On average, what number/percentage of your cube is made up of planeswalkers?
Back-story: some of my regulars have complained that my cube (450, unpowered) is getting over-saturated with planeswalkers. Right now, I'm sitting at 20 planeswalkers in my list. I also have 13 spells that can destroy planeswalkers outright (not including stuff like bounce, discard, or burn). These 13 include anything from Hero's Downfall, Unexpectedly Absent, and Vraska the Unseen.
So again, I'd like to know what number/percentage of your cube is comprised of planeswalkers. Also, how many cards do you have like Downfall or Dreadbore that can outright kill a planeswalker 1-for-1?
In the 450 list I've been experimenting with, I'm running 24 planeswalkers. Not sure how many 1-1 destruction there is, but if I have time I'll count it later.
Are you including things like Oblivion Ring?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
In my 450 list, I currently have 27 Planeswalkers. It's a little high, but I'm fine with it. I would also like to clarify what you are including in your 1-for-1 (your full list of 13 spells will help give a sense of this).
My 500 card cube currently has 22 planeswalkers, which means 4.4%
In a random 15 card pack, I have a 0.66 probability of opening a planeswalker, or in other words, roughly two planeswalkers for every 3 packs.
I'm happy to run as many niche planeswalkers as I want, in order to support various strategies, which means cards like Tezzeret 1&2 get a free pass. Otherwise, I'm fairly stringent on what "goodstuff" planeswalkers I include. Jace, Architect of Thought, the new Ajanis, the new B/W Sorin (and more) don't get a free pass, as I want to keep planeswalker density fairly low. I generally want 2-3 good planeswalkers in each mono-colour.
Also, I must congratulate you on your most classy profile picture.
I run 43 in my 720 cube for 6% roughly.
I wouldn't worry too much about having "enough" planewalker removal per se since they are more often dealt with via damage from creatures. Just play the usual suspects for "destroy target permanent" (O-ring stuff) and then what few specific removal there is (Dreadbore etc).
I don't know why you would need a certain number of planeswalker removal spells. I assume you have creatures in your cube, and they do a pretty good job of killing planeswalkers.
I run 29 planeswalker in a 480 cube, 6% of the cards.
For direct planeswalker/permanent removal count, I'd say I have 15 direct answers (Un. Absent, Council's Judg., O.Ring/B.Light/D.Sphere, F.Fetters/D. Song, V. Hexmage, H. Downfall/Dreadbore, Wood. Primus, Vindicate/M. Pulse, Pith. Needle/Phy. Revoker)
If you do count blue bouncing, black discard and red burn, you end up with more answers than walkers. And, as agent56k said above, there's also any creature able to attack ever (including token makers, manlands, ...)
I don't know why you would need a certain number of planeswalker removal spells. I assume you have creatures in your cube, and they do a pretty good job of killing planeswalkers.
This. About half of most cube's cards work as planeswalker removal.
Enchantment/Artifact removal is a greater concern for cube design, IMO. They can dominate the game just as easily as any other card type, and are harder to deal with. You probably run more game-breaking artifacts+enchantments+lands than planeswalkers overall.
Paraphrasing what someone else said around here once, you can't just attack a Smokestack or Recurring Nighmare until it dies.
Usually, a good aggro count in each color will keep walkers honest. Cards like Hero's Downfall are bonus. More often than not, walkers often fall in the hands of creature beatdown rather than said spells.
Good aggro plus good direct answers should be able to keep planeswalkers from getting out of control. At 550 I'm running what may be a higher than average number of planeswalkers at 33 - or 6% - and I don't really notice that planeswalkers are running the draft. They seem to just lend a helping hand their respective decks and make the games more interesting.
I have several spells that deal with 'walkers outright, but yeah, they usually die in combat. The ones that can protect themselves are the ones you want the destruction/exile spells against.
There shouldn't be an arbitrary cap on the number of walkers you run. If they are good enough, run them. Quality should be the controlling factor, not quantity.
I've got 21 walkers in 500. But there are only 2 of each mono color, the rest are multi-colored. I find that the multi-colored walkers often need more support and fit into specific deck archetypes and sometimes don't get picked highly or played.
There's never been a question of over-abundance of walkers in my group. They're easy enough to deal with via smashing creatures into them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The GameCube, a 500 cube with a medium power level and a focus on fun and fringe playables rather than immediately shutting your opponent down with the best cards ever printed.
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
Sorry to bring this thread back up, but I've been thinking about my planeswalker count in my cube lately (especially now with Ugin), and I can't help but feel that we've been spoiled for choice here.
With the density of PWs in cube nowadays (25/360 powered, not including Ugin), every player is basically guaranteed to hit a planeswalker - when I draft with just 2, each of us is likely to get anywhere from 3-4 PWs. My feeling is that even cube has shifted towards "midrange magic" where the majority of decks throw PWs in for the value regardless of colours/build. I've recently created a house rule that says a max of 3 PWs can be in a given mainboard to try and control the situation - am I alone in feeling that PWs are too overpowered, and too abundant in cube?
