I was really excited when I read this for my 2-man travel cube to have a new format. But having to draft 360 cards kills it for me. Is there any adaptation that lets you draft with 180 cards? (Which, I believe, is the size of most 2-man cubes.)
It's a lot harder with 180 cards, but if you really want to try it, you can do BurnONE.
Each player starts with 9 packs of 10.
Take one, burn one.
If I did my math right, (kinda sleepy right now) you'll have 45 cards left in your card pool at the end of the draft.
I'm not sure if this will be satisfying enough for you. We really didn't like BurnONE when we did it, but it may be very enjoyable for you!
Each player makes 9 packs of 15. You draft a card and burn 2 cards rather than 4 before you pass the pack to your opponent (the OP advises against this, but we found it much more satisfying). Each player will get 5 cards per pack, and you wind up with 45 cards at the end of the draft. It fixed the three main problems we had with Burnfour when we experimented with the format, and was actually quite a lot of fun.
Very happy to hear you guys found a variant that works for you.
Yeah, we didn't like BurnTWO very much when we tried it, but we also didn't try 9 packs of 15 which may be a substantially shorter draft process than 12 packs. That was our main beef with the format. We liked BurnTHREE, BurnFOUR, and BurnFIVE much better.
I'll experiment with this variant and get back to you on if we like it more or less. It might be nice to have some cards left over that you don't draft if it's only 25% of the cube.
Yeah, we didn't like BurnTWO very much when we tried it, but we also didn't try 9 packs of 15 which may be a substantially shorter draft process than 12 packs. That was our main beef with the format. We liked BurnTHREE, BurnFOUR, and BurnFIVE much better.
I agree that the process would be daunting with an additional 3 packs per player. Since you wind up with 45 cards in Glimpse Drafting, it's not necessary to use more than that per player.
I'll experiment with this variant and get back to you on if we like it more or less. It might be nice to have some cards left over that you don't draft if it's only 25% of the cube.
Ya, it kinda leaves a happy medium between the two. Not every card shows up; it's the equivalent of doing a 6-player draft.
We'll give this variant a try at some point, somewhere between burn two and four. I feel that Burn three and 16 card packs could be a nice balance. Thanks for the ideas!
We'll give this variant a try at some point, somewhere between burn two and four. I feel that Burn three and 16 card packs could be a nice balance. Thanks for the ideas!
I'm just not sure what else can be done in a 180 cube and I want to try it. We can only Burn 1 because of the number of cards, and a 15 card pack with Burn 1 would be too many picks from the same pack. Could even go down to like 5 card packs possibly for the Burn 1 format.
Yes. And it prunes all the way down to 45 cards per player when you're done.
We tried Glimpse drafting and it was an absolute blast!
I think we may even like it more than Burnfour.
Great draft variant, wtwlf123!
Thanks for sharing Burnfour! We just combined the elements of that and the 9x9 draft we were doing before and came up with Glimpse Drafting. We've been having a good time with it too. The deck quality is pretty outrageous.
It does, and the cutting decisions are real skill-testers. AND, it keeps cards like Paliano, Searcher, Librarian and the like all live during 2-man events. Very sweet.
Give it a shot the next time you would otherwise run a Winston. It takes more time (quite a bit more) ...but the drafting/deckbuilding process is the best part anyways, right?
My friend and I have been completely hooked on glimpse drafting. It blows all draft formats out of the water. Thanks!
Four-man drafts, a problem that has plagued cubes since the dawn of time, is do-able (for 360 especially) with 6 packs of 15 per player then doing BurnOne, burning the odd last pick as well. Everyone will end up with 42 cards.
I don't think it's possible to do burn drafting for 6 players in a 360 cube. The most elegant solution would be to draft 5 packs of 12 per player and do burn two, burn one, then burn zero for the remaining picks. Or just burn the last three cards in each pack or burn three for the first drafter. This will result in 45 cards per person as well.
Just bumping this thread to report on the drafts that my group has been doing with 4 and 6 players which have been working well.
You will need a 540-card cube if you are going to draft 4 and 6 mans regularly. Ironically, I had to increase the size of the cube (from 360) so as to cater to less players drafting, so that players can burn more per draft while still having a size-able card pool. 540-cards also made drafting 8-mans more interesting and allow for up to 12 drafters.
4-mans:
9 packs of 15 per player, draft one burn two per pick.
This is exactly like glimpse drafting, except with double the number of players. Each player ends up with a card pool of 45 cards, and the entire 540 cube is drafted.
