One of the strongest aspects of Conspiracy 1 was that it sold well and gave a lot of different cards that altered the drafting consequences for the game. Equally, there are other cards that do mess with differing aspects like Booster Tutor. The limitations for Conspiracy is that the game only works during the draft cycle of the game rather than during the actual part of the game. There is an expressed interest by some on Blogatog, Mark Rosewater's Tumblr site, for a new Unglued 3.
I feel that starting more of an active role in defining usable product and design that advocates for this format would be a better way to look at the intersection of different aspects that Unglued 3 can do.
Unglued 3
1. New Cube cards that deal with unused design space in the Cube world and other aspects of Magic that do not include Dexterity cards.
2. Weird cards that do strange things like Booster Tutor
Meta Supplemental Product:
1. Staple Designs (think Time Spiral cards)
2. "Coloring cards" that are blank or lined art cards that can be painted on or have marker used on them. Made for sole purpose of alterations to reprint some staples and other interest cards.
What are your thoughts on areas that can push WotC to make the Cube community better through product? Conspiracy 2 is a welcomed aspect, but there are aspects of the community that could use more support and cross cultural aspects as well. What are you thoughts?
There's Twitter for
@mtgaaron Aaron Forsythe
@samstod Sam Stoddard
@mark254 Mark Rosewater
Mark Rosewater Email: making.magic@hotmail.com
(Willing to punch emails to other people like Aaron Forsythe)
Essentially discussing a wish list and what we "want and need" is a good way to begin looking at the community itself and having more vocal participation in defining pro-Cube product as a lobbying effort. I feel that there is a lot to gain from collaborative efforts in a community to define for the health of a format. Look no farther than the Commander Community with having yearly released product. However, the Cube community has different intersections different from Commander.
While there is a lot of attention on Commander since the entry level barriers for Commander is smaller and requires only one deck. The push for better Cube product that intersects with the greater population and other interests builds a bridge that is beneficial to other formats. Such as the "coloring cards" concept that benefits not only Cube but other constructed formats and casual formats like Peasant.
Perhaps collating a list of ideas and then submitting a type of petition of sorts for product support in various ideas would work better? Or individual autonomous support for ideas can work.
So anyway I feel the wants of the format are:
1. Unique cards that define better the format itself
2. "Pimp cards" ranging from:
-Coloring cards/product that encourages altered art community
-New promotional arts that supports different aesthetics ranging from impressionism lands to manga art for Liliana of the Veil
3. Reprints for staples
4. Postmodern border reprints
5. Reprint product for expensive cards (Modern Masters, Eternal Masters, better quality Versus decks, ect.)
What are your ideas?
What do you feel we as a format need?
What sort of promotional product and support for pimping do we want?
There's some want for Unglued 3, can and how do we benefit if specifically pushing for an Unglued 3? Full art Planeswalkers and other such cards? A new super split card series like Who/What/When/Where/Why? What mechanics can we see addressed to place something new into cube design?
By supporting specific ideas, I feel we can get somewhere more as a community by pushing for some uniform good ideas that benefit all other players but also supplants our wants and specific unique aspects that are Cube. Encouraging individual action and community action is one of the ways we stand.
Where can we take this format to make it better and how can we communicate that better to the company outside of sales?
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print cube worthy cards, a ton of cards now adays are such safe boring designs that they will never see any cube play whatsoever.
conspiracy was a great start, but for good draftable cards, they have to be, well, good.
I would love to see some decent reprints of strong cards in a draft nonstandard set, but also new ones that make new archtypes and very interesting cards in general. I'm amazed that there is such design space filled with uninteresting chaff in general. Take for example a normal 2/2 bear for two, plain boring. We get one almost every set, why? honestly vanilla creatures should be done away with entirely unless they are incredibly efficient.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I would love to see some decent reprints of strong cards in a draft nonstandard set, but also new ones that make new archtypes and very interesting cards in general. I'm amazed that there is such design space filled with uninteresting chaff in general. Take for example a normal 2/2 bear for two, plain boring. We get one almost every set, why? honestly vanilla creatures should be done away with entirely unless they are incredibly efficient.
So a "Masters" series that isn't all reprints? I mean it could be cool, but it sounds kinda dangerous.
I feel like Frostdragon hit on an idea here that's different from "Print this Wizards (so I can put it in my cube)", and that distinction is about what the cube community needs to grow, rather than what individual cubes need to grow.
To me, that means getting more people interested in cubing, making popular cube cards more accessible, and exploring design space that cubes are uniquely suited for. Given the relative high power level of most cubes, standard sets will never be a great way to do any of these things. One idea I've seen thrown around before is that of releasing a gold-bordered cube as a kind of starter-kit for fledgling cube players. Similarly, a cube-themed draft set could be created - if Eternal Masters does well, perhaps future reprint sets will more heavily consider common cube archetypes and cube staples.
Personally I don't want wizards printing cards specifically for cube. The fun of building, maintaining, and designing a cube is that you're restricted to cards printed for other purposes. I enjoy the fact that I get to evaluate each set and product release for cube viable cards. If wotc printed a set that was "here's a bunch of cube cards" thereby basically forcing my hand, I'd lose interest.
