2011 Pauper Power Rankings!!
The second time coming of Pauper-tastic rankings.
Hand in them Top 20s, people.
Time to get into it. The voting, where you guys - yes, you - get to decide how exactly these rankings will go. In a manner of speaking. The more people we can get to do this, the less each individual ranking will matter, which granted sounds terrible, but it's actually a great thing. So let's see if we can do far better than last year, shall we?
In any case, this thread is for the voting and the discussion of the current section being voted on. The discussion of already-cemented lists will occur in the Results thread (link down the bottom).
Here's how it works.
Your vote is an ordered list of the top 20 cards of a section in cube, based on the order you would pick them in P1P1 situations in a normal Booster Draft. Cards eligible for ranking are those that have been printed common any time in their lives, including cards that used to be common, like Act of Treason, and cards that have become uncommon but were once common, like... I have no idea. I'm sure one exists, though. And as another stipulation, only cards that have ever been physically printed as a common are acceptable, so no cards from Masters Edition.
After that, I'll take your list (if you post multiples, which is completely fine, I'll take the one from your latest post.) and assign a point to each card. 20 for 1st, 19 for 2nd, and so on. Then, for each card, I'll take the average of points it has scored among all lists, and then order the cards depending on their points. The top 20 become the official Rankings List for that section this year. Simple, hopefully!
Here's an example of a voting list you could submit, taken from last year's official Red Rankings List:
Also, two incredibly important things!
Two arbitrary rules to make things far more organised and prevent skewing of the results!
One! Functional or near-functional reprints should be considered one card. For instance, Gideon's Lawkeeper and Goldmeadow Harrier should take only one slot in the list. Even if Bonds of Faith makes Lawkeeper slightly better, those kind of things are negligible, and the advantages of this (more slots to unique cards) I feel is more important.
Two! Cards like Porcelain Legionnaire and Tangle Hulk should be considered in their colours (so, white and green). Even if you don't think so, this is a largely arbitrary distinction (and there's been far too much discussion about it), and we just need to make it so that there isn't situations where Legionnaire is voted in both the White Top 20 and the Artifacts Top 20.
Schedule
The voting will occur through November, and each section will be given 3-4 days for voting, except the first (White's Top 20s), which will be given a bit less than a week for newcomers to get acquited and so we can get more members into this thing. This is a bit less time than previously done (which was a week), but it's because I have to leave for China beginning of December. Apologies, but I'm sure we can do it. If it turns out we can't, I'll find another way.
To be specific, voting will end on Wednesdays and Sundays, the days when I have the most time to collate results and move the project to the next section. Please note that these days/times use Sydney time.
Section (End Date)
White (Sunday, 6th of November)
Blue (Wednesday, 9th of November)
Black (Sunday, 13th of November)
Red (Thursday, 17th of November)
Green (Monday, 21th of November)
Artifacts (Thursday, 24th of November)
Multicolor (Monday, 28th of November)
Lands (Thursday, 1sh of December)
Overall (Monday, 5th of December)
Lanxal told me to make a list, and so I did. I might have ranked a few cards strangely, but that's probably because I've had good/bad experiences with them.
1 Faith’s Fetters
2 Guardian of the Guildpact
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Journey to Nowhere
5 Troubled Healer
6 Temporal Isolation
7 Pacifism
8 Porcelain Legionnaire
9 Coalition Honor-Guard
10 Sunlance
11 Bonds of Faith
12 Arrest
13 Kor Skyfisher
14 Blinding Beam
15 Kor Sanctifiers
16 Soltari Trooper
17 Kor Hookmaster
18 Gideon’s Lawkeeper
19 Kor Chant
20 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
Subject to change, but I feel pretty comfortable with this set of rankings.
Some notes:
-I don't see how lists can simultaneously have Bonds of Faith and still put Goldmeadow Harrier over Gideon's Lawkeeper. Is there a tribal justification I'm missing that doesn't favor the Human?
EDIT: I don't love this decision, but I'm willing to work with it.
-I'm going to stick my neck out there for Healer. It's one of the best non-top tier removal reasons to go White.
-Hartebeest is so low because I haven't really had a chance to play with it yet. I want it to be higher, but don't want to put it there until I have more experience with the card.
In other news, I hear Faith's Fetters is pretty good. Abstaining from voting since I've never drafted a Pauper Cube, but interested in seeing the results.
Asking out a girl is like trying to cast a first turn Necropotence. Sometimes the other player will have the Force of Will to say no. You shouldn't let that stop you from trying it.
