Ah, Venser. Three times in my cube and I was glad to finally be shot of him. Venser not protecting himself is not the issue. The issue is that he doesn't do anything to help you win the game, at all, without another card to enable him. That's just not good enough for four drops, let alone five drops. The article largely discusses cards that are beneficial to bounce in and out of play. We're all well aware of their existence, but for the five mana, I'd rather invest in another more reliable five drop whose performance isn't reliant on my current board state. On a negative board, Venser is just not going to help. On the other hand, his - ability is damn good in an aggressive deck; however, I'm not usually going to play a 5 mana card in that deck, and if I do, there are better choices. Even at four mana, I would still not run him in all likelihood. There are enough potent four-drops that aren't dead when I'm behind and aren't contingent on me already having a value target in play. And this isn't even starting to consider the very strong competition in U/W, which is pretty high since RtR block. I would also probably run Momentary Blink ahead of the 'walker; it can be used to protect my creature and is arguably more cost-effective. And for the record, blink is one of my favourite mechanics and I would give a kidney for a repeatable cubeable effect, say, on a creature.
The pick there would be either Tinker or Vampiric Tutor for me, depending on how I am feeling.
The Mirrodin review was nice. It's fun to look back on old sets like this. There are some good cards in amongst the Standard brokenness.
I like Venser, but I think he's currently the worst of the 20 planeswalkers in the cube that I run. I could see him getting the chop in a near-future expansion.
On a negative board, Venser is just not going to help.
I can't agree on this being a blanket statement... Blinking creature Venser, Snapcaster Mage, Man-o-War, or Aether Adept can help you out. Blade Splicer puts in another 3/3 first striker on the board... Lone Missionary or Wall of Omens buys time. You can even move your Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters, Treachery, etc on to a jucier target. If you're able to splash other colours it gets even better.
Venser is a great build around me card (you do have to be actively looking for blink targets and fixing) and is hella fun to play.
I can't agree on this being a blanket statement... Blinking creature Venser, Snapcaster Mage, Man-o-War, or Aether Adept can help you out. Blade Splicer puts in another 3/3 first striker on the board... Lone Missionary or Wall of Omens buys time. You can even move your Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters, Treachery, etc on to a jucier target. If you're able to splash other colours it gets even better.
Venser is a great build around me card (you do have to be actively looking for blink targets and fixing) and is hella fun to play.
Sure, and I accept his synergy with all of these cards. I understand that he gets value by blinking stuff to buy time or gain card advantage. But how many five drops don't do anything for you after a sweeper or timely kill spell? Fun it may be, and definitely a decent build-around, but it doesn't satisfy a key criterion for my four drops: it must be of some use in games where I am severely behind. And it costs five, in two colours no less! I can't afford a slot in deck construction at that cost that is only of benefit when I have some kind of board presence already*. Even on many slightly or medium developed boards, he's not giving me tremendous value. If I do have a creature - not a total guarantee in a traditional control pairing - it may well not be an ETB creature that I can abuse, or is one that is an underwhelming blink target. Sometimes I'll be able to blink something for awesomeness. However, the number of times where I'd rather have any 'standard' five-drop, which is less of a risk to include, far outweighed the times where he offered me considerably more value than another option would have. All three times that I ran him.
*Zegana is perhaps the exception to this, and I'm not exactly overwhelmed with that card. Admittedly, she only needs a 2/2 or 3/3 when she ETB to be decent value.
Fun it may be, and definitely a decent build-around, but it doesn't satisfy a key criterion for my four drops: it must be of some use in games where I am severely behind. And it costs five, in two colours no less! I can't afford a slot in deck construction at that cost that is only of benefit when I have some kind of board presence already*.
People still run Opposition, Parallax Tide, Jace AoT, Tezz 1.0, etc... all of these cards only benefit you when you have some kind of board presence already... though all can get you back in a game depending on what's on the board (like Venser can).
Either way, you've tried Venser 3x to no success, I get that. Different strokes for different folks.
People still run Opposition, Parallax Tide, Jace AoT, Tezz 1.0, etc... all of these cards only benefit you when you have some kind of board presence already... though all can get you back in a game depending on what's on the board (like Venser can).
