Is re-opening the thread, cleaning it out, then leaving it as a locked sticky in its last known good state not an option? albeit worse case situation.
This benefits people who would like the information that is now lost. Benefits MTGSalvation by keeping their most popular thread in some form, and probably a thread that brought in members and hits/views.
The thread is still available for perusal as a sticky in the cube archive for now.
It appears that the dropbox has been taken offline though, so you'll need to do some fancy searches to find what you want.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
1. To take care of dumb posters: Re-open the proxy thread and make zerbee a mod (if even a this-thread-only mod). Like he said, he checks the site 20x a day.
2. To take care of lurkers: Make the proxy thread viewable to members only, and have members acknowledge a user agreement that explains the severity of the proxy issue.
That way, we can keep the creative outlet that we all enjoy while having stricter guidelines to avoid abuse.
A few pages ago, someone mentioned they wouldn't even have a cube if not for proxies.
Again, just playing devil's advocate here... From a strict IP point of view, a user with a cube full of proxies represents "revenue lost" because they didn't buy those products from a dealer.
As cool as it is to have a cube community that has unlimited access to power cards, this should not be a valid argument for allowing high-end proxies to be available.
As a user I'm bummed as well, because I've wanted to do some deck testing using proxies. For example, I want to build a wolf-run deck. There used to be sites where you can copy and paste a deck list, and in return get a high quality PDF to print out. I thought I would print out a wolf-run deck to play test my delver-blade and birthing pod decks, which were legit. I had no intention of buying the wolf-run deck, but really wanted to play test against one of the more established archetypes. The site is no longer functional due to WoTC actions, and at first I was all WTF...
But look at the above situation from their point of view. I would gain value from their hard work. I would enjoy playing the deck, and testing my standard builds, and get hours of enjoyment, without paying for it.
Anyway, I'm sorry to ramble here. I just think that some of us don't realize what this may look like from the creators' point of view.
Also: Ebay auction to report. The seller is real sly, claims to have "found" loads of proxies in a lot he bought at a yard sale. Seller also has a rating of zero, so he's a new signup:
I don't know if the opinion of forum users is being canvassed here, but I'd be strongly in favour of moving any resurrected form of this thread to the art forum. Having the thread in the Cube forum only makes sense if people might be using printouts of these proxies to play Cube with. If the site wants to protect itself from legal risk there needs to be an awareness that this is a legal grey area which it could do with keeping clear of.
Now of course it's not likely that WotC would ever object. That's not the point.
Also, there's the question of how copyright relates to internet publication generally (for example, I was amused to note that Pinterest's terms and conditions effectively forbid you from using the service at all!). Again, it's not in the interests of Salvation for any thread on the site to be pushing the boundaries in this area, even when the activity in question is obviously morally OK it's still a legal risk.
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--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I have not personally come up with any particular decision thus far regarding the proxy thread. I simply wanted everyone to know that I applaud the mods actions thus far and I think the discussion on how and if it should come back, along with in what form should continue.
@Sorin_777: I have spent more money on my cube than I ever would have in any other area of magic. By using proxies to create my own powerful cards I have actually added to the revenue of various card shops, not taken from it. I'm spending money I wouldn't otherwise spend just to create these proxies, but also in just buying the cheaper cards that I don't need to proxy. Even those who proxy their whole cube are buying things the shops wouldn't expect to sell: worthless, foil commons and uncommons to be stripped. In a way, the thread actually produces revenue.
A few pages ago, someone mentioned they wouldn't even have a cube if not for proxies.
Again, just playing devil's advocate here... From a strict IP point of view, a user with a cube full of proxies represents "revenue lost" because they didn't buy those products from a dealer.
Implying said user would've otherwise bought all the cards for their cube at a cost of $10-20k. I know I wouldn't have.
Implying said user would've otherwise bought all the cards for their cube at a cost of $10-20k. I know I wouldn't have.
Of course I didn't imply that, and you are also talking secondary market. All that Wizards would make off of cards is what the dealer bought them for wholesale. Whether that dealer cracked packs for singles or a player bought it at retail, the profit to the manufacturer is the same. So your point is rather silly.
@Sorin_777: I have spent more money on my cube than I ever would have in any other area of magic. By using proxies to create my own powerful cards I have actually added to the revenue of various card shops, not taken from it. I'm spending money I wouldn't otherwise spend just to create these proxies, but also in just buying the cheaper cards that I don't need to proxy. Even those who proxy their whole cube are buying things the shops wouldn't expect to sell: worthless, foil commons and uncommons to be stripped. In a way, the thread actually produces revenue.
Of course I didn't imply that, and you are also talking secondary market. All that Wizards would make off of cards is what the dealer bought them for wholesale. Whether that dealer cracked packs for singles or a player bought it at retail, the profit to the manufacturer is the same. So your point is rather silly.