Taking ABU duals off the reserved list would make cube and all other eternal formats that much more possible. Other than proxying, buying ABU duals is not a realistic endeavor for most, and to me they are one of the biggest keys to make a standard cube feel like a standard cube. Sure there is a lot of other fixing, but the ABU duals + fetches is one of the major keys in making all archetypes and decks a possibility in cube.
print cube worthy cards, a ton of cards now adays are such safe boring designs that they will never see any cube play whatsoever.
conspiracy was a great start, but for good draftable cards, they have to be, well, good.
I would love to see some decent reprints of strong cards in a draft nonstandard set, but also new ones that make new archtypes and very interesting cards in general. I'm amazed that there is such design space filled with uninteresting chaff in general.
On these points, I think you're absolutely right. In fact, I think the last block of sets was a perfect example. It's like the current design philosophy has gone from "let's make fun, wonky, generally safe cards for Limited, Standard and EDH (in that order)" to "let's just put together a crappy Limited environment and throw some chase cards in". The worst part is that we occasionally get flickers of more consistent, quality design in sets like SOI or Magic Origins, yet we have to sift through whole of chaff in between.
Take for example a normal 2/2 bear for two, plain boring. We get one almost every set, why? honestly vanilla creatures should be done away with entirely unless they are incredibly efficient.
This is where you lose me, though. I mean, I get where you're coming from. However, vanilla bodies are actually totally fine (for Limited and Standard), especially in certain colors where they can sometimes be hard to come by (ahem...blue) . The problem is that WotC throws so much subpar or downright ridiculous stuff into their new sets that basic designs like Bears are made to look like higher quality picks than they really are.
If I were to make a rule for WotC's products moving forward (that benefited cubers and non-cubers alike), it's that design teams need to approach each set from a cube-esc baseline/perspective of "no unplayable cards". Instead of putting cards like Chaplain's Blessing into a set, they should say to themselves "what actually playable card can we put here instead?" They don't even need to waste that much brain-power on it, since they could just find an old design and reprint it (maybe with a slight upgrade).
But yeah, WotC can print all they bears they want. If WotC's design raises back up to the point where straight vanilla cards are the worst things in a set (rather than A or B level picks), I'll be happy.
I would love to see some decent reprints of strong cards in a draft nonstandard set, but also new ones that make new archtypes and very interesting cards in general. I'm amazed that there is such design space filled with uninteresting chaff in general. Take for example a normal 2/2 bear for two, plain boring. We get one almost every set, why? honestly vanilla creatures should be done away with entirely unless they are incredibly efficient.
So a "Masters" series that isn't all reprints? I mean it could be cool, but it sounds kinda dangerous.
Why would it be dangerous? WotC has been inconsistent (and downright power-seeping) for so long that quality products (either decks or boosters) aren't considered normal?
No offense to you personally, Blal. I've just had so much frustrating arguments with people who've been misled to believe that the current design era we're living through is representative of a what the game should be, rather than simply what requires the least effort (and/or generates the best cash flow) on WotC's part.
I assure you, sets can have better overall quality and more interesting designs than BFZ block (or even SOI) without being anywhere near dangerous. INN block and RTR block are perfect examples. Even Scars block, arguably. (Most of the "dangerous" cards from that era were actually from original ZEN block).
Personally I don't want wizards printing cards specifically for cube. The fun of building, maintaining, and designing a cube is that you're restricted to cards printed for other purposes. I enjoy the fact that I get to evaluate each set and product release for cube viable cards. If wotc printed a set that was "here's a bunch of cube cards" thereby basically forcing my hand, I'd lose interest.
I don't think Wizards should produce Cube-specific products. I lost a lot interest in playing EDH once they started to support it with specific product. For me, the fun of casual formats derives from the aspect of making something unintentional out of a given product. By producing stuff intended for that casual format this aspects gets undermined.
Shadows over Innistrad and most recent sets proofed that the Standard sets offer plenty support even for a powerful format like Cube.
Getting cards more accessible, especially for newcomers, would be a very preferable approach on the other hand.
Reductive Rebuttal (with shades of strawman): So you guys would rather they print whole sets that might have nothing of interest to you than actually put some effort into designing good cards?
That's an extreme interpretation of your arguments, but still. Whilst I dislike the Commander products because they feel at once like pandering cash-grabs and misguided attempts at printing product for a format that WotC clearly doesn't fully understand/appreciate, I don't think they hurt creativity any more than event decks due for Standard. Obviously a certain amount of new staples will come out of them, but I'd much rather feel compelled to run new cards than feel as though WotC isn't even trying to design stuff that's of interest to me.
It's a balancing act in many ways. A set/series like Conspiracy, for example, actually does a surprisingly awesome job at striking said balance (certainly better than most Standard-legal sets). Yes, it includes a lot of wonky, often unplayable stuff, but it also features very interesting, unique designs with multi-format applications. And, of course, it gave us the Conspiracy card type, which has proven to be a cube hit. (I could take or leave the Constructs, as "draft matters" cards always struck me as a little too much like Un-Set effects and the bodies were generally worthless for gameplay.)
But yeah, to say that WotC should design with cube (or other specific formats) in mind just seems wrongheaded to me. Like, if WotC isn't designing these cards for anyone, what's to stop them from printing an entire set of unplayable trash?
Taking ABU duals off the reserved list would make cube and all other eternal formats that much more possible. Other than proxying, buying ABU duals is not a realistic endeavor for most, and to me they are one of the biggest keys to make a standard cube feel like a standard cube. Sure there is a lot of other fixing, but the ABU duals + fetches is one of the major keys in making all archetypes and decks a possibility in cube.
