I'd like to single out your comment on Heliod's Spear. Your comment that the upgrade from Glorious Anthem makes up for its weakness as a "do nothing" card really got my attention. Nice point!
Its definitely interesting that many of these 20 are almost strictly better upgrades of existing cards, 3 of which are already cube cards (Anthem, Lion, Pup) (Anthem/Spear is not really strictly - as the Spear is an artifact)
For me I will definitely include the top 4 in my 450.
The rest I will have to wait and see; I will be catching up on my missing Innistrad cards and will be waiting for the post rotation price drop.
Great review! I haven't tested Steam Augury yet but it seems fun and potentially powerful. I would have ranked it a little more conservatively, but otherwise I think your list is pretty spot on. Thanks for putting it together!
With these trades I'm not sure:
(Karmic Guide v Parallax Wave) --> Soldier of the Pantheon
I know that your are a Karmic Guide supporter but I will probably cut him. He's insane in the recurring deck and cool with 'lark, but he is also the weakest 5 drop and the first creature I would cut. I could cut the wave, but the effect is cool and skill intense; Moat has still a big game impact imo and my playgroup likes Ajani, Caller of the Pride very much.
(Enclave Cryptologist v Dungeon Geists v Inkwell Leviathan v Jace, Architect of Thought v Into the Roil v Thirst for Knowledge v Standstill ) --> Thassa, God of the Sea
Blue is even at 450 very tight. My group would rather cut the Cryptologist than the Dungeon Geists, which I don't understand :). The Inkwell is Tinker only and the weakest blue card but Tinker needs here an additional target. Jace and Thirst for Knowledge are still fine. I could cut the Roil but it is the last classic bounce spell in cube. Standstill is the only dedicated blue tempo card in my cube and blue tempo is here a big thing.
EDIT:
@Temple of Mystery
I still run the Hinterland Harbor in my 4th slot as I really, really don't like the bounce lands, because the blowout potential is too high for me.
Do you think that the Temple is stronger than the Harbor?
Thanks
Some thoughts:
I think Fireblast is really, really good. I would look elsewhere for cuts before taking that. Perhaps one of the weaker Chandras? (Nalaar/Firebrand)
Great review! I haven't tested Steam Augury yet but it seems fun and potentially powerful. I would have ranked it a little more conservatively, but otherwise I think your list is pretty spot on. Thanks for putting it together!
Happy to hear you liked it!
If it were any other combination, I would've been more conservative with my ranking of Augury. But it's Izzet. So this card will see lots of play, and probably for a while.
With these trades I'm not sure:
(Karmic Guide v Parallax Wave) --> Soldier of the Pantheon
I know that your are a Karmic Guide supporter but I will probably cut him. He's insane in the recurring deck and cool with 'lark, but he is also the weakest 5 drop and the first creature I would cut. I could cut the wave, but the effect is cool and skill intense; Moat has still a big game impact imo and my playgroup likes Ajani, Caller of the Pride very much.
The only reason I'd suggest the Wave be the cut here is because the white 4cc noncreature slot is simply jammed with great cards.
It would be between Phoenix and Charge for me too. Every time we played Charge, I always wanted it to be another threat or another burn spell instead of what it actually is; maybe this is a chance to make that happen!
(Enclave Cryptologist v Dungeon Geists v Inkwell Leviathan v Jace, Architect of Thought v Into the Roil v Thirst for Knowledge v Standstill ) --> Thassa, God of the Sea
Blue is even at 450 very tight. My group would rather cut the Cryptologist than the Dungeon Geists, which I don't understand :). The Inkwell is Tinker only and the weakest blue card but Tinker needs here an additional target. Jace and Thirst for Knowledge are still fine. I could cut the Roil but it is the last classic bounce spell in cube. Standstill is the only dedicated blue tempo card in my cube and blue tempo is here a big thing.
Most of those cards look like okay cuts, except for Cryptologist (cube needs looting still) and Leviathan (cube needs Tinker/Reanimation targets still). I personally would cut Geists or Jace first (4cmc!) if it were up to me. Standstill is really good in blue tempo, but that deck is a monster even without the dedicated support, so throwing in a more universally playable blue card might benefit more decks.
EDIT:
@Temple of Mystery
I still run the Hinterland Harbor in my 4th slot as I really, really don't like the bounce lands, because the blowout potential is too high for me.