I do not own an Aven Riftwatcher... And haven't had the chance to try it out yet in cube, so it is excluded here unfortunately. It seems from the lists of other players that it is definitely cube-worthy.
Regarding Temporal Isolation, I feel that it is should be ranked higher than Oblivion Ring as it is cheaper to cast and can be played as an instant. I find with Oblivion Ring, I am mostly (Although not always) removing creatures anyway. In some instances I realize that Temporal Isolation is worse (Such as if you have a shadow creature, or if you need to hit a noncreature permanent)
A few things - I think functional reprints should not be voted on and the card should be shown as a single card for ranking purposes
And I also think that phybrid cards should definitely in coloured sections (as well as colourless cards with abilities that get better with that colour, eg Tangle Hulk, Immolating Souleater, Tangle Golem)
This does make some things slightly strange (eg comparing Spined Thopter to blue cards, but minimizes confusion.
And I also think that phybrid cards should definitely in coloured sections (as well as colourless cards with abilities that get better with that colour, eg Tangle Hulk, Immolating Souleater, Tangle Golem)
This does make some things slightly strange (eg comparing Spined Thopter to blue cards, but minimizes confusion.
I agree with you on cards such as Tangle Hulk, Moriok Replica, etc however these are creatures that would generally be considered sub-par picks unless you have mana in their color. For example, it is uncommon to pick a Tangle Hulk and play it unless your deck contains green mana.
Cards like Spined Thopter, Porcelain Legionnaire are good regardless of whether you have mana in their color or not. I would say that more often than not, they get drafted in decks that don't even contain their color identity. I consider them colorless, as it is reasonable to assume that a player in any color may want to draft them.
I think this comes down to personal opinion of the cube designer though... I'm sure there's mixed opinions.
I agree with you on cards such as Tangle Hulk, Moriok Replica, etc however these are creatures that would generally be considered sub-par picks unless you have mana in their color. For example, it is uncommon to pick a Tangle Hulk and play it unless your deck contains green mana.
Cards like Spined Thopter, Porcelain Legionnaire are good regardless of whether you have mana in their color or not. I would say that more often than not, they get drafted in decks that don't even contain their color identity. I consider them colorless, as it is reasonable to assume that a player in any color may want to draft them.
I think this comes down to personal opinion of the cube designer though... I'm sure there's mixed opinions.
There have been massive issues and huge debates about this. It's too much of a headache to do. Outside of a project like this, different opinions are completely fine and can coexist. But not in a project; it skews results. There needs to be a line drawn, and it has to be something we agree to, even if it's not the first choice.
People. Cards such as Porcelain Legionnaire should be considered in their colour sections. Even if you don't personally think so, please judge them as such.
Quote from Rubin »
A few things - I think functional reprints should not be voted on and the card should be shown as a single card for ranking purposes
Agreed. I'll update the OP and post it here, as well as PM the people who listed both Harrier and Lawkeeper, to get it all smoothed over.
People. Functional or near-functional reprints should be considered one card, like Gideon's Lawkeeper/Goldmeadow Harrier.
For those that have only 1 listed, I consider them both. For those that have 2, I've sent PMs.
I'm surprised that Guardian isn't #1 on everyone's list. My playgroup considers it to be one of the ten best cards in the whole Cube. Fetters is great...but some decks just flat-out lose to Guardian.
White is kind of weird, because a large quantity of its cards go in the aggro deck. Stuff like Benalish Cavalry and Youthful Knight are awesome in that deck, but if you aren't aggressive they're pretty bad. Do you rate them high or not? I decided to rate the archetype enablers high (kabuto moth, hookmaster, fortify) and left the bears off, because you can replace them pretty easily.
Also, there's only so much white removal that should reasonably fit into a cube. Cards like Pacifism in a vacuum are better than cards like Kor Skyfisher, but because there's a limit to the removal you run, most cubes won't use pacifism. I chose not to rate any removal spells I don't run. This includes Arrest and Recumbent Bliss.
Nobody is rating Sunlance. It kills most creatures and is very mana efficient. You all like Disfigure, but not Sunlance?
We've also talked about Kabuto Moth before. Everyone thinks it's mediocre even though it basically makes your creatures unblockable and it's very hard to attack into.
Nobody is rating Sunlance. It kills most creatures and is very mana efficient. You all like Disfigure, but not Sunlance?
I rated it higher than you Card is great and I think that it's harder to fill in one mana answers in white than most other colours - so sunlance is pretty sick.
