Some interesting staples have been left out, SFM, a bunch of mono-red stuff, DRS (Randy classes hybrids with gold cards so Golgari might have been tight)
It's one of the better looking MTGO lists I've seen so far, but I think there's still a lot that could easily go and good stuff that should go in. If the worst of the cards were trimmed and it was a 540 card cube instead it would look a little better to me. I like the idea though, and Randy knows what's up for the most part.
There are quite a few cards in there that I'd probably not be running in a 600 card list, but all in all it still looks much more solid than previous iterations. I hope this means they'll be doing the same thing with the Holiday Cube.
I've now had the time to go over the list in a bit more detail.
Some random observations:
- Legacy legal: No more Necropotence and Survival of the Fittest (makes me sad), no more Channel and Balance (makes me happy), no more Tinker, Strip Mine, Wheel of Fortune, Demonic Tutor and a few other cards (shrug).
- Mana: At first sight all the artifact mana survived the cut from 720 to 600, so a slight increase in density, but noting earth-shattering. As for lands, WOTC chose the "perfect symmetry" approach by including 6 10-card cycles (dual/shock/fetch/pain/check/scry), plus City of Brass and Mana Confluence. I like this approach because it's fair to all color combinations. Creeping Tar Pit and friends will be missed, but the Cube may be better for it.
- Non-supported archetypes: Wildfire (very hard to make work in large Cubes, so no big loss), Lands (probably a consequence of the banning of Strip Mine), Stax (a pity IMO, especially since there seems to be some kind of B/R Sacrifice theme), Storm (already killed in the previous update, and good riddance)
- Supported archetypes: Tokens (White, Red and to a lesser extent Black), B/G/u Graveyard (Stinkweed Imp, Grisly Salvage and more - I really doubt the payoff is there though), Twin Combo (!), U/R Spells Matter (Goblin Electromancer, Kiln Fiend), Mono Black, Mono Blue Devotion, Eldrazi Ramp (Summoning Trap), U/W Blink (Brago, King Eternal)
- For those looking at the Cubetutor list, the C14 inclusions are Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Dualcaster Mage, Song of the Dryads and Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
- Mass removal has been seriously toned down: only ***, DoJ, Terminus and Martial Coup in White, Damnation and Toxic Deluge in Black, Bonfire and Slagstorm in Red and Supreme Verdict in U/W. So no extra White wraths, no Wildfire or Earthquake effects, no Nevinyrral's Disk and no Pernicious Deed. I'm guessing WOTC went a bit too far on this point, but that's obviously something playtesting will be needed for.
- In connection with the previous point, 37 Planeswalkers out of 600 seems a ton. I expect a lot of midrange mirrors.
All in all, I'm happy with the changes and I'm curious as to how they will play out.
I'm pretty pleased with the cube. Not nearly enough 1-drops, but the "legacy" cube environment is one I strive for as well and I think is the optimal way to enjoy cubing. Sad to see the loss of Necro and Survival though. I took out balance for the same reason I'm really happy to not see it here.
I'll play with it some before passing judgement. I liked the old non-powered mtgo cube, and this looks roughly similar in quality. They cut some dud cards (coolish), some dud archetypes (very cool), and some sweet cards (lame). I like that mono-R no longer seems to be the best archetype by a mile, but I don't like that they neutered the wraths. I approve of adding twin as an archetype (4 cards go infinite with Kiki that I saw), but from a glance I feel like the BG mill archetype has way too many enablers (Tracker's Instincts, Mulch, Commune with the Gods, Grisly Salvage, Satyr Wayfinder, and possibly some more I'm forgetting) without real payoff. Dread Return is sweet, but they don't even have Iona.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
I think it's funny that black aggro is underdrafted by the populace, so adding in ...vampire specific black aggro is a solution? I hope it is drafted and successful so all those people that win with Vampires might realize that they would be better off just using good black aggro creatures instead, and win with the same shell. But I don't think it will win, so...
