A while ago, I heard someone (the cube guy on Channel Fireball, maybe?) say that the best thing he ever did for his cube was to double up on fetch lands, running a full 20. It makes a lot of sense to me: a given fetch could potentially see play in a much higher percentage of possible decks than even an ABU dual*. And that's not to mention their added value with library manipulation, and the occasional benefits in a "lands matter" type decks with Knight of the Reliquary, Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds, etc.
I've always run a singleton cube, but I'm thinking I might make an exception here. Has anyone tried it? Is it as good as it sounds?
*Back of the envelope math: of the 25 different possible combinations of 1-3 colors (mono, guild, shard/wedge), a given fetch could potentially see play in 18 (2 + 7 + 9) decks, whereas any other dual will only work for 4 (0 + 1 + 3). That's a 4.5 fold difference! Of course, 4 and 5 color decks even the ratio out a bit.
The same argument could be said of lots of great cube cards that fit in every deck. Why not play two black lotuses? or three Jittes? or four Wastelands?
Many people enjoy the idea of singleton, which is why cube, EDH and other highlander formats (7-point, tiny leaders etc.) are so popular. It's the reason why we run the shocklands instead of just two sets of ABU duals.
So what I'm saying is: If you don't mind the idea of your cube not being singleton, then by all means, have at it. You're not doing anything objectively wrong by doing so. I'm sure it would even be fun to draft and play.
My friend has a 540 card Peasant Cube and he runs 2 copies of Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds each. He says it's to flush out the number of fetchlands in his cube since he only has those plus the Panoramas. Personally I want to stick by the singleton card rule. It's tempting especially since I can't afford 1 of each Zendikar fetchland right now, but I don't think it's a rule I want to break because my reasoning is a lack of funds rather than not enough fetchlands in Peasant cubes. At the end of the day, it's your cube and you just have to make the call on it.
It certainly improves performance. But we enjoy the singleton nature of the cube, so that's what me and my playgroup want to experience when we sit down.
It will certainly increase the power of your cube a lot, for the reasons given in the OP. But we also like the singleton nature of cubing, and restriction can breed creativity too. I think if we doubled up on anything it would be fetches since they really do something irreplaceable, unlike nearly any other example you could give, but it's not something we want to do. I'm OK with fetches being strong and high picks, without seeing nearly one per pack.
I would say go for it if you want to really maximise power or provide for the lands-matter archetype, and don't really mind breaking singleton. Also as pointed out there's the decision to make about whether just to break singleton for the lands or for other stuff too. Gravecrawler is a common example, as is Squadron Hawk. However, that never appealed to us as much as the fetches.
The point of the additional fetches isn't so much to add power to the cube as it is to support different things. The article on CFB presents the math that shows how the additional fetches support 2 color decks more than 3 and 4 color decks. This allows you to have more abundant fixing in your cube without ending up with a bunch of 4 and 5 color good-stuff decks. The option to run more stuff like top, library, brainstorm, steppe lynx, etc, is just gravy.
btw, there's already a thread about this, started by Trunkers(Jason Waddel on ChannelFireball and RiptideLab, who wrote the article).
I think a cube should either be singleton (the traditional way) or not singleton (like a full "double cube" or a "set/plane" cube that recreates a limited environment and runs multiple copies of commons and uncommons). Selectively "breaking singleton" for a few cards while still running one-ofs of the majority of cards is so aesthetically unpleasant that it makes me almost physically sick.
Yes, fetchlands are great and high picks, but running just the normal ten copies is fine. Especially in smaller cubes, where they show up more often. Of course, it also depends on the number of drafters, how many fetchlands show up each draft. Someone who runs all 10 fetchlands in a 450 cards cube will see less of them per draft when the cube is usually only drafted with 2-4 people than someone (like me) who runs the 10 lands in a 600 cards cube but drafts with 6 people almost every single draft. Yes, fetchlands are scarce in my cube, but they still show up reliably and can actually compete with some of the best nonland cards in cube for picks. That makes for some interesting draft dynamics.
Lastly, I don't think running more fetchlands instead of other nonbasics has a positive impact that is profound enough to justify such an ugly thing.
It's not something I've done myself (or feel the pressing need to do) but as always, do whatever you think is best for you and your playgroup OP. At the very least it can't hurt to try it
Absolutely makes the Cube better. Absolutely changes the format from singleton/Highlander to something else. Not for me, but to each their own.
