Hello, I'm making my first cube and want it to be 360-540 cards but I can't really find a list a like. I like the MTGO Legacy Cube because it seems like it would be balanced but I feel that 600 cards is way too much as I doubt I'll ever get more than 8 people to draft.
I took a look the average 450 cube on cubetutor and that seems like a decent list but I'm still debating putting sol ring, jitte, and signets in there as from researching it sounds like that those cards can make the game "unfair" for those who get them against those who don't.
While I suppose the previous statement could steer this conversation in the wrong direction, I would love to hear comments on:
What people think on putting the previous mentioned cards in a unpowered cube?
Is the MTGO Legacy Cube a good reference or does it play too much fluff?
What do you think about Ben's Average Cubes on cube tutor?
Any suggestion on a cube to reference off of if the above aren't good?
What people think on putting the previous mentioned cards in a unpowered cube?
Jitte is borderline overpowered if the cube is combat centric (which a lot of unpowered cubes are). But with Skullclamp and all the Swords in too, it probably won't create too much of an imbalance.
Sol Ring has no business in an unpowered cube if balance is any part of your unpowering factor. Fast artifact mana should be avoided (basically, if it produces more mana than it costs to cast, it should be on the watch list at the very least).
Signets are fine. They're not overpowered at all.
Quote from iFayt »
Is the MTGO Legacy Cube a good reference or does it play too much fluff?
I think it has too much fluff. It has a lot of areas you could prune down in.
Quote from iFayt »
What do you think about Ben's Average Cubes on cube tutor?
It's not a bad baseline, but it pools from all cubes of that respective size, regardless of whether or not they're updated and still being managed. Which means the information is often out-of-date and the great new cards are too underrepresented to show up where they should.
Quote from iFayt »
Any suggestion on a cube to reference off of if the above aren't good?
You could look through the cube list subforum here on MTGS and browse some of the unpowered lists in your size range. Find three that you like the most, include the commonly included pieces across all three lists, and then flesh out the rest of the list with your preferred choices.
I'd suggest starting smaller, because it will be easier to acquire, and it'll give you a good baseline of what the "staple" unpowered cube inclusions look like ...which will be of great value when you're considering which cards are worthy of inclusion when you expand.
I took a look the average 450 cube on cubetutor and that seems like a decent list but I'm still debating putting sol ring, jitte, and signets in there as from researching it sounds like that those cards can make the game "unfair" for those who get them against those who don't.
Definitely don't run Sol Ring in an unpowered cube. A turn 1 Sol Ring is just too fast of a start to catch up against when other players have no chance of keeping up with fast mana of their own. I run all the rest of the cards you mentioned, and I'm really happy with them. I wouldn't blame anyone for cutting Jitte for being too oppressive, but make sure you run plenty of artifact destruction so that there are answers to any broken artifacts in your cube.
Is the MTGO Legacy Cube a good reference or does it play too much fluff?
I wouldn't recommend modeling a cube after the Legacy Cube. It doesn't support aggro in black or green, so a lot of decks end up midrangey, plus they support some kinda goofy archetypes like Vampire tribal. You'll find better cubes among the users here. Plus, anyone can always log into the MTGO cube and play it, so why bother replicating it?
What do you think about Ben's Average Cubes on cube tutor?
In addition to what wtwlf said about them being a bit outdated, it's important to keep in mind that they're not actually curated with a particular design in mind, they're just lists of the most popularly run cards. This makes the average cubes a bit of a mess, they're not color balanced, and sometimes they contain partial archetypes without proper support. For example, the CT 360 average cube has Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Pestermite but no Splinter Twin. The CT average cubes are a decent gauge of whether individual cards' power level is high enough for consideration, but not much more.
Any suggestion on a cube to reference off of if the above aren't good?
You could do worse than check out my 465 unpowered list (link in my sig), my cube is pretty balanced and fun to play if I do say so myself. It does have a few quirks that aren't for everyone, though. My cube is a bit heavier on hybrid mana cards than many, and I fully embraced Conspiracy mechanics.
Here are a few more unpowered lists I think are worth checking out:
Antnee42's "540ish", he actually hosts one of the better podcasts on cube design - The Third Power.
All of these cubes belong to regular posters on this forum. You'll notice a lot of common ground in these cubes, but each has it's own idiosyncrasies. All of these cubes are 450+, I can't think of anyone around here who runs a 360 unpowered, sorry about that.
Welcome to the forum, and happy cubing!
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465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I've looked at a lot of lists and currently I'm using cube tutor to show cards that are used in both the MTGO Legacy Cube and Ben's 450 average cube. They both share 336 cards so I'm currently prioritizing those cards first while I try and find a better list to go off of.
That's a fairly reasonable starting point, most of the cards that are in both are cards I'd run based on power level. If you're still in the stage of acquiring cards, you might want to check out the list of cube cards for less than $2 TCG mid I've been maintaining. If it's your first cube and you're not sure what you want, you might as well err on the side of cheap, and everything here is solid and versatile.
My cube is 555 cards. 540 + a 15 card conspiracy package that can be taken out for more serious drafting. The conspiracy package is marked as such and can be ignored if you wish.
