Over the past month I've been aggressively drafting my cube on CubeTutor. This has my cube in the top most drafted cubes, which means more people I don't know have been drafting it. I originally welcomed this because it gave me a lot more data about how people would draft my cube, but as I continue to look at the decks being created, it's abundantly clear that I'm thinking about aggro very, very differently from how the average CubeTutor drafter does.
I come to cube as someone with no particular aggro tendencies. I prefer control and combo to aggro in most formats. That said, as a cube designer I feel it's my responsibility to understand all archetypes, so I've been studying aggro for years, talking to people who understand and enjoy it more than I do, and I feel like I've gotten to a pretty good place. The glut of one drops WotC has given us recently has really helped lower the curve for aggro decks and help them get under the control decks. I've also been a little more stringent about what control tools get added, so every playable wrath effect is no longer in the cube. This means control decks are having to prioritize drafting removal if they want it, which I like. Every aggro matchup shouldn't be a race to kill before the wrath, there should be a little more interaction, and that's been happening.
Here are some of the aggro decks people (myself included) have drafted recently that I think are good. Not necessarily great, but I'm not spending hours curating lists looking for the bests, these are just concepts.
This guy got pretty great fixing so he can play one drops in all 3 colors. That's super rare, and the CC two drops may be a bit greedy, but Imposing Sovereign and Winter Orb should help keep your cheap guys relevant longer and then Aristocrat can come over the top at the end.
This one has a little bit to slow down control (Thalia) but also is very well set up to recover from board wipes. Shrine and the manlands stick around through wraths, they've got multiple token makers to flood the board quickly, and between the Wargear and two Anthems you can expect to have even soemthing as innocent as Elite Vanguard matter on it's own after the board is cleared.
Stick the early threats, use the blue stuff to push your black guys through. Would've preferred a little more fixing on this one but you should be able to punch a lot of damage through.
Long story short: Lots and lots of different drafters (not the same people over and over) continue to build decks with 17 lands in them that have a few aggressive one drops and also play 6 and 7 drop haymakers. In most cases it feels like a solid aggro decks is present in the pool and people just couldn't bring themselves to play Imposing Sovereign over Sun Titan. In some particularly confusing instances people are only playing about half of the aggressive one drops they drafted.
Obviously I feel like I have gotten to the point that I understand aggro and that all of these example decks I've posted are bad decks. Am I wrong? Am I missing something that means I should be playing 6 drops in my Savannah Lions decks? What do you think an ideal aggro deck looks like? What would it take to get you to play Sun Titan and Isamaru in the same deck?
Finally: I tried to remove all names and links from these example decks, but if you drafted one of the decks I've held up as "bad", I'm not trying to shame you, I'm just trying to understand where these drafts are coming from.
I can't tell whether you're actually looking for input about whether the wonky decks are good, or just making a post that is trying to backhandedly explain what's wrong with the way some people draft in cube.
Clearly the focused decks are better, and I think you know that, especially if you've "been studying aggro for years". Some people aren't that great at drafting, some people don't understand aggro in cube, and some people don't take drafting on cubetutor that seriously. Shrug. I wouldn't worry about it.
I can't tell whether you're actually looking for input about whether the wonky decks are good, or just making a post that is trying to backhandedly explain what's wrong with the way some people draft in cube.
Clearly the focused decks are better, and I think you know that, especially if you've "been studying aggro for years".
I worried this would be the response. I promise, this isn't supposed to be a "pat myself on the back" post explaining how much better I am than other drafters. I've been studying it for a long time, and for the vast majority of that time I feel like I've been failing to get it. See some of my arguments with wtwlf regarding how many one drops were appropriate to include in my cube or a deck. Recently, though, I feel like I've been actually turning the corner, both in my own aggro deck construction and in the design of my cube to support the construction of those decks.
I feel like it's at least possible that I've discovered one way to build a good aggro deck, but that what I've been doing lately isn't the only way to have success, and since CubeTutor decks are just decklists without records or context I wasn't sure if maybe I was missing something while looking at them. My automatic assumption the first time I got an Isamaru+SunTitan list that showed up in my cube was "oh man, this deck sucks". Then I started seeing the exact same thing multiple times a week and started to wonder if maybe I was the one who was wrong.