I'd add Swords rather than cut Jitte. But I understand what Randy's trying to do with this version of the cube. It's more for the crowd that complains about powerful cards rather than wondering why the other amazing cards aren't in. It's for the crowd that doesn't like playing Carnophage into Hymn to Tourach. So this version is more "fair" than the other one was, so it'll likely be an improvement for those that really enjoyed the last iteration, as it gust gets further away from what I may want from my cube experience.
In my conversation with Randy regarding the new list, I thought it was VERY telling that when I asked him why Firedrinker Satyr got cut but Jackal Pup stayed, he said it was a function of nostalgia and not wanting to run too many 2 power 1 drops. I, and I think most cube designers here, on the other hand are always looking for ways to add 2 power one drops. Aggro in general took a huge hit with these changes and I don't expect it to be pretty to see
They removed so many important aggro 1-drops? WTF?
As with several previous updates to the MODO cube, I like one third of the changes, don't care about another third of the changes and am absolutely flabbergasted by the last third of the changes.
Yeah, including Jackal Pup over Firedrinker and Carnophage over Bloodsoaked Champion is nice for nostalgia, but not so much for playability. I like that they changed black since I was also underwhelmed by the black choices, but I'm not too confident in the vampires either. The curve for that deck just looks too high, all of the ones that have high impact cost 4-6 mana, and they aren't as impressive as the other colors 4-6 mana spells. I would have liked to see Nantuko Shade and Lifebane Zombie stay in, the others I won't miss so much. Very glad to see Buried alive over Mulch and Grisly Salvage. I understand weakening red, it was very strong, but why remove inferno titan and keep all the other titans? Inferno titan is great, but its not one of the cards that was setting red deck wins over the top (compared to Sulfuric Vortex and the Searing effects). I expect to see a lot of people going UW.
Ya, but I don't think they needed to nerf aggro across the board to accomplish this. In fact, they didn't need to nerf it at all. If they replaced a lot of the durdly do-nothing spells the other decks are running for higher quality business spells/threats, red aggro wouldn't be a problem (competitive but not problematic), and it might incentivize players to play aggro in more than just mono red. Black's disruption and removal become more important for aggro strategies the more powerful the business cards in your opponent's decks get. Same for the resiliency of white's aggro creatures and the flexibility of its removal.
I'm blown away by the level of nerfing that happened to red. Vortex, Fireblast, Shrine, plus a bunch of awesome 1/2 drops.
The Vampire theme seems pretty sketchy, but I guess I'll play with it before passing judgement.
Sad to see Jitte go, but I understand the reasoning.
Glad the Mulch cards are gone.
The gold section seems to have gotten worse across the board.
Very sad S&T+Eureka got axed.
Overall I like the November changes, but this round seems quite dissapointing. I hope they go back after these fail .
Edit: My gut sense is that red aggro is dead, but I guess if people can still win with it after this bloodbath it will show that it was legitimately too good before.
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I primarily play limited, so most of my spoiler season comments view cards through that lens.
I agree that there's some really bad decisions made here. He has more data than anyone about cube drafting and he decides to cut RDW, Show & Tell and Eureka, add in Vampires and Scapeshift/Valakut.
I think this is one of the best iterations of the MODO cube. Taking out Jitte and Monolith were the best decision by a long shot since those cards were so oppressively powerful.
I asked him why he included Scapeshift/Valakut, as I've had really bad results with those two, and he said "Mostly these changes are about trying things and making sure the Cube never gets stale or feels solved." It seems odd they wouldn't try these cards with testing, and Cube is never really a solved format since they're still printing cards that are cubeable.
Also, you can just change the format of the Cube on MODO to keep it 'unsolved'. Powered and unpowered (especially if you consider 'powered' to include the great equipment and Satyr Firedrinker) will provide different experiences for sure, and you could even add a third classification somewhere in the middle (which is were most unpowered Cubes lie in the community).
As many times as I draft my Cube, I never feel like it is 'solved', but I also don't have hundreds of people playing it non-stop for weeks at a time. The fact that they have such in-depth data for winning and losing decks and cards would certainly be interesting (and I have no doubt that smart people will know something to do with it over there) but on the surface I can't help but be disappointed with most of the changes they make to their version of Cube.