Either way, you've tried Venser 3x to no success, I get that. Different strokes for different folks.
Actually, Jace and Tezz don't need other cards down already to provide value. As for the other two, they're 4 mana instead of five mana, they don't require a specific niche type of card to get value from, and more importantly, they're only one color.
Actually, Jace and Tezz don't need other cards down already to provide value.
I mentioned those two in response to the comment that I quoted. It must be of some use in games where one is severely behind and only having a benefit when one has some kind of board presence already. If Jace and Tezz meet this requirement then Venser does as well by making your creatures unblockable.
As for the other two, they're 4 mana instead of five mana, they don't require a specific niche type of card to get value from, and more importantly, they're only one color.
I don't disagree. I pointed them out in response to the comment I quoted which was that Venser doesn't satisfy a key criterion for four drops.
I wouldn't call ETB/CIP creatures specific niche type cards... there's a large number of them in cube.
I mentioned those two in response to the comment that I quoted. It must be of some use in games where one is severely behind and only having a benefit when one has some kind of board presence already. If Jace and Tezz meet this requirement then Venser does as well by making your creatures unblockable.
But even if you had no creatures, both of Jace's abilities can be relevant, and without other artifacts, Tezz can still tutor them up. Venser quite literally does nothing significant without other cards.
This is true... Venser does require you to build around him and you definitely need a good number of ETB/CIP guys to make him worthwhile... and if you don't have access to a good number he'll be a dud (not having access to X makes a lot of build around me cards duds though). That said he does require some finesse to draft and play, but his ceiling is quite high for us (blinking something even just once can be a ton of value depending on board state of course) why I'm such a huge fan.
I don't disagree. I think he can be very good in the right deck. But I think that for a 5cc multicolor card, the complaints about his limited applications are valid. Being a 5-mana gold card is restriction enough; combining it with both archetype and board restrictions make it a rough card a lot of the time. It can be very strong when things come together for him, but he's easily the most cuttable planeswalker left in my cube.
I've been anti-Venser for a long time until I got him in a deck with Mana Vault. I cast him on turn 2 three different times and it was insane. I also cast him with Mana Vault out in the late game and it was still awesome. Though this may be more of a statement of how awesome Mana Vault is than how good Venser is. I also did this with Ral Zarek & it's so so sweet. Blinking Treachery to untap your lands to keep up countermagic is also quite good.
All that being said I wouldn't be opposed to cutting Venser & I definitely rank him as the #4 U/W card.
As for the P1p1 it would depend on how I was feeling & who was sitting on my right. In the abstract I would take either Vamp Tutor or Wrath. I love Wraths a lot & wouldn't be opposed to first-picking one & moving into some sort of white control deck. Sadly Vindicate is in the pack as well and I've really grown to enjoy WB control recently. I may just say "screw it" and take Vindicate as it's one of the most powerful cards in the pack.
While Venser isn't the best on a blank/negative board, his ultimate is something you have to not let happen, so I think he's fine if you play him, +2 and bounce a land, and leave some blue mana open feigning or actually having a counter. While they're attacking him down, gaining you tons of life, you can draw into whatever you have that's amazing with Venser and work from there.
While Venser isn't the best on a blank/negative board, his ultimate is something you have to not let happen, so I think he's fine if you play him, +2 and bounce a land, and leave some blue mana open feigning or actually having a counter. While they're attacking him down, gaining you tons of life, you can draw into whatever you have that's amazing with Venser and work from there.
But if they can't kill you, you have a venser ready to go off with the ultimate.
It takes two consecutive turns of activations to get him into ultimate range. So he's not ready to go off with his ultimate if you activate on a blank board and pass. They have 2 combat steps to attack through your empty board directly at you before you have a chance to go ultimate with him.
It takes two consecutive turns of activations to get him into ultimate range. So he's not ready to go off with his ultimate if you activate on a blank board and pass. They have 2 combat steps to attack through your empty board directly at you before you have a chance to go ultimate with him.