6-mans:
6 packs of 15 per player, draft one burn one. When it comes down to the last three cards in a pack, the player picks one and burns the last two.
Burning one is less exciting than burning two, but it works beautifully with 6 players. Each player ends up with a card pool of 42 cards, and the entire 540 cube is drafted.
4-mans:
9 packs of 15 per player, draft one burn two per pick.
This is exactly like glimpse drafting, except with double the number of players. Each player ends up with a card pool of 45 cards, and the entire 540 cube is drafted.
How have your 4 mans been, Sasky? Have the decks been absolutely bonkers?
4-mans:
9 packs of 15 per player, draft one burn two per pick.
This is exactly like glimpse drafting, except with double the number of players. Each player ends up with a card pool of 45 cards, and the entire 540 cube is drafted.
How have your 4 mans been, Sasky? Have the decks been absolutely bonkers?
Indeed. All the players get to play whatever archetype they want, though the really powerful pieces can get taken out early. The power level is a little lower than 2-man glimpse drafting as more people are burning cards, but a larger variety of cards getting seen means that more archetypes are easily drafted.
Really happy to hear you guys are having fun with it.
Since we started Glimpsing, my main 2-man partner has not wanted to even vary it up with anything else. I can't see going back to Winston or Grid anytime soon, haha.
Really happy to hear you guys are having fun with it.
Since we started Glimpsing, my main 2-man partner has not wanted to even vary it up with anything else. I can't see going back to Winston or Grid anytime soon, haha.
Indeed. I am facing the exact same situation. We're never doing any other 2-man format unless we are really tight on time, in which case we just play some modern or legacy.
After reading this thread today, it inspired me to bust out my cube for the first time in a long while (EDH has consumed my magic time - 17 proxied decks and counting...)
Glimpse drafting is an absolute blast. I would really like to thank Colby and Wtwlf and whoever else had a hand in this wonderful draft variant. Archetypes really came together. Generally, a really awesome time for everyone.
Also, I would like to add that it is an equally awesome experience for drafting with 4 players. Instead of 12 packs of 15 per player for a 2 man, 6 packs of 15 per player for a 4 man plays out very similarly. We only burn one card per pick, to simulate the person next to you drafting. When there are only 3 cards remaining, we only pick one and burn the last two.
This leaves 7 cards picked per pack, and 8 burned cards per pack. With 6 packs, this means 42 playables and 48 burned cards per player. Totaled up: 168 playable cards and 192 burned cards.
Also, as a bonus round, we took all the burned/sideboard cards and the rest of the cube to have the perfect number of cards for a second draft (I have a 450 card cube)!!! Out of the 360 cards drafted, 192 were unused. Such a tragedy! In deck building, typically 30 cards of the 42 are used (24~ + 6 nonbasics). This leaves 12 cards per player sitting in sideboards! Adding the 48 sideboard cards + 90 cards remaining in the cube + 192 burned cards, you get 330 cards! This allows us to draft again, this time using 14 card packs instead of 15.
If I were to do this again, I would have the original packs be 14 cards, and the second draft be 14 cards as will. This allows a little 'wiggle room' for players that use more than 30 of their pool in their decks.
Also, the second round unexpectedly produced much more fun games than the first round. In the first round, as you would expect, extremely synergistic and powerful cards were all drafted, allowing for very cohesive decks. In the second round, midrange and control took over, allowing for very interactive and interesting games.
I hope you guys learn from my experience. Happy drafting!
We tried a Glimpse draft this weekend with four people, each drafting 9 packs of 15, picking one, burning two. It was the first time I've ever actually drafted every single card in my cube, which was awesome.
The format got mixed reviews compared to the "normal" 5-packs-of-9-cards four-person format we normally use. The draft took longer than usual, and one person felt that it was much more of a solo experience than normal, and less interesting. People reveled in being able to hate away the cards they hate. Some folks intentionally burned cards in their colors early on, to try and force others into other colors. The decks were really strong, although not necessarily as strong as I would have predicted. It seems that the obvious bombs will get hated away, but the synergistic cards make it around the table more often. We had a strong GW fast-midrange--it couldn't even find room for Lotus Cobra, which is insane--and two functionally identical BR aggro decks that were likewise more streamlined than anything I'd seen (despite both of them being in the same exact archetype). The overall conclusion was that the draft was less interesting and longer, but the decks and gameplay more interesting.