Do you think that the Temple is stronger than the Harbor?
Pretty much gonna include the top 10 on the list in my cube and omenspeaker. Pretty much in line with my thinking.. I think i like the Whip of Erebos a bit more and probably would of placed Fleecemane in the top 20 as well.
This set started off lame but ended up really strong. I'm glad at least one of the gods is probably finding a home in my cube(Thassa) a pity the others really aren't that great in cube.
The only unfortunate thing is that we didn't get a 2/1 for G as I had thought we might after the other 3, who are all windmill slams into my cube.
Pretty much gonna include the top 10 on the list in my cube and omenspeaker. Pretty much in line with my thinking.. I think i like the Whip of Erebos a bit more and probably would of placed Fleecemane in the top 20 as well.
Glad you liked the review.
I can't see Fleecemane cracking the top 20. The combination has at least 10 better cards in it. And even if you focussed on including cards for the sole purpose of bolstering WG aggro, it's still only the 6th best card. And that would be if you ignored all the other better WG cards for other decks.
This set started off lame but ended up really strong. I'm glad at least one of the gods is probably finding a home in my cube(Thassa) a pity the others really aren't that great in cube.
The only unfortunate thing is that we didn't get a 2/1 for G as I had thought we might after the other 3, who are all windmill slams into my cube.
Once red gets the token support cards that I want, Purphoros will be a monster of a card.
I also really wanted a green aggro dude, but we'll just have to wait. If the rest of the block is as aggro-focussed as the first set was, we'll have a ton of playable stuff from this block going in.
I know you hate ashiok, but he's definitely in my top 20.
Just wondering did you ever test he/she/it? A lot of people don't like him on paper, but he has been freaking amazing in testing.
also, how sick of a story would doom blading your tormented hero for the win be.
My group did a fantastic job of convincing me that Ashiok has no place in my cube, so I can leave it out. Their resounding opinion that it's complete trash really just confirmed my suspicions. We'd much rather just play a card that we know what it'll do than playing a 3cc gold random creature with suspend that might never hit the board. It looks like a fun card, but A) it's super inconsistent, B) it's bad in the matchups I need it to be at its best in and C) the competition is way to fierce for it to have a legit shot. I have a couple Dimir cards in my on deck binder that I think are significantly better than it is, so it just has no chance. Against aggro, they just race you after you spend your 3rd turn failing to impact the board (or they can just attack it down and kill it depending on what you flip with it) and against control, their creature count is too low to reliably hit anything with it anyways. Against midrange, they'll be able to profitably attack it down and you might get lucky and get a creature you can use after having it "suspended" for a turn or two, but that doesn't seem like a solid investment for a 3cc multicolor card. It might be solid in the control mirror if they have a high enough creature count for it to activate, bust most of the time I'd rather resolve a threat that can have a more immediate impact on the game and apply pressure to my opponent right away. It's really an easy card to pass on, especially since Dimir is simply too tight. I think it might be okay as the #9 slot in UB, but that's resurved for super-huge cubes. And lastly, including a card that nobody in my group wants to play is a bad idea to begin with.
And I hope to see the Heroic trigger on the Hero be relevant at least once. That would be such a great story!
Edit: More to the point on Ashiok, it doesn't play in any of the UB decks we make. It's a good UB midrange card for the midrange mirror or for the vs control matchup (assuming they have a reasonable number of targets in their deck, which they don't always have). We play 4 decks in Dimir: Tempo, Control, the Artifact.dec and Reanimator. In Tempo, the card is terrible. It doesn't apply pressure on my opponent or develop my board to increase the efficiency of my other attackers. In control, it is decent against midrange, but I don't need control cards that are good against midrange. I need help against aggro, and this isn't it. In the Artifact.dec, it's useless. It doesn't do what the rest of the deck wants to do, nor does it contribute to the artifact theme. And in Reanimator, it's a dead card. It's a decent midrange 'walker for the reasons I mentioned above, but ...we don't play UB midrange decks, so that doesn't help us. So you see, it's not that Ashiok is bad, necessarily, it's that it's both unneeded and unwanted in the types of Dimir decks that see play at our tables. I hope that clarifies things a bit.