Yeah, it could go either way if you play him into that board state. If they attack you and you draw one of your bouncy things, or if they attack him and you draw not much, then you're gaining back time to stabilize. Giving your opponent and opportunity to mess up can be beneficial when you're dealing with something as volatile for your opponent as a planeswalker. Venser is one of the best for this since he gets to his ultimate relatively quickly and, in the nature of the decks he's found, can use his +2 to get a 2 for 1 off of the random Man-o-Wars/Aether Adepts/Riftwings/etc that you can draw into during those turns.
What I'm saying, is that you don't often get to run 5-drops into already advantageous board states. If you're behind, and you spend your 5th turn playing a no-impact spell that's going to tick up loyalty and flicker a land, they're going to attack you and kill you. The fact that you have to do this twice before he can go ultimate doesn't help his cause. When the board is even, and you have an ETB target ready for abuse, he's great. But if your flicker target is dead, and you're behind on the board, it's one of the worst (if not the worst) 5-mana investment in the cube.
Decks that run Venser need to have a good number of ETB/CIP creatures for him to be worthwhile. If you aren't able to draft enough of them, you shouldn't run Venser. On a straight up empty board yes, Venser is a dud. But so is Sarkhan Vol (who is the #2 best Gruul card imho)...
Venser adds a lot of synergy to the decks that he is played in (bounce/blink) adding a lot of value not just to the obvious creatures but to artifacts (ie. mana vault) and enchantments (ie. faith's fetters, treachery) as people have mentioned. He resets Gemstone Mine and other Planeswalkers etc. Venser is a straight build around me card, and should be treated as such when drafting (grab fixing, grab blink targets).
Back to the empty board: More often than not (at least over here) players will not spend removal on a 2/1 or 2/2 ETB/CIP creature that's already done its thing (for sure there are times where we would, in response to shenanigans like Portal, Shard, Vat, etc or to clear the path for the kill but in most cases we won't)... and more often than not Venser has a good target to blink, and when he does, his ceiling is high. Worst case scenario you play him on an empty board, he does nothing and you die. Best case scenario you play him with Thragtusk and watch your opponent's jaw hit the ground. We've seen Venser go to work too many times to not play him in our cube.
*Yeah Thragtusk is an extreme but there really are a load of other juicy targets that can bruise an opponent's chin and/or morale.
On a straight up empty board yes, Venser is a dud. But so is Sarkhan Vol (who is the #2 best Gruul card imho)...
Actually, Sarkhan's Threaten ability can still be decent on its own. So it's only a true dud if both player's boards are empty. In which case, he's almost guaranteed to go ultimate, and do it a turn faster (and be far more devastating) than Venser's.
Sure. Well, if I prefer my 5-drops (especially multicolor ones) to be at their best when I really need help struggling with a bad board. Venser is the opposite of that.
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The pick there would be either Tinker or Vampiric Tutor for me, depending on how I am feeling.
The Mirrodin review was nice. It's fun to look back on old sets like this. There are some good cards in amongst the Standard brokenness.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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I can't agree on this being a blanket statement... Blinking creature Venser, Snapcaster Mage, Man-o-War, or Aether Adept can help you out. Blade Splicer puts in another 3/3 first striker on the board... Lone Missionary or Wall of Omens buys time. You can even move your Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters, Treachery, etc on to a jucier target. If you're able to splash other colours it gets even better.
Venser is a great build around me card (you do have to be actively looking for blink targets and fixing) and is hella fun to play.
Sure, and I accept his synergy with all of these cards. I understand that he gets value by blinking stuff to buy time or gain card advantage. But how many five drops don't do anything for you after a sweeper or timely kill spell? Fun it may be, and definitely a decent build-around, but it doesn't satisfy a key criterion for my four drops: it must be of some use in games where I am severely behind. And it costs five, in two colours no less! I can't afford a slot in deck construction at that cost that is only of benefit when I have some kind of board presence already*. Even on many slightly or medium developed boards, he's not giving me tremendous value. If I do have a creature - not a total guarantee in a traditional control pairing - it may well not be an ETB creature that I can abuse, or is one that is an underwhelming blink target. Sometimes I'll be able to blink something for awesomeness. However, the number of times where I'd rather have any 'standard' five-drop, which is less of a risk to include, far outweighed the times where he offered me considerably more value than another option would have. All three times that I ran him.
