Comes in, insults how we cube, doesn't listen to a pretty fair discussion (derbk being a grump not included), says we are being super defensive, leaves when proven wrong.
see ya again in a few months, riptide!
Took the keys right out of my fingers. We get called insults like "hive mind" and "borg" and then get accused of being defensive when we respond, mostly in reasonable and fair language. Great way to promote an amicable discussion.
I'd like to see some examples of the bad treatment the OP keep saying s/he and others have received on this forum. Just because we didn't ooh and ahh and sing praises over your ideas doesn't mean you were treated badly. Disagreement is not the same as attack.
Cheers,
rant
Good grief. I've repeatedly praised this forum - in this very post even - and I've done it repeatedly in the past (whether I agreed with people or not). And I will continue to do that because there is valuable information here and knowledgeable individuals. All you are focusing on is the negative things I'm saying and your disregarding everything else I'm posting.
Am I not allowed to criticize? Because I'm certainly getting my fair share of it right now. And I'm not being unfair about most of the negative things I'm posting (the Borg comment may have been a little far, I apologize). The "hive mind" thing though is not a figment of my imagination. It's a fair criticism of this site. But there is a logical reason for why there is a collective minset as a previous poster very eloquently described (read that reply as it was well stated and I won't be able to say it better). So I get why it exists even if I don't like it and think it squashes outside the box thinking.
As far as your last statement. There are plenty of examples of people making disrespectful and condescending replies on this forum. In this very thread even. Asking me for examples is being dismissive and coy because you really don't need to look hard to find them. I certainly haven't always taken the high road (I'm not perfect and don't pretend to be), but I have tried very hard to be civil. The same cannot be said about several posters on this forum. I could certainly be much nastier and/or call people out by name but that wouldn't really accomplish anything.
I've presented a different perspective on cubing. I've given logical reasons why I think there is validity to that thinking. I've asked that people be more tolerant of different ideas because I feel it will help this forum. This is all I really wanted to accomplish with this thread. At this point, I'd just like us all to move on.
I don't know if I can request this of the mods, but I'd be perfectly fine if you locked this thread. I have no desire to get wrapped up into another flame war. I said what I came to say.
I have no desire to get wrapped up into another flame war. I said what I came to say.
Which was basically to flame us, and then bow out.
Quote from ahadabans »
The "hive mind" thing though is not a figment of my imagination. It's a fair criticism of this site.
And a fair criticism of your site. And every site. When you get a group of like-minded folks together, to share ideas, learn from each other and benefit from each others' experiences, that's what you get. It's not a "hive mind" ...it's a forum. What you're describing is its purpose.
Quote from rantipole »
We get called insults like "hive mind" and "borg" and then get accused of being defensive when we respond, mostly in reasonable and fair language. Great way to promote an amicable discussion.
I can't describe what's happened here and in previous threads any more accurately than this.
I said this the last time this kind of topic came up. If you see a lack in the community somewhere, then fill it if you feel that you want to.
ahadabans, I get your point, and I'll see if I can keep this short because the walls of text in this thread could hold off a Mongolian horde. It sounds like many members of the Riptide Lab community felt they had to leave this forum in order to find a place for themselves, and that's sad. The truth is that they didn't, and now it sounds like they nurse a resentment that really only hurts themselves. Yeah, sometimes a few of us can be a little too eager to pounce on anyone that has a divergent viewpoint, or an idea we consider "wrong" rather, and a little too willing to argue it until we're blue in the face. I'm guilty of that myself.
Riptide Lab has done themselves and us a grave disservice by fracturing the cube community into two camps, the open-minded us of Riptide Lab, and those dirty, stubborn, powermax cubers over at MTGS. I'd love to see a thread called the Casual Cube Discussion Thread, or the Power Controlled Cube Discussion Thread, hell even the Riptide Lab Anarchist Uprising Cube Discussion Thread. It's like the Amish, or low carbon footprint groups of cube. You all have a place here. You just have to create your own context. A few of us did it with the multiplayer, EDH cube thread. The peasant/pauper community created their own subforum for it. There is no one saying you can't do the same here other than you guys.
I keep saying 'flame war' being mentioned by ahadabans. One hasn't occurred and one won't occur, not on here. Persecution complexes aside, no-one has been rude (dismissive? Possibly, to a reasonable degree) and there's no reason to cop out and leave the thread. The discussion has been pretty constructive, so calling for a thread lock smacks of martyrdom at this point.
