I wouldn't cube with a 2/2 for B that can't be played until your third turn, which is basically what Vile Rebirth is.
The possibility of graveyard hosing is cool, but it's not why you would actually play the card other than against reanimator decks (which generally don't need hindered in the first place).
Adding extra value to your removal isn't really an argument for the card, as it would almost always be better if it were just a 2/2 for B that didn't require you to RFG a creature. You're not "adding value" to removal inasmuch as it's making removal more important to your deck as it will sometimes be required to even use the card, so that's actually a downside.
And the sorcery thing isn't a big deal, getting a 1/1 on the swingback with your 2/2 token isn't as big a blowout as Unearthing a Man-O-War and bouncing their 3/3 token or something similar.
TL;DR - I would rather choose the card that has a much larger upside against non-reanimator decks AND can be cycled away if it's useless.
I would prefer Vile in aggro. I can add to my team instead of having to replace one of mine that has died.
Quote from Blimpy »
And the sorcery thing isn't a big deal
The fact that it's an instant is quite relevant, actually. They plan their attack based on what they see before the swing. Being able to flash in a Zombie and wreck their 2-3 drop in combat is a nice play that Vile Rebirth can enable.
Black flash creatures FTW.
And exiling creatures from their graveyard is valuable against more than just dedicated reanimator.
I would prefer Vile in aggro. I can add to my team instead of having to replace one of mine that has died.
I'd play both, but I think Unearth is the superior card because the upside of getting back a three drop will be more relevant more often than getting a 2/2 that you couldn't have otherwise (i.e., removing their guy when you couldn't return one of your own).
I have next to no faith in vile rebirth. I almost certainly wouldn't play a 2/2 flash for B that cant be played until a creature died. I wouldn't play ashcoat bear in black and the comparisons in an average case scenario arent so different. At the end of the day, that's what you end up with, right? Not to mention that a token is less reliable.
It's just a low impact card, unlike unearth which brings back serious threats at a discount. When vile rebirth is adding to your team (when his man dies and yours doesnt) either you're winning like crazy or you had a slow start with a hand you shouldn't keep. Either way a bear on layaway likely wont change the outcome. Unearth, on the other hand, turns games around and is muuuch better late in the game.
Great review, and your expectations pretty much mirror my own, although it's good to hear Liliana was better than expected. Still, I won't be running it at 300ish. I think you were a little too hard on Crimson Muckwader. It's a 2 mana 3/2 creature, and the regen is really just gravy (but good gravy). I was thinking about cutting Terminate for it in my third B/R slot - just another aggro guy versus just another removal spell.
Ajani looks nuts in cube, so can't wait to play him.
I have next to no faith in vile rebirth. I almost certainly wouldn't play a 2/2 flash for B that cant be played until a creature died. I wouldn't play ashcoat bear in black and the comparisons in an average case scenario arent so different. At the end of the day, that's what you end up with, right? Not to mention that a token is less reliable.
It's just a low impact card, unlike unearth which brings back serious threats at a discount. When vile rebirth is adding to your team (when his man dies and yours doesnt) either you're winning like crazy or you had a slow start with a hand you shouldn't keep. Either way a bear on layaway likely wont change the outcome. Unearth, on the other hand, turns games around and is muuuch better late in the game.
Yep, these are pretty much exactly the reasons I like Unearth more.
Ya, an instant speed Isamaru would be better ...is that what we're debating here?
Unearth would also be a lot better if it could target both graveyards, but it can't. We can only debate what's actually printed on the cards.
Did you really miss my point? If it was what you're making out to be (an instant speed 2/2 for B that adds to your team and provides all those other benefits, etc) it definitely would be better, but it's not that.
I didn't mention anything about Unearth being able to target both graveyards, all I stated was how it generally plays out. I think you have wishful thinking a lot more on your side.
Did you miss the part where I said the RFG clause is far more of a downside than an upside?
I prefer Vile Rebirth. You prefer Unearth. We've both stated our reasons. Is that enough?
Yeah? Enough for what? An agreement of disagreement? It's not like that's ever not an option if you want to stop talking.
Great review, and your expectations pretty much mirror my own, although it's good to hear Liliana was better than expected. Still, I won't be running it at 300ish. I think you were a little too hard on Crimson Muckwader. It's a 2 mana 3/2 creature, and the regen is really just gravy (but good gravy). I was thinking about cutting Terminate for it in my third B/R slot - just another aggro guy versus just another removal spell.