*Zegana is perhaps the exception to this, and I'm not exactly overwhelmed with that card. Admittedly, she only needs a 2/2 or 3/3 when she ETB to be decent value.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
People still run Opposition, Parallax Tide, Jace AoT, Tezz 1.0, etc... all of these cards only benefit you when you have some kind of board presence already... though all can get you back in a game depending on what's on the board (like Venser can).
Either way, you've tried Venser 3x to no success, I get that. Different strokes for different folks.
Actually, Jace and Tezz don't need other cards down already to provide value. As for the other two, they're 4 mana instead of five mana, they don't require a specific niche type of card to get value from, and more importantly, they're only one color.
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I mentioned those two in response to the comment that I quoted. It must be of some use in games where one is severely behind and only having a benefit when one has some kind of board presence already. If Jace and Tezz meet this requirement then Venser does as well by making your creatures unblockable.
I don't disagree. I pointed them out in response to the comment I quoted which was that Venser doesn't satisfy a key criterion for four drops.
I wouldn't call ETB/CIP creatures specific niche type cards... there's a large number of them in cube.
But even if you had no creatures, both of Jace's abilities can be relevant, and without other artifacts, Tezz can still tutor them up. Venser quite literally does nothing significant without other cards.
There is, but you don't always have access to a ton of them. And you need them to be in play when he resolves too.
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All that being said I wouldn't be opposed to cutting Venser & I definitely rank him as the #4 U/W card.
As for the P1p1 it would depend on how I was feeling & who was sitting on my right. In the abstract I would take either Vamp Tutor or Wrath. I love Wraths a lot & wouldn't be opposed to first-picking one & moving into some sort of white control deck. Sadly Vindicate is in the pack as well and I've really grown to enjoy WB control recently. I may just say "screw it" and take Vindicate as it's one of the most powerful cards in the pack.
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Actually, they just attack you and kill you.
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But if they can't kill you, you have a venser ready to go off with the ultimate. And you still get to draw a card every turn.
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It takes two consecutive turns of activations to get him into ultimate range. So he's not ready to go off with his ultimate if you activate on a blank board and pass. They have 2 combat steps to attack through your empty board directly at you before you have a chance to go ultimate with him.
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Yeah, it could go either way if you play him into that board state. If they attack you and you draw one of your bouncy things, or if they attack him and you draw not much, then you're gaining back time to stabilize. Giving your opponent and opportunity to mess up can be beneficial when you're dealing with something as volatile for your opponent as a planeswalker. Venser is one of the best for this since he gets to his ultimate relatively quickly and, in the nature of the decks he's found, can use his +2 to get a 2 for 1 off of the random Man-o-Wars/Aether Adepts/Riftwings/etc that you can draw into during those turns.
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Venser adds a lot of synergy to the decks that he is played in (bounce/blink) adding a lot of value not just to the obvious creatures but to artifacts (ie. mana vault) and enchantments (ie. faith's fetters, treachery) as people have mentioned. He resets Gemstone Mine and other Planeswalkers etc. Venser is a straight build around me card, and should be treated as such when drafting (grab fixing, grab blink targets).
Back to the empty board: More often than not (at least over here) players will not spend removal on a 2/1 or 2/2 ETB/CIP creature that's already done its thing (for sure there are times where we would, in response to shenanigans like Portal, Shard, Vat, etc or to clear the path for the kill but in most cases we won't)... and more often than not Venser has a good target to blink, and when he does, his ceiling is high. Worst case scenario you play him on an empty board, he does nothing and you die. Best case scenario you play him with Thragtusk and watch your opponent's jaw hit the ground. We've seen Venser go to work too many times to not play him in our cube.
*Yeah Thragtusk is an extreme but there really are a load of other juicy targets that can bruise an opponent's chin and/or morale.
Actually, Sarkhan's Threaten ability can still be decent on its own. So it's only a true dud if both player's boards are empty. In which case, he's almost guaranteed to go ultimate, and do it a turn faster (and be far more devastating) than Venser's.
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