Sometimes when you see something that seems dumb over and over and over, it's just you that's wrong. I don't think that's the case here but I figured I'd consult other cube designers before just throwing out the data that I'm looking at.
Well sorry for my possibly abrasive response then.
You're right, those aggro decks are subpar just like you think they are. CubeTutor is obviously catering to people who are interested in cubing, but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who drafts on there is A) good at cube or B) trying their hardest.
Also, drafting on CubeTutor is a pretty low-risk way for people to try out different strategies. For example, a number of people might've thought, "Hey, I wonder what happens if I try to draft a RW midrange deck instead of typical Boros aggro," and then they end up with a confusing pile of cards and don't try very hard to sort it out, so they put Sun Titan and Isamaru in the same deck and call it a day.
I think the most important thing in aggro is redundancy at low CMC. Some of those "aggro" decks have 11 or 12 creatures, which is just not going to cut it at all. I think that's what you need to convince your drafters of. A great aggro deck will have 11-12 one- and two-drops, not 11-12 creatures in total. You want to make sure as many opening hands as possible are able to curve out, cause that's the only way you are winning in an aggro deck.
I'd explain to your drafters that almost no six-drops go in aggro decks (fireblast doesn't count), and very, very few fives do. My ideal aggro deck has at most 3 spells at 4 so that I can run 16 lands. Maybe tell them if they start drafting aggro, their goal should be to draft no cards over 4 and have at least 15 cards that cost 1 or 2. Obviously such a strict rule wouldn't work for a more experienced drafter, but if someone follows that rule and gets to see how consistent a good aggro deck can be, it might push them in the right direction.
If you're looking for confirmation that aggro decks featuring Sheoldred, Titans and Consecrated Sphinx are bad, you can have it. The bad decks are bad, and the good decks are good, just like you said.
Unfortunately most of these decks are coming from random people drafting my cube, not from people within my group, so I don't really have the opportunity to explain anything to them (or a good way to ask them why they made certain decisions without being rude, which is why I haven't said anything to them).
Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate the confirmation that I'm not going any crazier than I already am.
This just proves to me that Sun Titan is the best card in any cube, as it defies your archetypes. I appreciate this thread though, as it did make me draft my own cube and look at my own aggro drafting preferences to see if I was making strange decks like those listed.
To the first "misdrafted deck".(deck 4) I've definitely had what I felt were too many 2 power one drops in my aggro decks, though it was far far greater than 2 in number. I can see not running elite vanguard in an aggro deck.
To the first "misdrafted deck". I've definitely had what I felt were too many 2 power one drops in my aggro decks, though it was far far greater than 2 in number. I can see not running elite vanguard in an aggro deck.
I don't think I've had an aggro deck with too many 2 power one drops ever. They're arguably the most important part of an aggro decks, as applying pressure as early as turns 1-2 is crucial for the deck. It would be extremely rare for me to not run Elite Vanguard in a deck that wants a 2 power one drop.
To the first "misdrafted deck". I've definitely had what I felt were too many 2 power one drops in my aggro decks, though it was far far greater than 2 in number. I can see not running elite vanguard in an aggro deck.
I don't think I've had an aggro deck with too many 2 power one drops ever. They're arguably the most important part of an aggro decks, as applying pressure as early as turns 1-2 is crucial for the deck. It would be extremely rare for me to not run Elite Vanguard in a deck that wants a 2 power one drop.
So you are saying the first deck(deck 1) listed is incorrect in not running elite vanguard and tormented hero?
That deck is wrong because it features aggro cards in the mainboard, not because there are some in the sideboard. Those are some of the more out-of-place 2-power 1-drops I've seen in a cube deck before.
To the first "misdrafted deck". I've definitely had what I felt were too many 2 power one drops in my aggro decks, though it was far far greater than 2 in number. I can see not running elite vanguard in an aggro deck.
