This depends on you and the environment you want to craft, but I wouldn't consider any of those overpowered for an unpowered cube either. I run all of those except Everflowing Chalice and Basalt Monolith, and I don't have anything against those particular rocks either, a full cycle of Signets takes up a lot of space in colorless. Grim Monolith is the closest thing to fast mana I'm OK with running, but it does enable some ridiculous starts.
Wow signets are the ones you think are borderline broken? Over Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond? Hmm interesting. I'm just concerned as I'm also thinking about including Jitte and swords (minus body and mind). But my main concern is wanting a few artifact ramp so that the new colorless cards aren't difficult to cast. Some consider Jitte pretty broken in unpowered cube and that may be the case so we'll see how things play out.
Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are each better than a Signet most of the time, but they're only 2 cards. Running the full cycle of 10 Signets has a stronger impact on your environment and what decks can look like in your cube. There's a pretty wide variety of opinions on Signets and whether they are too good and devalue green ramp options, or not good enough because the fixing they offer is too narrow compared to 5 color mana rocks, or the ramp is not at a good enough rate. FWIW, WoTC as a rule seems to have decided that 2+ color mana rocks have to cost 3 and has not printed anything like the Signets or Talismans in quite some time, so that should give you an idea of how strong this effect is for only 2 mana. Checkthesethreads to see some discussion on Signets and other choices for 2CMC mana rocks. The mana rocks you give your players access do a lot to shape your cube's draft environment, so you should give this decision careful thought.
I've been very happy with the full cycle of Signets, they do a great job of enabling ramp and control decks in multiple colors, but I do like to keep a pretty high power level in my unpowered cube. I also don't think they invalidate green's identity as a ramp color. In fact, green ramp decks will often poach a Signet or two. However, it does mean that I hold 2CMC ramp cards to a higher standard in green because they are competing with the Signets. This means I don't run Rampant Growth or Farseek, and skew towards cheaper accelerants or green ramp that also gives card advantage like Cultivate.
One last thing to remember is that if you're going to run a lot of 2CMC mana rocks, it's very important to make sure that you also offer a good amount of quality artifact destruction effects at 2-3 CMC so that ramp decks don't dominate your drafts.
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Other than the broken artifact mana (Lotus, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, ABU Moxen, Mana Vault and maybe Grim Monolith) the others are all totally fine and probably quite important for most unpowered environments.
If you want to leave a signet or two in for some of the off colors that might want them, I actually liked that in my old cube.
Depends what you want - The expensive ramp mostly favors green ramp and other big spell decks; the signets and 2-mana rocks let 4-drop, 4-color good stuff midrange-y decks thrive.
Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are each better than a Signet most of the time, but they're only 2 cards. Running the full cycle of 10 Signets has a stronger impact on your environment and what decks can look like in your cube.
This is right on. I didn't really get this until watching LSV draft on MTGO, but you can see how highly he picks signets or cards that go well in a deck with signets. Because he knew signets were in the draft, he could draft decks that took advantage of them. Signets have the effect of making blue control better, pushing out some other strategies.
FWIW, I run both Mana Vault and Grim Monolith in my unpowered cube. I was worried when I put them in about them being broken, but haven't had any complaints yet. They have been good, but there's a lot of good cards in there like Skullclamp, Swords, etc.
If your cube is unpowered then the only artifact ramp you should feel obligated to exclude is Black Lotus and the five alpha Moxen. If you feel further that your artifact ramp is too good, then I would start by removing all 0 cmc artifact ramp. I did this recently in a cube that I was downgrading from powered 540 to unpowered 360 and found that removing the 0 cmc artifacts felt just about right. Just my experience of course. Also, I would avoid trying to do things like giving green or blue a ramp identity by means of signets. When that extra design weight is placed on a card like that it becomes difficult for new drafters to evaluate such cards.
Mana Vault is probably too strong, Grim Monolith is borderline. Playing a 6 drop turn 3 is so brutal in an unpowered environment, and while not impossible to answer it's really hard to recover if you don't have that answer. This is less of an issue in powered cubes as there are more decks playing ahead of the curve, but that's less the case in an unpowered cube.
And Sol Ring has no business whatsoever in an unpowered cube.