I'd challenge this, at least a bit. I've drafted and played with many cubes, the vast majority of which didn't have ABU Duals, and they were fine without them. Obviously there may be a certain handful of specific, landtype-matters cards that get worse, but I don't think anyone's format necessarily needs them to function. Also, this post assumes that a majority of people want to build/draft a "standard cube," and I'm certainly not convinced that's the case.
I feel like Frostdragon hit on an idea here that's different from "Print this Wizards (so I can put it in my cube)", and that distinction is about what the cube community needs to grow, rather than what individual cubes need to grow.
To me, that means getting more people interested in cubing, making popular cube cards more accessible, and exploring design space that cubes are uniquely suited for. Given the relative high power level of most cubes, standard sets will never be a great way to do any of these things. One idea I've seen thrown around before is that of releasing a gold-bordered cube as a kind of starter-kit for fledgling cube players. Similarly, a cube-themed draft set could be created - if Eternal Masters does well, perhaps future reprint sets will more heavily consider common cube archetypes and cube staples.
Whilst I don't necessarily want a WotC to try and cash-in on (or control/rebrand) Cube the way they did with EDH/Commander, I definitely think they should alter their design philosophy to create more cube-friendly cards in ALL new releases (including Standard-legal sets). If anything, reprint sets are one of the last places where this matters (unless they follow the MM1/VMA philosophy of actually printing expensive/staple cards en masse, rather than a handful of chase cards like they obviously intend). The focus should be on new designs that are easily accessible (and, if possible, draft). For better or worse, that basically means Standard, Commander and Conspiracy. The various Masters sets aren't going to reach a wide enough market to really matter as far as growing the cube community (IMHO).
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
I don't think Wizards should produce Cube-specific products. I lost a lot interest in playing EDH once they started to support it with specific product. For me, the fun of casual formats derives from the aspect of making something unintentional out of a given product. By producing stuff intended for that casual format this aspects gets undermined.
I don't think this would be a problem with cube the way it has been with EDH. If you don't like something like Conspiracies, you can just leave them out of your cube. If you refuse to play with something like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher or Blade of Selves, you'll still have to deal with random opponents playing it. WoTC can't possibly print anything that ruins your cube, they can only give you new tools to experiment with.
ABU duals may not be necessary, but man do they make cube decks run better when you have them. I can understand why they don't want to take ABU duals off the reserved list, but I think it would be really nice to see gold-bordered reprints for casual play.
On one hand, I don't want to be forced fed "cube specific" cards from WotC like they do with EDH. On the other hand, I can't think of anything like that besides Conspiracy cards (which are awesome).
I like that cube is a frankenstein of every corner of the game, so for me they just need to keep printing good, exciting cards. I think they do their best work in supplemental products such as Commander / Conspiracy because they don't need to design around the constraints around Standard. Commander 2015 may have not given us as much cubable cards as OGW / SOI, but the quality and the design of the cards are a cut above most cards from a traditional set, IMO.
Whilst I dislike the Commander products because they feel at once like pandering cash-grabs and misguided attempts at printing product for a format that WotC clearly doesn't fully understand/appreciate...
I snipped those two statements out because exactly why I think it would be dangerous. I don't want an anemic standard format focused on fulfilling the status quo while the strongest cards are only available from $10 per pack boosters. Having cards that "feel" real is important too, and I think cards designed to break into vintage would have trouble with that. It's dangerous in that it's toeing the line between what is and isn't acceptable, and while it would make good short term sales I think it would have a negative effect in the long term if they kept it up.
Perhaps collating a list of ideas and then submitting a type of petition of sorts for product support in various ideas would work better?
I wouldn't support anything like this. The best way for cube to improve as a format is to have Wizards continue to produce new regular content. I want Standard to be healthy. I want them to focus their efforts on the formats that keeps the game afloat. I want them to continue to expand new story lines and revisit existing planes. In short, I want them to continue to do what they're doing now. As long as the game stays healthy, they'll make new content. As long as they produce new content, cube will be able to grow and evolve naturally.
I don't think cube needs any exclusive supplemental product. I don't want them to print cards that will be exclusively legal in this format. I want my cube to evolve naturally with the new fun and flavorful cards that are released in each set, and I'd hate to see them detract efforts from evolving the future of the game to cater some exclusive product for this format.
What makes cube such a beautiful format is the fact that it's a collection of cards from across all other formats. It's a living history of the game. By building a product that's intended solely to exist in peoples' cubes, you'll lose that element.
I like what they did with Conspiracy. Just adding some fun to the drafting aspect can change up what happens in a cube draft enough that it keeps it fresh. Though I know that's not for everyone, I still enjoyed it.
Also, this Eternal Masters should hopefully grant me a few cards that I haven't had the opportunity to get yet.
I'm pretty happy with wizards current rotation of conspiracy, masters sets, and annual commanders. Conspiracy especially was a wonderful combination of unique new cards and unexpectedly aggressive reprintchoices.
My minor concerns with those products aren't really related to cube; just that wizards seems to have an annoying tendency to hit an initial product offering out of the park (MM1, conspiracy, comm2011), then, for some stupid reason or other, keeps ratcheting back the quality and value of subsequent releases (see MM2 for example).
Whilst I dislike the Commander products because they feel at once like pandering cash-grabs and misguided attempts at printing product for a format that WotC clearly doesn't fully understand/appreciate...