I don't think I've had an aggro deck with too many 2 power one drops ever. They're arguably the most important part of an aggro decks, as applying pressure as early as turns 1-2 is crucial for the deck. It would be extremely rare for me to not run Elite Vanguard in a deck that wants a 2 power one drop.
So you are saying the first deck listed is incorrect in not running elite vanguard and tormented hero?
Yeah, I think so. I'd probably take out goblin bombardment and burning tree emissary for the two one drops. The mana is great and all the one drops should hit the board on t1. The bombardment seems to be out of place since this isn't really a token build and only seems great in aggro's late game, and the RG from Burning Tree casts too little to justify it. Maybe get rid of mix diamond and the 17th land, but I'm not sure about that. The curve is so low that running 17 lands feels bad, but the 17th land helps justify mix diamond. But the mana may be good enough to run 16 lands and I really don't want to run Mox Diamond with 16 lands.
EDIT: I thought we were talking about deck #1, not deck #4. Deck #4 is a friggin mess in the MB.
EDIT: I thought we were talking about deck #1, not deck #4. Deck #4 is a friggin mess in the MB.
I got confused, because the first quoted post said 'To the first "misdrafted deck".' which made me think they were talking about the one with Sheoldred, since the OP didn't consider the first 3 decks to be "misdrafted".
I usually focus my aggro decks on the two drop slot, but figuring I made *****ty aggro decks from this post I tried being more agggressive in drafting 1 drops and it turned out... ok. I kinda just scooped to any creature with first strike, or any large creature. Jitte, Thalia and brimaz ruined my day, and I really only beat the control deck at the table because of turn 1 library into turn 2 dark confidant. My sideboard included rancor, sarkhan vol, and bbe which I think could have given it better reach through adding green.
For reference a Gruul aggro deck is one of the best archetypes in my cube, but besides boros aggro, no other aggro decks really show up.
Edit: yeah I was lazy with my lands, I did have decent fixing, my point was just that my one drops were obseleted on turn 2 completely. very rarely could they even attack without simply dying.
I've never known a traditional cube where skimping on 1-drops in your aggro deck was correct. I notice you have no fixing...is that typical in your cube? It's going to be hard to have a successful deck that wants to run Firedrinker Satyr next to Hymn to Tourach on 13 basics and 2 colorless lands.
Mostly just bad players/drafters at work...but that said it isn't a terrible idea to include a few high end finishers in an otherwise aggressive deck. Especially when the aggressive deck doesn't quite "get there" or is lacking in ways to finish a game (or powerful mana denial, I'm seeing Orb here but not Geddon/Ravages/Wire/Stacks). Sun Titan in particular gains a lot of value in these situations as it allows you to bring back a Sword, an O.Ring, or even just a good attacker to help finish the opponent off.
Just look at your first "good" aggro deck for instance. I can see that one really struggling to finish off a G/x goodstuff deck that just plays some creatures with toughness. A 3/3 blanks most of your team and with limited removal and only one Winter Orb your counters to a deck that just levels you are few and far between. Not a deck where I would really want Sun Titan due to lack of strong targets, but I would consider adding a couple of more 4-6 mana finishers (Thundermaw, Stormbreath, Inferno/Grave Titans, etc) for those inevitable games that go a little longer. It is one of those situations where the 1st/2nd finishers can be worth a lot compared to the 17th/18th 1-2 drops. Currently with 18 mana sources and 16 1-2 drops this deck just has terrible draws in the mid-late game.
I'd also add that the "bad" aggro decks look more like midrange decks that are just playing a couple of 1-drops that they probably shouldn't be playing. Really the mono-white deck is the only one that is aggro, and yeah it should be running the Orb, although I might cut the Ranger before the Titan given how strong the Titan looks here. The BW build is control is anything and clearly should be playing a few other things in place of its ones. The UW and WGR decks are more midrange.
Instead of including 6-drops in an aggro deck for when things "go wrong", I'd rather just include another aggro card to make sure things "go right". But I don't mind including a lone 5-drop or maybe an extra 4-drop or two so that not all your cards are 1-2cc threats.