It was absolutely implied; revenue can't be "lost" if it wasn't / wouldn't have been generated in the first place.
Also, your use of the term "dealer" indicated that you were talking about the secondary market as well, so I'm pretty sure we're on the same page.
I never mentioned WotC or the primary market... the dollar figure was included only to signify the unlikeliness of said user actually purchasing legitimate cards.
Big companies don't care if people "buy" cards through first using proxies. WOTC is by all accounts doing perfectly fine right now, too.
As much as I like seeing cool mtg art, if it's going to end up getting this entire website shut down, then it might be better to spin it off as a completely separate website or something. That way if somebody gets a bit too enthusiastic the sky doesn't fall.
But look at the above situation from their point of view. I would gain value from their hard work. I would enjoy playing the deck, and testing my standard builds, and get hours of enjoyment, without paying for it.
Anyway, I'm sorry to ramble here. I just think that some of us don't realize what this may look like from the creators' point of view.
While that may be true, the fact is that even without the proxy thread, I could have made proxies. Sure, they wouldn't have been as nice looking. Sure, I would have had to do every card myself. But that wouldn't have prevented me from making a proxy deck if I was so inclined.
If I have 60 Forests and a magic marker, I can make any deck I want.
I once took a sheet of paper, cut it into 60 equal-sized pieces of paper. Then I wrote card names on it, tossed it into a little box, and played it against my friends real decks.
So the proxy thread didn't enable people to make proxy decks. Perhaps you could claim that it enabled them to make their proxy decks look nice, but that's about all.
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Aether Revolt was a revolting pre-release. As if Vehicles weren't frustrating enough, now you don't even have to crew them.
The only issue with proxies is if you attempt to profit from them. You're making money off Wizards' property without permission and without giving them a cut. Makes sense.
The proxy thread described in detail how to recreate Wizards' trademarked design and provided some of the tools to do so. This in itself is not bad. But as soon as eBay and money get involved it all falls apart.
Not to cause argument, but that refers to "actual Wizards trading cards." To me that means a 1:1 reproduction. Other language in that statement supports the idea as well.
Most of what the "proxy" thread was doing is creating alternate art and doing neat things with frames.
So there's some interpretation as far as that statement goes concerning "proxy" and "counterfeit." Just pointing that out. I also should mention that 1:1 reproductions were forbidden by the thread rules, and it was never an issue.
For me, the part that says that it doesn't matter "whether or not they are identified as non-genuine" means that even if you are creating foil copies of old cards or changing the art/ text violates their copyright.
Correct. We don't have license to use the mana symbols, tap symbol, probably the artist's brush, frame backgrounds, some card titles and card types etc.
Though you could make an argument that we(most of us) operate under the terms of Fair Use.
So the proxy thread didn't enable people to make proxy decks. Perhaps you could claim that it enabled them to make their proxy decks look nice, but that's about all.
QFT
If you remember the proxy thread rules, there was rather strict warnings against making high quality proxy cards that could be considered "counterfeit". (See the above quote from the Wizards policy.)
I will also state (again) that my notes were made to make people aware of the way the situation would look to the ones who hold the intellectual property. As a player, I am probably in agreement with most of you here that playing with proxies is fun, whether it is a slip of paper, sharpie marker, or high quality printouts.
I would also point out that I work professionally with intellectual property issues, not merely trolling you guys for an argument.
May I ask if there is a timetable for determining the future of the cube proxy thread?
I love the work that has gone into this thread. I have created many proxies for my cube and learned loads here. All put to good legal use. I will be sad if it has to go away.
Signed
Long time lurker who isn't the bad guy.
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The thread is still available for perusal as a sticky in the cube archive for now.
It appears that the dropbox has been taken offline though, so you'll need to do some fancy searches to find what you want.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Binary's comment is about protecting MTGs from legal liability. Your comment is about overzealous moderation.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
I was the one who issued the warning.
I will be happy to discuss it with you on my helpdesk, but this is not the place.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
http://wizards.custhelp.com/app/ask
"Report Suspicious Behavior"
Feel free to report mtg-customs. His eBay link is in my sig.
EDIT: He gone!
1. To take care of dumb posters: Re-open the proxy thread and make zerbee a mod (if even a this-thread-only mod). Like he said, he checks the site 20x a day.
2. To take care of lurkers: Make the proxy thread viewable to members only, and have members acknowledge a user agreement that explains the severity of the proxy issue.
That way, we can keep the creative outlet that we all enjoy while having stricter guidelines to avoid abuse.
My Legacy-Legal Cube <--- Draft It!
wtwlf123's Classic Cube
Lanxal's Pauper Cube
Cubers, UNITE! Don't forget to post your cube location on The Great Cube Map Thread
Again, just playing devil's advocate here... From a strict IP point of view, a user with a cube full of proxies represents "revenue lost" because they didn't buy those products from a dealer.