I snipped those two statements out because exactly why I think it would be dangerous. I don't want an anemic standard format focused on fulfilling the status quo while the strongest cards are only available from $10 per pack boosters. Having cards that "feel" real is important too, and I think cards designed to break into vintage would have trouble with that. It's dangerous in that it's toeing the line between what is and isn't acceptable, and while it would make good short term sales I think it would have a negative effect in the long term if they kept it up.
To your point, though, a strong argument could be made that WotC has already lost focus on making they're regular Standard sets consistentlyrics good. Between Commander, Conspiracy and a number of other products, WotC design is clearly spread a little thinnervous when it comes to Standard-legal sets. So that part of your danger scenario is already a thing.
In terms of designing cards specifically to be Vintage-level powerhouses, I think you're assuming (wrongly) that there's nothing in-between what this current design philosophy of extra safe, minimal effort and cards that scream "banned me". Mark talked about how the game as a whole (and Standard in particular) should be healthy. I agree. Where I imagine we disagree is that I feel the game isn't healthy right now. The up and down quality of the sets, combined with a sense that quality design has been made to feel rare (and strong or pushed design made to seem dangerous) is hurting the game. I also feel like the cash-grabs (Commander, Masters, accelerated rotation, etc.) aren't sustainable in their current forms and degrees.
The key, more than ever, is making sure current design philosophy--in sets that are most accessible--get people excited about the game in general and new sets specifically. If over-priced reprint sets and format-specific supplemental product are the only product people are excited about, there's a problem.
Whilst I dislike the Commander products because they feel at once like pandering cash-grabs and misguided attempts at printing product for a format that WotC clearly doesn't fully understand/appreciate...
I snipped those two statements out because exactly why I think it would be dangerous. I don't want an anemic standard format focused on fulfilling the status quo while the strongest cards are only available from $10 per pack boosters. Having cards that "feel" real is important too, and I think cards designed to break into vintage would have trouble with that. It's dangerous in that it's toeing the line between what is and isn't acceptable, and while it would make good short term sales I think it would have a negative effect in the long term if they kept it up.
To your point, though, a strong argument could be made that WotC has already lost focus on making they're regular Standard sets consistentlyrics good. Between Commander, Conspiracy and a number of other products, WotC design is clearly spread a little thinnervous when it comes to Standard-legal sets. So that part of your danger scenario is already a thing.
In terms of designing cards specifically to be Vintage-level powerhouses, I think you're assuming (wrongly) that there's nothing in-between what this current design philosophy of extra safe, minimal effort and cards that scream "banned me". Mark talked about the game as a whole (and Standard in particular) should be healthy. I agree. Where I imagine we disagree is that I feel the game isn't healthy right now. The up and down quality of the sets, combined with a clear feeling that quality design has been made to feel rare (and strong or pushed design made to seem dangerous) is hurting the game. I also feel like the cash-grabs (Commander, Masters, accelerated rotation) aren't sustainable in their current forms and degrees.
The key, more than ever, is making sure new designs (in sets that are accessible
) get people excited about the game in general and new sets specifically. If over-priced reprint sets and format-specific supplemental product are generating more interest (and better reviews) than virtually every regular booster set, there's a problem.
It is already a thing. A product like this is going to help how?
I think it's on purpose so that they can explore design space, because let's face it, it's easier to allow for variety at a lower power level. Setting the bar low allows fringe archetypes to be playable in limited. Granted they probably focus on that too much, but limited is what brings in the money and shaking up the eternal formats a whole lot isn't their goal. I don't know what your talking about with accelerated rotation though, the core sets went out every year previously. It's smoother now, not necessarily faster.
To your last point, this is a call for an expensive format-specific supplemental product that will likely be reviewed highly. I'm saying it's probably not the best idea for reasons including weakening the regular booster set. I can't remember, are we disagreeing?
I think it's on purpose so that they can explore design space, because let's face it, it's easier to allow for variety at a lower power level. Setting the bar low allows fringe archetypes to be playable in limited. Granted they probably focus on that too much, but limited is what brings in the money and shaking up the eternal formats a whole lot isn't their goal.
Again, I think you're arguing that there's no happy middle ground, but there clearly is. From 2009 to 2013, we had one of the best eras for design, card quality, creativity, and multi-format play. Were there some rough spots and outright mistakes? Yes. But on the whole, that period was far more enjoyable, far more diverse (and far better for the game) than right now.
I don't know what your talking about with accelerated rotation though, the core sets went out every year previously. It's smoother now, not necessarily faster.
Individual blocks (and cards) spend less time in Standard on the whole, therefore rotation is faster. Whether this is good or not is certainly debatable, but the whether it's happening isn't. (Saying it's smoother might well be true, but it's also a means of forcing players to buy more product more often.)
To your last point, this is a call for an expensive format-specific supplemental product that will likely be reviewed highly. I'm saying it's probably not the best idea for reasons including weakening the regular booster set. I can't remember, are we disagreeing?
I suppose I kind of ignored the OP to get on my soapbox regarding WotC's design philosophy as a whole. As far the OP's whole "start an email campaign to get a new line of product" angle, I certainly don't agree with that. Firstly, I don't think WotC needs a whole new Cube-specific product. Like I said, I think WotC just needs to up their game (and keep it there) regarding quality design. Secondly, in many ways the Conspiracy series is shaping up to be WotC's de facto Cube product anyway. Why make a whole new brand when that one already fills the niche? Third, if we should be positioning anyone for new/better Cube products, it's probably an accessory maker like UltraPro. I mean, a carrying case that doesn't suck would be nice (ahem...Cub3).