01|[CARD]
Also, there's only so much white removal that should reasonably fit into a cube. Cards like Pacifism in a vacuum are better than cards like Kor Skyfisher, but because there's a limit to the removal you run, most cubes won't use pacifism. I chose not to rate any removal spells I don't run. This includes Arrest and Recumbent Bliss.
I agree with this for the most part, but disagree with your evaluation. I think Pacifism is in the top 3 Pacifism variants (loses out to Isolation and Fetters, but nothing else). That's definitely good enough to make it in, IMO. With that said, leaving Arrest and Bliss on the sidelines makes perfect sense to me (I don't run Bliss either, and I'm strongly considering cutting Arrest).
Nobody is rating Sunlance. It kills most creatures and is very mana efficient. You all like Disfigure, but not Sunlance?
I actually don't run Disfigure, so that's my excuse. With that said, it probably is better than at least one other card on my list. I'll reevaluate it.
EDIT: Yeah, it deserves to be on the list way more than Aven Riftwatcher. I know people like that card, but I think it's far more annoying than it is actually good. List changed to reflect that.
In general, people seem to be rating removal too highly. That and Cenn's Enlistment. Don't get me wrong - it's a fine card and it wins games every now and then. It's just not nearly as good a finisher as pretty much any of the (admittedly few) other finishers in the cube. And it's hardly stellar early in the game.
I'd be interested in people defending these cards. It's not that they're bad - I just haven't had the same experiences with them myself.
My pick order was ordered Bombs, Removal, and then Generally Good Creature. As you go down the list, you go from "cards I will play no matter what" to more specific archetype cards, so it keeps your options open for any number of potential white decks, which is pretty important for P1P1.
White is kind of weird, because a large quantity of its cards go in the aggro deck. Stuff like Benalish Cavalry and Youthful Knight are awesome in that deck, but if you aren't aggressive they're pretty bad. Do you rate them high or not? I decided to rate the archetype enablers high (kabuto moth, hookmaster, fortify) and left the bears off, because you can replace them pretty easily.
Yeah, that's true. That's one the reasons I don't rate purely aggressive cards very highly, because in general they're weaker on a card vs. card basis (exception being Porcelain Legionnaire), and in a P1P1 situation I really want to be taking a card that's high in power level and gives me options.
Also, there's only so much white removal that should reasonably fit into a cube. Cards like Pacifism in a vacuum are better than cards like Kor Skyfisher, but because there's a limit to the removal you run, most cubes won't use pacifism. I chose not to rate any removal spells I don't run. This includes Arrest and Recumbent Bliss.
I love Pacifism. It's strong & cheap removal. It's mostly reserved for beatsticks that can't do anything except beat, but there are enough of those in my cube for it to be an allstar often.
Also, I agree that personal preference based on what you have in your own cube is pretty important to the composition of the lists. Rubin lists Temple Acolyte, Ratman lists Troubled Healer, you don't list Recumbent Bliss, neither of us lists Arrest (although my friend DarthWaffles swears it's one of the best cards. :/). I like that because it shows individual experiences, which is pretty important to get interesting results.
Nobody is rating Sunlance. It kills most creatures and is very mana efficient. You all like Disfigure, but not Sunlance?
True enough. It's quality kill.
We've also talked about Kabuto Moth before. Everyone thinks it's mediocre even though it basically makes your creatures unblockable and it's very hard to attack into.
I'm a fan of the moth, although he's at the bottom of my Top 20.
I rate removal highly because removal is invaluable in draft. It's splashable and it'll go in (pretty much) every deck if you play white. In a P1P1 situation, besides bomb, there's not a lot I'm going to be picking over quality removal, which I believe both Pacifism and Bliss are. Admittedly, the two removal spells you listed are one of the weaker ones, they're still important in stopping fatties from your opponent's side in the lategame. And really, given the choice between a good creature and removal, I'm going to go with the removal (exceptions exist, of course, and they've been listed in my Top 20 list).
Cenn's Enlistment is a bomb in our cube. It gives midrange and aggro decks a very hard time, clogging up the ground and forcing them to dig for evasive flyers or burn. It allows control to play both the aggressive and defensive role very easily and very quickly. From experience, it's been great, although maybe I'm just remembering the great times with it. Even so, I think it's definitely cemented up there in my picks.
Soltari Trooper belongs in the Top 20, but I think it's a bit high at 7. And the other two, I don't think they should be listed higher than some of the removal you're not listing, like Pacifism.
