I was looking at 10 each because of cube size. Right now my cube is just a pack short of supporting 13, and I want to get it to 16. In that case, I figure I could go to 10 of each color combination and not get hurt TOO bad... the exception being Blue / Red, which I hate.
Looking forward to the voting!
I think if you want to get to ten and are having trouble finding cards to fill those slots, then the best thing to do would be to check out other cubes around the forum. You might just stumble upon something you're not using that someone else deems worthy.
Voting on a top 5 not only keeps things simple and quick, but it's often very hard to find cards 8-10.
I was looking at 10 each because of cube size. Right now my cube is just a pack short of supporting 13, and I want to get it to 16. In that case, I figure I could go to 10 of each color combination and not get hurt TOO bad... the exception being Blue / Red, which I hate.
Even in a 720 (16 man) cube, I don't think you'd ever need 10 of each combination. I run 4 of each in my 500 card cube, so even if I bumped it to 1000, I'd still only use 8 of each color combination.
Do you want this top 20 to be based on P1P1 cards, or overall cube quality?
We went with what one would take at P1P1 last time around. But there's different aspects to take into account. Power level, castability, splashability, etc.
What I was looking for last time was basically a quantified list of cards that if I saw them P1P1, I would know that I should take them. Having learned the Top 20's after the PR's, my drafts have gone a lot better. For example, I never would've guessed that Flametongue Kavu would be Red's #1 card. I snag it when I see it, or when I'm on color, and the dude has not disappointed. Even your strong case for Mox Diamond during discussion has me taking it early and it's been awesome.
An ancillary benefit has been seeing cards listed that we may or may not have included in our Cubes. This wasn't something I had even considered, but it just worked out this way. And I don't mean cards in the Top 20 -- but even cards that just get voted for.
So to answer your question, I'm leaning more towards what is taken at P1P1.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Alright...I'm going to open up the new threads shortly if there's nothing more to add. I think I'm cleaning up some stuff that we had issues with in the first go 'round, and there's not much more to add to that.
Anyone care to add anything else before we get this show started?
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Anyone care to add anything else before we get this show started?
You're awesome.
I'd like something like a top25, I've found that these lists are good for finding the top echelon of the cube cards, but finding "hidden gems" may get lost in the mix.
What I did last year in the TURFs (after voting), was I would give the Top 20, then I would give the next 3-5 cards that missed the cut by a small margin. So in essence, the Top 20 was a Top 23 to Top 25-ish. I'll continue to do the TURF and provide the cards that barely missed making the Top 20 (in an effort to provide as much info as possible).
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
What I did last year in the TURFs (after voting), was I would give the Top 20, then I would give the next 3-5 cards that missed the cut by a small margin. So in essence, the Top 20 was a Top 23 to Top 25-ish. I'll continue to do the TURF and provide the cards that barely missed making the Top 20 (in an effort to provide as much info as possible).
How's that?
I'd like to add the TURFs were awesome last time, I hope tendencies, useless ramblings & facts continue to be a part of this.
I'd like to add the TURFs were awesome last time, I hope tendencies, useless ramblings & facts continue to be a part of this.
Done and done.
There are some really interesting things that happen during voting. Just when I was reviewing White...just...WOW. We had already voted on the 4 other colors and we were expecting Blue to be a powerhouse, but I actually think White's numbers spoke volumes. White had a ton of double-digit composite cards, etc. I mean, Yosei is a pretty highly regarded card, and it didn't even make White's Top 20. If Yosei is Red or Green, it easily cracks the Top 20. Go back to the OP on this thread and re-read the TURF from White, it really is impressive.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Library being #1 overall and Sol Ring #1 on artifacts with a perfect score surprised me. Deep down I think Library makes sense, specially drafting, but Sol Ring? It's an awesome card, but in a Draft environment I think I'd much rather have Jitte or Nevynirall's Disk (which scored surprisingly low on the artifact list). Then again it's just my opinion.
I was positively surprised by Survival of the Fittest and Recurring Nightmare. They take part in one of my favorite decks ever, and are great cards.
Also, great job with the votation and commentaries.
A lot of people consider Sol Ring to be THE most powerful card in the cube. For me, it's a very close second to Library of Alexandria, but they're both silly broken.