I think when the Super Friends deck comes together it can be incredibly powerful, but that deck needs an insane manabase and some really solid utility spells as well. Even just a three color version can be really good, but again, it needs a solid manabase and other spells to back it up. The vast majority of our decks tend to be 1-2 colors, though, so I've not seen this as a "problem" just yet. Even in colors where the planeswalker density is high, most of those 'walkers are the same and can't be in play at the same time. If I'm running three Jace's I'm not going to be too oppressive with my planeswalker force. Not to say it's unheard of for a deck to have more than three planeswalkers, especially if that drafter was forcing the issue. In the average deck, though, I'd say three is about the normal number. You should also take into account that not all planeswalkers fit into the same deck. I'll probably not play Ajani, Caller of the Pride or Ajani Goldmane in my UW control deck.
I've seen some heavy planeswalker decks do very well in our drafts, but I don't contribute their success only to the planeswalkers in the deck. A good pilot built a good deck. Not every game or draft is won or lost on the back of planeswalkers. When that day comes, I'll evaluate my planeswalker numbers. Putting a limit on it puts too many constraints on my cube, IMO.
I'm on the low side - 20 PWs in a 455, or just 4.4%. Two reasons for that: first, despite a recent size jump of +50 cards, I actually trimmed my guilds from 4 playables to 3 each, which nudged out Vraska and Xenagos. Second, and probably more importantly, I follow a purely flavorful rule of only allowing one PW per name (I guess "type," technically?) which means, for instance, that Boros Ajani means no monowhite Ajanis; just one Jace, Chandra, Garruk, etc. I know there are plenty of arguments against this policy - I originally adopted it as much for cost reasons as anything - but I'm still happy with it, even in my new extravagant proxy mode.
This is something I realised a few drafts ago. I was sitting in the middle and glanced across at the various board states and noticed everyone was locked into a Planeswalker vs Planeswalker midrange battle. I look at my hand, I was playing a Sultai control deck featuring about 7 Planeswalkers. I checked Cubetutor and noticed I had about 25+ Planeswalker in the Cube, considering I was running a 360 list I thought this was a little too high and it made me change 7 of them out down to 18. I feel, for me, this is a much better number. Yes, there are plenty of ways of dealing with them but an oversaturation of Walkers isnt something I wanted for my Cube. I remember when I first got back into Magic and I opened up a Foil Sorin, Lord of ISD from a Booster and had no idea what is was but was in awe. I want them to feel rare in my Cube, not being passed around all over the shop.
I really like that flavour rule of allowing one only PW per name. I only have two crossovers at the moment, you have inspired to either swap them out with a different Walker, OR, take them out completely!
Yes, there are plenty of ways of dealing with them but an oversaturation of Walkers isnt something I wanted for my Cube. I remember when I first got back into Magic and I opened up a Foil Sorin, Lord of ISD from a Booster and had no idea what is was but was in awe. I want them to feel rare in my Cube, not being passed around all over the shop.
This has been my thought, as well. I don't want the planeswalkers to lose their Mythic feel, so I'm only running one from each color plus Karn in my 360.
I run 31 in my 725. Thats about 4.2%. I do think there can be too many. I would rather them be a little more special. There are plenty of powerful cards I can play in their place. Having a few less opens up some space to support additional archetypes.
You could make the same argument for any card type. I started playing in Beta, and I felt at the time that artifacts were this super special card type. The fact of the matter is, planeswalkers are a card type like any other. I think you're just stuck in the past in thinking that they are some sort of rare card form.
You could make the same argument for any card type. I started playing in Beta, and I felt at the time that artifacts were this super special card type. The fact of the matter is, planeswalkers are a card type like any other. I think you're just stuck in the past in thinking that they are some sort of rare card form.
Fair call. Planeswalkers have a pretty unique effect when they hit the battlefield, maybe moreso than an artifact, you cant attack a Sol Ring which creates a cool tension when a Planeswalker hits. I dont think it's wrong for some people to amplify this by reducing their numbers and almost making a Planeswalker like an end boss. Saying you cant have too many is fine, but I think it comes down to how you want your games to play out and what archetypes you want to support. I had too many before and it was warping the games, I dont think that this was positive. I have reduced them slightly down and it was better for me and my playgroup.
You could make the same argument for any card type. I started playing in Beta, and I felt at the time that artifacts were this super special card type. The fact of the matter is, planeswalkers are a card type like any other. I think you're just stuck in the past in thinking that they are some sort of rare card form.
We all do this in our cubes. We have certain thresholds for creatures, how many of each drop, etc. it's not old school thinking, it's cube design.
Enchantments are harder to deal with in the cube than Planeswalkers are. I see no reason to cap the numbers on one and disregard the numbers on the other.
On average, what number/percentage of your cube is made up of planeswalkers?
Back-story: some of my regulars have complained that my cube (450, unpowered) is getting over-saturated with planeswalkers. Right now, I'm sitting at 20 planeswalkers in my list. I also have 13 spells that can destroy planeswalkers outright (not including stuff like bounce, discard, or burn). These 13 include anything from Hero's Downfall, Unexpectedly Absent, and Vraska the Unseen.