Yeah, Arrest is a bit of a weirdo on my list. I've definitely considered cutting it, because it's among the weaker pieces of removal, but it's still pretty solid removal. I do think the card's power is partially a product of my previously mentioned pinger problem- it deals with lots of troublesome pingers far better than almost any alternative (O-Ring, Fetters, Isolation, and Journey being the obvious exceptions), and is generally a pretty solid piece of removal.
Pacifism could probably be lower, but I'd still rank it very high. 2 mana is exactly the right cost for this effect, and while it's indisputably worse than Temporal Isolation (although I do love the only-in-Cube interactions where it's not, like with Ophidian), the cards are generally pretty comparable.
Yeah, Arrest is a bit of a weirdo on my list. I've definitely considered cutting it, because it's among the weaker pieces of removal, but it's still pretty solid removal. I do think the card's power is partially a product of my previously mentioned pinger problem- it deals with lots of troublesome pingers far better than almost any alternative (O-Ring, Fetters, Isolation, and Journey being the obvious exceptions), and is generally a pretty solid piece of removal.
Are you running both Geistflame and Lava Dart? They deal with utility creatures like nothing else. Sure, they're not white, but they still hose pingers. But yeah, that makes sense. Like how Claustrophobia is a better cube card than Arrest (because it's blue) but Arrest is just better in WU. The card isn't important, nor good relative to other removal, but it's still good.
Pacifism could probably be lower, but I'd still rank it very high. 2 mana is exactly the right cost for this effect, and while it's indisputably worse than Temporal Isolation (although I do love the only-in-Cube interactions where it's not, like with Ophidian), the cards are generally pretty comparable.
I've lost a few games where I forgot that I could block shadow creatures with something that had been isolation'ed. And I've played it on my own Ophidians (though it's not in my cube anymore )
I am not running Geistflame or Lava Dart, although I definitely intend to put a Lava Dart in. Geistflame will only go in if Lava Dart ends up being as good as it looks and you say it is. The main problem is that not all of the colors really care that much about pingers, and Red doesn't exactly have a shortage of answers. White is actually probably the color that struggles most with the abundance of pingers- the average creature size is low enough that they're more backbreaking (compare this to, say, fatty Green), but the removal is bad enough that it can't deal with them that efficiently (unlike, say, Red, which loses almost all of its creatures to pingers but doesn't actually care that much).
And sigh... I get why you'd cut Ophidian, but it still breaks my heart. Scroll Thief is a better design in every way, but there will always be be a soft spot in my heart for the Snake. I do also like the plays where Isolation keeps you from attacking profitably with Soltari Troopers, though, for sure.
Kor Chant sometimes takes a little working for, but it's usually just a two-for-one. It's a complete blowout, and deserves to be ranked as one of the top white cards.
I like Cage of Hands because you can put it on small creatures and not worry about having wasted it. It's really good against decks that have a bomb you have to save removal for, since it has value when you draw it, and later on can shut down their bomb (say a Twisted Abomination or an Errant Ephemeron). I run it over the other 3 mana pacifisms, and over pacifism, because it has a unique application.
I run Puncturing Light also, mostly because I don't want all of white's removal to be auras. It kills most creatures, and having an instant speed option is nice.
Fortify is an amazing card in an aggressive white deck. It's very good at finishing out games, and you can often steal a game when your opponent doesn't consider it. If things aren't going so well you can use the +0/+2 to get some good blocks in, so it's never really dead. It's one of the best aggro enablers imo, which is why I rated it highly.
I am not running Geistflame or Lava Dart, although I definitely intend to put a Lava Dart in. Geistflame will only go in if Lava Dart ends up being as good as it looks and you say it is. The main problem is that not all of the colors really care that much about pingers, and Red doesn't exactly have a shortage of answers. White is actually probably the color that struggles most with the abundance of pingers- the average creature size is low enough that they're more backbreaking (compare this to, say, fatty Green), but the removal is bad enough that it can't deal with them that efficiently (unlike, say, Red, which loses almost all of its creatures to pingers but doesn't actually care that much).
In sealed today I played a match where lava dart killed two three drops three games in a row. Not certain on Geistflame, but it probably gets better the more problematic pingers are.
And sigh... I get why you'd cut Ophidian, but it still breaks my heart. Scroll Thief is a better design in every way, but there will always be be a soft spot in my heart for the Snake. I do also like the plays where Isolation keeps you from attacking profitably with Soltari Troopers, though, for sure.
Same with me. Just in 360 blue is so unbelievably tight, Scroll Thief barely makes the cut anyway.
@ wolfer: Thanks, all the reasoning seems solid. I might actually try Puncturing Light.
2011 Pauper Power Rankings!!
The second time coming of Pauper-tastic rankings.