-AA
P.S. Caveat: if you have a LARGE cube (like Kenny Mayer does), I could see doing this so there are actually enough playable fixing lands.
I mean, you have to go really, really big before you run out of playable fixing lands. Duals, shocks, fetches, filters, pains, checks, fastlands, trilands, scrys, and then there's an argument to be made for the lifegain lands or the vivid lands all being playable in bigger cubes, not to mention the incomplete cycles like manlands and future sight lands.
I don't know how many of those I would consider 'good', and I'm talking 900+ card Cubes. I have no 'moral' issue with adding 2nd cycles of lands when you get to that point in order to have good mana fixing. ETB tapped lands really are a drag most of the time.
I don't know how many of those I would consider 'good', and I'm talking 900+ card Cubes. I have no 'moral' issue with adding 2nd cycles of lands when you get to that point in order to have good mana fixing. ETB tapped lands really are a drag most of the time.
-AA
Well, I would imagine with a 900+ card cube the power level is so diluted that the "stumble" from having to use ETB tapped lands is probably a lot less damaging than it is in smaller cubes.
I mean, I agree with the majority of the posters in the thread, if you want to try double fetches, try it, that's the beauty of cube. But if you a firm believer in the singleton nature of cube (I am - I would never suggest doubling up on cards in cube), I just don't think slightly improving consistency and tempo in a cube that already has a pretty diluted power level is a good enough reason to do so. To each his own, though.
A while ago, I heard someone (the cube guy on Channel Fireball, maybe?) say that the best thing he ever did for his cube was to double up on fetch lands, running a full 20. It makes a lot of sense to me: a given fetch could potentially see play in a much higher percentage of possible decks than even an ABU dual*. And that's not to mention their added value with library manipulation, and the occasional benefits in a "lands matter" type decks with Knight of the Reliquary, Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds, etc.
I've always run a singleton cube, but I'm thinking I might make an exception here. Has anyone tried it? Is it as good as it sounds?
*Back of the envelope math: of the 25 different possible combinations of 1-3 colors (mono, guild, shard/wedge), a given fetch could potentially see play in 18 (2 + 7 + 9) decks, whereas any other dual will only work for 4 (0 + 1 + 3). That's a 4.5 fold difference! Of course, 4 and 5 color decks even the ratio out a bit.
You probably won't find much support here, MTGS is a mostly singleton crowd.
doubling up on fetches is amazing, it makes mana flow well to each drafter, increases the number of relevant lands for each drafter (Arid Mesa is fine for the GW player so long as they have something to find with it, battlefield forge isn't as you mention)
You can also dip into some cool stuff that gets better with these cards running around like steppe lynx, plated geopede, Brainstorm (More Shuffle Effects!), Courser of Kruphix, etc but you hardly need to. Run what makes your cube play nicely.
In the end, think about what will make your cube more fun to play (Why else do you have it right?)
4 wastelands? Probably more fun than Tectonic Edge/Rishasdan Port/Wasteland/Strip Mine since strip is a bit too good and the rest are a bit too bad.
2 black lotus? I don't power my list, but assuming you wanted more "Power Cube Moments" I could see it
3 Jittes? Not really a card that makes things more fun in my opinion. Maybe you'll decide different
Singleton for me was always intrinsic in the definition of Cube, as well as one of the more interesting design/drafting aspects, so that's why I adhere to it. But let's not spend too much time there...
Doubling on fetches will certainly make your mana work better in your decks (although I think the value of having a fetch that can only get a basic in your deck to be not really worth the 1 life loss, unless you have landfall/graveyard shenanigans...the thinning really doesn't matter enough), but I also think that it does de-emphasize the draft portion regarding mana decisions.
If you just want to make the mana work better for your decks in order for people to cast their spells in a more timely fashion (and make landfall/delve/shuffling more effective), then adding a 2nd set of fetches is perfect. If you wanted to just fix the mana for the multicolor decks without adding those other side effects, then adding more duals would be the more direct method (although doing so would make nonbasic land hate slightly better).
Singleton for me was always intrinsic in the definition of Cube, as well as one of the more interesting design/drafting aspects, so that's why I adhere to it. But let's not spend too much time there...
Doubling on fetches will certainly make your mana work better in your decks (although I think the value of having a fetch that can only get a basic in your deck to be not really worth the 1 life loss, unless you have landfall/graveyard shenanigans...the thinning really doesn't matter enough), but I also think that it does de-emphasize the draft portion regarding mana decisions.