Ajani looks nuts in cube, so can't wait to play him.
I'm glad you liked the review!
Muckwader's a solid dude, but there's no way I'd play him as one of my only 3 Rakdos cards. Not without regenerating for B or 2 life or something.
And ya, Ajani looks so very good.
Quote from Blimpy »
An agreement of disagreement?
Exactly. I've heard your points, and they're valid. You've heard my points and they're valid. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I like being able to exile a creature from my opponent's graveyard they have the potential to get value from. I like having an instant-speed creature in black with another relevant upside (even if that upside can sometimes be a liability, as you outlined). I like being able to add to my total threat count instead of relying on having a target in my own 'yard. And I like playing proactively by playing a card that gets value from my own removal instead of playing reactively by trying to get value from my opponent's removal. Vile Rebirth does all of these things. Unearth does none of these things. So while Unearth gets me back a higher quality creature, it doesn't do any of the things that I actually like about Vile Rebirth.
I like being able to exile a creature from my opponent's graveyard they have the potential to get value from. I like having an instant-speed creature in black with another relevant upside (even if that upside can sometimes be a liability, as you outlined). I like being able to add to my total threat count instead of relying on having a target in my own 'yard. And I like playing proactively by playing a card that gets value from my own removal instead of playing reactively by trying to get value from my opponent's removal. Vile Rebirth does all of these things. Unearth does none of these things. So while Unearth gets me back a higher quality creature, it doesn't do any of the things that I actually like about Vile Rebirth.
For what it's worth - in almost every situation, I like Unearth far more than I like Vile Rebirth.
With Vile Rebirth, you aren't "Being able" to exile a creature as much as you are "waiting to be able to" exile a creature. In cube, 2 power dudes with CMC=1 are best early in the game (as early as possible, in fact). Vile Rebirth does not fit that bill AT ALL, unless you are T1 Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, hit a dude, Vile Rebirth. That play seems sweet, actually, but is far too narrow.
So, since you can't play the 2 power 1 mana dude on T1 (or even reliably before T3 or 4), then it doesn't even count as a creature in your deck (or cube, for a similar reason Kird Ape counts as RG - That's where it is best/most often used). Vile Rebirth is almost never going to be used as an early aggro creature, so we then move it to the 1 mana black spells slot, which nullifies your "2/2 for B creature with flash", because throwing Serra Avenger's drawback on that card doesn't make it close to playable.
Because of reasons I've outlined, I don't think this card adds to your threat count unless you are in WB Tokens - only in that deck does adding a 2/2 on T3 or 4 actually effect the board in any relevant way. The X/B Control decks wouldn't run that card, and I don't see B mid-rangy decks wanting it either when they want to be casting a Sewer Nemesis or a Graveborn Muse (or a wrath) on T4.
Proactive? There is nothing proactive about Vile Rebirth. Proactive is Gravecrawler/Sarcomancy/other 2 power one drops that actively put pressure on your opponents in the early game when 2 power dudes are actually relevant. Vile Rebirth is exactly a reactive card, ESPECIALLY since you have to have already done work of some sort to get a creature in their graveyard (Whether it be with a removal spell, a discard spell, or a trade in combat). And sure, in combat, Vile Rebirth can give you an extra little edge, but only after you've already done the necessary work to put something in their graveyard. In aggro v. aggro, trading creatures usually happens early on, but even still, the earliest you can possibly play this would be EOT their T2 while you're on the draw, after trading your 1-drop with their 1-drop in combat. (Or if you REALLY wanted to run this 2/2 out there, T2 on the play you could Dismember/Snuff Out their creature and then play it...).
Unearth, on the other hand, is a very different card than Vile Rebirth, but comparing them is actually fair, since they are both black spells (not creatures) that cost B and affect graveyards. Now, in the black aggro decks, which is more relevant:
Vile Rebirth - costs B, has to exile a creature from your opponents yard (which means you've already spent at least 1 card to get one there), gives you a 2/2 no earlier (most of the time) than turn 3, fairly niche combat trick.
Unearth - costs B, nullifies some amount of work that your opponent has done to get something of yours in the graveyard (or maybe you used a discard outlet), gets you 2 power aggro beater AT WORST, at best its a 3CMC value creature that only gains you even more value. And cycles if its that poor in whatever matchup you are in.