Personally, I confronted a P1P1 with Ajani Vengeant, Grave Titan, Liliana of the Veil, and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I've been accused of overdrafting Boros Aggro, and while the Titan was probably the most powerful pick, I decided to take a risk on the combo deck, and took Kiki-Jiki (burning Grave Titan and Ajani). It turns out that no-one burns cards like Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch, Ponder, Impulse... I had a crazy amount of draw and filtering, and won all nine games without dropping any. (Naming Kiki-Jiki with both hidden agendas, Brago's Favor and Unexpected Potential, allowing me to cast it for four colorless mana, was backbreaking. In the first game against one of the BR aggro decks, they had a perfect start, and I was at 2 life at their EOT on turn three, while I had only Pondered. I think they were feeling pretty good about their chances, especially with burn in hand. I flashed in Pestermite end of turn, untapped, played my fourth land, revealed my hidden agendas and comboed out for the win turn four.)
Glimpse Draft rules question--what would you do with Conspiracy constructs like Agent of Acquisitions (i.e., can you keep all 15 cards and not burn any?) and Lurking Automaton (maximum P/T of 4/4??)
Sorry, this is turning into "It Could Only Happen in Cube..." Back to the format discussion! I think we'll go back to our normal four-man drafts most of the time, with this thrown in every so often. But everyone was very excited to try this as a 2-man draft format. I'll let you know how it goes...
Sorry, this is turning into "It Could Only Happen in Cube..." Back to the format discussion! I think we'll go back to our normal four-man drafts most of the time, with this thrown in every so often. But everyone was very excited to try this as a 2-man draft format. I'll let you know how it goes...
Most of all, thanks for the concept!
No problem! Sounds like you guys had a fun time.
The drafts after the first time usually go smoother since people have figured out how to do things a little more quickly. Not burning combo cards proved to be a fatal error for your playgroup, so you'll probably have a more interesting draft experience the next time when people learn they have to burn cards like Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch.
I don't personally play with Agent of Acquisitions, but however you guys want to do it is up to you.
If we played with the card, I would allow you to take whatever 5 cards you wanted out of a fresh pack, or 4 cards out of a pack of 12. (So you still only end up with 45 total cards at the end).
I would make Lurking Automaton count burned cards as well, so it's some multiple of 3. 3/3, 6/6, 9/9, 12/12, or 15/15.
I don't personally play with Agent of Acquisitions, but however you guys want to do it is up to you.
If we played with the card, I would allow you to take whatever 5 cards you wanted out of a fresh pack, or 4 cards out of a pack of 12. (So you still only end up with 45 total cards at the end).
Just want to chime in and say to ColdyCube and wtwlf that glimpse drafting is INSANELY AWESOME and has totally changed the way my cube plays. The powerlevel of our decks has gone up significantly, but they aren't broken. Archetypes are also WAY easier to draft than they are in Winston. It seriously feels like I'm playing a new cube. It seems like there is also a great deal more freedom of choice during the draft. The other day I started drafting a blue deck, then got some reads off my opponent and started going heavy into green and red. I was able to assemble an insane RUG Fires/Hammer deck, but I could have just as easily gone UB reanimator if I was feeling it. I also managed to put together a Grixis reanimator deck, which is something I've been trying to do forever. That feeling of building a great cube deck with a unique strategy and no filler cards is something special. I think that it happen much more frequently now that we are glimpse drafting.
If I understand correctly, Colbycube, you came up with the idea, and wtwlf, you refined it. I thank you both.
No problem! I'm glad my regular 2-man drafting partner and I came up with the idea, and just as glad wtwlf123 refined it. It's turned out way better than expected for sure.
Has anyone experimented with Canal Dredger in Glimpse Draft? I'm concerned it will be too powerful, given that each player has three times as many packs to dredge from. A pack one Dredger gives its controller 9 extra cards per opponent (to 54 in 1v1), while cutting each opponent's pool by 9 cards (to 36). Also, in 1v1 especially, it can really tip the scales, because on your fourth pick each pack, you basically get to get the best two of 6 cards, since you obviously won't burn the card you need when you're "passing" to yourself.
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Has anyone experimented with Canal Dredger in Glimpse Draft? I'm concerned it will be too powerful, given that each player has three times as many packs to dredge from. A pack one Dredger gives its controller 9 extra cards per opponent (to 54 in 1v1), while cutting each opponent's pool by 9 cards (to 36). Also, in 1v1 especially, it can really tip the scales, because on your fourth pick each pack, you basically get to get the best two of 6 cards, since you obviously won't burn the card you need when you're "passing" to yourself.