I agree with this. But funnily enough, it somehow never gets broken plays in our games. Perhaps we are simply bad or unlucky :). I am maintaining it in my unpowered 450 until someone complains.
Sol Ring is good, cheap and accessible. If Black Lotus was reprinted a bunch of times in Commander pre-cons and could be picked up for $2, I guarantee people would be running it in their unpowered Cubes.
I run Sol Ring in my unpowered Cube because my playgroup don't mind it, if you draft it and you get it in your opener, cool, your opponent has to beat you but also in unpowered Cube I can go Entomb into Griselbrand on Turn 2. Do you take that out also?
I think it is down to what is accepted in your group. I also think Sol Ring is better than Black Lotus.
I also run Chromatic Lantern, Gilded Lotus and Coalition Relic.
The thing is, you need a specific set of 3 cards to make Entomb into Griselbrand into reanimation spell good. Sol Ring is excellent with anything that costs 3 or more mana, and specifically anything that costs 4 mana as in most games you are not missing the second land drop, and then every turn after that you are still playing 2 ahead of the curve. When you are the only deck at the draft capable of doing this, then it's really really really hard for any deck to beat you at the table without a 2 card combo in your opening hand like you mention. Frankly I think your comparison speaks for itself--you're taking an effortless broken play in Sol Ring and comparing it to a specific set of cards that always has to bring a creature in. They're apples and oranges IMO, except the apples are dipped in gold and are fed to you by scantily-clad models.
The same would be true for lotus, but honestly probably in a worse way as the smack in the face comes one turn earlier. What other decks in cube without any other power can compete with black lotus->4 drop? Maybe they have swords or path for a 4 drop creature, but what about a planes walker? What about setting up multiple rocks for further turns? What about...the list goes on.
Basically anything outside of the power nine + Grim Monolith is fair game, these are just the ones that we enjoy. Coalition Relic is far and away the best probably followed by Coldsteel Heart. Pristine Talisman, Chromatic Lantern, and Prismatic Lens are the worst, but we like the utility of giving a bit of survivability to ramp/control and 5 color enabling that the bring to the table, so they stick around. Will be adding Mox Diamond to the list as well once I manage to track one down.
Sol Ring is good, cheap and accessible. If Black Lotus was reprinted a bunch of times in Commander pre-cons and could be picked up for $2, I guarantee people would be running it in their unpowered Cubes.
Including Sol Ring in my unpowered cube because it's a powerful $2 card was an early design mistake I made that I regretted the first time I resolved one on Turn 1 in a match. Read this thread to see me get schooled in detail on exactly why this was such a bad idea, but in a nutshell you need a lot more fast mana like the moxen and Mana Crypt to balance out the explosive starts that Sol Ring makes possible. Even though its price frequently dips below $2 TCG mid, I make a point of not listing it on the Cube Cards That Cost Less Than $2 thread, because I just can't recommend it for an unpowered cube.
Running just Black Lotus in an unpowered cube would be pretty unbalancing as well, but not quite as bad because it's only a one shot effect. Dark Ritual and Grim Monolith are as close as I want to come to having a Black Lotus in my environment.
My general rule of thumb for acceptable manafacts (and any other non-creature mana acceleration cards) in an unpowered cube is that I don't run any that can produce at least as much mana as their casting cost (unless they costs a card in addition to their mana cost). In other words, if an artifact produces one mana, it needs to cost 2, if it produces two mana, it needs to cost 3, etc. Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox are fine due to their additional costs.
I think Signets are perfectly fine in a traditional unpowered cube, but I wouldn't run all ten in a smaller cube. At 600 cards, I run the full cycle and also a couple of other 2-cost manafacts. Having the right amount of those helps blue control, ramp, Wildfire and the artifact archetype. And I never felt that they were oppressive for other decks or that they devalued green. As Spike Rogue said, while all colors have access to manafacts, green has access to other ramp spells in addition to them, so that it is still the premier ramp color.
The introduction of C-cost cards made me wish for a full cycle of Talismans. If such a thing existed, I would replace all the Signets with them. Not only would they make drafting around C-cost cards significantly easier, the pain would also help aggro decks race the acceleration. I am hesitant to make a split of allied Talismans, enemy Signets though, since that would seem to slightly disadvantage certain color combinations over others.