If you just want to make the mana work better for your decks in order for people to cast their spells in a more timely fashion (and make landfall/delve/shuffling more effective), then adding a 2nd set of fetches is perfect. If you wanted to just fix the mana for the multicolor decks without adding those other side effects, then adding more duals would be the more direct method (although doing so would make nonbasic land hate slightly better).
-AA
Fetching basics is a pretty bad feeling barring the circumstances you describe. In general, if you're doubling up on fetches, it's usually a good idea to have more fetch-able lands (Shocks, Duals...Madblind Mountain? o.O) then fetchlands in the list. At 450, I've got Fetch/Fetch/Shock/Shock/Dual, and it works nicely: Feels a lot like modern/legacy mana: 3 color decks take a lot of work and have huge wasteland weaknessess, 2 color decks are more just very consistent, and can afford more colorless lands.
I tried Triple Fetch/Shock/Dual before, but it ended up with a lot of people searching for basics, which kinda defeats the purpose of the lands.
Maybe I am confused, but what is wrong with using flooded strand in your UW deck to fetch either an island or a plains, depending on what you need at the time? Or are you talking about people running stuff like Tarn in their mono-red deck?
If I were to break singleton the fetches would be what I would do it for... and it doesn't mean I have to double up on my Power and Jitte. Just because I can it doesn't mean that I should.
I'm talking about a fetch only being able to get 1 type of basic in your deck (Tarn in a monored, Flooded Strand in WG no splash, etc.). I could have been more specific in my language.
I'm talking about a fetch only being able to get 1 type of basic in your deck (Tarn in a monored, Flooded Strand in WG no splash, etc.). I could have been more specific in my language.
-AA
I pick off-color fetches that hit a dual in my deck pretty highly, and don't feel bad about it. If you draw them after you already have your dual you probably don't need another dual anyways.
Maybe I am confused, but what is wrong with using flooded strand in your UW deck to fetch either an island or a plains, depending on what you need at the time? Or are you talking about people running stuff like Tarn in their mono-red deck?
Tarn in actual mono red isn't actually so bad since you don't need the fixing, but tarn in a red white deck is usually worse than mountain unless you've got landfall guys or brainstorms or something else.
I'm talking about a fetch only being able to get 1 type of basic in your deck (Tarn in a monored, Flooded Strand in WG no splash, etc.). I could have been more specific in my language.
-AA
I pick off-color fetches that hit a dual in my deck pretty highly, and don't feel bad about it. If you draw them after you already have your dual you probably don't need another dual anyways.
Usually, but then again sometimes the dual you need gets wastelanded, or milled, or you need to go up to double blue from your Mountain, Mountain, Steam Vents draw, etc etc etc
my friend has some common/uncommon only cubes that run 4 of each card. And the cube isn't really huge, so it isn't uncommon to get multiples of the good stuff.
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I've always run a singleton cube, but I'm thinking I might make an exception here. Has anyone tried it? Is it as good as it sounds?
*Back of the envelope math: of the 25 different possible combinations of 1-3 colors (mono, guild, shard/wedge), a given fetch could potentially see play in 18 (2 + 7 + 9) decks, whereas any other dual will only work for 4 (0 + 1 + 3). That's a 4.5 fold difference! Of course, 4 and 5 color decks even the ratio out a bit.
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Many people enjoy the idea of singleton, which is why cube, EDH and other highlander formats (7-point, tiny leaders etc.) are so popular. It's the reason why we run the shocklands instead of just two sets of ABU duals.
So what I'm saying is: If you don't mind the idea of your cube not being singleton, then by all means, have at it. You're not doing anything objectively wrong by doing so. I'm sure it would even be fun to draft and play.
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I would say go for it if you want to really maximise power or provide for the lands-matter archetype, and don't really mind breaking singleton. Also as pointed out there's the decision to make about whether just to break singleton for the lands or for other stuff too. Gravecrawler is a common example, as is Squadron Hawk. However, that never appealed to us as much as the fetches.
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btw, there's already a thread about this, started by Trunkers(Jason Waddel on ChannelFireball and RiptideLab, who wrote the article).