We take Canal Dredger out for our Glimpse Drafts. There's no good way to play him that doesn't make him insane.
I've been really enjoying Glimpse drafting for heads up. It lets you really force a specific strategy without having to worry about passing absurdity.
It's a lot harder with 180 cards, but if you really want to try it, you can do BurnONE.
Each player starts with 9 packs of 10.
Take one, burn one.
If I did my math right, (kinda sleepy right now) you'll have 45 cards left in your card pool at the end of the draft.
I'm not sure if this will be satisfying enough for you. We really didn't like BurnONE when we did it, but it may be very enjoyable for you!
Very happy to hear you guys found a variant that works for you.
Yeah, we didn't like BurnTWO very much when we tried it, but we also didn't try 9 packs of 15 which may be a substantially shorter draft process than 12 packs. That was our main beef with the format. We liked BurnTHREE, BurnFOUR, and BurnFIVE much better.
I'll experiment with this variant and get back to you on if we like it more or less. It might be nice to have some cards left over that you don't draft if it's only 25% of the cube.
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I agree that the process would be daunting with an additional 3 packs per player. Since you wind up with 45 cards in Glimpse Drafting, it's not necessary to use more than that per player.
Ya, it kinda leaves a happy medium between the two. Not every card shows up; it's the equivalent of doing a 6-player draft.
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If it works mathematically, you can try it, sure. Might be really fun!
No problem! Hope it goes well for you!
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I think we may even like it more than Burnfour.
Great draft variant, wtwlf123!
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Wait, so you're drafting from 270 cards with only 2 players?
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Thanks for sharing Burnfour! We just combined the elements of that and the 9x9 draft we were doing before and came up with Glimpse Drafting. We've been having a good time with it too. The deck quality is pretty outrageous.
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I thought as much. I wanted to check as it sounds like a lot. That should open up archetypes nicely, though!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Give it a shot the next time you would otherwise run a Winston. It takes more time (quite a bit more) ...but the drafting/deckbuilding process is the best part anyways, right?
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Four-man drafts, a problem that has plagued cubes since the dawn of time, is do-able (for 360 especially) with 6 packs of 15 per player then doing BurnOne, burning the odd last pick as well. Everyone will end up with 42 cards.
I don't think it's possible to do burn drafting for 6 players in a 360 cube. The most elegant solution would be to draft 5 packs of 12 per player and do burn two, burn one, then burn zero for the remaining picks. Or just burn the last three cards in each pack or burn three for the first drafter. This will result in 45 cards per person as well.
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You will need a 540-card cube if you are going to draft 4 and 6 mans regularly. Ironically, I had to increase the size of the cube (from 360) so as to cater to less players drafting, so that players can burn more per draft while still having a size-able card pool. 540-cards also made drafting 8-mans more interesting and allow for up to 12 drafters.
4-mans:
9 packs of 15 per player, draft one burn two per pick.
This is exactly like glimpse drafting, except with double the number of players. Each player ends up with a card pool of 45 cards, and the entire 540 cube is drafted.
6-mans:
6 packs of 15 per player, draft one burn one. When it comes down to the last three cards in a pack, the player picks one and burns the last two.
Burning one is less exciting than burning two, but it works beautifully with 6 players. Each player ends up with a card pool of 42 cards, and the entire 540 cube is drafted.
Cheers.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
How have your 4 mans been, Sasky? Have the decks been absolutely bonkers?
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Indeed. All the players get to play whatever archetype they want, though the really powerful pieces can get taken out early. The power level is a little lower than 2-man glimpse drafting as more people are burning cards, but a larger variety of cards getting seen means that more archetypes are easily drafted.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Since we started Glimpsing, my main 2-man partner has not wanted to even vary it up with anything else. I can't see going back to Winston or Grid anytime soon, haha.
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Indeed. I am facing the exact same situation. We're never doing any other 2-man format unless we are really tight on time, in which case we just play some modern or legacy.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Glimpse drafting is an absolute blast. I would really like to thank Colby and Wtwlf and whoever else had a hand in this wonderful draft variant. Archetypes really came together. Generally, a really awesome time for everyone.
Also, I would like to add that it is an equally awesome experience for drafting with 4 players. Instead of 12 packs of 15 per player for a 2 man, 6 packs of 15 per player for a 4 man plays out very similarly. We only burn one card per pick, to simulate the person next to you drafting. When there are only 3 cards remaining, we only pick one and burn the last two.