Library being #1 overall and Sol Ring #1 on artifacts with a perfect score surprised me. Deep down I think Library makes sense, specially drafting, but Sol Ring? It's an awesome card, but in a Draft environment I think I'd much rather have Jitte or Nevynirall's Disk
Our playgroup found that a turn one/two Sol Ring invalidates your opponents entire deck. Being two turns ahead on mana the entire game was far too insane for our tastes. I for one couldn't stand losing to a turn one Sol Ring even if my deck was well built and had tons of synergy. The final straw for me was losing to turn three Liliana, turn four Sorin while on the draw. These kind of plays aren't uncommon at all and how is someone even supposed to stop something like that? Can you imagine getting hit by a Plow Under on turn three while on the draw? Nice game, what does your deck do again? The worst part is that Sol Ring goes into any and every deck and requires no color commitment at all.
My point? Sol Ring is easily, EASILY top 5 cube cards and possibly even the best.
Our playgroup found that a turn one/two Sol Ring invalidates your opponents entire deck. Being two turns ahead on mana the entire game was far too insane for our tastes. I for one couldn't stand losing to a turn one Sol Ring even if my deck was well built and had tons of synergy. The final straw for me was losing to turn three Liliana, turn four Sorin while on the draw. These kind of plays aren't uncommon at all and how is someone even supposed to stop something like that? Can you imagine getting hit by a Plow Under on turn three while on the draw? Nice game, what does your deck do again? The worst part is that Sol Ring goes into any and every deck and requires no color commitment at all.
My point? Sol Ring is easily, EASILY top 5 cube cards and possibly even the best.
Yeah, now that you gave examples it makes a lot of sense. In some draft with an overall lower power level, I think I'd rather have Nevynirall's Disk or some other powerful effect in my deck, considering I wouldn't have a lot of interesting things to accelerate into. But in Cube, that's very different. Sol Ring really is a beating.
Magicmerl had this to say about Sol ring, when we were discussing this tonight:
"Sol ring gives you a 20% chance of just win, regardless of what else happens."
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Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
Library being #1 overall and Sol Ring #1 on artifacts with a perfect score surprised me. Deep down I think Library makes sense, specially drafting, but Sol Ring? It's an awesome card, but in a Draft environment I think I'd much rather have Jitte or Nevynirall's Disk (which scored surprisingly low on the artifact list). Then again it's just my opinion.
I was positively surprised by Survival of the Fittest and Recurring Nightmare. They take part in one of my favorite decks ever, and are great cards.
Also, great job with the votation and commentaries.
I'll give you an example from two nights ago...
My buddy was in BW Control and after having a conversation about how his off-color Mox Ruby should be in his deck (acting as the aforementioned "Mox Crystal", to drop and taps for :1mana:), he put it in and immediately made the following play with the help of Sol Ring..
Turn 1: Plains -> Sol Ring
Turn 2: Plains, Mox Ruby, Tap out -> Serra Angel.
Opponent never recovered.
Now it's very possible to say that the Mox was extremely important, but at worst, he's getting a 4/4 vigilant flyer on Turn 3 (rather than Turn 2) without it. And that's because of the Sol Ring. The card is ridiculous and it IS the fact that it puts you a turn ahead.
As for Library, yes. It is totally insane. I've had games where I was WAY behind, getting my ass handed to me and got a Library online and not only recovered, but won (with the help of a Garruk). It was a single draft where everyone saw the Library in action and despite not having as great a showing since then, it is the undisputed #1 Cube card. I went card-for-card with my opponent in one game, then once Library was online, I outdrew him for the game by 18 cards. I outdrew him by 24 in the next.
Both cards are totally nuts. I mean completely. And to be perfectly honest, it was 2009's Power Rankings that made me value the Sol Ring higher than I previously did.
I won't cleanly give Sol Ring #2...I'll give it 1B -- but Library is clearly 1A.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
I think if you want to get to ten and are having trouble finding cards to fill those slots, then the best thing to do would be to check out other cubes around the forum. You might just stumble upon something you're not using that someone else deems worthy.
Voting on a top 5 not only keeps things simple and quick, but it's often very hard to find cards 8-10.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Even in a 720 (16 man) cube, I don't think you'd ever need 10 of each combination. I run 4 of each in my 500 card cube, so even if I bumped it to 1000, I'd still only use 8 of each color combination.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
We went with what one would take at P1P1 last time around. But there's different aspects to take into account. Power level, castability, splashability, etc.
What I was looking for last time was basically a quantified list of cards that if I saw them P1P1, I would know that I should take them. Having learned the Top 20's after the PR's, my drafts have gone a lot better. For example, I never would've guessed that Flametongue Kavu would be Red's #1 card. I snag it when I see it, or when I'm on color, and the dude has not disappointed. Even your strong case for Mox Diamond during discussion has me taking it early and it's been awesome.