I'm building a 540 unpowered cube. I've been basically comparing wtwlf123, DrRuler, MTGO Legacy, and MTGO Vintage cubes to get a good baseline of staples and then have been making cuts. I'm currently trying to hash out the last remaining section of the cube which is colorless and lands.
I basically want the new colorless cards to not be painful to draft while not damaging the integrity of green. I don't want to have that mindset where my friends are asking themselves "why grab green ramp cards (cultivate, search for tomorrow, farseek, ect) when I can just grab all these brown ramp?" I suppose in a 540 card cube, it's not likely you're going to run into all that ramp in a normal 8 man draft but still.
I also saw some lists running the allied talismans and enemy signets. It doesn't seem like too Terrible of an idea.
It's hard decisions like this which is making me consider downsizing to 450. The only thing stopping me is the 4-player glimpse draft I've read about from Wtwlf123 sounds really fun. Also, trying to cut my colored sections to 70 cards each was hard enough...
Seems like most of the artifacts in people's lists are mostly ramp too
I run all those besides the signets and even grim monolith as well in my unpowered 540. Sometimes Grim Monolith feels really ridiculous but I am not too annoyed with it. Jitte is either just as or more dangerous more often so i'd guess those two would be the only things on my watch list.
I basically want the new colorless cards to not be painful to draft while not damaging the integrity of green. I don't want to have that mindset where my friends are asking themselves "why grab green ramp cards (cultivate, search for tomorrow, farseek, ect) when I can just grab all these brown ramp?" I suppose in a 540 card cube, it's not likely you're going to run into all that ramp in a normal 8 man draft but still.
As it was said above, this is an unfounded fear. Manafacts do not damage the integrity of green. This is especially true if you don't run the powered suit. In an unpowered cube, green offers the fastest mana acceleration in the form of its mana elves. And even its slower land searcher aren't hurt by the presence of artifact ramp. While the four other colors have to squabble over the limited supply of those, green can just pick its own land ramp cards and pick the manafacts at a lower priority. Thanks to its access to both manafacts and land ramp, green has the easiest time getting enough mana accelerators for a dedicated ramp deck. So, what your friends should be thinking is: "If I grab both green ramp cards and brown ramp, I get the overall best ramp. Sweet!"
Btw, you did convince me to swap my allied Signets for the five Talismans.
We play all the powered mana rocks in addition to all the best colorless unpowered ones... green is still fantastic and green's ramp/fixing qualities are far from irrelevant. The fear that healthy artifact mana damages green's validity has proven unfounded for our playgroup.
I also prefer the Talisman to the Signets in the guilds where they're available, though I opt not to run either.
Signets
Everflowing Chalice
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Basalt Monolith
Thran Dynamo
Worn Powerstone
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I specifically exclude Sol Ring and Mana Vault due to power concerns.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Thanks for pointing out Coalition relic Big Jim.
Anyone else have an opinion on artifact ramp?
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I've been very happy with the full cycle of Signets, they do a great job of enabling ramp and control decks in multiple colors, but I do like to keep a pretty high power level in my unpowered cube. I also don't think they invalidate green's identity as a ramp color. In fact, green ramp decks will often poach a Signet or two. However, it does mean that I hold 2CMC ramp cards to a higher standard in green because they are competing with the Signets. This means I don't run Rampant Growth or Farseek, and skew towards cheaper accelerants or green ramp that also gives card advantage like Cultivate.
One last thing to remember is that if you're going to run a lot of 2CMC mana rocks, it's very important to make sure that you also offer a good amount of quality artifact destruction effects at 2-3 CMC so that ramp decks don't dominate your drafts.
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Depends what you want - The expensive ramp mostly favors green ramp and other big spell decks; the signets and 2-mana rocks let 4-drop, 4-color good stuff midrange-y decks thrive.
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450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
This is right on. I didn't really get this until watching LSV draft on MTGO, but you can see how highly he picks signets or cards that go well in a deck with signets. Because he knew signets were in the draft, he could draft decks that took advantage of them. Signets have the effect of making blue control better, pushing out some other strategies.
FWIW, I run both Mana Vault and Grim Monolith in my unpowered cube. I was worried when I put them in about them being broken, but haven't had any complaints yet. They have been good, but there's a lot of good cards in there like Skullclamp, Swords, etc.