This leaves 7 cards picked per pack, and 8 burned cards per pack. With 6 packs, this means 42 playables and 48 burned cards per player. Totaled up: 168 playable cards and 192 burned cards.
Also, as a bonus round, we took all the burned/sideboard cards and the rest of the cube to have the perfect number of cards for a second draft (I have a 450 card cube)!!! Out of the 360 cards drafted, 192 were unused. Such a tragedy! In deck building, typically 30 cards of the 42 are used (24~ + 6 nonbasics). This leaves 12 cards per player sitting in sideboards! Adding the 48 sideboard cards + 90 cards remaining in the cube + 192 burned cards, you get 330 cards! This allows us to draft again, this time using 14 card packs instead of 15.
If I were to do this again, I would have the original packs be 14 cards, and the second draft be 14 cards as will. This allows a little 'wiggle room' for players that use more than 30 of their pool in their decks.
Also, the second round unexpectedly produced much more fun games than the first round. In the first round, as you would expect, extremely synergistic and powerful cards were all drafted, allowing for very cohesive decks. In the second round, midrange and control took over, allowing for very interactive and interesting games.
I hope you guys learn from my experience. Happy drafting!
The format got mixed reviews compared to the "normal" 5-packs-of-9-cards four-person format we normally use. The draft took longer than usual, and one person felt that it was much more of a solo experience than normal, and less interesting. People reveled in being able to hate away the cards they hate. Some folks intentionally burned cards in their colors early on, to try and force others into other colors. The decks were really strong, although not necessarily as strong as I would have predicted. It seems that the obvious bombs will get hated away, but the synergistic cards make it around the table more often. We had a strong GW fast-midrange--it couldn't even find room for Lotus Cobra, which is insane--and two functionally identical BR aggro decks that were likewise more streamlined than anything I'd seen (despite both of them being in the same exact archetype). The overall conclusion was that the draft was less interesting and longer, but the decks and gameplay more interesting.
Personally, I confronted a P1P1 with Ajani Vengeant, Grave Titan, Liliana of the Veil, and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. I've been accused of overdrafting Boros Aggro, and while the Titan was probably the most powerful pick, I decided to take a risk on the combo deck, and took Kiki-Jiki (burning Grave Titan and Ajani). It turns out that no-one burns cards like Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch, Ponder, Impulse... I had a crazy amount of draw and filtering, and won all nine games without dropping any. (Naming Kiki-Jiki with both hidden agendas, Brago's Favor and Unexpected Potential, allowing me to cast it for four colorless mana, was backbreaking. In the first game against one of the BR aggro decks, they had a perfect start, and I was at 2 life at their EOT on turn three, while I had only Pondered. I think they were feeling pretty good about their chances, especially with burn in hand. I flashed in Pestermite end of turn, untapped, played my fourth land, revealed my hidden agendas and comboed out for the win turn four.)
Glimpse Draft rules question--what would you do with Conspiracy constructs like Agent of Acquisitions (i.e., can you keep all 15 cards and not burn any?) and Lurking Automaton (maximum P/T of 4/4??)
Sorry, this is turning into "It Could Only Happen in Cube..." Back to the format discussion! I think we'll go back to our normal four-man drafts most of the time, with this thrown in every so often. But everyone was very excited to try this as a 2-man draft format. I'll let you know how it goes...
Most of all, thanks for the concept!
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No problem! Sounds like you guys had a fun time.
The drafts after the first time usually go smoother since people have figured out how to do things a little more quickly. Not burning combo cards proved to be a fatal error for your playgroup, so you'll probably have a more interesting draft experience the next time when people learn they have to burn cards like Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch.
I don't personally play with Agent of Acquisitions, but however you guys want to do it is up to you.
If we played with the card, I would allow you to take whatever 5 cards you wanted out of a fresh pack, or 4 cards out of a pack of 12. (So you still only end up with 45 total cards at the end).
I would make Lurking Automaton count burned cards as well, so it's some multiple of 3. 3/3, 6/6, 9/9, 12/12, or 15/15.
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This is how we play Agent in Glimpse.
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No problem! I'm glad my regular 2-man drafting partner and I came up with the idea, and just as glad wtwlf123 refined it. It's turned out way better than expected for sure.
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We take Canal Dredger out for our Glimpse Drafts. There's no good way to play him that doesn't make him insane.
I've been really enjoying Glimpse drafting for heads up. It lets you really force a specific strategy without having to worry about passing absurdity.