What it boils down to, is that I'm simply looking for something radically different than the average MODO cube drafter. They seem to dislike powerful cards and strategies, and they complain to WotC about card powerlevel. They don't like to play aggro, and I do. So the draft numbers are down on their aggro cards. Randy has a boat load of data to support the changes he made. It's not what I would do (and it's definitely not what my playgroup would want), but it's very likely the right call to cater to what the masses were asking for and what their data supports.
I'm not a fan of these changes, but I still support Randy Buehler having control of the MODO list. Both the Legacy list and the Holiday list play and look better than previous MODO cubes. Obviously most of the folks on these boards will see something like Vortex or Jitte getting the axe and scream "NNOOOO!!", but like others have said, I'm sure they have data to back up these decisions. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of these changes, but what I am a huge fan of is being able to come home from work on a random Tuesday, crack open a beer, and cube. I don't have to worry about trying to schedule with all my buddies. I don't have to wait until the one Saturday that my wife works an evening shift and hope that there's not some big tournament within driving distance that all my friends are going to. I can just cube whenever I want. So as much as I don't like some of the choices that are made regarding the MODO cube (it's definitely not my ideal list), I'm thankful that it's available.
What it boils down to, is that I'm simply looking for something radically different than the average MODO cube drafter. They seem to dislike powerful cards and strategies, and they complain to WotC about card powerlevel. They don't like to play aggro, and I do. So the draft numbers are down on their aggro cards. Randy has a boat load of data to support the changes he made. It's not what I would do (and it's definitely not what my playgroup would want), but it's very likely the right call to cater to what the masses were asking for and what their data supports.
Giving the people running MTGO credit for anything, or knowing what consumers want, is incredibly shaky ground to begin with. The people running MTGO are incompetent. Randy Buehler, while he seems like a really great guy who loves Magic, was fired from running MTGO for incompetence.
And people not liking mono red =/= people not liking aggro. Mono red in the cube plays more like a legacy burn deck, where you're just trying to punch a few damage points through with your one drops and then throw burn at the face.
And the problem is, they continue cranking out super efficient aggro creatures, but not super efficient removal and ways to stabilize. While you can load up on the few answers they print in constructed, you don't have that option in cube. You can play 4 swords, 4 snapcasters, 4 bolts in legacy if you're worried about one drop dorks. NO such luck in cube.
And people not liking mono red =/= people not liking aggro. Mono red in the cube plays more like a legacy burn deck, where you're just trying to punch a few damage points through with your one drops and then throw burn at the face.
And the problem is, they continue cranking out super efficient aggro creatures, but not super efficient removal and ways to stabilize. While you can load up on the few answers they print in constructed, you don't have that option in cube. You can play 4 swords, 4 snapcasters, 4 bolts in legacy if you're worried about one drop dorks. NO such luck in cube.
It seems that you found one of the main reasons why mono red is problematic and oppressive in some cubes (like the MTGO cube)... and then jumped to a wrong conclusion.
As you said, what makes mono red non-interactive and unfair is that it can opperate like a Legacy burn deck that runs only few creatures and mostly throws burn at the opponent's face. Creatures - even early, aggressive ones - can be interacted with. Against burn however, you can only try to win faster, have lots of counterspells or have a sizeable amount of lifegain. In other words: The super efficient aggro creatures aren't really the problem. They are important for making aggro work in cube. If you cut down on the good 1- and 2-drops (like the recent MTGO cube update did), all types of aggro suffer. And that means that generic durdle decks and strong lategame decks benefit. Cutting down on super effictient aggro creatures shifts the metagame and reduces the viable draft/deckbuilding options. Which is bad.
The true solution to make mono red less oppressive and to make fast aggro decks more interactive would have been to cut down on the "faceburn" cards. (They actually did that, too, but they still cut the important aggro creatures, which was a mistake.) Price of Progress, Searing Blood, Searing Blaze, Smash to Smithereens, Skullcrack, Fireblast and Sulfuric Vortex are the cards that are reasonable to cut if you think that red aggro is too non-interactive in your cube.