Good review. I did notice that it's a very rare/mythic heavy top 20 (only 3 non-rares) which might possibly be why I'm somewhat disappointed with this set (from a Peasant perspective). I wonder how previous set top 20s compare on that count. Most of the un/commons in Theros look like they will be interesting in their own limited environment (Bestow, Heroic, various combat tricks etc.) but are pretty underwhelming in other contexts.
Thanks. Ya, I don't really know how the set will fare for C/Ubes, but it's a damn-fine set for regular lists!
I'm sort of looking at it as delayed payback for Gatecrash really (which was stonking great for CU/bes and pretty lackluster for regular ones if memory serves).
Haha, ya. Gatecrash was a bit of a dud for regular lists, but had some solid C/U stuff for sure.
Great review as always wtwlf, thanks! I always stop by your threads when a new set comes out to pick up on any cards I missed during spoiler season, it's a great help!
The only thing I'd note is that you've left Ashen Rider off your list - I'm currently running Angel of Despair in my Orzhov section, and Ashen Rider is an awesome replacement (looping this guy with recurring nightmare just seems gross). Any love for the card, or do you rank other Orzhov cards (like Obzedat?) above it?
I think you and your group are 100% wrong on Ashiok. Several members of this board have confirmed it is a strong PW in testing. I strongly advise tossing it in a draft to find out for yourself.
Great review as always wtwlf, thanks! I always stop by your threads when a new set comes out to pick up on any cards I missed during spoiler season, it's a great help!
The only thing I'd note is that you've left Ashen Rider off your list - I'm currently running Angel of Despair in my Orzhov section, and Ashen Rider is an awesome replacement (looping this guy with recurring nightmare just seems gross). Any love for the card, or do you rank other Orzhov cards (like Obzedat?) above it?
Glad the review was helpful!
There are two problems with the Rider. First and foremost, I think the competition is too steep in WB. Second, I think the 8cmc pigeonholes it into being a reanimation exclusive creature. Even though the effect is better than Angel of Despair, the extra mana in the cost really prevents me from using it as a control finisher, and makes it reanimator-only. I really think it's an EDH card.
I think you and your group are 100% wrong on Ashiok. Several members of this board have confirmed it is a strong PW in testing. I strongly advise tossing it in a draft to find out for yourself.
The problem with Ashiok isn't that it's not good, it's that it doesn't go into the kinds of UB decks we create in our drafts. As I said above, it's a very solid UB midrange card for the mirror match and combatting control, but it's not a card we want for tempo, control, reanimator or the artifact.dec ...which makes up pretty much every Dimir deck we draft. Plus, we don't have any cards we're willing to replace it for.
But anyways, thanks for the feedback. I'm always interested in testing cards to see how they play out (can't hurt to proxy, right?) and if I can convince my playgroup to give her a shot, we'll see what she can do.
I don't think anyone's saying that Scry 2 is worth a card. Only that the 1/3 body for 2 mana with Scry 2 attached is worth running for blue decks that want help against aggro.
And I agree about Ashiok. If me and my group are 100% wrong because we don't like it and don't want to run it, does it mean that he and his playgroup are 100% wrong for excluding every card I like that they don't run? It does seem like a rude assumption.
I hadn't really planned on it because it's such a small set.
If I have the time to write one, I will. But with a 6 month old at home, time for writing articles is scarce.
lol yeah, and after looking at the cards it maybe like a top 2 or 3
P.S. your cube is what got me into building my cube. My current cube is 720 cards, but I use your as a base and then add the other cards to give it my own flare. I do not really have the time to test cards as much as other people do, so being able to use your advice and cube list is a huge help.
thank you for everything that you find time to do!!
one of these times i really need to find time to post photos of my cube...
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P.S. your cube is what got me into building my cube. My current cube is 720 cards, but I use your as a base and then add the other cards to give it my own flare. I do not really have the time to test cards as much as other people do, so being able to use your advice and is a huge help.
thank you for everything that you find time to do!!
Thanks for the kind words; glad to hear it's been helpful! I will write an article for the next full set for sure, but I don't think I'll get around to an "official" Commander 2013 one. But maybe I will, just for the hell of it. Writing them is fun.
I'd like to single out your comment on Heliod's Spear. Your comment that the upgrade from Glorious Anthem makes up for its weakness as a "do nothing" card really got my attention. Nice point!