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Mind Stone
Coldsteel Heart
Fellwar Stone
To a lessr extent
Prismatic Lens
Sphere of the Suns
The new Corrupted Grafstone is interesting, but needs a card in the graveyard to function, so it's too hard a condition just to produce mana.
Yes I am at 450, together with Coalition Relic as the only 3 mana stones.
I agree with this. But funnily enough, it somehow never gets broken plays in our games. Perhaps we are simply bad or unlucky :). I am maintaining it in my unpowered 450 until someone complains.
I run Sol Ring in my unpowered Cube because my playgroup don't mind it, if you draft it and you get it in your opener, cool, your opponent has to beat you but also in unpowered Cube I can go Entomb into Griselbrand on Turn 2. Do you take that out also?
I think it is down to what is accepted in your group. I also think Sol Ring is better than Black Lotus.
I also run Chromatic Lantern, Gilded Lotus and Coalition Relic.
Modern: Jund
The same would be true for lotus, but honestly probably in a worse way as the smack in the face comes one turn earlier. What other decks in cube without any other power can compete with black lotus->4 drop? Maybe they have swords or path for a 4 drop creature, but what about a planes walker? What about setting up multiple rocks for further turns? What about...the list goes on.
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Basically anything outside of the power nine + Grim Monolith is fair game, these are just the ones that we enjoy. Coalition Relic is far and away the best probably followed by Coldsteel Heart. Pristine Talisman, Chromatic Lantern, and Prismatic Lens are the worst, but we like the utility of giving a bit of survivability to ramp/control and 5 color enabling that the bring to the table, so they stick around. Will be adding Mox Diamond to the list as well once I manage to track one down.
Including Sol Ring in my unpowered cube because it's a powerful $2 card was an early design mistake I made that I regretted the first time I resolved one on Turn 1 in a match. Read this thread to see me get schooled in detail on exactly why this was such a bad idea, but in a nutshell you need a lot more fast mana like the moxen and Mana Crypt to balance out the explosive starts that Sol Ring makes possible. Even though its price frequently dips below $2 TCG mid, I make a point of not listing it on the Cube Cards That Cost Less Than $2 thread, because I just can't recommend it for an unpowered cube.
Running just Black Lotus in an unpowered cube would be pretty unbalancing as well, but not quite as bad because it's only a one shot effect. Dark Ritual and Grim Monolith are as close as I want to come to having a Black Lotus in my environment.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I think Signets are perfectly fine in a traditional unpowered cube, but I wouldn't run all ten in a smaller cube. At 600 cards, I run the full cycle and also a couple of other 2-cost manafacts. Having the right amount of those helps blue control, ramp, Wildfire and the artifact archetype. And I never felt that they were oppressive for other decks or that they devalued green. As Spike Rogue said, while all colors have access to manafacts, green has access to other ramp spells in addition to them, so that it is still the premier ramp color.
The introduction of C-cost cards made me wish for a full cycle of Talismans. If such a thing existed, I would replace all the Signets with them. Not only would they make drafting around C-cost cards significantly easier, the pain would also help aggro decks race the acceleration. I am hesitant to make a split of allied Talismans, enemy Signets though, since that would seem to slightly disadvantage certain color combinations over others.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I basically want the new colorless cards to not be painful to draft while not damaging the integrity of green. I don't want to have that mindset where my friends are asking themselves "why grab green ramp cards (cultivate, search for tomorrow, farseek, ect) when I can just grab all these brown ramp?" I suppose in a 540 card cube, it's not likely you're going to run into all that ramp in a normal 8 man draft but still.
I also saw some lists running the allied talismans and enemy signets. It doesn't seem like too Terrible of an idea.
It's hard decisions like this which is making me consider downsizing to 450. The only thing stopping me is the 4-player glimpse draft I've read about from Wtwlf123 sounds really fun. Also, trying to cut my colored sections to 70 cards each was hard enough...
Seems like most of the artifacts in people's lists are mostly ramp too
Modern
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Dredge
Living End
Legacy
Lands
Btw, you did convince me to swap my allied Signets for the five Talismans.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I also prefer the Talisman to the Signets in the guilds where they're available, though I opt not to run either.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!