An ancillary benefit has been seeing cards listed that we may or may not have included in our Cubes. This wasn't something I had even considered, but it just worked out this way. And I don't mean cards in the Top 20 -- but even cards that just get voted for.
So to answer your question, I'm leaning more towards what is taken at P1P1.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
Anyone care to add anything else before we get this show started?
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
You're awesome.
I'd like something like a top25, I've found that these lists are good for finding the top echelon of the cube cards, but finding "hidden gems" may get lost in the mix.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
What I did last year in the TURFs (after voting), was I would give the Top 20, then I would give the next 3-5 cards that missed the cut by a small margin. So in essence, the Top 20 was a Top 23 to Top 25-ish. I'll continue to do the TURF and provide the cards that barely missed making the Top 20 (in an effort to provide as much info as possible).
How's that?
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
I'd like to add the TURFs were awesome last time, I hope tendencies, useless ramblings & facts continue to be a part of this.
Done and done.
There are some really interesting things that happen during voting. Just when I was reviewing White...just...WOW. We had already voted on the 4 other colors and we were expecting Blue to be a powerhouse, but I actually think White's numbers spoke volumes. White had a ton of double-digit composite cards, etc. I mean, Yosei is a pretty highly regarded card, and it didn't even make White's Top 20. If Yosei is Red or Green, it easily cracks the Top 20. Go back to the OP on this thread and re-read the TURF from White, it really is impressive.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
I was positively surprised by Survival of the Fittest and Recurring Nightmare. They take part in one of my favorite decks ever, and are great cards.
Also, great job with the votation and commentaries.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Our playgroup found that a turn one/two Sol Ring invalidates your opponents entire deck. Being two turns ahead on mana the entire game was far too insane for our tastes. I for one couldn't stand losing to a turn one Sol Ring even if my deck was well built and had tons of synergy. The final straw for me was losing to turn three Liliana, turn four Sorin while on the draw. These kind of plays aren't uncommon at all and how is someone even supposed to stop something like that? Can you imagine getting hit by a Plow Under on turn three while on the draw? Nice game, what does your deck do again? The worst part is that Sol Ring goes into any and every deck and requires no color commitment at all.
My point? Sol Ring is easily, EASILY top 5 cube cards and possibly even the best.
Yeah, now that you gave examples it makes a lot of sense. In some draft with an overall lower power level, I think I'd rather have Nevynirall's Disk or some other powerful effect in my deck, considering I wouldn't have a lot of interesting things to accelerate into. But in Cube, that's very different. Sol Ring really is a beating.
"Sol ring gives you a 20% chance of just win, regardless of what else happens."
Copy this sig to join the cause. Cuz, ya know, Wizards makes decisions based on sigs.
I'll give you an example from two nights ago...
My buddy was in BW Control and after having a conversation about how his off-color Mox Ruby should be in his deck (acting as the aforementioned "Mox Crystal", to drop and taps for :1mana:), he put it in and immediately made the following play with the help of Sol Ring..
Turn 1: Plains -> Sol Ring
Turn 2: Plains, Mox Ruby, Tap out -> Serra Angel.
Opponent never recovered.
Now it's very possible to say that the Mox was extremely important, but at worst, he's getting a 4/4 vigilant flyer on Turn 3 (rather than Turn 2) without it. And that's because of the Sol Ring. The card is ridiculous and it IS the fact that it puts you a turn ahead.
As for Library, yes. It is totally insane. I've had games where I was WAY behind, getting my ass handed to me and got a Library online and not only recovered, but won (with the help of a Garruk). It was a single draft where everyone saw the Library in action and despite not having as great a showing since then, it is the undisputed #1 Cube card. I went card-for-card with my opponent in one game, then once Library was online, I outdrew him for the game by 18 cards. I outdrew him by 24 in the next.
Both cards are totally nuts. I mean completely. And to be perfectly honest, it was 2009's Power Rankings that made me value the Sol Ring higher than I previously did.
I won't cleanly give Sol Ring #2...I'll give it 1B -- but Library is clearly 1A.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
Yeah, Sol Ring is sick. A similar situation that I pulled off one game was:
Turn 1: Swamp -> Sol Ring
Turn 2: Swamp, Tap out -> Phyrexian Scuta, Pay
53 life for the kickerI think after that I played Vampire Nighthawk and the game was as good as over.
You got screwed. You only needed to pay 3 life for the kicker.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Haha, yeah it was 3 life. Brain fart - I was thinking of Zombie Cutthroat .