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I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
I don't think Wizards should produce Cube-specific products. I lost a lot interest in playing EDH once they started to support it with specific product. For me, the fun of casual formats derives from the aspect of making something unintentional out of a given product. By producing stuff intended for that casual format this aspects gets undermined.
Shadows over Innistrad and most recent sets proofed that the Standard sets offer plenty support even for a powerful format like Cube.
Getting cards more accessible, especially for newcomers, would be a very preferable approach on the other hand.
I agree with this. When EDH first started, it was so cool to sit down and see a general you'd never faced. I specifically picked Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker because it seemed so different from what other people were doing. I think, over time, EDH got stale. The commander cards created more conformity. I wouldn't want to see a cube product define what cube is. There's a plus in how most cubes here overlap 85+%. We can all talk about cards and essentially collectively design a cube format, but with conformity comes a bit of staleness. Pretty much any of the Legacy plants in supplemental products are cube contenders anyway, so I don't think we need a special product.
I'd be happy with them printing official proxies at this point. Like championship cards but maybe call it legends of magic and put the old cards that are on the reprint list. I am able to reproduce my own extremely high quality realistic looking MTG cards. However since the big hate-on-proxy makers that this forum went through, people who want a nice looking Gaea's Cradle have to pay ridiculous amounts of money for what in essence is a useless card out side of cube or maybe very friendly kitchen tables.
Which I find to be despicable. It is about the only thing I despise about magic is monetizing it.
I'd be happy with them printing official proxies at this point. Like championship cards but maybe call it legends of magic and put the old cards that are on the reprint list. I am able to reproduce my own extremely high quality realistic looking MTG cards. However since the big hate-on-proxy makers that this forum went through, people who want a nice looking Gaea's Cradle have to pay ridiculous amounts of money for what in essence is a useless card out side of cube or maybe very friendly kitchen tables.
Which I find to be despicable. It is about the only thing I despise about magic is monetizing it.
I get that there are legal ramifications and such, but the proxy-hate was frankly insane. I received a ban on discussing how to make proxies a while ago at this point, and if you find that post it's kinda laughable that I received a ban other than from a "please don't sue us, see? we're on your side!" standpoint. People can use the knowledge for bad to make their own cards and sell them or some *****, sure, but people can also use chemistry to make bombs and yet I still had to sit through ******* 10th grade chemistry class like everyone else.
I don't agree that monetizing magic is a bad thing--they have to make money in order to want to print more cards, and people need a reason to buy them other than 'they're fun'--but re-creating cards for my own personal use and talking about the methods that make it obvious that it's not a proxy but still looking good should not be something that's shunned.
When it gets to the point of separating gamers because of class and income discrepancies that's when it went to far. When originally Garfield wanted a game that was highly inclusive. But hey, bully for them all the people who can afford a 300.00 single card for their cube. That is of course if you just want to print out the typical 72 dpi (or maybe even lower) trash proxies that even this site links to when you use the [./card] tag from the many sites out there and cut them out and put them into sleeves. Sure, it'll work, and it does it's job of make sure anyone who sees it knows you are that much less of a person for doing it.
As though some how being financially challenged and being artistically anal can't go hand in hand :).
It's a tired argument of course. I never buy retail magic cards when I need to buy magic cards. It's singles only, 2ndary market. Wizards made their money, they won't more from me. I'm not alone in the feeling either, buying boosters is just a rip of. I would however buy legit championship card decks. They were before their time when they were first printed. Now if they were printed it would be quite a nice bit of cash for WOTC.
Eh, I have no problem with the costs of the cards--supply and demand, there needs to be a reason to buy cards i.e. collectibility/maintained value over time/, etc., there needs to be a market so wizards continues to have a reason to print cards, etc.--I just don't like how I can't talk about making my own cards for my own use without having to worry about receiving a ban or having to pay court fees for some garbage if that at all.
I don't really care what people think about me for printing proxies--if they really think Im much less of a person for the low-quality I make, then am I really the lesser man in that scenario?--but it's annoying that we can't discuss technique if I'm looking to improve what Im doing.
I think a supplemental product printed in an attempt to make expensive cards like Gaea's Cradle available for casual players, would still end up being more expensive than desired. The idea would be that they'd create this product and include X amount of reprints with gold borders or whatever for an affordable MSRP. The problem would be that WotC wouldn't market this in big box stores because it's not new and shiny. It's not something that a kid will see on the shelf and ask their parents to get for them. It's a product with a very specific target audience, so not only would it be marketed for sale at LGS, but they probably wouldn't print a large amount of it, and any suggested MSRP would end up being a pipe dream. "Retails for 24.99? Sorry, our shop only got a few in. Starts out at 50." And a couple years down the road? Forget about it. As cubers, EDHers, and casual folk buy it out, the price just goes up and you're back at square one. Granted, if Gaea's Cradle is retailing for 140, you'd probably be able to pick up a gold bordered version for maybe less than half that, which is good, but is it good enough? Is that really what's desired?
I think this is an interesting discussion. After reading some of the responses I can agree with not being for cube specific sets, although Conspiracy was my favorite set in the past 4 years. It added an incredibly different element to my cube and I am even more excited for the sequel to come out.