Instead of including 6-drops in an aggro deck for when things "go wrong", I'd rather just include another aggro card to make sure things "go right". But I don't mind including a lone 5-drop or maybe an extra 4-drop or two so that not all your cards are 1-2cc threats.
lol, so you are basically contradicting yourself from one line to the next. Yeah, ideally you get a 5-mana finisher instead of a 6-mana option...but it's draft, sometimes you have to take what you can get. Heck ideally you draft 5 burn spells and a Vortex, or back your curve up with Ajani/Geddon, so that you have finishing power sans resorting to a fat dude. But in the example decks he is showing us I see some "good" aggro decks that are going to struggle to finish games. They don't have much burn, much efficient removal, or much good disruption. In decks like that I'll happily play my first good finisher over my 18th 1-2 drop, as there is a tipping point where you face the real risk of just getting your deck bricked by a few decent bodies (heaven help you if they actually draw a good defensive creature like Finks).
lol, so you are basically contradicting yourself from one line to the next.
No, perhaps you should re-read what I said. I'm not contradicting myself at all.
Quote from Golden »
Yeah, ideally you get a 5-mana finisher instead of a 6-mana option...
I think you're misunderstanding. I might use a 5cc option in some cases. I won't use a 6-mana option, because they're not at all what an "aggro" deck wants to be doing. 15-16 land decks can't play 6-drops, and in the unfortunate situation where my aggro deck might still be at 17 lands for some reason, a lone 5cc card might be acceptable. But I'd much rather have 1-3cc cards and a smattering of 4-drops, and play 15-16 lands. Once Titans are involved, and I'm playing 17+ lands still, I'm no longer really playing an aggro deck.
Quote from Golden »
In decks like that I'll happily play my first good finisher over my 18th 1-2 drop...
I don't want to play nothing but 1-2cc cards either. But that doesn't mean my aggro decks want 6-drops. I can close out games perfectly fine with a handful of curve-topping 4-drops, or maybe a 5-drop ...if I have no other choice.
Maybe in a powered cube, but in what we are seeing above I think it's laughable to suggest that an aggro deck shouldn't ever be playing 17 land. Not every aggro deck is or needs to be a 15-16 lander with almost all 1's-2's and just a few 3's-4's. That is extremely narrow thinking.
Again, just looking at the good aggro decks you listed I'm not seeing the disruption/finishing power to consistently end games before a good stuff deck gets rolling. Doesn't mean those are bad decks, but without burn/mana-disruption/something a lot of those games are going to go longer than you want and leave you wishing for 1 less bear and 1 more bomb.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I come to cube as someone with no particular aggro tendencies. I prefer control and combo to aggro in most formats. That said, as a cube designer I feel it's my responsibility to understand all archetypes, so I've been studying aggro for years, talking to people who understand and enjoy it more than I do, and I feel like I've gotten to a pretty good place. The glut of one drops WotC has given us recently has really helped lower the curve for aggro decks and help them get under the control decks. I've also been a little more stringent about what control tools get added, so every playable wrath effect is no longer in the cube. This means control decks are having to prioritize drafting removal if they want it, which I like. Every aggro matchup shouldn't be a race to kill before the wrath, there should be a little more interaction, and that's been happening.
Here are some of the aggro decks people (myself included) have drafted recently that I think are good. Not necessarily great, but I'm not spending hours curating lists looking for the bests, these are just concepts.
This guy got pretty great fixing so he can play one drops in all 3 colors. That's super rare, and the CC two drops may be a bit greedy, but Imposing Sovereign and Winter Orb should help keep your cheap guys relevant longer and then Aristocrat can come over the top at the end.
