewake Phoenix is not a good card. It's just a bad Chandra's Phoenix, which is already not a card I'd play outside of a large cube. And Alesha is in the top 10, but since it needs multiple colors to be played, it wasn't going to crack the top 5. It's a good red 3-drop for RE and RB, but it can't just be used in anything.
It's decent. 5 mana is a lot and that section is stacked with better options.
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In addition, Nacatl requires you to be playing 3 colors in order to have it be a 3/3, and it's hard to get it to that size on T2 in cube. Warden requires you to spend mana, but it's a 3/3 on T2 pretty much all the time, and you only need to be playing a 2-color deck.
And in regards to the Mentor, yes he costs 1 more mana than Pyromancer, which is why he won't be replacing him in Vintage any time soon. But in the cube, for that extra mana you're getting a bigger body, prowess, prowess for your tokens, and it triggers off of 5 card types instead of 2. It's well worth the extra mana for those advantages in this format.
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But maybe I ought to reconsider Monastery Mentor. What gives me such the sour taste is in that it feels so midrangey/slow. My slow white decks usually win through Moat or Superfriends+board wipes, which neither really take advantage of this card. Mentor just feels like such an in-betweener that doesn't bring a whole lot to either archetype (control or aggro). But maybe I'm way off base and need to give him a few weeks of testing to see otherwise.
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It's all good. Probably best to just leave things here once we've identified that's the case. Obviously the rankings aren't intended to target cubes with wildly different philosophies from my own. Part of the nature of such a customizable format.
Cheers man, and happy cubing.
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