Yes, fetchlands are great and high picks, but running just the normal ten copies is fine. Especially in smaller cubes, where they show up more often. Of course, it also depends on the number of drafters, how many fetchlands show up each draft. Someone who runs all 10 fetchlands in a 450 cards cube will see less of them per draft when the cube is usually only drafted with 2-4 people than someone (like me) who runs the 10 lands in a 600 cards cube but drafts with 6 people almost every single draft. Yes, fetchlands are scarce in my cube, but they still show up reliably and can actually compete with some of the best nonland cards in cube for picks. That makes for some interesting draft dynamics.
Lastly, I don't think running more fetchlands instead of other nonbasics has a positive impact that is profound enough to justify such an ugly thing.
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-AA
P.S. Caveat: if you have a LARGE cube (like Kenny Mayer does), I could see doing this so there are actually enough playable fixing lands.
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I mean, you have to go really, really big before you run out of playable fixing lands. Duals, shocks, fetches, filters, pains, checks, fastlands, trilands, scrys, and then there's an argument to be made for the lifegain lands or the vivid lands all being playable in bigger cubes, not to mention the incomplete cycles like manlands and future sight lands.
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-AA
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Well, I would imagine with a 900+ card cube the power level is so diluted that the "stumble" from having to use ETB tapped lands is probably a lot less damaging than it is in smaller cubes.
I mean, I agree with the majority of the posters in the thread, if you want to try double fetches, try it, that's the beauty of cube. But if you a firm believer in the singleton nature of cube (I am - I would never suggest doubling up on cards in cube), I just don't think slightly improving consistency and tempo in a cube that already has a pretty diluted power level is a good enough reason to do so. To each his own, though.
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You probably won't find much support here, MTGS is a mostly singleton crowd.
doubling up on fetches is amazing, it makes mana flow well to each drafter, increases the number of relevant lands for each drafter (Arid Mesa is fine for the GW player so long as they have something to find with it, battlefield forge isn't as you mention)
You can also dip into some cool stuff that gets better with these cards running around like steppe lynx, plated geopede, Brainstorm (More Shuffle Effects!), Courser of Kruphix, etc but you hardly need to. Run what makes your cube play nicely.
If you want some ideas, there's a whole thread talking about what to double up on over here: http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/breaking-singleton.497/
In the end, think about what will make your cube more fun to play (Why else do you have it right?)
4 wastelands? Probably more fun than Tectonic Edge/Rishasdan Port/Wasteland/Strip Mine since strip is a bit too good and the rest are a bit too bad.
2 black lotus? I don't power my list, but assuming you wanted more "Power Cube Moments" I could see it
3 Jittes? Not really a card that makes things more fun in my opinion. Maybe you'll decide different
Doubling on fetches will certainly make your mana work better in your decks (although I think the value of having a fetch that can only get a basic in your deck to be not really worth the 1 life loss, unless you have landfall/graveyard shenanigans...the thinning really doesn't matter enough), but I also think that it does de-emphasize the draft portion regarding mana decisions.
If you just want to make the mana work better for your decks in order for people to cast their spells in a more timely fashion (and make landfall/delve/shuffling more effective), then adding a 2nd set of fetches is perfect. If you wanted to just fix the mana for the multicolor decks without adding those other side effects, then adding more duals would be the more direct method (although doing so would make nonbasic land hate slightly better).
-AA
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Fetching basics is a pretty bad feeling barring the circumstances you describe. In general, if you're doubling up on fetches, it's usually a good idea to have more fetch-able lands (Shocks, Duals...Madblind Mountain? o.O) then fetchlands in the list. At 450, I've got Fetch/Fetch/Shock/Shock/Dual, and it works nicely: Feels a lot like modern/legacy mana: 3 color decks take a lot of work and have huge wasteland weaknessess, 2 color decks are more just very consistent, and can afford more colorless lands.
I tried Triple Fetch/Shock/Dual before, but it ended up with a lot of people searching for basics, which kinda defeats the purpose of the lands.
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-AA
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I pick off-color fetches that hit a dual in my deck pretty highly, and don't feel bad about it. If you draw them after you already have your dual you probably don't need another dual anyways.
Tarn in actual mono red isn't actually so bad since you don't need the fixing, but tarn in a red white deck is usually worse than mountain unless you've got landfall guys or brainstorms or something else.
Usually, but then again sometimes the dual you need gets wastelanded, or milled, or you need to go up to double blue from your Mountain, Mountain, Steam Vents draw, etc etc etc
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