Its definitely interesting that many of these 20 are almost strictly better upgrades of existing cards, 3 of which are already cube cards (Anthem, Lion, Pup) (Anthem/Spear is not really strictly - as the Spear is an artifact)
For me I will definitely include the top 4 in my 450.
The rest I will have to wait and see; I will be catching up on my missing Innistrad cards and will be waiting for the post rotation price drop.
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Some thoughts:
I think Fireblast is really, really good. I would look elsewhere for cuts before taking that. Perhaps one of the weaker Chandras? (Nalaar/Firebrand)
I don't think I'd cut either Karmic or Parallax in white. Maybe Knight of the Meadowgrain?
Ob-Nixilis seems the most cuttable in black.
Wall of Blossoms is probably the most expendable of your green cards. I could also see losing the Boa.
Dungeon Geists seems the most cuttable in blue
I would play the temple over the checkland any day.
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If it were any other combination, I would've been more conservative with my ranking of Augury. But it's Izzet. So this card will see lots of play, and probably for a while.
Thanks!
These all look fine to me.
The only reason I'd suggest the Wave be the cut here is because the white 4cc noncreature slot is simply jammed with great cards.
It would be between Phoenix and Charge for me too. Every time we played Charge, I always wanted it to be another threat or another burn spell instead of what it actually is; maybe this is a chance to make that happen!
I would cut the Reaver, simply because there's so many bomb 4-drops in the cube.
Vorapede is the only one of those cards I don't run anymore, so that might be the cut, if you have enough other good green 5-drops, that is.
Most of those cards look like okay cuts, except for Cryptologist (cube needs looting still) and Leviathan (cube needs Tinker/Reanimation targets still). I personally would cut Geists or Jace first (4cmc!) if it were up to me. Standstill is really good in blue tempo, but that deck is a monster even without the dedicated support, so throwing in a more universally playable blue card might benefit more decks.
Yes. Yes I do.
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Pretty much gonna include the top 10 on the list in my cube and omenspeaker. Pretty much in line with my thinking.. I think i like the Whip of Erebos a bit more and probably would of placed Fleecemane in the top 20 as well.
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The only unfortunate thing is that we didn't get a 2/1 for G as I had thought we might after the other 3, who are all windmill slams into my cube.
Glad you liked the review.
I can't see Fleecemane cracking the top 20. The combination has at least 10 better cards in it. And even if you focussed on including cards for the sole purpose of bolstering WG aggro, it's still only the 6th best card. And that would be if you ignored all the other better WG cards for other decks.
Once red gets the token support cards that I want, Purphoros will be a monster of a card.
I also really wanted a green aggro dude, but we'll just have to wait. If the rest of the block is as aggro-focussed as the first set was, we'll have a ton of playable stuff from this block going in.
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Just wondering did you ever test he/she/it? A lot of people don't like him on paper, but he has been freaking amazing in testing.
also, how sick of a story would doom blading your tormented hero for the win be.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
My group did a fantastic job of convincing me that Ashiok has no place in my cube, so I can leave it out. Their resounding opinion that it's complete trash really just confirmed my suspicions. We'd much rather just play a card that we know what it'll do than playing a 3cc gold random creature with suspend that might never hit the board. It looks like a fun card, but A) it's super inconsistent, B) it's bad in the matchups I need it to be at its best in and C) the competition is way to fierce for it to have a legit shot. I have a couple Dimir cards in my on deck binder that I think are significantly better than it is, so it just has no chance. Against aggro, they just race you after you spend your 3rd turn failing to impact the board (or they can just attack it down and kill it depending on what you flip with it) and against control, their creature count is too low to reliably hit anything with it anyways. Against midrange, they'll be able to profitably attack it down and you might get lucky and get a creature you can use after having it "suspended" for a turn or two, but that doesn't seem like a solid investment for a 3cc multicolor card. It might be solid in the control mirror if they have a high enough creature count for it to activate, bust most of the time I'd rather resolve a threat that can have a more immediate impact on the game and apply pressure to my opponent right away. It's really an easy card to pass on, especially since Dimir is simply too tight. I think it might be okay as the #9 slot in UB, but that's resurved for super-huge cubes. And lastly, including a card that nobody in my group wants to play is a bad idea to begin with.