Edit - Also, go to the riptide site and run a search for any of these terms "mtgs", "salvation", "wtwlf", or "powermax" and see what results come up and how they talk about this site. I just ran a search for riptide on this site and outside of this discussion, the last comment was Humpty_Dumpty advising someone to visit their site as they would be more open to the ideas suggested. We are even advertising for them in a positive light.
I just did exactly this and o boy is that depressing... Why the hatred? Internet disagreements over cube philosophy sure are very serious business to some. As Cuttups said this resentment is not mutual. Most of us here would be interested in what they have to say, even if we don't agree. The vitriol and nose snubbing is just too painful to read. I also find it interesting as the games Jason played with our cube mad him dislike Powermax so bad that he never came back, wrote an article about the experience and in the end split the community.
Also I read some random discussions about cards on Riptide and had a feeling most discussions lacked depth. The design restrictions people had were pretty different and in the end it looked like a lot of slightly flimsy oppinions where people agreed as long as it wasn't called Powermax.
Edit - Also, go to the riptide site and run a search for any of these terms "mtgs", "salvation", "wtwlf", or "powermax" and see what results come up and how they talk about this site. I just ran a search for riptide on this site and outside of this discussion, the last comment was Humpty_Dumpty advising someone to visit their site as they would be more open to the ideas suggested. We are even advertising for them in a positive light.
I just did exactly this and o boy is that depressing... Why the hatred? Internet disagreements over cube philosophy sure are very serious business to some. As Cuttups said this resentment is not mutual. Most of us here would be interested in what they have to say, even if we don't agree. The vitriol and nose snubbing is just too painful to read. I also find it interesting as the games Jason played with our cube mad him dislike Powermax so bad that he never came back, wrote an article about the experience and in the end split the community.
Also I read some random discussions about cards on Riptide and had a feeling most discussions lacked depth. The design restrictions people had were pretty different and in the end it looked like a lot of slightly flimsy oppinions where people agreed as long as it wasn't called Powermax.
All in all, pretty weird.
I just went over to Riptide for the first time, and tried those search queries. It does seem bad, but it is just two or three dudes with a bad taste in their mouth though.
On the subject of Hivemind. Yes there is a semblance of a Hivemind here, when it comes to what cards to run if you're looking for the most powerful limited environment possible. Although, wtwlf123 and other prominent posters here will be the first to say that you should cater to your own playgroup. That doesn't stop them offering their own opinions though.
Yeah I think there's a hive mind to an extent, but not as bad as op seems to be making it. If there was too much of a hivemind here, there wouldn't be nearly as many [SCD] threads as there are. Hell, I cut Jitte just this morning because I decided it was too much of an auto-include to keep it in unpowered, and I don't feel like anyone here is going to stop responding to my posts because of it. (People might arguing that leaving cards like Balance and Recurring Nightmare in while cutting Jitte is a bit hypocritical but that's neither here nor there.)
I mean, you have people like me here who run silver-bordered cards, and you have people like wtwlf who won't run anything that isn't vintage legal, and since neither of those groups have been run off the site its difficult to say that there's a massive hivemind in place.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
I just went over to Riptide for the first time, and tried those search queries. It does seem bad, but it is just two or three dudes with a bad taste in their mouth though.
Forum dynamics are interesting. Usually a forum self-moderates to create the atmosphere they want. Any poster who came in here spouting insults in Riptide's style would be shouted down or laughed out of town, not to mention having actual moderators here to keep things in line. Folks on the other side are either unable or unwilling to rein their bad apples in, and that says a lot about their agenda
Also I read some random discussions about cards on Riptide and had a feeling most discussions lacked depth. The design restrictions people had were pretty different and in the end it looked like a lot of slightly flimsy oppinions where people agreed as long as it wasn't called Powermax.
All in all, pretty weird.
Pretty much this. Riptide is popcorn entertainment. Like the Tumblr of the cube world. Occasionally interesting ideas, lost in a sea of inanity. I browse the site solely for entertainment value and see a fraction of the serious discussion generated on MTGS.
The most problematic for me is OP's self-admission of being a lapsed cuber - no regular play group, an irrational hatred of planeswalkers, power creep, and modern design in general - yet has some kind of messiah complex where they feel obligated to try and convince (or maybe poach? some kind of weird Riptide recruitment tactic?) forum-goers of the special snowflakeness that Riptide has. It's a well-intentioned, yet frustrated attempt that spirals out of control as they realize that they aren't equal to the task. Whatever novelty value and goodwill they might garner is wasted by the forum's general lack of quality. It's a minority that painted themselves into a corner and are now trapped there.
