In the past, there's been some discussion over creating a "cube skeleton" (discussions: here, here, and here). These discussion never really went anywhere. First, because there just weren't enough options for some spots in the cube, and so a skeleton wasn't that useful; you just played what you could. Second, because cube cards are often difficult to classify in a simple way (e.g., by mana cost) because they fulfill a variety of functions.
Now, 6-7 years laters, many of the holes we saw in our cubes back then have been filled. So I thought it might be productive to return to the conversation of what the structure of a cube, at least how we do it here at MTGS, might look like. To focus things a bit more, I'd really like to know how many cards at each mana cost do you think would be necessary to support aggro at 360. Let's keep it color neutral for now. In other words, in an ideal world, how many 1-drops are in the cube, 2-drops, etc. Split by creatures and spells if that's important to you.
It seems hard to keep this color neutral based on number of cards at each casting cost since not every color necessarily wants an equal amount of 1cc creatures. Though I would be interested in seeing what the "ideal" MTGS 360 skeleton starter list consists of.
There are so many variables that go into determining what your ideal 2-power 1-drop saturation will look like, that I don't think a blanket skeleton can be built that will just automatically work for every playgroup.
The CubeTutor average will probably be a good starting place though, since there's a lot of data and a lot of different styles of cube that get muddled into that mixture. May not want to fully re-invent the wheel on this one, since the end result may not even provide data that will be useful to you.
Won't we eventually get to a point where we don't want more 1-drops for aggro, or 2-drops in a particular color? I have to think this decision is partly based on how frequently those cards would appear in the draft. White in particular has a wealth of 2-power 1-drops. I don't run all of them, most people don't either. I basically just go on feel and seeing what people draft, and have found 10 aggro 1-drops feels good. That's at 450, and just based on percentages that would mean 7-8 for a 360 cube. You guys don't think that's a helpful guideline, "If you want to support aggro in a color, have about 8 1-drops for a 360 card cube"?
I think that's a helpful guideline, but I also think it can vary based on group and cube composition. At 555 I'm also not running all of the white 2 power 1-drops, but there are folks out there who believe in running every single possible 2 power 1-drop. Part of it comes down to "feel". If your aggro decks end up cutting those guys during deck building, then maybe that's an area where you can afford to lose one or two cards.
At 555 I'm running 10 1-drops in white. Only 7 of those are true 2 power 1-drops. The others are either scalable (Steppe Lynx, Student of Warfare) or utility (Mother of Runes). And, honestly, Elite Vanguard is on the chopping block. I think this is why it's hard to define a true skeleton for 360 cubes. Not all of the 1-drops are created equal and you need to make sure you're including not only the staple two power guys, but also cards like Mother of Runes that technically count as a 1-drop, but aren't specifically there to make aggro work.
I'd be more interested in seeing a 360 list compiled by MTGS members that says "These are the white 1-drops that make the cut at 360." I don't personally find the CubeTutor average lists that helpful because there's so many different types of cubes up that the results are sometimes a bit skewed. (Delver of Secrets makes the 360 list in blue and that card is terrible for cube.)
Won't we eventually get to a point where we don't want more 1-drops for aggro, or 2-drops in a particular color? I have to think this decision is partly based on how frequently those cards would appear in the draft. White in particular has a wealth of 2-power 1-drops. I don't run all of them, most people don't either. I basically just go on feel and seeing what people draft, and have found 10 aggro 1-drops feels good. That's at 450, and just based on percentages that would mean 7-8 for a 360 cube. You guys don't think that's a helpful guideline, "If you want to support aggro in a color, have about 8 1-drops for a 360 card cube"?
Ya, but that decision isn't based solely off of cube size. Like I said, there are a myriad of factors that go into determining what that saturation needs to look like for each individual playgroup. So the skeleton won't apply evenly to all groups that use that cube size.
Ya, but that decision isn't based solely off of cube size. Like I said, there are a myriad of factors that go into determining what that saturation needs to look like for each individual playgroup. So the skeleton won't apply evenly to all groups that use that cube size.
Number of colors you support aggro in. Ideal % of decks being aggressive in nature per event. Best, worst, and average-case number of drafters for your events. What format(s) are your events in. Drafter tendencies in your playgroup (how much competition over aggro tools?). Powered vs unpowered (increase in non-creature T1 plays). Non-creature 1cc aggro support...
There are a bunch of factors.
At the very least, you need to know what percentage of the cube will be seen in your WCS events, and what percentage of your decks you want to account for being aggressive. And those numbers will vary from group to group dramatically.
Average cube tutor list is probably not a bad place to start. The way I like to approach it is break down what an average deck would look like and work the math from there. That gives you a base percentage for each slot in your cube.
You can really get detailed with that if you want. Take each theater (aggro/midragne combo/control) and lay out what a typical deck curve looks like for each. Then combine that together to get some averages. Use that to determine what your cube makeup would be like. For example.