Hand in them Top 20s, people.
Time to get into it. The voting, where you guys - yes, you - get to decide how exactly these rankings will go. In a manner of speaking. The more people we can get to do this, the less each individual ranking will matter, which granted sounds terrible, but it's actually a great thing. So let's see if we can do far better than last year, shall we?
In any case, this thread is for the voting and the discussion of the current section being voted on. The discussion of already-cemented lists will occur in the Results thread (link down the bottom).
Here's how it works.
Your vote is an ordered list of the top 20 cards of a section in cube, based on the order you would pick them in P1P1 situations in a normal Booster Draft. Cards eligible for ranking are those that have been printed common any time in their lives, including cards that used to be common, like Act of Treason, and cards that have become uncommon but were once common, like... I have no idea. I'm sure one exists, though. And as another stipulation, only cards that have ever been physically printed as a common are acceptable, so no cards from Masters Edition.
After that, I'll take your list (if you post multiples, which is completely fine, I'll take the one from your latest post.) and assign a point to each card. 20 for 1st, 19 for 2nd, and so on. Then, for each card, I'll take the average of points it has scored among all lists, and then order the cards depending on their points. The top 20 become the official Rankings List for that section this year. Simple, hopefully!
Here's an example of a voting list you could submit, taken from last year's official Red Rankings List:
02 Fireball
03 Lightning Bolt
04 Chain Lightning
05 Incinerate
06 Searing Blaze
07 Kaervek's Torch
08 Disintegrate
09 Fireblast
10 Arc Lightning
11 Ghitu Slinger
12 Plated Geopede
13 Burst Lightning
14 Gathan Raiders
15 Lash Out
16 Staggershock
17 Aftershock
18 Fireslinger
19 Magma Burst
20 Flame Slash
Also, two incredibly important things!
Two arbitrary rules to make things far more organised and prevent skewing of the results!
One! Functional or near-functional reprints should be considered one card. For instance, Gideon's Lawkeeper and Goldmeadow Harrier should take only one slot in the list. Even if Bonds of Faith makes Lawkeeper slightly better, those kind of things are negligible, and the advantages of this (more slots to unique cards) I feel is more important.
Two! Cards like Porcelain Legionnaire and Tangle Hulk should be considered in their colours (so, white and green). Even if you don't think so, this is a largely arbitrary distinction (and there's been far too much discussion about it), and we just need to make it so that there isn't situations where Legionnaire is voted in both the White Top 20 and the Artifacts Top 20.
Schedule
The voting will occur through November, and each section will be given 3-4 days for voting, except the first (White's Top 20s), which will be given a bit less than a week for newcomers to get acquited and so we can get more members into this thing. This is a bit less time than previously done (which was a week), but it's because I have to leave for China beginning of December. Apologies, but I'm sure we can do it. If it turns out we can't, I'll find another way.
To be specific, voting will end on Wednesdays and Sundays, the days when I have the most time to collate results and move the project to the next section. Please note that these days/times use Sydney time.
Section (End Date)
White (Sunday, 6th of November)
Blue (Wednesday, 9th of November)
Black (Sunday, 13th of November)
Red (Thursday, 17th of November)
Green (Monday, 21th of November)
Artifacts (Thursday, 24th of November)
Multicolor (Monday, 28th of November)
Lands (Thursday, 1sh of December)
Overall (Monday, 5th of December)
And Some Links~
2010 Pauper Power Rankings - Result Thread
2010 Pauper Power Rankings - Voting Thread Thread
Current Result Thread
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
2 Faith's Fetters
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Temporal Isolation
5 Journey to Nowhere
6 Porcelain Legionnaire
7 Cenn's Enlistment
8 Sunlance
9 Pacifism
10 Recumbent Bliss
11 Aven Riftwatcher
12 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
13 Shelter
14 Kor Sanctifiers
15 Blinding Beam
16 Kor Skyfisher
17 Kor Hookmaster
18 Coalition Honor Guard
19 Kor Chant
20 Soltari Trooper
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
02 Guardian of the Guildpact
03 Arrest
04 Cenn's Enlistment
05 Journey to Nowhere
06 Temporal Isolation
07 Porcelain Legionnaire
08 Oblivion Ring
09 Aven Riftwatcher
10 Coalition Honor Guard
11 Kor Skyfisher
12 Kor Chant
12 Blinding Beam
13 Recumbent Bliss
14 Wall of Glare
15 Deftblade Elite
16 Kor Hookmaster
17 Shelter
18 Kor Sanctifiers
19 Goldmeadow Harrier
20 Noble Templar
Lanxal told me to make a list, and so I did. I might have ranked a few cards strangely, but that's probably because I've had good/bad experiences with them.