[I'm not mentioning Vile Rebirth's niche anti-reanimator/Persist/Undying utility, because that's only relevant against a handful of cards in cube, and doesn't make the card playable on its own right - its just an added bonus. (inb4 Vile Rebirth > Unearth because it removes the dude you just tried to Unearth lol)]
In aggro, it seems that Unearth is better in almost every situation.
In a midrange/control deck, Vile Rebirth does almost nothing relevant, since a 2/2 on T3 or later isn't actually a "threat". So, its nothing more than a chump blocker at that point that can only be played after a removal spell. Unearth, on the other hand, gets back some early value creature that you already got value off of and chump blocked with. So that card gives you another chump blocker (keeping you alive longer) along with whatever value you already got from the creature itself, and is at worst 1-for-1'ing your opponents removal spell/traded creature, and at best a 2/3/4-for-1, depending on what you reanimate (Kitchen Finks?). I don't ever see how Vile Rebirth is ever better than a 1-for-1:
If they trade a creature into yours, Vile Rebirth becomes an X-for-1, but you don't actually know what X is, because for X to be anything relevant, they have to be on a plan that involves reanimating/getting more value out of their dude, which is almost never more than 0-2 decks out of any given draft.
If you use a removal spell on their creature, Vile Rebirth becomes a .5/1-for-2 - They use the utility of their creature in the graveyard for your removal spell and Vile Rebirth (.5), or your 2/2 is actually putting pressure on them because of this in which case it becomes a 1-for-2.
That's all well and good, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on all points. I think it's better than Unearth. I think it's different than Unearth. For all the reasons it's different than Unearth, I prefer it. All those reasons I've said multiple times before.
Quote from mrmaul558 »
Vile Rebirth - costs B, has to exile a creature from your opponents yard
No it doesn't. It can be one of your dead creatures too. You can grab a creature of theirs that's dead to make an extra threat, or you can recover from their removal by replacing yours.
That's all well and good, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on all points. I think it's better than Unearth. I think it's different than Unearth. For all the reasons it's different than Unearth, I prefer it. All those reasons I've said multiple times before.
No it doesn't. It can be one of your dead creatures too. You can grab a creature of theirs that's dead to make an extra threat, or you can recover from their removal by replacing yours.
Touche. Forgot that you can replace your own dudes.
If you had to target their yard, I would 100% agree with that wall of text above. But because it can be a pseudo-Unearth AND all the functions of the Vile Rebirth against their targets, I give it the nod.
If you had to target their yard, I would 100% agree with that wall of text above. But because it can be a pseudo-Unearth AND all the functions of the Vile Rebirth against their targets, I give it the nod.
Yeah, I think I walloftext'd under that assumption. It is much closer now that I realize what the card actually does. Maybe I just like playing ETB dudes 2/3/4 times too much (which gives Unearth the slight nod IMO)
For someone who has never cubed in his life, this article alone makes me want to join any number of the various weekly cubes at my local gaming store.
That said, this review seems pretty spot-on for even Standard or Limited. I especially like your take on Disciple of Bolas and Knight of Infamy, cards which combo rather well with each other, in my opinion, especially with a few other exalted triggers in play. They allow you to sacrifice a small pinger, such as Tormented Soul, which suddenly is no longer small, and which gives you as many as 3-4 cards and life! If you add in the fact that the disciple no longer matters after his ETB triggers, his size makes him an extremely viable exalted swinger himself! Not to mention someone to trade with opposing attackers that doesn't give up an exalted trigger by dying. I may be overvaluing all of the cards I just mentioned, but that won't stop me from tring to make a competitive black/white exalted Disciple deck.
Found thi review again. After having lots of cube drafts id say thundermaw and thragtusk are the best 2 cards of the set for cube. Ajaninis best 20 but i wouldnt call him number 1.
Sorry to be one of those "M14 is not a good set" naysayers, but looking side by side at the m14 review next to the m13 one really puts into relief how much of a step down m14 is.
The possibility of graveyard hosing is cool, but it's not why you would actually play the card other than against reanimator decks (which generally don't need hindered in the first place).
Adding extra value to your removal isn't really an argument for the card, as it would almost always be better if it were just a 2/2 for B that didn't require you to RFG a creature. You're not "adding value" to removal inasmuch as it's making removal more important to your deck as it will sometimes be required to even use the card, so that's actually a downside.
And the sorcery thing isn't a big deal, getting a 1/1 on the swingback with your 2/2 token isn't as big a blowout as Unearthing a Man-O-War and bouncing their 3/3 token or something similar.