I did like the nerfmax label, though. Now I have a sudden urge to go look at neon-colored toy cards guns.
I'm going to chime in and share my experiences, and I hope that through what I'm about to say there can be a way to co-exist without the flaming. Only by being honest with oneself can we truly see who we are and move forward.
---
I consider myself to be one of the nicest people I know. I get along with virtually everybody, and have friends from many different parts of the country, world, and in all walks of life. My wife tells me all the time 'you're nicer than I am'. Even though I will banter on here emotionally, never would I consider anyone on these boards an 'enemy'; everyone I have met from these boards and through The Third Power have been nothing but awesome.
That said, I have little tolerance for people who talk junk or other such things about me or my friends. I've called numerous people out at Magic events for being a jerk to me or my friends - including 'high profile' people who have won SCG Opens - and will continue to do so with no reservation.
I am admitting that not all of us here at MTGS have never gone over to Riptide to criticize, because I did go over and throw some flames because I was effectively called a liar in the most arrogant way possible. Here is the link to the thread; it's only a few posts long:
(Afterwards I was also criticized for 'necroing' the thread, even though I replied the day after I heard about the thread. I've also been referenced as a "self-proclaimed Cube expert who came over to pick fights" or some such by admins from that site...I'm also amused by the 'don't attack people here' post immediately after mine)
While I have had my frustrations here trying to get my point across to people regarding one thing or another, I don't remember ever giving or receiving personal insults to the level I've experienced over there. It makes it really hard to want to be a part of that community, even though I'm sure there are ideas over there that could be used to make my Cubing experience better. It's an odd experience being a Cube hipster by having one for so long, and now being considered 'old school' because my Cubes looks for fun in certain ways and not others!
-AA
P.S. Also, quotes found on various searches on Riptide:
"Suck it MTGS, this is where the intellectual cube discussion happens." -site admin
"Isn't the refusal to explore that design space what makes MTGS or the Modo Cube a cesspit?" -prolific poster
These aren't the signs of a welcoming community, ahadabans.
We should probably be careful not to let this devolve into a flamewar after all.
Correct. ahadabans actually hasn't mentioned Riptide forums at all, nor saying it is a better forum than this one. People are definitely getting defensive about it.
From my perspective, he is saying there is room for improvement on this board. He wants people to be more open to new ideas and ones more different than the mainstream. Cutting powerful cards certainly gives you more choice when it comes to what you put in your cube.
My point was to admit that I cast stones, and whether I should have is up for debate. I don't want people to think that members from here have never posted over there, or had anything negative to say about it. I did, and just wanted to bring that to light.
My purpose was not to re-flame, but instead to just illuminate a perhaps unknown history.
I asked op to make this thread because I just wanted to talk about the potential advantages of cubing with lower powered cards in some circumstances and I didn't want to derail the "this or that" thread. Why are we arguing about riptide lab and insulting each other?
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I asked op to make this thread because I just wanted to talk about the potential advantages of cubing with lower powered cards in some circumstances and I didn't want to derail the "this or that" thread. Why are we arguing about riptide lab and insulting each other?
Because the thread opened with a post accusing this forum of completely ignoring any opinion that wasn't the majority and being a hive mind and whatever. The riptide lab discussion seems to have started because they generally have almost the exact opposite goal of the cubers here. If you wanted to discuss that, you probably should have just posted in the "cutting cube "staples"" thread or started a thread with that in the op rather than what was in the one for this thread.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
I participate both here and at Riptide, though I don't post a lot in either place. I think having multiple forums is fine, it lets different ideas build momentum. I can understand how specific people who've been called out would be bothered, but I think we all should relax a bit about the forum-level bashing. If people on either site occasionally dismiss the other, that's fine, it's plain to see there's disagreement in some places. It's just natural for people to try to define themselves by putting others down or highlighting differences.
I think there's a lot of room for different takes on cubes, and I think there's some value in discussions happening in parallel, but hopefully the natural amount of friction between people who disagree doesn't turn into a rivalry that gets in the way of taking about cards.
ahadabans: Your ideas would be a lot more palatable to the rest of us if they weren't so obviously coming from a place of affected superiority. From your post on Riptide Lab, 3 days ago:
I think there is a lot more you can do with this format. It doesn't have to just be about running the best cards ever printed and power-maxing to kingdom come. That idea is really 2005 at this point.