I update regularly with each set release, sometimes more often. I know Antknee's list suffers from abandonment issues for instance.
I regularly try unique "packages" like artifacts matter, Kiki-Jiki combo, Pox package, blue devotion, colorless, spells matters. Currently I have a spells matter theme going in blue and red and a colorless matters theme. Keep this in mind when looking at some more unique card choices (i.e. Stormchaser Mage)
I tend to lean towards inclusion on new cards, you can always take out the failures next set, the only crime is never testing a hidden treasure. This means you'll see more cards from the new set than usual in my list.
My list is balanced at the discretion of my playgroup. This cube feels very balanced, at least to us. Mill-Jace and True-Name Nemesis were cut due to uninteractive game play for instance. Sword of Body and Mind was kept however, because you should be able to interact with it easily. Sol Ring and Mind Twist were removed for balance, but some other questionable cards were kept because they have yet to cause problems.
I took a look the average 450 cube on cubetutor and that seems like a decent list but I'm still debating putting sol ring, jitte, and signets in there as from researching it sounds like that those cards can make the game "unfair" for those who get them against those who don't.
While I suppose the previous statement could steer this conversation in the wrong direction, I would love to hear comments on:
What people think on putting the previous mentioned cards in a unpowered cube?
Is the MTGO Legacy Cube a good reference or does it play too much fluff?
What do you think about Ben's Average Cubes on cube tutor?
Any suggestion on a cube to reference off of if the above aren't good?
Thanks!
Modern
Ad Nauseam
Dredge
Living End
Legacy
Lands
Jitte is borderline overpowered if the cube is combat centric (which a lot of unpowered cubes are). But with Skullclamp and all the Swords in too, it probably won't create too much of an imbalance.
Sol Ring has no business in an unpowered cube if balance is any part of your unpowering factor. Fast artifact mana should be avoided (basically, if it produces more mana than it costs to cast, it should be on the watch list at the very least).
Signets are fine. They're not overpowered at all.
I think it has too much fluff. It has a lot of areas you could prune down in.
It's not a bad baseline, but it pools from all cubes of that respective size, regardless of whether or not they're updated and still being managed. Which means the information is often out-of-date and the great new cards are too underrepresented to show up where they should.
You could look through the cube list subforum here on MTGS and browse some of the unpowered lists in your size range. Find three that you like the most, include the commonly included pieces across all three lists, and then flesh out the rest of the list with your preferred choices.
I'd suggest starting smaller, because it will be easier to acquire, and it'll give you a good baseline of what the "staple" unpowered cube inclusions look like ...which will be of great value when you're considering which cards are worthy of inclusion when you expand.
..........
Good luck, and happy cubing!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Definitely don't run Sol Ring in an unpowered cube. A turn 1 Sol Ring is just too fast of a start to catch up against when other players have no chance of keeping up with fast mana of their own. I run all the rest of the cards you mentioned, and I'm really happy with them. I wouldn't blame anyone for cutting Jitte for being too oppressive, but make sure you run plenty of artifact destruction so that there are answers to any broken artifacts in your cube.
I wouldn't recommend modeling a cube after the Legacy Cube. It doesn't support aggro in black or green, so a lot of decks end up midrangey, plus they support some kinda goofy archetypes like Vampire tribal. You'll find better cubes among the users here. Plus, anyone can always log into the MTGO cube and play it, so why bother replicating it?
In addition to what wtwlf said about them being a bit outdated, it's important to keep in mind that they're not actually curated with a particular design in mind, they're just lists of the most popularly run cards. This makes the average cubes a bit of a mess, they're not color balanced, and sometimes they contain partial archetypes without proper support. For example, the CT 360 average cube has Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Pestermite but no Splinter Twin. The CT average cubes are a decent gauge of whether individual cards' power level is high enough for consideration, but not much more.
You could do worse than check out my 465 unpowered list (link in my sig), my cube is pretty balanced and fun to play if I do say so myself. It does have a few quirks that aren't for everyone, though. My cube is a bit heavier on hybrid mana cards than many, and I fully embraced Conspiracy mechanics.
Here are a few more unpowered lists I think are worth checking out:
Antnee42's "540ish", he actually hosts one of the better podcasts on cube design - The Third Power.
Steve Man's 540
dschumm's 450
noshadowkick's 460
All of these cubes belong to regular posters on this forum. You'll notice a lot of common ground in these cubes, but each has it's own idiosyncrasies. All of these cubes are 450+, I can't think of anyone around here who runs a 360 unpowered, sorry about that.
Welcome to the forum, and happy cubing!
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I've looked at a lot of lists and currently I'm using cube tutor to show cards that are used in both the MTGO Legacy Cube and Ben's 450 average cube. They both share 336 cards so I'm currently prioritizing those cards first while I try and find a better list to go off of.
Modern
Ad Nauseam
Dredge
Living End
Legacy
Lands
Also, if you haven't already seen it you might want to check out this thread with a list of resources and advice for new cube designers. If you have any more questions, don't be shy. Have fun!
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
DrRuler's 555 Card Cube
Some things of interest:
Old Cube Thread (Outdated)
945 Card Commander Cube
Rotisserie Drafted Commander Cube Commanders
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>