MTG Salvation

Recently, eidolon232 began implementing a new system of discussing spoiler seasons for RTR with multiple SCD threads for new cards. This has led to both support and opposition to the idea, with a huge amount of dissension within the community. The relatively new forum structure from months ago seems to still be in flux, as we the community go about deciding what the best way to structure discussion is for spoiler seasons.

The Cube Forum Mod Team feels that, while there are certainly pros and cons of the different ways of tackling a spoiler season, the new method was implemented without enough input from the community. The large amount of dissent in opinions over this have clearly shown that there will need to be a lot of discussion to get to a system that will be the best for the community; there is no clear superior one yet.

So, after some deliberation, we've decided to try to postpone the multiple threads system for RTR discussion. We would like to urge discussion to return to its original system in the singular RTR thread. SCDs for interesting cards in RTR like planeswalkers are still definitely allowed, but not necessarily for every single card. Discussion in RTR SCDs that have already been created will continue as normal.

For those who like the new system or dislike the old system, we ask for your patience. The amount of dissent that was shown really does mean that eidolon's implementation was premature. The best way we've decided in allowing RTR discussion to run smoothly, and not underscored or be tangled with this debate, is to return to a system that has worked in the past and that people can at least accept temporarily.

In this thread, we'll start the discussion for working out the best way to handle spoiler season from now on. This discussion will run concurrent with RTR so that we can develop an accepted standard that we can use for Gatecrash spoiler season and onwards.


So, this second half of the opening will be dedicated to the real point of this thread: figuring out the best way to tackle spoiler seasons from here on out. The Card and Archetype Discussion subforum, and the emergence of SCD threads, has opened the question of whether we can set up a better system than the mono-thread discussion structure we have now. This is the time for discussion between users of this community as well as with us moderators.

What follows is a summary of the three main structures that have arisen. Above is a preliminary poll asking for your opinions on which one is the best. Obviously any system that we take will need some work, but it's good to gauge the basic community opinion so far.


These pros and cons are very rudimentary and only try to summarise what discussion has already occured in the RTR thread on the matter. If there's something I've missed, or something that you refute, please start the discussion by pointing out out!

If we go with either structures B or C, one major issue that needs to be figured out is which cards deserve SCDs? The default is every card, with the less discussed ones to sink down the thread lists. This is adequate to some but also feels wrong to others, including myself. Another method is to only open SCDs for the cards you are interested about, and users who do not see a thread for a particular card can open one if they wish. This seems better, and is the stance the Cube Mod Team is taking. Your opinions are valuable here as well.

All discussion of different structures of spoiler season discussion should go here and no where else. Thanks.

Cheers,
The Cube Mod Team.

Quote from DerBK

Must everything be black and white? Keep the megathread and when there's actually something to discuss, the person who wants to start it, starts a SCD thread. There's not enough to talk about yet, since nobody tested the cards extensively yet, so the problem solves itself.

It only gets idiotic when the whole forum gets a thread for every card, no matter how marginal, and we just get swamped because someone went on a 200 post rampage. I kinda want to talk about the new cards, but i am certainly not going to check out 80 threads when 1 would suffice. The way the SCD forum looks now is just terrible and unreadable.

For similar reasons, a new subforum is not needed. Let the in-detail discussion wait until we actually have details.

I agree with most of this.

For the record, eidolon's venture turned out a lot better than I thought it would. I'm now convinced that more SCD threads is a good thing - even 'too many' - if a card doesn't interest you, don't click on its SCD thread. Just check out the spoiler to see all cards in one place, then go visit the SCD threads of those cards that interest you.

More, better structured discussion = better.

If I must vote for one of the proposals, I pick B. SCD threads > megathread, and making a sub forum seems silly since they're IN a subforum created specifically for them already. But really, I think a 'general' thread and SCD threads is the best solution (basically what's going on now).

Personally I agree with DerBK that most discussion should be kept in the single thread. When some especially interesting card pops up it can spawn a SCD thread. That way we don't get swamped by new threads.

This is my my personal opinion and not my opinion as moderator.

One megathead for discussion, and a subforum to hold all the SCD threads until the set comes out.