That being said, I'm also looking to add in some new planeswalkers that until recently have not been available, such as Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Garruk, Apex Predator, and Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker. Hence, the balancing act of planeswalkers vs. cards that destroy them begins.
So again, I'd like to know what number/percentage of your cube is comprised of planeswalkers. Also, how many cards do you have like Downfall or Dreadbore that can outright kill a planeswalker 1-for-1?
Thanks in advance for all of your insight.
Yeva (88/92 foils)
Raff
Scarab
Rakdos
Wort ($50 budget, 94/97 foils)
Trostani
Are you including things like Oblivion Ring?
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
In a random 15 card pack, I have a 0.66 probability of opening a planeswalker, or in other words, roughly two planeswalkers for every 3 packs.
I'm happy to run as many niche planeswalkers as I want, in order to support various strategies, which means cards like Tezzeret 1&2 get a free pass. Otherwise, I'm fairly stringent on what "goodstuff" planeswalkers I include. Jace, Architect of Thought, the new Ajanis, the new B/W Sorin (and more) don't get a free pass, as I want to keep planeswalker density fairly low. I generally want 2-3 good planeswalkers in each mono-colour.
Also, I must congratulate you on your most classy profile picture.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
Funny enough I just threw Dreadbore back in yesterday!
I wouldn't worry too much about having "enough" planewalker removal per se since they are more often dealt with via damage from creatures. Just play the usual suspects for "destroy target permanent" (O-ring stuff) and then what few specific removal there is (Dreadbore etc).
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
For direct planeswalker/permanent removal count, I'd say I have 15 direct answers (Un. Absent, Council's Judg., O.Ring/B.Light/D.Sphere, F.Fetters/D. Song, V. Hexmage, H. Downfall/Dreadbore, Wood. Primus, Vindicate/M. Pulse, Pith. Needle/Phy. Revoker)
If you do count blue bouncing, black discard and red burn, you end up with more answers than walkers. And, as agent56k said above, there's also any creature able to attack ever (including token makers, manlands, ...)
This. About half of most cube's cards work as planeswalker removal.
Enchantment/Artifact removal is a greater concern for cube design, IMO. They can dominate the game just as easily as any other card type, and are harder to deal with. You probably run more game-breaking artifacts+enchantments+lands than planeswalkers overall.
Paraphrasing what someone else said around here once, you can't just attack a Smokestack or Recurring Nighmare until it dies.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
I have several spells that deal with 'walkers outright, but yeah, they usually die in combat. The ones that can protect themselves are the ones you want the destruction/exile spells against.
My Eternal Cube on CubeTutor| |My Reject Rare Cube on CubeTutor| |My Peasant Cube on CubeTutor
I used to write for MTGS, including Cranial Insertion and cube articles. Good on you if you can find those after the upgrade.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
I would highly doubt if any cube runs subpar aggression anyways. So not much to worry.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
There's never been a question of over-abundance of walkers in my group. They're easy enough to deal with via smashing creatures into them.
Modem Masters, a 500 cube that tries to capture the essence of a Modern Masters set draft. 3 of each common, 2 of each uncommon, 1 of each rare, few mythics. Includes minor changes for balance reasons to give certain archetypes the tools they need to succeed.
With the density of PWs in cube nowadays (25/360 powered, not including Ugin), every player is basically guaranteed to hit a planeswalker - when I draft with just 2, each of us is likely to get anywhere from 3-4 PWs. My feeling is that even cube has shifted towards "midrange magic" where the majority of decks throw PWs in for the value regardless of colours/build. I've recently created a house rule that says a max of 3 PWs can be in a given mainboard to try and control the situation - am I alone in feeling that PWs are too overpowered, and too abundant in cube?
I've seen some heavy planeswalker decks do very well in our drafts, but I don't contribute their success only to the planeswalkers in the deck. A good pilot built a good deck. Not every game or draft is won or lost on the back of planeswalkers. When that day comes, I'll evaluate my planeswalker numbers. Putting a limit on it puts too many constraints on my cube, IMO.
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
Follow me. I tweet.
Akrasia, a Custom 360 Cube
New To Cube?
Cubing with Two: A Guide to Two-Player Draft Formats
Modern: Jund
Modern: Jund
This has been my thought, as well. I don't want the planeswalkers to lose their Mythic feel, so I'm only running one from each color plus Karn in my 360.
[180 classic cube]
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
Fair call. Planeswalkers have a pretty unique effect when they hit the battlefield, maybe moreso than an artifact, you cant attack a Sol Ring which creates a cool tension when a Planeswalker hits. I dont think it's wrong for some people to amplify this by reducing their numbers and almost making a Planeswalker like an end boss. Saying you cant have too many is fine, but I think it comes down to how you want your games to play out and what archetypes you want to support. I had too many before and it was warping the games, I dont think that this was positive. I have reduced them slightly down and it was better for me and my playgroup.
Modern: Jund
We all do this in our cubes. We have certain thresholds for creatures, how many of each drop, etc. it's not old school thinking, it's cube design.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!