You don't actually want to have an interesting debate; you want to bring the heathens into the light.
Look. I don't disagree that this forum can be hostile to new ideas that challenge received wisdom--the Venser, Shaper Savant thread essentially made me quit posting here, though I continue to enjoy lurking. But from my vantage point in the cheap seats, things have gotten immeasurably better. You (and I actually mean YOU in this case) have done a tremendous job in changing the posting culture for the better after you made a stink about the incivility of this place. People now are, on the whole, more polite and less likely to condemn out of the box thinking. And yes, that includes wtwlf, who for whatever reason is something of a bogeyman over at Riptide Lab.
Take it from a disinterested party: your ideas aren't being belittled or scorned. Cheer up!
I asked op to make this thread because I just wanted to talk about the potential advantages of cubing with lower powered cards in some circumstances and I didn't want to derail the "this or that" thread. Why are we arguing about riptide lab and insulting each other?
Unfortunately the topic opened with a personal rant. Even the title is asking for flames.
This is the "Power-max, the Hive mind and Lightning Bolt" thread. It is mainly about how this community acts, not about low-power cubes themselves. That is secondary at best here.
It would be good to have an actual "lower power cube discussion" thread, with no accusations or ramblings against those who simply don't like this style. This one never was that.
EDIT: Apparently, this was my post #666. Interesting.
Why are we arguing about riptide lab and insulting each other?
Ask the OP in a PM. Maybe he can answer that for you.
Quote from Big Jim »
I can understand how specific people who've been called out would be bothered, but I think we all should relax a bit about the forum-level bashing. If people on either site occasionally dismiss the other, that's fine, it's plain to see there's disagreement in some places. It's just natural for people to try to define themselves by putting others down or highlighting differences.
Have you read both forums? Point to the constant riptide flaming that takes place on here. Oh, it doesn't take place. Even by people like myself and Anthony that have been personally attacked and ridiculed on a site we don't even post in. And why? Because we have different cube philosophies? Give me a break.
Here's a summary of what happened. They came here and criticized pretty much every aspect of how we design cubes. We defended our positions, and posted reasons why their alternate means and methods didn't work for us. They felt like their ideas were being overly criticized and ignored (even though that was exactly what they came here to do to us). Basically, they felt like it was okay for them to show up and be overly critical and judgmental about how we cube, but it's not okay for us to be critical of their ideas. So they created their own place where they can be loose of the "tyranny" of MTGS's "hive mind", and they'd be free to spit vitriol and commence personal attacks against myself, Anthony, our design concepts and the MTGS cube community as a whole.
So please, don't undersell their personal attacks and unwarranted hatred by labeling it as "occasionally dismissing each other" ...because that's insulting to the people who are being attacked.
The atmosphere at the other forum, whatever it is, is secondary to point of this thread. It should only be discussed here in reference to the primary point of this thread, which is the reception of divergent ideas in the MTGS cube community. I say that because doing anything else will lead down a path better left alone.
I think Antknee is right, some honest self-reflection is what is called for here. It's one thing to say that differing philosophies are able to carve out their own space to be developed here on these boards. It's another thing entirely to say that we actively help to cultivate a space for these ideas to develop. Allowing the former is not the same as doing the latter. Also, how often in our dicussion are we more focused on being right and proving our points, than we are in giving consideration to where different ideas might fit? The two are not mutually exclusive, but the more of one you focus on the less room there is for the other. I'd rather my own behavior were more in line with cultivation and consideration, but my own self-reflection informs me that I have occassionally fallen short of that ideal.
I run a much lower-powered cube than is normal here, and do things like try to wait until rotation to pick up pricier cards. As a result, I need to filter or translate much of the content here in order to make it applicable to my cube. And that's not such a big deal. I like not being able to "netdeck" my cube.
There is a general presumption about what a cube "is" here, but that seems to me to be a useful shorthand that allows the broadest discussion. And yes, there are sometimes some strongly worded opinions of the I-can't-believe-you-run-that-crap variety, but they are few and far between, and not at all indicative of the general tone of things. I am careful to preface my questions with a quick note about my cube's idiosyncrasies, and I've received invaluable advice over the years.