The disadvantage of first having a mega thread and then rehashing all the information, is that some of us (me at least), would dislike typing out our opinion twice.

That is the advantage of the SCD. You only have to write your opinion down once and not every few months.

Quote from Nof

Most rares are not cube worthy. Doesn't make sense to automaticaly create a thread about them.

Same can be said about mythics.

I voted for a subforum with all the discussion, seems this way everyone wins, we still get individual discussions, while not stifling cards that have already been released. And we still have a megathread for the people who can't check out all the other ones.

Firstly thanks for the care and consideration in discussing this with us. I was daunted by the initial wall of SCDs that cropped up and besides a few all stars it seemed unnecessary. To me, the single thread served the purpose of spoiler conversation, allowing people to not spoil the set if they wished. I don't think we should do SCDs until the whole set is spoiled at the least.


Edit: I do like the polls at the top of new SCD threads though. I good way for people to skip, " I think it's jank' type posts and for newer cubers to get a quick pulse from the group mind.

If we had a "Rumor Season and the Cube" subforum, it would take care of all of this. And as soon as the set releases, the threads can be moved to where they belong. That way, we don't bury the non-RtR discussion in spoiler threads, and the rest of the subforums are left unaffected. We'd be able to talk about everything in there; upcoming product, new sets, spoiled cards, future FTVs ...and once they're out, they just get shifted to where they belong. I think it's a great solution.

How about rares/mythics auto getting an SCD, then commons/uncommons getting one if there's loads of buzz about it, along with the megathread for just general stuff?

This should be unnecessary. Rarity is irrelevant for the cube. Either it's good/borderline and can get a [SCD] thread, or it's garbage and doesn't need to be discussed at all. If you feel like a card that doesn't have a thread really warrants detailed discussion for the cube, simply create a thread for it. Nothing should be automatically created.

Second the subforum idea - I recently found that when trying to find opinions on old cards, it was a pretty big pain (Blade Splicer) and having the subforum should help with the overload of threads.

Quote from wtwlf123

One megathead for discussion, and a subforum to hold all the SCD threads until the set comes out.

Quote from Reaver027

I would like to see a new subforum where all these new ICD threads can be posted while we are in spoiler season.
Once the set is released and discussion among these cards has slowed down they should be moved to CaAD. Perhaps only move them once a new spoiler season starts.
That way interesting discussions wont get washed away in spoiler season.

So a new subforum for current spoiler season. Once a new spoiler season starts old ICDs should get moved to CaAD.

Gives everything more room to breath.

This would be my personally preferred approach. The spoiler SCDs get to be kept a little less in-the-face for those that like to go spoiler-dark, while at the same time we get to make use of the fantastic resource that SCD threads are. Emptying it at the end of spoiler season into the main forum also lets us keep the nice streamlined system that we have now in the off-season. If we go that way, it's even possible to have the subforum only seasonally open for posting.

Quote from wtwlf123

If we had a "Rumor Season and the Cube" subforum, it would take care of all of this. And as soon as the set releases, the threads can be moved to where they belong. That way, we don't bury the non-RtR discussion in spoiler threads, and the rest of the subforums are left unaffected. We'd be able to talk about everything in there; upcoming product, new sets, spoiled cards, future FTVs ...and once they're out, they just get shifted to where they belong. I think it's a great solution.

This seems to be the solution that steps on the fewest toes and would be relatively easy to implement. It allows us to have our discussions of new things and decide how we feel while also leaving space for discussion of older cards. I especially like the threads that are active/important enough getting brought up to the C&AD sub when the set releases.

I would hope that all the SCD threads would just move over to the Discussion forums, and slowly fall away. I don't think they'd go to archive, because people can still look them up and comment on them like regular SCD threads, right?

Quote from eidolon232

Assuming there is going to be a Subforum for discussing the spoiled cards, what is going to happen with those threads when the set is completely released?
Are we going to get move to the regular card discussion forum, do they stay open permanently or do they get archived right away / when the next set gets spoiled?

The concept would be that the mods mass-move spoiler season SCDs for cards that weren't misspoiled to the main card & archetype discussion forum from the spoiler C&AD sub at the set's release. Mis-spoiled card discussions would probably be archived, but I think we'd want to cross that bridge when we get there.