And I hope to see the Heroic trigger on the Hero be relevant at least once. That would be such a great story!
Edit: More to the point on Ashiok, it doesn't play in any of the UB decks we make. It's a good UB midrange card for the midrange mirror or for the vs control matchup (assuming they have a reasonable number of targets in their deck, which they don't always have). We play 4 decks in Dimir: Tempo, Control, the Artifact.dec and Reanimator. In Tempo, the card is terrible. It doesn't apply pressure on my opponent or develop my board to increase the efficiency of my other attackers. In control, it is decent against midrange, but I don't need control cards that are good against midrange. I need help against aggro, and this isn't it. In the Artifact.dec, it's useless. It doesn't do what the rest of the deck wants to do, nor does it contribute to the artifact theme. And in Reanimator, it's a dead card. It's a decent midrange 'walker for the reasons I mentioned above, but ...we don't play UB midrange decks, so that doesn't help us. So you see, it's not that Ashiok is bad, necessarily, it's that it's both unneeded and unwanted in the types of Dimir decks that see play at our tables. I hope that clarifies things a bit.
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Thanks. Ya, I don't really know how the set will fare for C/Ubes, but it's a damn-fine set for regular lists!
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Haha, ya. Gatecrash was a bit of a dud for regular lists, but had some solid C/U stuff for sure.
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The only thing I'd note is that you've left Ashen Rider off your list - I'm currently running Angel of Despair in my Orzhov section, and Ashen Rider is an awesome replacement (looping this guy with recurring nightmare just seems gross). Any love for the card, or do you rank other Orzhov cards (like Obzedat?) above it?
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Glad you liked the review!
I don't see what's not to like about Firedrinker; he's a strictly better version of an important cube staple.
Glad the review was helpful!
There are two problems with the Rider. First and foremost, I think the competition is too steep in WB. Second, I think the 8cmc pigeonholes it into being a reanimation exclusive creature. Even though the effect is better than Angel of Despair, the extra mana in the cost really prevents me from using it as a control finisher, and makes it reanimator-only. I really think it's an EDH card.
The problem with Ashiok isn't that it's not good, it's that it doesn't go into the kinds of UB decks we create in our drafts. As I said above, it's a very solid UB midrange card for the mirror match and combatting control, but it's not a card we want for tempo, control, reanimator or the artifact.dec ...which makes up pretty much every Dimir deck we draft. Plus, we don't have any cards we're willing to replace it for.
But anyways, thanks for the feedback. I'm always interested in testing cards to see how they play out (can't hurt to proxy, right?) and if I can convince my playgroup to give her a shot, we'll see what she can do.
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And I agree about Ashiok. If me and my group are 100% wrong because we don't like it and don't want to run it, does it mean that he and his playgroup are 100% wrong for excluding every card I like that they don't run? It does seem like a rude assumption.
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You're most welcome. Glad you find them helpful!
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please!!!
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I hadn't really planned on it because it's such a small set.
If I have the time to write one, I will. But with a 6 month old at home, time for writing articles is scarce.
But here's a spoiler:
09 Sudden Demise
08 Witch Hunt
07 Tempt with Vengeance
06 Curse of Predation
05 Ophiomancer
04 Curse of Shallow Graves
03 Unexpectedly Absent
02 Toxic Deluge
01 True-Name Nemesis
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lol yeah, and after looking at the cards it maybe like a top 2 or 3
P.S. your cube is what got me into building my cube. My current cube is 720 cards, but I use your as a base and then add the other cards to give it my own flare. I do not really have the time to test cards as much as other people do, so being able to use your advice and cube list is a huge help.
thank you for everything that you find time to do!!
one of these times i really need to find time to post photos of my cube...
You can also view it here at Cubetutor <---- please draft my cube!!
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Whoa there ...C13 is a sick set for the cube. I think most medium sized cubes will be playing like 5-8 cards from the set (see the edited list above).
Thanks for the kind words; glad to hear it's been helpful! I will write an article for the next full set for sure, but I don't think I'll get around to an "official" Commander 2013 one. But maybe I will, just for the hell of it. Writing them is fun.
You definitely should!
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Yeah, I will have to do that now!
Here is a photo of the outside of box as a warm up. I'll try to find time this weekend.
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