It does mean that I actively look elsewhere for ideas for the cube, and I'm struck by how different the opinions of this forum (in aggregate) are from reddit/cube, The Magic Box, and kranny's Joy of Cubing. Since this is the main place I get cube content, I can be amazed to hear such drastically different opinions equally forcefully made. If you want to call differing aggregate opinions a hivemind, you can I guess, but to me it's simply how communities aggregate. As long as the tone is civil, it's all good.
I was one of the first people on riptidelabs, and I still go over there a bit, but stopped posting because the tone increasingly bothered me. When I read the thread Anthony mentioned, I was frankly embarrassed to be have my name on the site. I think it's only a couple of people driving that tone, but I see absolutely no reason for it. There's good content and posts there, but it's a pity it has degraded into an us-versus-them thing.
We have a TON of regular posters here with dramatically different ideas of what creates a perfect cube environment, and we all manage to get along and have positive constructive discussion. My cube and Anthony's are very different. Our philosophies are very different. I nominated him for "cube designer of the year" in back to back years. We have powered and unpowered discussion, budget cubes and expensive cubes, rare cubes and C/Ubes, tribal cubes, multiplayer/EDH cubes, cubes that ban cards for power-level and those that don't. Cubes w/ Un- cards, cubes that follow a Legacy banned list, modern cubes, classic cubes, 1994 format cubes, cubes that run multiples, 1-drop cubes, Myr Servitor cubes, dragon cubes, aggro cubes, block cubes and every other type of cube under the sun. And we all get along, share experiences and provide valuable feedback for each other. We have 180-card cubes and 810-card cubes and a plethora of everything in-between.
People designing common/uncommon cubes realized that their goals are dramatically different from those that run more traditional lists. So they preface their commentary and experiences with the disclaimer that they're discussing those kinds of cubes. Same goes for the people that play powered/unpowered lists, or ones that are focussed on multiplayer or EDH-type play. There's more than enough room here for separate discussion regarding cubes that are focussed on creating fairer and more balanced "parity" environments. But that wasn't the intent when they set out. It was to explain why what we're doing is wrong and what they're doing is right. It was never about joining in on the discussion as much as it was about recruiting for the cause. Scrutinizing the faults of traditional cubes without accepting the criticism about their ideas. Everybody else, regardless of cube philosophies has been able to gel and create a wonderful, friendly forum here. Free of personal attacks, name-calling and ridicule. But sometimes that's not enough.
The atmosphere at the other forum, whatever it is, is secondary to point of this thread. It should only be discussed here in reference to the primary point of this thread, which is the reception of divergent ideas in the MTGS cube community. I say that because doing anything else will lead down a path better left alone.
I think Antknee is right, some honest self-reflection is what is called for here. It's one thing to say that differing philosophies are able to carve out their own space to be developed here on these boards. It's another thing entirely to say that we actively help to cultivate a space for these ideas to develop. Allowing the former is not the same as doing the latter. Also, how often in our dicussion are we more focused on being right and proving our points, than we are in giving consideration to where different ideas might fit? The two are not mutually exclusive, but the more of one you focus on the less room there is for the other. I'd rather my own behavior were more in line with cultivation and consideration, but my own self-reflection informs me that I have occassionally fallen short of that ideal.
I do quite a lot of things differently with my cube and I often disagree with the opinions of others. But when someone tells me my ideas are wrong, it doesn't make me upset. Sometimes I am wrong and need to learn something and other times I'm in a different environment from them and our ideas just diverge. I don't really see the problem that OP sees with this forum because when I'm talking about my cube I frame the discussion as such and I don't expect others to do the same things. And in the worst case scenarios where I just can't get any useful discussion going, no big deal. That just means there was one aspect of my cube that I need to talk about with other people instead of discussing here.
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An accurate description of myself:
Quote from Megiddo »
You're the dude who just lies a lot and makes people hate you and then magically becomes town later, right?
I can understand how specific people who've been called out would be bothered, but I think we all should relax a bit about the forum-level bashing. If people on either site occasionally dismiss the other, that's fine, it's plain to see there's disagreement in some places. It's just natural for people to try to define themselves by putting others down or highlighting differences.
Have you read both forums? Point to the constant riptide flaming that takes place on here. Oh, it doesn't take place. Even by people like myself and Anthony that have been personally attacked and ridiculed on a site we don't even post in. And why? Because we have different cube philosophies? Give me a break.