I'd like it better if the card discussions got archived instead, and new threads could pop up in the main forum when needed. And of course it would be nice if the OP could link the discussion from the spoiler archive as well. But a fresh new thread where actual testing data is used I feel would be best for new people browsing card discussions after release.

I think the single mega-thread is terrible. I thought it a bit weird seeing all the PAX cards show up there, but I loved the discussion it caused. I voted for a sub forum, but would be just as happy with Structure B. I don't think it is too clutered as long as an abundance of "Not a Chance" cards do not make an appearance.

I think most discussions will revolve around newer cards, as there are so many SCD posts already to read and add to, so making the cards avalible to be discussed openeing is very healthy for this forum

Quote from DerBK

I'd also prefer that we start clean threads without the spoiler hype once rumor season is over. Let the spoiler threads just stay in that new subforum. Or archive them. But don't let those rumor SCD threads mess up the relatively well working system we got going in the CaAD forum. When people look up a SCD thread, they don't want to wade through 3 pages of outdated speculation before getting to the real discussion.

I'd be okay with this if we go with the subforum. You are right that 3 pages of spoiler season hype would be annoying to slog through when looking for where the actual data starts.

you shouldn't "slog through" pages of SCDs anyway, though. isn't the entire point that you search them out or use the compilation thread? i think archiving those threads is a pretty horrible idea. they're SCD threads like any other.

Quote from quitequieter

you shouldn't "slog through" pages of SCDs anyway, though. isn't the entire point that you search them out or use the compilation thread? i think archiving those threads is a pretty horrible idea. they're SCD threads like any other.

I meant that these threads can get 3 or more pages of discussion before anyone has had the opportunity to test them.

Consider Liliana 3. At first look, it appeared pretty terrible, but wtwlf has found it decent upon testing. Having pages of "this card looks bad" prior to people having the chance to test it actually mitigates the utility of the SCD thread post spoiler season.

I'm not completely sold on the idea, and my default is still to dump them back into C&AD come the end of spoiler season, but I do understand where DerBK is coming from, and it's a reasonable concern imo.

For me, personally, my time that I get to spend on the forums has become quite a bit more limited over the course of this year. Because of this, I'm only able to seriously keep up with a few threads. Prior to SCD threads being implemented, this was quite easy. Any discussion over single cards was basically limited to the Card Evaluation Thread, so it was fairly quick and easy to participate in any and all discussion. Now that we have SCD threads, though, I don't get to participate near as much as I would like to or even as I once did. I can't wade through that many threads and that many posts every day. I just don't have the time. I do occasionally post on the SCD threads, but it's not often. This would not change for me if we went to a SCD thread system for spoiled cards. I prefer keeping all spoiler season discussion to one thread. It makes it easier for me to be able to check one thread and quickly gauge people's thoughts on new cards.

Putting the SCDs in a subforum solves the dilemma for those that don't like it because it clogs up discussion of other cards. However, it doesn't solve the dilemma for those that simply can't devote the kind of time it requires to read that many threads. If anything, it makes it worse for those of us very little time to devote to the discussion. Not only do we have to browse a ton of threads, but now we have to navigate to an entirely new forum. I realize it's just one more click, but in all honesty the only time I look at the cube list forum now is when I'm looking for a specific list to compare my own cube to.

Trying not to be too dramatic here, but to be completely honest, if anything other than the same system we've been using is implemented, then my input here (concerning spoiled cards and the new set) will likely fall to a very very minimal amount. For me spoiler season at that point will be checking the cards on my own and waiting for the set review threads to go up. That's not exactly a terrible thing, but I would certainly miss being a part of the discussion. I love these forums and the group that we have posting here, but the recent changes to the forum structure have only served to make it more difficult for me to keep up my posting habits.

Personally, I'm against rumor-season SCDs because a lot of it is (over)hype. This is a fact that has not escaped the notice of others in this thread. SCDs are explicitly meant to be a more academic debate of a card's qualities. Not three pages of what essentially boils down to OMG WIN or OMG FAIL. I can just go to the Rumor Mill for that.