1 Guardian of the Guildpact
2 Faith's Fetters
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Cenn's Enlistment
5 Temporal Isolation
6 Journey to Nowhere
7 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
8 Porcelain Legionnaire
9 Pacifism
10 Bonds of Faith
11 Blinding Beam
12 Recumbent Bliss
13 Kor Hookmaster
14 Kor Skyfisher
15 Coalition Honor Guard
16 Aven Riftwatcher
17 Shelter
18 Kor Sanctifiers
19 Goldmeadow Harrier
20 Kor Chant
2 Guardian of the Guildpact
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Journey to Nowhere
5 Troubled Healer
6 Temporal Isolation
7 Pacifism
8 Porcelain Legionnaire
9 Coalition Honor-Guard
10 Sunlance
11 Bonds of Faith
12 Arrest
13 Kor Skyfisher
14 Blinding Beam
15 Kor Sanctifiers
16 Soltari Trooper
17 Kor Hookmaster
18 Gideon’s Lawkeeper
19 Kor Chant
20 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
Subject to change, but I feel pretty comfortable with this set of rankings.
Some notes:
-I don't see how lists can simultaneously have Bonds of Faith and still put Goldmeadow Harrier over Gideon's Lawkeeper. Is there a tribal justification I'm missing that doesn't favor the Human?
EDIT: I don't love this decision, but I'm willing to work with it.
-I'm going to stick my neck out there for Healer. It's one of the best non-top tier removal reasons to go White.
-Hartebeest is so low because I haven't really had a chance to play with it yet. I want it to be higher, but don't want to put it there until I have more experience with the card.
My Trading Post! Bunches of valuable EDH/Modern/Legacy stuff, looking for foil commons!
Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
Also, Mind Stone.
In other news, I hear Faith's Fetters is pretty good. Abstaining from voting since I've never drafted a Pauper Cube, but interested in seeing the results.
02 Guardian of the Guildpact
03 Temporal Isolation
04 Journey to Nowhere
05 Cenn's Enlistment
06 Oblivion Ring
07 Pacifism
08 Porcelain Legionnaire
09 Arrest
10 Cage of Hands
11 Aven Riftwatcher
12 Kor Sanctifiers
13 Recumbent Bliss
14 Coalition Honor Guard
15 Kor Skyfisher
16 Gideon's Lawkeeper
17 Soltari Trooper
18 Shelter
19 Stormfront Pegasus
20 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
02 Oblivion Ring
03 Guardian of the Guildpact
04 Cenn's Enlistment
05 Temporal Isolation
06 Journey to Nowhere
07 Arrest
08 Pacifism
09 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
10 Porcelain Legionnaire
11 Aven Riftwatcher
12 Kabuto Moth
13 Kor Sanctifiers
14 Squall Drifter
15 Goldmeadow Harrier
16 Prismatic Strands
17 Cage of Hands
18 Wall of Glare
19 Plover Knights
20 AWOL
Level 1 DCI Judge
Check out my Commons Cube.
Regarding Temporal Isolation, I feel that it is should be ranked higher than Oblivion Ring as it is cheaper to cast and can be played as an instant. I find with Oblivion Ring, I am mostly (Although not always) removing creatures anyway. In some instances I realize that Temporal Isolation is worse (Such as if you have a shadow creature, or if you need to hit a noncreature permanent)
02 Faith's Fetters
03 Temporal Isolation
04 Oblivion Ring
05 Journey to Nowhere
06 Cenn's Enlistment
07 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
08 Pacifism
09 Kor Sanctifiers
10 Porcelain Legionnaire
11 Blinding Beam
12 Kor Chant
13 Kor Skyfisher
14 Hyena Umbra
15 Castle Raptors
16 Cho-Manno's Blessing
17 Embolden
18 Auramancer
19 Sanctum Gargoyle
20 Zealous Inquisitor
And I also think that phybrid cards should definitely in coloured sections (as well as colourless cards with abilities that get better with that colour, eg Tangle Hulk, Immolating Souleater, Tangle Golem)
This does make some things slightly strange (eg comparing Spined Thopter to blue cards, but minimizes confusion.