Here's a summary of what happened. They came here and criticized pretty much every aspect of how we design cubes. We defended our positions, and posted reasons why their alternate means and methods didn't work for us. They felt like their ideas were being overly criticized and ignored (even though that was exactly what they came here to do to us). Basically, they felt like it was okay for them to show up and be overly critical and judgmental about how we cube, but it's not okay for us to be critical of their ideas. So they created their own place where they can be loose of the "tyranny" of MTGS's "hive mind", and they'd be free to spit vitriol and commence personal attacks against myself, Anthony, our design concepts and the MTGS cube community as a whole.
So please, don't undersell their personal attacks and unwarranted hatred by labeling it as "occasionally dismissing each other" ...because that's insulting to the people who are being attacked.
Let me say again that I'm not saying personal attacks are okay. I definitely had you in mind in the first sentence of what you quoted. I was addressing other people who are making a "they are like this, but we are like this" type statement. I think you have every right to be annoyed and call them out for being rude, and I can support that. For the rest of us, I don't think there's a lot to be gained by criticizing riptidelab as a group and vice-versa. I didn't mean to downplay rude and uncalled for comments directed at you or other prominent posters here, I was mostly speaking to the members of the unwashed rabble like me. Even if riptidelab is rude towards MTGS as a whole, we shouldn't sink to that level. Ultimately, it lowers the quality of discussion.
Have you read both forums? Point to the constant riptide flaming that takes place on here. Oh, it doesn't take place. Even by people like myself and Anthony that have been personally attacked and ridiculed on a site we don't even post in. And why? Because we have different cube philosophies? Give me a break.
Just had to bring this part up because it wouldn't make sense for this place to flame riptide lab - this is a huge forum with over 150,000 members (albeit significantly less in the Cube forum and active posters, but still) and Riptide is really just a baby. If I had a smaller, newer burger joint, I might say that we're much better than McDonald's, but I wouldn't expect McDonald's to ever say a word about us.
I haven't ready read enough on Riptide to form a full judgement, so I won't offer any sort of opinions, but I know that I definitely have had some disagreements with Jason's overall Cube philosophy.
I think we should listen to Reason when he says "there is room for improvement on this board." Partially because I always think there's room for improvement, and mostly because I wanted to say that we should listen to Reason.
Good grief. I've repeatedly praised this forum - in this very post even - and I've done it repeatedly in the past (whether I agreed with people or not). And I will continue to do that because there is valuable information here and knowledgeable individuals. All you are focusing on is the negative things I'm saying and your disregarding everything else I'm posting.
Am I not allowed to criticize? Because I'm certainly getting my fair share of it right now. And I'm not being unfair about most of the negative things I'm posting (the Borg comment may have been a little far, I apologize). The "hive mind" thing though is not a figment of my imagination. It's a fair criticism of this site. But there is a logical reason for why there is a collective minset as a previous poster very eloquently described (read that reply as it was well stated and I won't be able to say it better). So I get why it exists even if I don't like it and think it squashes outside the box thinking.
As far as your last statement. There are plenty of examples of people making disrespectful and condescending replies on this forum. In this very thread even. Asking me for examples is being dismissive and coy because you really don't need to look hard to find them. I certainly haven't always taken the high road (I'm not perfect and don't pretend to be), but I have tried very hard to be civil. The same cannot be said about several posters on this forum. I could certainly be much nastier and/or call people out by name but that wouldn't really accomplish anything.
I've presented a different perspective on cubing. I've given logical reasons why I think there is validity to that thinking. I've asked that people be more tolerant of different ideas because I feel it will help this forum. This is all I really wanted to accomplish with this thread. At this point, I'd just like us all to move on.
I don't know if I can request this of the mods, but I'd be perfectly fine if you locked this thread. I have no desire to get wrapped up into another flame war. I said what I came to say.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Are we not?
Which was basically to flame us, and then bow out.
And a fair criticism of your site. And every site. When you get a group of like-minded folks together, to share ideas, learn from each other and benefit from each others' experiences, that's what you get. It's not a "hive mind" ...it's a forum. What you're describing is its purpose.
I can't describe what's happened here and in previous threads any more accurately than this.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
ahadabans, I get your point, and I'll see if I can keep this short because the walls of text in this thread could hold off a Mongolian horde. It sounds like many members of the Riptide Lab community felt they had to leave this forum in order to find a place for themselves, and that's sad. The truth is that they didn't, and now it sounds like they nurse a resentment that really only hurts themselves. Yeah, sometimes a few of us can be a little too eager to pounce on anyone that has a divergent viewpoint, or an idea we consider "wrong" rather, and a little too willing to argue it until we're blue in the face. I'm guilty of that myself.