Other knobs to turn would be adding a few more cheap defensive creatures. There are enough questionable cards in the MTGO cube that there would have been room for some of these. Even cards like Omenspeaker of Sea Gate Oracle are enough to give blue decks a fighting chance. People only need to pick a few of these for their lategame decks instead of trying to go all in. If they get greedy and rather have more cool expensive cards and then lose to fast aggro decks, then that doesn't mean that fast aggro is oppressive - it simply means that they get punished for a drafting and/or deckbuilding mistake.
While you can load up on the few answers they print in constructed, you don't have that option in cube. You can play 4 Swords, 4 snapcasters, 4 bolts in legacy if you're worried about one drop dorks. NO such luck in cube.
There are a bottomless number of answers you could add to the cube if mono-red is problematic for your playgroup, and then some. Like, as many cards as you would ever need and more. To suggest that you can modify a constructed deck to deal with aggro but that you can't change the cube composition to deal with aggro is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time on these boards.
There's a reason that mono-red is considered oppressive by the masses that draft the MTGO cube and not by all the cube managers that actually have balanced lists. And it's not because of a lack of available cards that are good against red, I assure you.
While you can load up on the few answers they print in constructed, you don't have that option in cube. You can play 4 Swords, 4 snapcasters, 4 bolts in legacy if you're worried about one drop dorks. NO such luck in cube.
There are a bottomless number of answers you could add to the cube if mono-red is problematic for your playgroup, and then some. Like, as many cards as you would ever need and more. To suggest that you can modify a constructed deck to deal with aggro but that you can't change the cube composition to deal with aggro is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time on these boards.
There's a reason that mono-red is considered oppressive by the masses that draft the MTGO cube and not by all the cube managers that actually have balanced lists. And it's not because of a lack of available cards that are good against red, I assure you.
Those that run "balanced" lists? Do you mean balancing by taking out red's ridiculous spells (like Shrine and Vortex), or balancing by running a bunch of subpar cards that help against mono red?
1. Shrine has been cut from most lists for not being good enough. Vortex is still amazing though.
2. Does your cube not run enough removal for aggro decks or things that gain life?
Edit - If you want to see what a balanced list looks like, click on the links in my signature or any of the other posters on this board telling you mono red isn't a problem to see their lists. Mono Red is a good deck here but it isn't oppressive due to the selection of cards available and the fact that none of the people I cube with have decks that fold to quick red decks with lots of burn.
I mean neither. I mean running good cards that allow you to build successful decks that can beat mono red. Not bad cards. Not anti-red cards. But assemble a configuration that allows for the construction of decks that beat mono-red. Give midrange the tools to accelerate into threats that can throttle aggro with appropriate tempo. The cube has little to no mana rocks. By design. And then they complain that aggro beats midrange. Well, give the midrange decks the tools they need to be successful and aggro decks aren't problematic for them. They assume that Signets and friends will make aggro too weak to compete. And then they cut aggro cards because it's too good. Don't cut good aggro cards; provide the other decks with the tools they need to be successful.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/new-magic-online-legacy-cube-2014-11-3
He made a 600 card legacy-legal 'Goodstuff' cube with no 'power level' cuts but some 'unfun' cuts (TNN, Swords)
I've put it on to cubetutor here: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/12345
4 cards from C14 are pending.
I like comparing cubes to the average cubes, and though 600 is an oddball size, it's still useful to compare.
Here's a comparison to the average 720 (which is powered): http://cubetutor.com/comparecubes/495/12345
If you observe the MTGO cube (on the right) you can see the cards that WOTC chose that aren't usually used in a cube that is 120 cards larger in size.
Next I compared to the 450 cube (on the right this time), to see what kind of staples that were left out: http://cubetutor.com/comparecubes/12345/893
Some interesting staples have been left out, SFM, a bunch of mono-red stuff, DRS (Randy classes hybrids with gold cards so Golgari might have been tight)
Should be interesting to draft nonetheless.
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Haven't looked at it in too much detail, but it should be a massive improvement over the old lists.
Thumbs up for WOTC for actually taking action on the Cube and listening to feedback.