1x Figure of Destiny
1x Goblin Guide
1x Mardu Woe-Reaper
1x Rakdos Cackler
1x Sarcomancy
1x Soldier of the Pantheon
1x Steppe Lynx
1x Vampire Lacerator
1x Zurgo Bellstriker
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1x Burning-Tree Emissary
1x Gore-House Chainwalker
1x Hellspark Elemental
1x Imposing Sovereign
1x Lightning Mauler
1x Spike Jester
1x Falkenrath Aristocrat
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Mox Diamond
1x Winter Orb
Instant
1x Boros Charm
1x Searing Blaze
1x Kolaghan's Command
Enchantment
1x Goblin Bombardment
Land
1x Battlefield Forge
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Fetid Heath
1x Gemstone Mine
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Windswept Heath
2x Plains
3x Swamp
3x Mountain
1x Academy Ruins
1x Cogwork Librarian
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Deal Broker
1x Elite Vanguard
1x Geralf's Messenger
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Jeskai Ascendancy
1x Lore Seeker
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Tormented Hero
1x Young Pyromancer
This one has a little bit to slow down control (Thalia) but also is very well set up to recover from board wipes. Shrine and the manlands stick around through wraths, they've got multiple token makers to flood the board quickly, and between the Wargear and two Anthems you can expect to have even soemthing as innocent as Elite Vanguard matter on it's own after the board is cleared.
1x Elite Vanguard
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1x Mardu Woe-Reaper
1x Mother of Runes
1x Savannah Lions
1x Soldier of the Pantheon
1x Student of Warfare
1x Azorius Guildmage
1x Imposing Sovereign
1x Precinct Captain
1x Soltari Trooper
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Hidden Dragonslayer
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Soltari Champion
1x Porcelain Legionnaire
Artifact
1x Shrine of Loyal Legions
1x Grafted Wargear
Instant
1x Midnight Haunting
Sorcery
1x Spectral Procession
Enchantment
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Pacifism
1x Glorious Anthem
Enchantment Artifact
1x Spear of Heliod
Land
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Mutavault
14x Plains
1x Altac Bloodseeker
1x Balance
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Council's Judgment
1x Day of Judgment
1x Deal Broker
1x Duress
1x Flickerwisp
1x Geralf's Messenger
1x Hero of Bladehold
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Ophiomancer
1x Precursor Golem
1x Prophet of Kruphix
1x Prophetic Bolt
1x Reveillark
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1x Volrath's Stronghold
Stick the early threats, use the blue stuff to push your black guys through. Would've preferred a little more fixing on this one but you should be able to punch a lot of damage through.
1x Diregraf Ghoul
1x Sarcomancy
1x Tormented Hero
1x Vampire Lacerator
1x Dark Confidant
1x Looter il-Kor
1x Waterfront Bouncer
1x Flesh Carver
1x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Nightveil Specter
1x Pestermite
1x Pitiless Horde
1x Braids, Cabal Minion
1x Brutal Hordechief
1x Shriekmaw
1x Cursed Scroll
Instant
1x Mutagenic Growth
1x Far // Away
1x Hero's Downfall
Sorcery
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Hymn to Tourach
Enchantment
1x Phyrexian Arena
Enchantment Creature
1x Gnarled Scarhide
1x Herald of Torment
Land
1x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
6x Island
8x Swamp
1x Bayou
1x Breeding Pool
1x Burning-Tree Emissary
1x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Contagion Clasp
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Dragon Hunter
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Faithless Looting
1x Geralf's Messenger
1x Lore Seeker
1x Putrid Leech
1x Search for Tomorrow
1x Student of Warfare
1x Taiga
1x Torch Fiend
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Yavimaya Coast
However, I'm seeing a rash of decks like this
This I just don't understand at all. If you want Savannah Lions and Diregraf Ghoul, why don't you want Elite Vanguard and Carnophage?