As cool as it is to have a cube community that has unlimited access to power cards, this should not be a valid argument for allowing high-end proxies to be available.
As a user I'm bummed as well, because I've wanted to do some deck testing using proxies. For example, I want to build a wolf-run deck. There used to be sites where you can copy and paste a deck list, and in return get a high quality PDF to print out. I thought I would print out a wolf-run deck to play test my delver-blade and birthing pod decks, which were legit. I had no intention of buying the wolf-run deck, but really wanted to play test against one of the more established archetypes. The site is no longer functional due to WoTC actions, and at first I was all WTF...
But look at the above situation from their point of view. I would gain value from their hard work. I would enjoy playing the deck, and testing my standard builds, and get hours of enjoyment, without paying for it.
Anyway, I'm sorry to ramble here. I just think that some of us don't realize what this may look like from the creators' point of view.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/mtg-MAGIC-GATHERING-high-end-PROXIES-/220985856568?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3373c89238
Aaaaaand, Gone. 10 minutes.
Now of course it's not likely that WotC would ever object. That's not the point.
Also, there's the question of how copyright relates to internet publication generally (for example, I was amused to note that Pinterest's terms and conditions effectively forbid you from using the service at all!). Again, it's not in the interests of Salvation for any thread on the site to be pushing the boundaries in this area, even when the activity in question is obviously morally OK it's still a legal risk.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
cheers,
H.G.
http://hgcube.blogspot.com/ (help me Make my Custom CUBE!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=382498
The "Make a Proxy Thread
Redit Proxy Article "current gallery"
MY LEGACY ALTERS
A few custom proxy token sellers, please report direct to Wizards via the link I shared before:
http://myworld.ebay.com/lucius-a/?_trksid=p4340.l2559
http://myworld.ebay.com/ravenism/?_trksid=p4340.l2559
http://myworld.ebay.com/jesseh583/?_trksid=p4340.l2559
Thanks much.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Implying said user would've otherwise bought all the cards for their cube at a cost of $10-20k. I know I wouldn't have.
Of course I didn't imply that, and you are also talking secondary market. All that Wizards would make off of cards is what the dealer bought them for wholesale. Whether that dealer cracked packs for singles or a player bought it at retail, the profit to the manufacturer is the same. So your point is rather silly.
Point well taken Theogony.
It was absolutely implied; revenue can't be "lost" if it wasn't / wouldn't have been generated in the first place.
Also, your use of the term "dealer" indicated that you were talking about the secondary market as well, so I'm pretty sure we're on the same page.
I never mentioned WotC or the primary market... the dollar figure was included only to signify the unlikeliness of said user actually purchasing legitimate cards.
As much as I like seeing cool mtg art, if it's going to end up getting this entire website shut down, then it might be better to spin it off as a completely separate website or something. That way if somebody gets a bit too enthusiastic the sky doesn't fall.
While that may be true, the fact is that even without the proxy thread, I could have made proxies. Sure, they wouldn't have been as nice looking. Sure, I would have had to do every card myself. But that wouldn't have prevented me from making a proxy deck if I was so inclined.
If I have 60 Forests and a magic marker, I can make any deck I want.
I once took a sheet of paper, cut it into 60 equal-sized pieces of paper. Then I wrote card names on it, tossed it into a little box, and played it against my friends real decks.
So the proxy thread didn't enable people to make proxy decks. Perhaps you could claim that it enabled them to make their proxy decks look nice, but that's about all.
The proxy thread described in detail how to recreate Wizards' trademarked design and provided some of the tools to do so. This in itself is not bad. But as soon as eBay and money get involved it all falls apart.
PERSONAL USE people. Keep it to yourself.
Most of what the "proxy" thread was doing is creating alternate art and doing neat things with frames.
So there's some interpretation as far as that statement goes concerning "proxy" and "counterfeit." Just pointing that out. I also should mention that 1:1 reproductions were forbidden by the thread rules, and it was never an issue.
Correct. We don't have license to use the mana symbols, tap symbol, probably the artist's brush, frame backgrounds, some card titles and card types etc.
Though you could make an argument that we(most of us) operate under the terms of Fair Use.
QFT
If you remember the proxy thread rules, there was rather strict warnings against making high quality proxy cards that could be considered "counterfeit". (See the above quote from the Wizards policy.)
I will also state (again) that my notes were made to make people aware of the way the situation would look to the ones who hold the intellectual property. As a player, I am probably in agreement with most of you here that playing with proxies is fun, whether it is a slip of paper, sharpie marker, or high quality printouts.
I would also point out that I work professionally with intellectual property issues, not merely trolling you guys for an argument.
I love the work that has gone into this thread. I have created many proxies for my cube and learned loads here. All put to good legal use. I will be sad if it has to go away.
Signed
Long time lurker who isn't the bad guy.