The old system worked fine in my opinion. If somebody feels super passionate that a card deserves its own thread then someone can make one but it should not be a speculative thread. The "Pack Rat" is actually a good thread because a Pro-Con argument was made for the card to begin with but more importantly, someone (wtwlf123) was passionate enough about the card to test it and supply results. Even if eidolon232 did nothing, wtwlf123 probably would have made a thread and provided actual info.

Most of the threads that have filled up the board are akin to "what's your opinion on Card X" and most replies have been "I dunno, seems ok". Equally worthless are threads akin to "How awesome is this card" followed by replies of "So Awesome!". Such threads are worthless; it is rare that discussion of real value as been added in most circumstances to justify the additional/separate thread. It's often all pre-release hype or skepticism.

Then we get to the issue of what deserves a thread? No way will there be 250, 100 or even 30 cards worth discussing for serious inclusion in standard cubes. Why does Worldspine Wurm have a thread? Why does Isperia have a thread? Etc, Etc. Looking at all these extraneous threads is an eyesore, makes finding other threads harder and stifles all non RtR discussion on this board. Creating a subform will just result in a few useful threads being buried under a sea of threads filled with worthless replies such as the ones I highlighted above. Furthermore, a subforum also exasperates the additional work and effort to view discussion on the set and participate brought on by these SCDs.

The best system I see is just the old system with the caveat that people can make SCD threads but not to just ask for opinions but provide strong arguments for inclusion (specific the type of Cube if it isn't standard) or results from proxy playtesting.

If we HAVE to do a rumor subforum; all SCD threads created there should be archived once the set is released. When somebody wants to discuss a card in X weeks/months they don't need 30+ posts saying "snap include" or "unplayable" from people who at the time hadn't touched the card.

Quote from Hicham

The disadvantage of first having a mega thread and then rehashing all the information, is that some of us (me at least), would dislike typing out our opinion twice.

That is the advantage of the SCD. You only have to write your opinion down once and not every few months.

The opinions you have now (before the entire set is spoiled and before you or most anyone has had a chance to play with the cards) almost certainly will differ from the opinion you will have weeks/months from now (when SCDs are normally created) when you or others have experience with said card. The only possible exceptions will be cards that are truly snap auto-includes or snap unplayables.

The old system worked best for me as well. All the speculation and hype goes to one thread and after we actually get to play with the cards, we can create own SCD's for the card. I don't mind SCD for some cards - like pack rat - during spoiler season. Having this many as we have now just makes it really time consuming to follow everything.

With one thread it is so easy to just have the tab open and press refresh: Now you know where to continue reading. With all of these threads one has to check all the time has there been new writings in different threads. If yes, if there have been more than one, there is no way to know exactly where you left before. You pretty much have to scroll around and figure out what was the last post you already read. Multiply this by tens of threads and it gets really annoying to follow.

So I voted megathread for the spoiler season and once there are actual experiences with the cards and someone is interested enough to share them - create SCD for the card.

I just went back and looked at eidolon's original post. Just below his post, I posted that I completely agree, so he and I were not entirely on different pages. One of the problems with the RtR thread before rumor season really got off and running was that it was basically just a bit off topic spam fest. Every day I'd come here and click the RtR thread thinking something sweet was spoiled, but it was always just a bunch of speculation and irrelevant discussion. I don't agree with posting a bunch of SCD threads, but I do think that discussion in the Megathread should be kept to cards that have been spoiled or rumored, not cards that you hope they print. There's a Print This Wizards thread for that sort of discussion.

Last I checked, spam of any sort was a big no no on forum threads. Off topic posts should be moderated appropriately.

I am strongly in favor of the SCD format over the megathread. I don't read megathreads at all anymore, they are just way too time consuming and the level of discourse is often less analytic than in the SCD threads. My suggestion is that the cube forum have a policy for SCD threads that "This is awesome" or "staple for sure" posts be moderated. I believe that when something is a staple, that quality will speak for itself. If members want to contribute some analysis or reasoning as to why it will be a staple, I'm all for it. Even better is when members offer dissenting opinions to cards which will be staples. What' I'm not for is echo chamber posts, especially during spoiler season.