I think I fall under the commander argument, many people lost interest. I do like the idea that they create EDH cards and Cube cards in normal sets now as it is, and maybe a bit more in supplemental sets like conspiracy but anything more would probably be overkill. Grassroots formats don't need direct help from big brother just acknowledgement and the occasional nod.
I'm not going to speak on the reserve list discussion at this point everyone just looks like this guy continuing that conversation.
I feel that starting more of an active role in defining usable product and design that advocates for this format would be a better way to look at the intersection of different aspects that Unglued 3 can do.
Unglued 3
1. New Cube cards that deal with unused design space in the Cube world and other aspects of Magic that do not include Dexterity cards.
2. Weird cards that do strange things like Booster Tutor
Meta Supplemental Product:
1. Staple Designs (think Time Spiral cards)
2. "Coloring cards" that are blank or lined art cards that can be painted on or have marker used on them. Made for sole purpose of alterations to reprint some staples and other interest cards.
What are your thoughts on areas that can push WotC to make the Cube community better through product? Conspiracy 2 is a welcomed aspect, but there are aspects of the community that could use more support and cross cultural aspects as well. What are you thoughts?
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@mtgaaron Aaron Forsythe
@samstod Sam Stoddard
@mark254 Mark Rosewater
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(Willing to punch emails to other people like Aaron Forsythe)
Essentially discussing a wish list and what we "want and need" is a good way to begin looking at the community itself and having more vocal participation in defining pro-Cube product as a lobbying effort. I feel that there is a lot to gain from collaborative efforts in a community to define for the health of a format. Look no farther than the Commander Community with having yearly released product. However, the Cube community has different intersections different from Commander.
While there is a lot of attention on Commander since the entry level barriers for Commander is smaller and requires only one deck. The push for better Cube product that intersects with the greater population and other interests builds a bridge that is beneficial to other formats. Such as the "coloring cards" concept that benefits not only Cube but other constructed formats and casual formats like Peasant.
Perhaps collating a list of ideas and then submitting a type of petition of sorts for product support in various ideas would work better? Or individual autonomous support for ideas can work.
So anyway I feel the wants of the format are:
1. Unique cards that define better the format itself
2. "Pimp cards" ranging from:
-Coloring cards/product that encourages altered art community
-New promotional arts that supports different aesthetics ranging from impressionism lands to manga art for Liliana of the Veil
3. Reprints for staples
4. Postmodern border reprints
5. Reprint product for expensive cards (Modern Masters, Eternal Masters, better quality Versus decks, ect.)
What are your ideas?
What do you feel we as a format need?
What sort of promotional product and support for pimping do we want?
There's some want for Unglued 3, can and how do we benefit if specifically pushing for an Unglued 3? Full art Planeswalkers and other such cards? A new super split card series like Who/What/When/Where/Why? What mechanics can we see addressed to place something new into cube design?
By supporting specific ideas, I feel we can get somewhere more as a community by pushing for some uniform good ideas that benefit all other players but also supplants our wants and specific unique aspects that are Cube. Encouraging individual action and community action is one of the ways we stand.
Where can we take this format to make it better and how can we communicate that better to the company outside of sales?
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conspiracy was a great start, but for good draftable cards, they have to be, well, good.
I would love to see some decent reprints of strong cards in a draft nonstandard set, but also new ones that make new archtypes and very interesting cards in general. I'm amazed that there is such design space filled with uninteresting chaff in general. Take for example a normal 2/2 bear for two, plain boring. We get one almost every set, why? honestly vanilla creatures should be done away with entirely unless they are incredibly efficient.
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RWGHazezon Flicker
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So a "Masters" series that isn't all reprints? I mean it could be cool, but it sounds kinda dangerous.
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To me, that means getting more people interested in cubing, making popular cube cards more accessible, and exploring design space that cubes are uniquely suited for. Given the relative high power level of most cubes, standard sets will never be a great way to do any of these things. One idea I've seen thrown around before is that of releasing a gold-bordered cube as a kind of starter-kit for fledgling cube players. Similarly, a cube-themed draft set could be created - if Eternal Masters does well, perhaps future reprint sets will more heavily consider common cube archetypes and cube staples.
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On these points, I think you're absolutely right. In fact, I think the last block of sets was a perfect example. It's like the current design philosophy has gone from "let's make fun, wonky, generally safe cards for Limited, Standard and EDH (in that order)" to "let's just put together a crappy Limited environment and throw some chase cards in". The worst part is that we occasionally get flickers of more consistent, quality design in sets like SOI or Magic Origins, yet we have to sift through whole of chaff in between.
This is where you lose me, though. I mean, I get where you're coming from. However, vanilla bodies are actually totally fine (for Limited and Standard), especially in certain colors where they can sometimes be hard to come by (ahem...blue) . The problem is that WotC throws so much subpar or downright ridiculous stuff into their new sets that basic designs like Bears are made to look like higher quality picks than they really are.
If I were to make a rule for WotC's products moving forward (that benefited cubers and non-cubers alike), it's that design teams need to approach each set from a cube-esc baseline/perspective of "no unplayable cards". Instead of putting cards like Chaplain's Blessing into a set, they should say to themselves "what actually playable card can we put here instead?" They don't even need to waste that much brain-power on it, since they could just find an old design and reprint it (maybe with a slight upgrade).
But yeah, WotC can print all they bears they want. If WotC's design raises back up to the point where straight vanilla cards are the worst things in a set (rather than A or B level picks), I'll be happy.