Lands: Depending on prevalence of mono color, this could be as low as 1 and as high as probably 8 in a typical deck. Average let's say 4.
1 cc: I like a slightly lower curve and want even slower decks to be playing 1 mana cards. So 3-8 maybe. Call it average 5 per deck.
2 cc: All decks want a decent number of these. Average 6.
3 cc: Again, high number desired as all decks need to cast things on this curve. Average 5.
4 cc: Aggro top end and even slow decks don't want an overload here. Range 2-5 maybe. Average 4.
5 cc: Only slow aggro/midrange and up even want these. Average maybe 3.
6 cc: Midrange/control only. Those decks want a decent number and might makeup 2/3 of your meta. Still don't run too many of these. Average 2.
Add all the averages up and you get 29 total. Then just divide them out. So 4 land /29 total is 13.8%. 13.8% of 360 is about 50. So 50 lands in a 360 is about right. 1 drops is 5/29 or 62 in a 360. If you want 1/3 of your meta to be aggro, you probably want 20ish aggro specific cards. Give or take. That's not 2 power 1 drops necessarily, but cards that favor those decks.
That's just a loose starting point obviously, but you get the idea. As others have said, it will be very group dependent and can change if you are pushing a lower overall curve. What I posted above is an average cube CMC of about 3. You may want it lower than that. I wouldn't go higher unless you are really pushing a lower power midrange type meta.
Now, 6-7 years laters, many of the holes we saw in our cubes back then have been filled. So I thought it might be productive to return to the conversation of what the structure of a cube, at least how we do it here at MTGS, might look like. To focus things a bit more, I'd really like to know how many cards at each mana cost do you think would be necessary to support aggro at 360. Let's keep it color neutral for now. In other words, in an ideal world, how many 1-drops are in the cube, 2-drops, etc. Split by creatures and spells if that's important to you.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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The CubeTutor average will probably be a good starting place though, since there's a lot of data and a lot of different styles of cube that get muddled into that mixture. May not want to fully re-invent the wheel on this one, since the end result may not even provide data that will be useful to you.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
At 555 I'm running 10 1-drops in white. Only 7 of those are true 2 power 1-drops. The others are either scalable (Steppe Lynx, Student of Warfare) or utility (Mother of Runes). And, honestly, Elite Vanguard is on the chopping block. I think this is why it's hard to define a true skeleton for 360 cubes. Not all of the 1-drops are created equal and you need to make sure you're including not only the staple two power guys, but also cards like Mother of Runes that technically count as a 1-drop, but aren't specifically there to make aggro work.
I'd be more interested in seeing a 360 list compiled by MTGS members that says "These are the white 1-drops that make the cut at 360." I don't personally find the CubeTutor average lists that helpful because there's so many different types of cubes up that the results are sometimes a bit skewed. (Delver of Secrets makes the 360 list in blue and that card is terrible for cube.)
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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Ya, but that decision isn't based solely off of cube size. Like I said, there are a myriad of factors that go into determining what that saturation needs to look like for each individual playgroup. So the skeleton won't apply evenly to all groups that use that cube size.
I wish it was that easy, but it's not. At all.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
What do you think some of the factors are?
There are a bunch of factors.
At the very least, you need to know what percentage of the cube will be seen in your WCS events, and what percentage of your decks you want to account for being aggressive. And those numbers will vary from group to group dramatically.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
You can really get detailed with that if you want. Take each theater (aggro/midragne combo/control) and lay out what a typical deck curve looks like for each. Then combine that together to get some averages. Use that to determine what your cube makeup would be like. For example.
Lands: Depending on prevalence of mono color, this could be as low as 1 and as high as probably 8 in a typical deck. Average let's say 4.
1 cc: I like a slightly lower curve and want even slower decks to be playing 1 mana cards. So 3-8 maybe. Call it average 5 per deck.
2 cc: All decks want a decent number of these. Average 6.
3 cc: Again, high number desired as all decks need to cast things on this curve. Average 5.
4 cc: Aggro top end and even slow decks don't want an overload here. Range 2-5 maybe. Average 4.
5 cc: Only slow aggro/midrange and up even want these. Average maybe 3.
6 cc: Midrange/control only. Those decks want a decent number and might makeup 2/3 of your meta. Still don't run too many of these. Average 2.
Add all the averages up and you get 29 total. Then just divide them out. So 4 land /29 total is 13.8%. 13.8% of 360 is about 50. So 50 lands in a 360 is about right. 1 drops is 5/29 or 62 in a 360. If you want 1/3 of your meta to be aggro, you probably want 20ish aggro specific cards. Give or take. That's not 2 power 1 drops necessarily, but cards that favor those decks.
That's just a loose starting point obviously, but you get the idea. As others have said, it will be very group dependent and can change if you are pushing a lower overall curve. What I posted above is an average cube CMC of about 3. You may want it lower than that. I wouldn't go higher unless you are really pushing a lower power midrange type meta.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/