I oftentimes hear people talking about the terminate and/or vindicate test on cube forums and in regards to cube at my LGS. Is this just the "dies to removal" argument? Is this something different? Does something failing this test, in your eyes, make a card unplayable? I really would like to know.
Like Patrick Chapin said: creatures are either Mulldrifters or Baneslayers. While there is a lot of emphasis placed on creatures that provide immediate value, there are tons of creatures that exist in Cube that fail the Vindicate test, such as the eponymous Baneslayer, Consecrated Sphinx, and Kaloninan Hydra. Failing the test is not a damning fault, but passing it does give a card additional credence when evaluating it for Cube inclusion.
Yes, it's the "dies to removal" argument. It need not apply to cheap creatures, because there's no fundamental tempo loss there. But once you start paying 5+ mana for a permanent, it's pretty rough if the opponent can untap, cast a cheap sorcery-speed removal spell and kill it, and leave you with nothing. So when creatures can guarantee you value against sorcery-speed targeted removal, that's passing the "Vindicate Test". It's not the end-all for creature evaluation, but something you should keep in mind for cube creatures that cost more than 4 mana.
Doesn't fail the vindicate test, does fails the terminate test. This is actually an important difference, and something I don't think people consciously think about when using those terms for the most part. Failing the 'vindicate test' is a lot more palatable than failing the terminate test, and as you say it's not a damning fault if you either having something like +2 cards coming or it's something crazy like Baneslayer or Kalonian Hydra. (Which I wouldn't blame anyone for not running due to those cards failing the vindicate test...full circle here lol)
Thanks for all the responses guys! I had a sneaking suspicion that this was essentially "dies to removal", although it is nice to know that there is an instant speed and a sorcery speed test.
At the core, it's always been subjective and turns more into risk/reward. Some creatures/permanents are just so game changing that it's worth the investment.
In high tuned cubes, that bar is very high and expectations are firm and usually never budge. Fledgling cubes that have a lot more randomness, weaker card states can get away with the outliers. (Example, my first cube had Mahamotti Djinn as a super star lol for being a huge creature with evasion)
You really have to evaluate it carefully or you'll be throwing out every card you have because it dies to removal. It is important to balance realistic cube expectations in your house vs what you see here on these boards.
Totally. While there is a ton of removal in cube, I think people in general vastly overrate how often people will have answers. A lot of the decks running theses 'basic' creatures (in this case, that solely means they are not armies in a can, nothing 'basic' about Baneslayer otherwise lol) are also running other creatures and spells that need answers, so a number of times the game will play out with back and forth in the early turns and Baneslayer or whatever facing an opponent out of removal. I don't think you can have too many of these creatures, because its no where close to zero that they don't have it before the creature can attack, but there are some creatures that are so dominant when you untap with them that it makes a lot of sense to run them and forcing your opponent to have the answer when you get to that point can be enough in a lot of games to win.
Keep in mind, not all "terminate test" evaluations should be given equal weight. Another aspect of this is how the creature is used. Specifically, what type of deck will it show up in?
A control finisher (intended for creature light decks) failing the terminate test is typically a bigger issue than a top end aggro/midrange threat failing it. And that's because your opponent can only run so much removal. And if your opponent had to deal with your early creatures, it's more likely they won't have the answer later in the game.
Even still, expensive creatures without immediate value tend to need to win/lock the game very quickly in order to justify the risk. So think things like Kalonian Hydra or Baneslayer Angel - the first is a 2 turn sledgehammer for 5 mana, the second ices many aggro decks on the spot if they can't answer it immediately. As someone mentioned above, lower power lists have more flexibility depending on the design constraints. If you are building a traditional power cube though, I would not include a lot of 5+ mana cards that fail the test unless they meet very specific criteria.
Another way of saying this is "Is this creature worth a 1-3 mana spell?"
A creature will pass this if:
1. It is cheap. If you spent just 1 or 2 mana on a creature and your opponent spends more for a removal spell then you win.
3 mana is a grey area here, though most creatures in the 3 mana slot will pass #2 or #3 as well.
Examples : Phyrexian Metamorph, Greater Gargodon, Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2. It is resilient. It has shroud, regenerate, protection, recursion. It does not have to be 100% immune to all spells but a large portion will do.
Examples : Thrun, the Last Troll, Angel of Invention (multiple creatures)
3. It has immediate impact. ETB abilities or haste.
Examples : Elesh Norn, Griselbrand, Thundermaw Hellkite
4. It is worth the risk. Basically these creatures fail the Terminate Test but you want to ignore it anyway due to the payoff.
Examples : Master of the Wild Hunt (removal for green, 1 turn wait), Baneslayer Angel (huge life swing ahead, and really efficient for a white creature),
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Doesn't fail the vindicate test, does fails the terminate test. This is actually an important difference, and something I don't think people consciously think about when using those terms for the most part. Failing the 'vindicate test' is a lot more palatable than failing the terminate test, and as you say it's not a damning fault if you either having something like +2 cards coming or it's something crazy like Baneslayer or Kalonian Hydra. (Which I wouldn't blame anyone for not running due to those cards failing the vindicate test...full circle here lol)
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In high tuned cubes, that bar is very high and expectations are firm and usually never budge. Fledgling cubes that have a lot more randomness, weaker card states can get away with the outliers. (Example, my first cube had Mahamotti Djinn as a super star lol for being a huge creature with evasion)
You really have to evaluate it carefully or you'll be throwing out every card you have because it dies to removal. It is important to balance realistic cube expectations in your house vs what you see here on these boards.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
A control finisher (intended for creature light decks) failing the terminate test is typically a bigger issue than a top end aggro/midrange threat failing it. And that's because your opponent can only run so much removal. And if your opponent had to deal with your early creatures, it's more likely they won't have the answer later in the game.
Even still, expensive creatures without immediate value tend to need to win/lock the game very quickly in order to justify the risk. So think things like Kalonian Hydra or Baneslayer Angel - the first is a 2 turn sledgehammer for 5 mana, the second ices many aggro decks on the spot if they can't answer it immediately. As someone mentioned above, lower power lists have more flexibility depending on the design constraints. If you are building a traditional power cube though, I would not include a lot of 5+ mana cards that fail the test unless they meet very specific criteria.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
A creature will pass this if:
1. It is cheap. If you spent just 1 or 2 mana on a creature and your opponent spends more for a removal spell then you win.
3 mana is a grey area here, though most creatures in the 3 mana slot will pass #2 or #3 as well.
Examples : Phyrexian Metamorph, Greater Gargodon, Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2. It is resilient. It has shroud, regenerate, protection, recursion. It does not have to be 100% immune to all spells but a large portion will do.
Examples : Thrun, the Last Troll, Angel of Invention (multiple creatures)
3. It has immediate impact. ETB abilities or haste.
Examples : Elesh Norn, Griselbrand, Thundermaw Hellkite
4. It is worth the risk. Basically these creatures fail the Terminate Test but you want to ignore it anyway due to the payoff.
Examples : Master of the Wild Hunt (removal for green, 1 turn wait), Baneslayer Angel (huge life swing ahead, and really efficient for a white creature),