1x Diregraf Ghoul
1x Savannah Lions
1x Blood Artist
1x Wall of Omens
1x Hero of Bladehold
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
Artifact
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
Instant
1x Dark Ritual
1x Path to Exile
1x Raise the Alarm
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Reanimate
1x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Damnation
1x Wrath of God
Enchantment
1x Necromancy
Enchantment Artifact
1x Spear of Heliod
Land
1x Godless Shrine
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Scrubland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
8x Plains
7x Swamp
1x Carnophage
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Duress
1x Elite Vanguard
1x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Glorious Anthem
1x Mana Tithe
1x Nekrataal
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Porcelain Legionnaire
1x Reveillark
1x Rishadan Port
1x Rolling Earthquake
1x Sinkhole
1x Steppe Lynx
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Waterfront Bouncer
17 land aggro deck that's got great aggressive tools in it, but plays Sun Titan on top instead of Imposing Sovereign or Banisher Priest
1x Dragon Hunter
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1x Soldier of the Pantheon
1x Steppe Lynx
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Sun Titan
Planeswalker
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Gideon Jura
Instant
1x Burst Lightning
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Lightning Bolt
1x Path to Exile
1x Boros Charm
1x Lightning Helix
1x Forked Bolt
1x Mizzium Mortars
Enchantment
1x Rancor
1x Banishing Light
Land
1x Battlefield Forge
1x Savannah
1x Stomping Ground
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Wooded Foothills
5x Plains
3x Mountain
3x Forest
1x Ankh of Mishra
1x Banisher Priest
1x Borderland Marauder
1x Char
1x Cogwork Librarian
1x Cultivate
1x Faithless Looting
1x Gore-House Chainwalker
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Imposing Sovereign
1x Sarcomancy
1x Shrine of Burning Rage
1x Spike Jester
1x Uktabi Orangutan
1x Vengevine
1x Wrath of God
Leaving Winter Orb in the board and playing Sun Titan?
1x Elite Vanguard
1x Figure of Destiny
1x Mardu Woe-Reaper
1x Student of Warfare
1x Accorder Paladin
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1x Precinct Captain
1x Soltari Trooper
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Monastery Mentor
1x Soltari Champion
1x Hero of Bladehold
1x Cloudgoat Ranger
1x Sun Titan
1x Porcelain Legionnaire
Artifact
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Loxodon Warhammer
Instant
1x Midnight Haunting
Enchantment
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Banishing Light
1x Glorious Anthem
1x Oblivion Ring
Land
1x Rishadan Port
15x Plains
1x Arid Mesa
1x Blood-Chin Rager
1x Bloodsoaked Champion
1x Boon Satyr
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Dauthi Horror
1x Dreadbore
1x Fire Imp
1x Fireblast
1x Gavony Township
1x Gore-House Chainwalker
1x Intangible Virtue
1x Jackal Pup
1x Land Tax
1x Mogg War Marshal
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Winter Orb
1x Wolfir Avenger
Isamaru, Hound of Konda and Karn Liberated in the same deck. I don't understand.
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1x Steppe Lynx
1x Azorius Guildmage
1x Looter il-Kor
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Precinct Captain
1x Blade Splicer
1x Hero of Bladehold
1x Cloudgoat Ranger
1x Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1x Reveillark
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Karn Liberated
Artifact Creature
1x Porcelain Legionnaire
Artifact
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
Instant
1x Force Spike
1x Memory Lapse
1x Remand
1x Secure the Wastes
Sorcery
1x Council's Judgment
Enchantment
1x Parallax Wave
1x Aether Adept
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Dark Ritual
1x Faithless Looting
1x Glorious Anthem
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Joraga Treespeaker
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1x Mirror Entity
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Prismatic Lens
1x Raging Ravine
1x Savannah
1x Spear of Heliod
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Treetop Village
1x Tundra
1x Voidmage Prodigy
1x Wrath of God
1x Yavimaya Coast
Long story short: Lots and lots of different drafters (not the same people over and over) continue to build decks with 17 lands in them that have a few aggressive one drops and also play 6 and 7 drop haymakers. In most cases it feels like a solid aggro decks is present in the pool and people just couldn't bring themselves to play Imposing Sovereign over Sun Titan. In some particularly confusing instances people are only playing about half of the aggressive one drops they drafted.
Obviously I feel like I have gotten to the point that I understand aggro and that all of these example decks I've posted are bad decks. Am I wrong? Am I missing something that means I should be playing 6 drops in my Savannah Lions decks? What do you think an ideal aggro deck looks like? What would it take to get you to play Sun Titan and Isamaru in the same deck?