Riptide Lab has done themselves and us a grave disservice by fracturing the cube community into two camps, the open-minded us of Riptide Lab, and those dirty, stubborn, powermax cubers over at MTGS. I'd love to see a thread called the Casual Cube Discussion Thread, or the Power Controlled Cube Discussion Thread, hell even the Riptide Lab Anarchist Uprising Cube Discussion Thread. It's like the Amish, or low carbon footprint groups of cube. You all have a place here. You just have to create your own context. A few of us did it with the multiplayer, EDH cube thread. The peasant/pauper community created their own subforum for it. There is no one saying you can't do the same here other than you guys.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I just did exactly this and o boy is that depressing... Why the hatred? Internet disagreements over cube philosophy sure are very serious business to some. As Cuttups said this resentment is not mutual. Most of us here would be interested in what they have to say, even if we don't agree. The vitriol and nose snubbing is just too painful to read. I also find it interesting as the games Jason played with our cube mad him dislike Powermax so bad that he never came back, wrote an article about the experience and in the end split the community.
Also I read some random discussions about cards on Riptide and had a feeling most discussions lacked depth. The design restrictions people had were pretty different and in the end it looked like a lot of slightly flimsy oppinions where people agreed as long as it wasn't called Powermax.
All in all, pretty weird.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I just went over to Riptide for the first time, and tried those search queries. It does seem bad, but it is just two or three dudes with a bad taste in their mouth though.
On the subject of Hivemind. Yes there is a semblance of a Hivemind here, when it comes to what cards to run if you're looking for the most powerful limited environment possible. Although, wtwlf123 and other prominent posters here will be the first to say that you should cater to your own playgroup. That doesn't stop them offering their own opinions though.
Juju Alters - Altered MTG Cards
I mean, you have people like me here who run silver-bordered cards, and you have people like wtwlf who won't run anything that isn't vintage legal, and since neither of those groups have been run off the site its difficult to say that there's a massive hivemind in place.
Forum dynamics are interesting. Usually a forum self-moderates to create the atmosphere they want. Any poster who came in here spouting insults in Riptide's style would be shouted down or laughed out of town, not to mention having actual moderators here to keep things in line. Folks on the other side are either unable or unwilling to rein their bad apples in, and that says a lot about their agenda
Pretty much this. Riptide is popcorn entertainment. Like the Tumblr of the cube world. Occasionally interesting ideas, lost in a sea of inanity. I browse the site solely for entertainment value and see a fraction of the serious discussion generated on MTGS.
The most problematic for me is OP's self-admission of being a lapsed cuber - no regular play group, an irrational hatred of planeswalkers, power creep, and modern design in general - yet has some kind of messiah complex where they feel obligated to try and convince (or maybe poach? some kind of weird Riptide recruitment tactic?) forum-goers of the special snowflakeness that Riptide has. It's a well-intentioned, yet frustrated attempt that spirals out of control as they realize that they aren't equal to the task. Whatever novelty value and goodwill they might garner is wasted by the forum's general lack of quality. It's a minority that painted themselves into a corner and are now trapped there.
I did like the nerfmax label, though. Now I have a sudden urge to go look at neon-colored toy
cardsguns.And EDIT:
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
---
I consider myself to be one of the nicest people I know. I get along with virtually everybody, and have friends from many different parts of the country, world, and in all walks of life. My wife tells me all the time 'you're nicer than I am'. Even though I will banter on here emotionally, never would I consider anyone on these boards an 'enemy'; everyone I have met from these boards and through The Third Power have been nothing but awesome.
That said, I have little tolerance for people who talk junk or other such things about me or my friends. I've called numerous people out at Magic events for being a jerk to me or my friends - including 'high profile' people who have won SCG Opens - and will continue to do so with no reservation.
I am admitting that not all of us here at MTGS have never gone over to Riptide to criticize, because I did go over and throw some flames because I was effectively called a liar in the most arrogant way possible. Here is the link to the thread; it's only a few posts long:
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/a-brief-timeline-of-cube-history.185/
(Afterwards I was also criticized for 'necroing' the thread, even though I replied the day after I heard about the thread. I've also been referenced as a "self-proclaimed Cube expert who came over to pick fights" or some such by admins from that site...I'm also amused by the 'don't attack people here' post immediately after mine)
While I have had my frustrations here trying to get my point across to people regarding one thing or another, I don't remember ever giving or receiving personal insults to the level I've experienced over there. It makes it really hard to want to be a part of that community, even though I'm sure there are ideas over there that could be used to make my Cubing experience better. It's an odd experience being a Cube hipster by having one for so long, and now being considered 'old school' because my Cubes looks for fun in certain ways and not others!