Why would it be dangerous? WotC has been inconsistent (and downright power-seeping) for so long that quality products (either decks or boosters) aren't considered normal?
No offense to you personally, Blal. I've just had so much frustrating arguments with people who've been misled to believe that the current design era we're living through is representative of a what the game should be, rather than simply what requires the least effort (and/or generates the best cash flow) on WotC's part.
I assure you, sets can have better overall quality and more interesting designs than BFZ block (or even SOI) without being anywhere near dangerous. INN block and RTR block are perfect examples. Even Scars block, arguably. (Most of the "dangerous" cards from that era were actually from original ZEN block).
I'd probably suggest black 5-drops that tried harder to pass the Terminate test.
Reductive Rebuttal (with shades of strawman): So you guys would rather they print whole sets that might have nothing of interest to you than actually put some effort into designing good cards?
That's an extreme interpretation of your arguments, but still. Whilst I dislike the Commander products because they feel at once like pandering cash-grabs and misguided attempts at printing product for a format that WotC clearly doesn't fully understand/appreciate, I don't think they hurt creativity any more than event decks due for Standard. Obviously a certain amount of new staples will come out of them, but I'd much rather feel compelled to run new cards than feel as though WotC isn't even trying to design stuff that's of interest to me.
It's a balancing act in many ways. A set/series like Conspiracy, for example, actually does a surprisingly awesome job at striking said balance (certainly better than most Standard-legal sets). Yes, it includes a lot of wonky, often unplayable stuff, but it also features very interesting, unique designs with multi-format applications. And, of course, it gave us the Conspiracy card type, which has proven to be a cube hit. (I could take or leave the Constructs, as "draft matters" cards always struck me as a little too much like Un-Set effects and the bodies were generally worthless for gameplay.)
But yeah, to say that WotC should design with cube (or other specific formats) in mind just seems wrongheaded to me. Like, if WotC isn't designing these cards for anyone, what's to stop them from printing an entire set of unplayable trash?
I'd challenge this, at least a bit. I've drafted and played with many cubes, the vast majority of which didn't have ABU Duals, and they were fine without them. Obviously there may be a certain handful of specific, landtype-matters cards that get worse, but I don't think anyone's format necessarily needs them to function. Also, this post assumes that a majority of people want to build/draft a "standard cube," and I'm certainly not convinced that's the case.
Whilst I don't necessarily want a WotC to try and cash-in on (or control/rebrand) Cube the way they did with EDH/Commander, I definitely think they should alter their design philosophy to create more cube-friendly cards in ALL new releases (including Standard-legal sets). If anything, reprint sets are one of the last places where this matters (unless they follow the MM1/VMA philosophy of actually printing expensive/staple cards en masse, rather than a handful of chase cards like they obviously intend). The focus should be on new designs that are easily accessible (and, if possible, draft). For better or worse, that basically means Standard, Commander and Conspiracy. The various Masters sets aren't going to reach a wide enough market to really matter as far as growing the cube community (IMHO).
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
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I don't think this would be a problem with cube the way it has been with EDH. If you don't like something like Conspiracies, you can just leave them out of your cube. If you refuse to play with something like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher or Blade of Selves, you'll still have to deal with random opponents playing it. WoTC can't possibly print anything that ruins your cube, they can only give you new tools to experiment with.
ABU duals may not be necessary, but man do they make cube decks run better when you have them. I can understand why they don't want to take ABU duals off the reserved list, but I think it would be really nice to see gold-bordered reprints for casual play.
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I like that cube is a frankenstein of every corner of the game, so for me they just need to keep printing good, exciting cards. I think they do their best work in supplemental products such as Commander / Conspiracy because they don't need to design around the constraints around Standard. Commander 2015 may have not given us as much cubable cards as OGW / SOI, but the quality and the design of the cards are a cut above most cards from a traditional set, IMO.
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I snipped those two statements out because exactly why I think it would be dangerous. I don't want an anemic standard format focused on fulfilling the status quo while the strongest cards are only available from $10 per pack boosters. Having cards that "feel" real is important too, and I think cards designed to break into vintage would have trouble with that. It's dangerous in that it's toeing the line between what is and isn't acceptable, and while it would make good short term sales I think it would have a negative effect in the long term if they kept it up.
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I wouldn't support anything like this. The best way for cube to improve as a format is to have Wizards continue to produce new regular content. I want Standard to be healthy. I want them to focus their efforts on the formats that keeps the game afloat. I want them to continue to expand new story lines and revisit existing planes. In short, I want them to continue to do what they're doing now. As long as the game stays healthy, they'll make new content. As long as they produce new content, cube will be able to grow and evolve naturally.
I don't think cube needs any exclusive supplemental product. I don't want them to print cards that will be exclusively legal in this format. I want my cube to evolve naturally with the new fun and flavorful cards that are released in each set, and I'd hate to see them detract efforts from evolving the future of the game to cater some exclusive product for this format.
What makes cube such a beautiful format is the fact that it's a collection of cards from across all other formats. It's a living history of the game. By building a product that's intended solely to exist in peoples' cubes, you'll lose that element.
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Also, this Eternal Masters should hopefully grant me a few cards that I haven't had the opportunity to get yet.