Finally: I tried to remove all names and links from these example decks, but if you drafted one of the decks I've held up as "bad", I'm not trying to shame you, I'm just trying to understand where these drafts are coming from.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
Clearly the focused decks are better, and I think you know that, especially if you've "been studying aggro for years". Some people aren't that great at drafting, some people don't understand aggro in cube, and some people don't take drafting on cubetutor that seriously. Shrug. I wouldn't worry about it.
I worried this would be the response. I promise, this isn't supposed to be a "pat myself on the back" post explaining how much better I am than other drafters. I've been studying it for a long time, and for the vast majority of that time I feel like I've been failing to get it. See some of my arguments with wtwlf regarding how many one drops were appropriate to include in my cube or a deck. Recently, though, I feel like I've been actually turning the corner, both in my own aggro deck construction and in the design of my cube to support the construction of those decks.
I feel like it's at least possible that I've discovered one way to build a good aggro deck, but that what I've been doing lately isn't the only way to have success, and since CubeTutor decks are just decklists without records or context I wasn't sure if maybe I was missing something while looking at them. My automatic assumption the first time I got an Isamaru+SunTitan list that showed up in my cube was "oh man, this deck sucks". Then I started seeing the exact same thing multiple times a week and started to wonder if maybe I was the one who was wrong.
Sometimes when you see something that seems dumb over and over and over, it's just you that's wrong. I don't think that's the case here but I figured I'd consult other cube designers before just throwing out the data that I'm looking at.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
You're right, those aggro decks are subpar just like you think they are. CubeTutor is obviously catering to people who are interested in cubing, but it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who drafts on there is A) good at cube or B) trying their hardest.
Also, drafting on CubeTutor is a pretty low-risk way for people to try out different strategies. For example, a number of people might've thought, "Hey, I wonder what happens if I try to draft a RW midrange deck instead of typical Boros aggro," and then they end up with a confusing pile of cards and don't try very hard to sort it out, so they put Sun Titan and Isamaru in the same deck and call it a day.
I'd explain to your drafters that almost no six-drops go in aggro decks (fireblast doesn't count), and very, very few fives do. My ideal aggro deck has at most 3 spells at 4 so that I can run 16 lands. Maybe tell them if they start drafting aggro, their goal should be to draft no cards over 4 and have at least 15 cards that cost 1 or 2. Obviously such a strict rule wouldn't work for a more experienced drafter, but if someone follows that rule and gets to see how consistent a good aggro deck can be, it might push them in the right direction.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Unfortunately most of these decks are coming from random people drafting my cube, not from people within my group, so I don't really have the opportunity to explain anything to them (or a good way to ask them why they made certain decisions without being rude, which is why I haven't said anything to them).
Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate the confirmation that I'm not going any crazier than I already am.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
To the first "misdrafted deck".(deck 4) I've definitely had what I felt were too many 2 power one drops in my aggro decks, though it was far far greater than 2 in number. I can see not running elite vanguard in an aggro deck.
thats my cube
I don't think I've had an aggro deck with too many 2 power one drops ever. They're arguably the most important part of an aggro decks, as applying pressure as early as turns 1-2 is crucial for the deck. It would be extremely rare for me to not run Elite Vanguard in a deck that wants a 2 power one drop.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
So you are saying the first deck(deck 1) listed is incorrect in not running elite vanguard and tormented hero?
thats my cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Yeah, I think so. I'd probably take out goblin bombardment and burning tree emissary for the two one drops. The mana is great and all the one drops should hit the board on t1. The bombardment seems to be out of place since this isn't really a token build and only seems great in aggro's late game, and the RG from Burning Tree casts too little to justify it. Maybe get rid of mix diamond and the 17th land, but I'm not sure about that. The curve is so low that running 17 lands feels bad, but the 17th land helps justify mix diamond. But the mana may be good enough to run 16 lands and I really don't want to run Mox Diamond with 16 lands.
EDIT: I thought we were talking about deck #1, not deck #4. Deck #4 is a friggin mess in the MB.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I got confused, because the first quoted post said 'To the first "misdrafted deck".' which made me think they were talking about the one with Sheoldred, since the OP didn't consider the first 3 decks to be "misdrafted".