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Some random observations:
- Legacy legal: No more Necropotence and Survival of the Fittest (makes me sad), no more Channel and Balance (makes me happy), no more Tinker, Strip Mine, Wheel of Fortune, Demonic Tutor and a few other cards (shrug).
- Mana: At first sight all the artifact mana survived the cut from 720 to 600, so a slight increase in density, but noting earth-shattering. As for lands, WOTC chose the "perfect symmetry" approach by including 6 10-card cycles (dual/shock/fetch/pain/check/scry), plus City of Brass and Mana Confluence. I like this approach because it's fair to all color combinations. Creeping Tar Pit and friends will be missed, but the Cube may be better for it.
- Non-supported archetypes: Wildfire (very hard to make work in large Cubes, so no big loss), Lands (probably a consequence of the banning of Strip Mine), Stax (a pity IMO, especially since there seems to be some kind of B/R Sacrifice theme), Storm (already killed in the previous update, and good riddance)
- Supported archetypes: Tokens (White, Red and to a lesser extent Black), B/G/u Graveyard (Stinkweed Imp, Grisly Salvage and more - I really doubt the payoff is there though), Twin Combo (!), U/R Spells Matter (Goblin Electromancer, Kiln Fiend), Mono Black, Mono Blue Devotion, Eldrazi Ramp (Summoning Trap), U/W Blink (Brago, King Eternal)
- For those looking at the Cubetutor list, the C14 inclusions are Hallowed Spiritkeeper, Dualcaster Mage, Song of the Dryads and Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
- Mass removal has been seriously toned down: only ***, DoJ, Terminus and Martial Coup in White, Damnation and Toxic Deluge in Black, Bonfire and Slagstorm in Red and Supreme Verdict in U/W. So no extra White wraths, no Wildfire or Earthquake effects, no Nevinyrral's Disk and no Pernicious Deed. I'm guessing WOTC went a bit too far on this point, but that's obviously something playtesting will be needed for.
- In connection with the previous point, 37 Planeswalkers out of 600 seems a ton. I expect a lot of midrange mirrors.
All in all, I'm happy with the changes and I'm curious as to how they will play out.
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I agree a lot of mid-range is gonna be happening in this cube. Twin combo is my pick right now for best deck, but it might be the ramp deck again.
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I'll play with it some before passing judgement. I liked the old non-powered mtgo cube, and this looks roughly similar in quality. They cut some dud cards (coolish), some dud archetypes (very cool), and some sweet cards (lame). I like that mono-R no longer seems to be the best archetype by a mile, but I don't like that they neutered the wraths. I approve of adding twin as an archetype (4 cards go infinite with Kiki that I saw), but from a glance I feel like the BG mill archetype has way too many enablers (Tracker's Instincts, Mulch, Commune with the Gods, Grisly Salvage, Satyr Wayfinder, and possibly some more I'm forgetting) without real payoff. Dread Return is sweet, but they don't even have Iona.
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I'd add Swords rather than cut Jitte. But I understand what Randy's trying to do with this version of the cube. It's more for the crowd that complains about powerful cards rather than wondering why the other amazing cards aren't in. It's for the crowd that doesn't like playing Carnophage into Hymn to Tourach. So this version is more "fair" than the other one was, so it'll likely be an improvement for those that really enjoyed the last iteration, as it gust gets further away from what I may want from my cube experience.
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They removed so many important aggro 1-drops? WTF?
As with several previous updates to the MODO cube, I like one third of the changes, don't care about another third of the changes and am absolutely flabbergasted by the last third of the changes.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
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The Vampire theme seems pretty sketchy, but I guess I'll play with it before passing judgement.
Sad to see Jitte go, but I understand the reasoning.
Glad the Mulch cards are gone.
The gold section seems to have gotten worse across the board.
Very sad S&T+Eureka got axed.
Overall I like the November changes, but this round seems quite dissapointing. I hope they go back after these fail .
Edit: My gut sense is that red aggro is dead, but I guess if people can still win with it after this bloodbath it will show that it was legitimately too good before.
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I agree that there's some really bad decisions made here. He has more data than anyone about cube drafting and he decides to cut RDW, Show & Tell and Eureka, add in Vampires and Scapeshift/Valakut.