02 Guardian of the Guildpact
03 Oblivion Ring
04 Temporal Isolation
05 Porcelain Legionnaire
06 Journey to Nowhere
07 Soltari Trooper
08 Kor Skyfisher
09 Kor Sanctifiers
10 Goldmeadow Harrier/Gideon's Lawkeeper
11 Aven Riftwatcher
12 Sunlance
13 Deftblade Elite
14 Totem-Guide Hartebeest
15 Temple Acolyte
16 Stormfront Pegasus
19 Noble Templar
20 Mana Tithe
Draft it on Cubetutor!
I agree with you on cards such as Tangle Hulk, Moriok Replica, etc however these are creatures that would generally be considered sub-par picks unless you have mana in their color. For example, it is uncommon to pick a Tangle Hulk and play it unless your deck contains green mana.
Cards like Spined Thopter, Porcelain Legionnaire are good regardless of whether you have mana in their color or not. I would say that more often than not, they get drafted in decks that don't even contain their color identity. I consider them colorless, as it is reasonable to assume that a player in any color may want to draft them.
I think this comes down to personal opinion of the cube designer though... I'm sure there's mixed opinions.
YES. THE PMS. THEY HALPED.
There have been massive issues and huge debates about this. It's too much of a headache to do. Outside of a project like this, different opinions are completely fine and can coexist. But not in a project; it skews results. There needs to be a line drawn, and it has to be something we agree to, even if it's not the first choice.
People. Cards such as Porcelain Legionnaire should be considered in their colour sections. Even if you don't personally think so, please judge them as such.
Agreed. I'll update the OP and post it here, as well as PM the people who listed both Harrier and Lawkeeper, to get it all smoothed over.
People. Functional or near-functional reprints should be considered one card, like Gideon's Lawkeeper/Goldmeadow Harrier.
For those that have only 1 listed, I consider them both. For those that have 2, I've sent PMs.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
02 Faith's Fetters
03 Oblivion Ring
04 Kor Chant
05 Kor Sanctifiers
06 Kor Skyfisher
07 Noble Templar
08 Temporal Isolation
09 Journey to Nowhere
10 Blinding Beam
11 Porcelain Legionnaire
12 Burrenton Bombardier
13 Shelter
14 Coalition Honor Guard
15 Goldmeadow Harrier
16 Stormfront Pegasus
17 Arrest
18 Recumbent Bliss
19 Puncturing Light
20 Whitemane Lion
I'm surprised that Guardian isn't #1 on everyone's list. My playgroup considers it to be one of the ten best cards in the whole Cube. Fetters is great...but some decks just flat-out lose to Guardian.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
Yep, I did. Thanks for the heads up! Fixing now.
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02|Faith's Fetters
03|Oblivion Ring
04|Kor Chant
05|Shelter
06|Blinding Beam
07|Temporal Isolation
08|Journey to Nowhere
09|Porcelain Legionnaire
10|Kabuto Moth
11|Kor Skyfisher
12|Kor Hookmaster
13|Fortify
14|Sunlance
15|Cage of Hands
16|Prismatic Strands
17|Stormfront Pegasus
18|Hallowed Healer
19|Burrenton Bombardier
20|Noble Templar
White is kind of weird, because a large quantity of its cards go in the aggro deck. Stuff like Benalish Cavalry and Youthful Knight are awesome in that deck, but if you aren't aggressive they're pretty bad. Do you rate them high or not? I decided to rate the archetype enablers high (kabuto moth, hookmaster, fortify) and left the bears off, because you can replace them pretty easily.
Also, there's only so much white removal that should reasonably fit into a cube. Cards like Pacifism in a vacuum are better than cards like Kor Skyfisher, but because there's a limit to the removal you run, most cubes won't use pacifism. I chose not to rate any removal spells I don't run. This includes Arrest and Recumbent Bliss.
Nobody is rating Sunlance. It kills most creatures and is very mana efficient. You all like Disfigure, but not Sunlance?
We've also talked about Kabuto Moth before. Everyone thinks it's mediocre even though it basically makes your creatures unblockable and it's very hard to attack into.
I rated it higher than you
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I agree with this for the most part, but disagree with your evaluation. I think Pacifism is in the top 3 Pacifism variants (loses out to Isolation and Fetters, but nothing else). That's definitely good enough to make it in, IMO. With that said, leaving Arrest and Bliss on the sidelines makes perfect sense to me (I don't run Bliss either, and I'm strongly considering cutting Arrest).
I actually don't run Disfigure, so that's my excuse. With that said, it probably is better than at least one other card on my list. I'll reevaluate it.
EDIT: Yeah, it deserves to be on the list way more than Aven Riftwatcher. I know people like that card, but I think it's far more annoying than it is actually good. List changed to reflect that.