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The one with aggro cards in sideboard was the actual Deck #1, sorry for confusion. Edited my posts to try to be more clear.
thats my cube
1 gravecrawler
1 dark confidant
1 flesh carver
1 mardu strike leader
1 profane command
1 bitterblossom
1 rakdos cackler
1 kolaghan's command
1 reckless charge
1 chain lightning
1 stoke the flames
1 char
1 hellrider
1 hymn to tourach
1 grafted wargear
1 bonesplitter
1 goblin rabblemaster
1 young pyromancer
1 hellspark elemental
1 zurgo bellstriker
1 grim lavamancer
1 firedrinker satyr
1 chrome mox
1 library of alexandria
1 mutavault
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Wooded foothills
1 Blood crypt
1 badlands
9 basics
I usually focus my aggro decks on the two drop slot, but figuring I made *****ty aggro decks from this post I tried being more agggressive in drafting 1 drops and it turned out... ok. I kinda just scooped to any creature with first strike, or any large creature. Jitte, Thalia and brimaz ruined my day, and I really only beat the control deck at the table because of turn 1 library into turn 2 dark confidant. My sideboard included rancor, sarkhan vol, and bbe which I think could have given it better reach through adding green.
For reference a Gruul aggro deck is one of the best archetypes in my cube, but besides boros aggro, no other aggro decks really show up.
Edit: yeah I was lazy with my lands, I did have decent fixing, my point was just that my one drops were obseleted on turn 2 completely. very rarely could they even attack without simply dying.
thats my cube
Just look at your first "good" aggro deck for instance. I can see that one really struggling to finish off a G/x goodstuff deck that just plays some creatures with toughness. A 3/3 blanks most of your team and with limited removal and only one Winter Orb your counters to a deck that just levels you are few and far between. Not a deck where I would really want Sun Titan due to lack of strong targets, but I would consider adding a couple of more 4-6 mana finishers (Thundermaw, Stormbreath, Inferno/Grave Titans, etc) for those inevitable games that go a little longer. It is one of those situations where the 1st/2nd finishers can be worth a lot compared to the 17th/18th 1-2 drops. Currently with 18 mana sources and 16 1-2 drops this deck just has terrible draws in the mid-late game.
I'd also add that the "bad" aggro decks look more like midrange decks that are just playing a couple of 1-drops that they probably shouldn't be playing. Really the mono-white deck is the only one that is aggro, and yeah it should be running the Orb, although I might cut the Ranger before the Titan given how strong the Titan looks here. The BW build is control is anything and clearly should be playing a few other things in place of its ones. The UW and WGR decks are more midrange.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
lol, so you are basically contradicting yourself from one line to the next. Yeah, ideally you get a 5-mana finisher instead of a 6-mana option...but it's draft, sometimes you have to take what you can get. Heck ideally you draft 5 burn spells and a Vortex, or back your curve up with Ajani/Geddon, so that you have finishing power sans resorting to a fat dude. But in the example decks he is showing us I see some "good" aggro decks that are going to struggle to finish games. They don't have much burn, much efficient removal, or much good disruption. In decks like that I'll happily play my first good finisher over my 18th 1-2 drop, as there is a tipping point where you face the real risk of just getting your deck bricked by a few decent bodies (heaven help you if they actually draw a good defensive creature like Finks).
No, perhaps you should re-read what I said. I'm not contradicting myself at all.
I think you're misunderstanding. I might use a 5cc option in some cases. I won't use a 6-mana option, because they're not at all what an "aggro" deck wants to be doing. 15-16 land decks can't play 6-drops, and in the unfortunate situation where my aggro deck might still be at 17 lands for some reason, a lone 5cc card might be acceptable. But I'd much rather have 1-3cc cards and a smattering of 4-drops, and play 15-16 lands. Once Titans are involved, and I'm playing 17+ lands still, I'm no longer really playing an aggro deck.
I don't want to play nothing but 1-2cc cards either. But that doesn't mean my aggro decks want 6-drops. I can close out games perfectly fine with a handful of curve-topping 4-drops, or maybe a 5-drop ...if I have no other choice.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)