I asked him why he included Scapeshift/Valakut, as I've had really bad results with those two, and he said "Mostly these changes are about trying things and making sure the Cube never gets stale or feels solved." It seems odd they wouldn't try these cards with testing, and Cube is never really a solved format since they're still printing cards that are cubeable.
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As many times as I draft my Cube, I never feel like it is 'solved', but I also don't have hundreds of people playing it non-stop for weeks at a time. The fact that they have such in-depth data for winning and losing decks and cards would certainly be interesting (and I have no doubt that smart people will know something to do with it over there) but on the surface I can't help but be disappointed with most of the changes they make to their version of Cube.
-AA
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Giving the people running MTGO credit for anything, or knowing what consumers want, is incredibly shaky ground to begin with. The people running MTGO are incompetent. Randy Buehler, while he seems like a really great guy who loves Magic, was fired from running MTGO for incompetence.
And people not liking mono red =/= people not liking aggro. Mono red in the cube plays more like a legacy burn deck, where you're just trying to punch a few damage points through with your one drops and then throw burn at the face.
And the problem is, they continue cranking out super efficient aggro creatures, but not super efficient removal and ways to stabilize. While you can load up on the few answers they print in constructed, you don't have that option in cube. You can play 4 swords, 4 snapcasters, 4 bolts in legacy if you're worried about one drop dorks. NO such luck in cube.
As you said, what makes mono red non-interactive and unfair is that it can opperate like a Legacy burn deck that runs only few creatures and mostly throws burn at the opponent's face. Creatures - even early, aggressive ones - can be interacted with. Against burn however, you can only try to win faster, have lots of counterspells or have a sizeable amount of lifegain. In other words: The super efficient aggro creatures aren't really the problem. They are important for making aggro work in cube. If you cut down on the good 1- and 2-drops (like the recent MTGO cube update did), all types of aggro suffer. And that means that generic durdle decks and strong lategame decks benefit. Cutting down on super effictient aggro creatures shifts the metagame and reduces the viable draft/deckbuilding options. Which is bad.
The true solution to make mono red less oppressive and to make fast aggro decks more interactive would have been to cut down on the "faceburn" cards. (They actually did that, too, but they still cut the important aggro creatures, which was a mistake.) Price of Progress, Searing Blood, Searing Blaze, Smash to Smithereens, Skullcrack, Fireblast and Sulfuric Vortex are the cards that are reasonable to cut if you think that red aggro is too non-interactive in your cube.
Other knobs to turn would be adding a few more cheap defensive creatures. There are enough questionable cards in the MTGO cube that there would have been room for some of these. Even cards like Omenspeaker of Sea Gate Oracle are enough to give blue decks a fighting chance. People only need to pick a few of these for their lategame decks instead of trying to go all in. If they get greedy and rather have more cool expensive cards and then lose to fast aggro decks, then that doesn't mean that fast aggro is oppressive - it simply means that they get punished for a drafting and/or deckbuilding mistake.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
There are a bottomless number of answers you could add to the cube if mono-red is problematic for your playgroup, and then some. Like, as many cards as you would ever need and more. To suggest that you can modify a constructed deck to deal with aggro but that you can't change the cube composition to deal with aggro is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time on these boards.
There's a reason that mono-red is considered oppressive by the masses that draft the MTGO cube and not by all the cube managers that actually have balanced lists. And it's not because of a lack of available cards that are good against red, I assure you.
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Those that run "balanced" lists? Do you mean balancing by taking out red's ridiculous spells (like Shrine and Vortex), or balancing by running a bunch of subpar cards that help against mono red?
1. Shrine has been cut from most lists for not being good enough. Vortex is still amazing though.
2. Does your cube not run enough removal for aggro decks or things that gain life?
Edit - If you want to see what a balanced list looks like, click on the links in my signature or any of the other posters on this board telling you mono red isn't a problem to see their lists. Mono Red is a good deck here but it isn't oppressive due to the selection of cards available and the fact that none of the people I cube with have decks that fold to quick red decks with lots of burn.
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