TL;DR - I would rather choose the card that has a much larger upside against non-reanimator decks AND can be cycled away if it's useless.
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So, every aggro deck?
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The fact that it's an instant is quite relevant, actually. They plan their attack based on what they see before the swing. Being able to flash in a Zombie and wreck their 2-3 drop in combat is a nice play that Vile Rebirth can enable.
Black flash creatures FTW.
And exiling creatures from their graveyard is valuable against more than just dedicated reanimator.
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I'd play both, but I think Unearth is the superior card because the upside of getting back a three drop will be more relevant more often than getting a 2/2 that you couldn't have otherwise (i.e., removing their guy when you couldn't return one of your own).
Sure, but it's a downside far more of the time than an upside. If it didn't require you to RFG something, the card would be much better.
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Ya, an instant speed Isamaru would be better ...is that what we're debating here?
Unearth would also be a lot better if it could target both graveyards, but it can't. We can only debate what's actually printed on the cards.
I prefer Vile Rebirth. You prefer Unearth. We've both stated our reasons. Is that enough?
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It's just a low impact card, unlike unearth which brings back serious threats at a discount. When vile rebirth is adding to your team (when his man dies and yours doesnt) either you're winning like crazy or you had a slow start with a hand you shouldn't keep. Either way a bear on layaway likely wont change the outcome. Unearth, on the other hand, turns games around and is muuuch better late in the game.
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Ajani looks nuts in cube, so can't wait to play him.
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Yep, these are pretty much exactly the reasons I like Unearth more.
Did you really miss my point? If it was what you're making out to be (an instant speed 2/2 for B that adds to your team and provides all those other benefits, etc) it definitely would be better, but it's not that.
I didn't mention anything about Unearth being able to target both graveyards, all I stated was how it generally plays out. I think you have wishful thinking a lot more on your side.
Did you miss the part where I said the RFG clause is far more of a downside than an upside?
Yeah? Enough for what? An agreement of disagreement? It's not like that's ever not an option if you want to stop talking.
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Muckwader's a solid dude, but there's no way I'd play him as one of my only 3 Rakdos cards. Not without regenerating for B or 2 life or something.
And ya, Ajani looks so very good.
Exactly. I've heard your points, and they're valid. You've heard my points and they're valid. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I like being able to exile a creature from my opponent's graveyard they have the potential to get value from. I like having an instant-speed creature in black with another relevant upside (even if that upside can sometimes be a liability, as you outlined). I like being able to add to my total threat count instead of relying on having a target in my own 'yard. And I like playing proactively by playing a card that gets value from my own removal instead of playing reactively by trying to get value from my opponent's removal. Vile Rebirth does all of these things. Unearth does none of these things. So while Unearth gets me back a higher quality creature, it doesn't do any of the things that I actually like about Vile Rebirth.
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Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
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For what it's worth - in almost every situation, I like Unearth far more than I like Vile Rebirth.
With Vile Rebirth, you aren't "Being able" to exile a creature as much as you are "waiting to be able to" exile a creature. In cube, 2 power dudes with CMC=1 are best early in the game (as early as possible, in fact). Vile Rebirth does not fit that bill AT ALL, unless you are T1 Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, hit a dude, Vile Rebirth. That play seems sweet, actually, but is far too narrow.
So, since you can't play the 2 power 1 mana dude on T1 (or even reliably before T3 or 4), then it doesn't even count as a creature in your deck (or cube, for a similar reason Kird Ape counts as RG - That's where it is best/most often used). Vile Rebirth is almost never going to be used as an early aggro creature, so we then move it to the 1 mana black spells slot, which nullifies your "2/2 for B creature with flash", because throwing Serra Avenger's drawback on that card doesn't make it close to playable.
Because of reasons I've outlined, I don't think this card adds to your threat count unless you are in WB Tokens - only in that deck does adding a 2/2 on T3 or 4 actually effect the board in any relevant way. The X/B Control decks wouldn't run that card, and I don't see B mid-rangy decks wanting it either when they want to be casting a Sewer Nemesis or a Graveborn Muse (or a wrath) on T4.