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(Apart from those I agree with that list a lot)
Can't really comment on the healer, yet. I'm going to be testing the card.
In general, people seem to be rating removal too highly. That and Cenn's Enlistment. Don't get me wrong - it's a fine card and it wins games every now and then. It's just not nearly as good a finisher as pretty much any of the (admittedly few) other finishers in the cube. And it's hardly stellar early in the game.
I'd be interested in people defending these cards. It's not that they're bad - I just haven't had the same experiences with them myself.
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Yeah, that's true. That's one the reasons I don't rate purely aggressive cards very highly, because in general they're weaker on a card vs. card basis (exception being Porcelain Legionnaire), and in a P1P1 situation I really want to be taking a card that's high in power level and gives me options.
I love Pacifism. It's strong & cheap removal. It's mostly reserved for beatsticks that can't do anything except beat, but there are enough of those in my cube for it to be an allstar often.
Also, I agree that personal preference based on what you have in your own cube is pretty important to the composition of the lists. Rubin lists Temple Acolyte, Ratman lists Troubled Healer, you don't list Recumbent Bliss, neither of us lists Arrest (although my friend DarthWaffles swears it's one of the best cards. :/). I like that because it shows individual experiences, which is pretty important to get interesting results.
True enough. It's quality kill.
I'm a fan of the moth, although he's at the bottom of my Top 20.
Edit:
Well, Wall of Glare got booted for Kabuto Moth.
I rate removal highly because removal is invaluable in draft. It's splashable and it'll go in (pretty much) every deck if you play white. In a P1P1 situation, besides bomb, there's not a lot I'm going to be picking over quality removal, which I believe both Pacifism and Bliss are. Admittedly, the two removal spells you listed are one of the weaker ones, they're still important in stopping fatties from your opponent's side in the lategame. And really, given the choice between a good creature and removal, I'm going to go with the removal (exceptions exist, of course, and they've been listed in my Top 20 list).
Cenn's Enlistment is a bomb in our cube. It gives midrange and aggro decks a very hard time, clogging up the ground and forcing them to dig for evasive flyers or burn. It allows control to play both the aggressive and defensive role very easily and very quickly. From experience, it's been great, although maybe I'm just remembering the great times with it. Even so, I think it's definitely cemented up there in my picks.
Some cards I think you're overrating:
10 Goldmeadow Harrier/Gideon's Lawkeeper
15 Temple Acolyte
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Pacifism could probably be lower, but I'd still rank it very high. 2 mana is exactly the right cost for this effect, and while it's indisputably worse than Temporal Isolation (although I do love the only-in-Cube interactions where it's not, like with Ophidian), the cards are generally pretty comparable.
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Are you running both Geistflame and Lava Dart? They deal with utility creatures like nothing else. Sure, they're not white, but they still hose pingers. But yeah, that makes sense. Like how Claustrophobia is a better cube card than Arrest (because it's blue) but Arrest is just better in WU. The card isn't important, nor good relative to other removal, but it's still good.
I've lost a few games where I forgot that I could block shadow creatures with something that had been isolation'ed. And I've played it on my own Ophidians (though it's not in my cube anymore
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And sigh... I get why you'd cut Ophidian, but it still breaks my heart. Scroll Thief is a better design in every way, but there will always be be a soft spot in my heart for the Snake. I do also like the plays where Isolation keeps you from attacking profitably with Soltari Troopers, though, for sure.
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Always remember: Rarity changes don't balance cards that are overpowered in constructed formats.
I like Cage of Hands because you can put it on small creatures and not worry about having wasted it. It's really good against decks that have a bomb you have to save removal for, since it has value when you draw it, and later on can shut down their bomb (say a Twisted Abomination or an Errant Ephemeron). I run it over the other 3 mana pacifisms, and over pacifism, because it has a unique application.
I run Puncturing Light also, mostly because I don't want all of white's removal to be auras. It kills most creatures, and having an instant speed option is nice.
Fortify is an amazing card in an aggressive white deck. It's very good at finishing out games, and you can often steal a game when your opponent doesn't consider it. If things aren't going so well you can use the +0/+2 to get some good blocks in, so it's never really dead. It's one of the best aggro enablers imo, which is why I rated it highly.
In sealed today I played a match where lava dart killed two three drops three games in a row. Not certain on Geistflame, but it probably gets better the more problematic pingers are.
Same with me. Just in 360 blue is so unbelievably tight, Scroll Thief barely makes the cut anyway.
@ wolfer: Thanks, all the reasoning seems solid. I might actually try Puncturing Light.
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