My minor concerns with those products aren't really related to cube; just that wizards seems to have an annoying tendency to hit an initial product offering out of the park (MM1, conspiracy, comm2011), then, for some stupid reason or other, keeps ratcheting back the quality and value of subsequent releases (see MM2 for example).
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To your point, though, a strong argument could be made that WotC has already lost focus on making they're regular Standard sets consistentlyrics good. Between Commander, Conspiracy and a number of other products, WotC design is clearly spread a little thinnervous when it comes to Standard-legal sets. So that part of your danger scenario is already a thing.
In terms of designing cards specifically to be Vintage-level powerhouses, I think you're assuming (wrongly) that there's nothing in-between what this current design philosophy of extra safe, minimal effort and cards that scream "banned me". Mark talked about how the game as a whole (and Standard in particular) should be healthy. I agree. Where I imagine we disagree is that I feel the game isn't healthy right now. The up and down quality of the sets, combined with a sense that quality design has been made to feel rare (and strong or pushed design made to seem dangerous) is hurting the game. I also feel like the cash-grabs (Commander, Masters, accelerated rotation, etc.) aren't sustainable in their current forms and degrees.
The key, more than ever, is making sure current design philosophy--in sets that are most accessible--get people excited about the game in general and new sets specifically. If over-priced reprint sets and format-specific supplemental product are the only product people are excited about, there's a problem.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
It is already a thing. A product like this is going to help how?
I think it's on purpose so that they can explore design space, because let's face it, it's easier to allow for variety at a lower power level. Setting the bar low allows fringe archetypes to be playable in limited. Granted they probably focus on that too much, but limited is what brings in the money and shaking up the eternal formats a whole lot isn't their goal. I don't know what your talking about with accelerated rotation though, the core sets went out every year previously. It's smoother now, not necessarily faster.
To your last point, this is a call for an expensive format-specific supplemental product that will likely be reviewed highly. I'm saying it's probably not the best idea for reasons including weakening the regular booster set. I can't remember, are we disagreeing?
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Again, I think you're arguing that there's no happy middle ground, but there clearly is. From 2009 to 2013, we had one of the best eras for design, card quality, creativity, and multi-format play. Were there some rough spots and outright mistakes? Yes. But on the whole, that period was far more enjoyable, far more diverse (and far better for the game) than right now.
Individual blocks (and cards) spend less time in Standard on the whole, therefore rotation is faster. Whether this is good or not is certainly debatable, but the whether it's happening isn't. (Saying it's smoother might well be true, but it's also a means of forcing players to buy more product more often.)
I suppose I kind of ignored the OP to get on my soapbox regarding WotC's design philosophy as a whole. As far the OP's whole "start an email campaign to get a new line of product" angle, I certainly don't agree with that. Firstly, I don't think WotC needs a whole new Cube-specific product. Like I said, I think WotC just needs to up their game (and keep it there) regarding quality design. Secondly, in many ways the Conspiracy series is shaping up to be WotC's de facto Cube product anyway. Why make a whole new brand when that one already fills the niche? Third, if we should be positioning anyone for new/better Cube products, it's probably an accessory maker like UltraPro. I mean, a carrying case that doesn't suck would be nice (ahem...Cub3).
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
I agree with this. When EDH first started, it was so cool to sit down and see a general you'd never faced. I specifically picked Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker because it seemed so different from what other people were doing. I think, over time, EDH got stale. The commander cards created more conformity. I wouldn't want to see a cube product define what cube is. There's a plus in how most cubes here overlap 85+%. We can all talk about cards and essentially collectively design a cube format, but with conformity comes a bit of staleness. Pretty much any of the Legacy plants in supplemental products are cube contenders anyway, so I don't think we need a special product.
Which I find to be despicable. It is about the only thing I despise about magic is monetizing it.
I get that there are legal ramifications and such, but the proxy-hate was frankly insane. I received a ban on discussing how to make proxies a while ago at this point, and if you find that post it's kinda laughable that I received a ban other than from a "please don't sue us, see? we're on your side!" standpoint. People can use the knowledge for bad to make their own cards and sell them or some *****, sure, but people can also use chemistry to make bombs and yet I still had to sit through ******* 10th grade chemistry class like everyone else.
I don't agree that monetizing magic is a bad thing--they have to make money in order to want to print more cards, and people need a reason to buy them other than 'they're fun'--but re-creating cards for my own personal use and talking about the methods that make it obvious that it's not a proxy but still looking good should not be something that's shunned.
But hey, not my forum, not my rules.
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As though some how being financially challenged and being artistically anal can't go hand in hand :).
It's a tired argument of course. I never buy retail magic cards when I need to buy magic cards. It's singles only, 2ndary market. Wizards made their money, they won't more from me. I'm not alone in the feeling either, buying boosters is just a rip of. I would however buy legit championship card decks. They were before their time when they were first printed. Now if they were printed it would be quite a nice bit of cash for WOTC.
I don't really care what people think about me for printing proxies--if they really think Im much less of a person for the low-quality I make, then am I really the lesser man in that scenario?--but it's annoying that we can't discuss technique if I'm looking to improve what Im doing.
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I think I fall under the commander argument, many people lost interest. I do like the idea that they create EDH cards and Cube cards in normal sets now as it is, and maybe a bit more in supplemental sets like conspiracy but anything more would probably be overkill. Grassroots formats don't need direct help from big brother just acknowledgement and the occasional nod.
I'm not going to speak on the reserve list discussion at this point everyone just looks like this guy continuing that conversation.
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