Proactive? There is nothing proactive about Vile Rebirth. Proactive is Gravecrawler/Sarcomancy/other 2 power one drops that actively put pressure on your opponents in the early game when 2 power dudes are actually relevant. Vile Rebirth is exactly a reactive card, ESPECIALLY since you have to have already done work of some sort to get a creature in their graveyard (Whether it be with a removal spell, a discard spell, or a trade in combat). And sure, in combat, Vile Rebirth can give you an extra little edge, but only after you've already done the necessary work to put something in their graveyard. In aggro v. aggro, trading creatures usually happens early on, but even still, the earliest you can possibly play this would be EOT their T2 while you're on the draw, after trading your 1-drop with their 1-drop in combat. (Or if you REALLY wanted to run this 2/2 out there, T2 on the play you could Dismember/Snuff Out their creature and then play it...).
Unearth, on the other hand, is a very different card than Vile Rebirth, but comparing them is actually fair, since they are both black spells (not creatures) that cost B and affect graveyards. Now, in the black aggro decks, which is more relevant:
Vile Rebirth - costs B, has to exile a creature from your opponents yard (which means you've already spent at least 1 card to get one there), gives you a 2/2 no earlier (most of the time) than turn 3, fairly niche combat trick.
Unearth - costs B, nullifies some amount of work that your opponent has done to get something of yours in the graveyard (or maybe you used a discard outlet), gets you 2 power aggro beater AT WORST, at best its a 3CMC value creature that only gains you even more value. And cycles if its that poor in whatever matchup you are in.
[I'm not mentioning Vile Rebirth's niche anti-reanimator/Persist/Undying utility, because that's only relevant against a handful of cards in cube, and doesn't make the card playable on its own right - its just an added bonus. (inb4 Vile Rebirth > Unearth because it removes the dude you just tried to Unearth lol)]
In aggro, it seems that Unearth is better in almost every situation.
In a midrange/control deck, Vile Rebirth does almost nothing relevant, since a 2/2 on T3 or later isn't actually a "threat". So, its nothing more than a chump blocker at that point that can only be played after a removal spell. Unearth, on the other hand, gets back some early value creature that you already got value off of and chump blocked with. So that card gives you another chump blocker (keeping you alive longer) along with whatever value you already got from the creature itself, and is at worst 1-for-1'ing your opponents removal spell/traded creature, and at best a 2/3/4-for-1, depending on what you reanimate (Kitchen Finks?). I don't ever see how Vile Rebirth is ever better than a 1-for-1:
If they trade a creature into yours, Vile Rebirth becomes an X-for-1, but you don't actually know what X is, because for X to be anything relevant, they have to be on a plan that involves reanimating/getting more value out of their dude, which is almost never more than 0-2 decks out of any given draft.
If you use a removal spell on their creature, Vile Rebirth becomes a .5/1-for-2 - They use the utility of their creature in the graveyard for your removal spell and Vile Rebirth (.5), or your 2/2 is actually putting pressure on them because of this in which case it becomes a 1-for-2.
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No it doesn't. It can be one of your dead creatures too. You can grab a creature of theirs that's dead to make an extra threat, or you can recover from their removal by replacing yours.
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Touche. Forgot that you can replace your own dudes.
And yes, they are quite different.
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Yeah, I think I walloftext'd under that assumption. It is much closer now that I realize what the card actually does. Maybe I just like playing ETB dudes 2/3/4 times too much (which gives Unearth the slight nod IMO)
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Ya, choosing an Ashcoat Bear with an Unearth would be pretty terrible. I hear that creature's pretty bad at sorcery speed.
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Ya, Ashcoat Bear is bad. Good thing that card isn't part of the discussion!
If Ashcoat Bear could rip my opponent's Bloodghast out of their graveyard and only cost 1 mana, we'd have an apt comparison.
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That said, this review seems pretty spot-on for even Standard or Limited. I especially like your take on Disciple of Bolas and Knight of Infamy, cards which combo rather well with each other, in my opinion, especially with a few other exalted triggers in play. They allow you to sacrifice a small pinger, such as Tormented Soul, which suddenly is no longer small, and which gives you as many as 3-4 cards and life! If you add in the fact that the disciple no longer matters after his ETB triggers, his size makes him an extremely viable exalted swinger himself! Not to mention someone to trade with opposing attackers that doesn't give up an exalted trigger by dying. I may be overvaluing all of the cards I just mentioned, but that won't stop me from tring to make a competitive black/white exalted Disciple deck.
Standard:
GMono-Green CountersG
Modern:
URStormUR
XMyr OverflowX
BWBlack-White TokensBW
EDH:
WUGrand Arbiter Augustine's Spell DenialWU
WGRhys's TokensWG
RKrenko's CommandR
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Remember, this is a preview, not intended to be gospel.
Anyways... the new one is up for the M14 cards.
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