-AA
P.S. Also, quotes found on various searches on Riptide:
"Suck it MTGS, this is where the intellectual cube discussion happens." -site admin
"Isn't the refusal to explore that design space what makes MTGS or the Modo Cube a cesspit?" -prolific poster
These aren't the signs of a welcoming community, ahadabans.
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
From my perspective, he is saying there is room for improvement on this board. He wants people to be more open to new ideas and ones more different than the mainstream. Cutting powerful cards certainly gives you more choice when it comes to what you put in your cube.
Cubetutor link - 380 Peasant Cube
My purpose was not to re-flame, but instead to just illuminate a perhaps unknown history.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Because the thread opened with a post accusing this forum of completely ignoring any opinion that wasn't the majority and being a hive mind and whatever. The riptide lab discussion seems to have started because they generally have almost the exact opposite goal of the cubers here. If you wanted to discuss that, you probably should have just posted in the "cutting cube "staples"" thread or started a thread with that in the op rather than what was in the one for this thread.
I think there's a lot of room for different takes on cubes, and I think there's some value in discussions happening in parallel, but hopefully the natural amount of friction between people who disagree doesn't turn into a rivalry that gets in the way of taking about cards.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
You don't actually want to have an interesting debate; you want to bring the heathens into the light.
Look. I don't disagree that this forum can be hostile to new ideas that challenge received wisdom--the Venser, Shaper Savant thread essentially made me quit posting here, though I continue to enjoy lurking. But from my vantage point in the cheap seats, things have gotten immeasurably better. You (and I actually mean YOU in this case) have done a tremendous job in changing the posting culture for the better after you made a stink about the incivility of this place. People now are, on the whole, more polite and less likely to condemn out of the box thinking. And yes, that includes wtwlf, who for whatever reason is something of a bogeyman over at Riptide Lab.
Take it from a disinterested party: your ideas aren't being belittled or scorned. Cheer up!
My Cube on Cube Tutor
Unfortunately the topic opened with a personal rant. Even the title is asking for flames.
This is the "Power-max, the Hive mind and Lightning Bolt" thread. It is mainly about how this community acts, not about low-power cubes themselves. That is secondary at best here.
It would be good to have an actual "lower power cube discussion" thread, with no accusations or ramblings against those who simply don't like this style. This one never was that.
EDIT: Apparently, this was my post #666. Interesting.
Ask the OP in a PM. Maybe he can answer that for you.
Have you read both forums? Point to the constant riptide flaming that takes place on here. Oh, it doesn't take place. Even by people like myself and Anthony that have been personally attacked and ridiculed on a site we don't even post in. And why? Because we have different cube philosophies? Give me a break.
Here's a summary of what happened. They came here and criticized pretty much every aspect of how we design cubes. We defended our positions, and posted reasons why their alternate means and methods didn't work for us. They felt like their ideas were being overly criticized and ignored (even though that was exactly what they came here to do to us). Basically, they felt like it was okay for them to show up and be overly critical and judgmental about how we cube, but it's not okay for us to be critical of their ideas. So they created their own place where they can be loose of the "tyranny" of MTGS's "hive mind", and they'd be free to spit vitriol and commence personal attacks against myself, Anthony, our design concepts and the MTGS cube community as a whole.
So please, don't undersell their personal attacks and unwarranted hatred by labeling it as "occasionally dismissing each other" ...because that's insulting to the people who are being attacked.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think Antknee is right, some honest self-reflection is what is called for here. It's one thing to say that differing philosophies are able to carve out their own space to be developed here on these boards. It's another thing entirely to say that we actively help to cultivate a space for these ideas to develop. Allowing the former is not the same as doing the latter. Also, how often in our dicussion are we more focused on being right and proving our points, than we are in giving consideration to where different ideas might fit? The two are not mutually exclusive, but the more of one you focus on the less room there is for the other. I'd rather my own behavior were more in line with cultivation and consideration, but my own self-reflection informs me that I have occassionally fallen short of that ideal.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I run a much lower-powered cube than is normal here, and do things like try to wait until rotation to pick up pricier cards. As a result, I need to filter or translate much of the content here in order to make it applicable to my cube. And that's not such a big deal. I like not being able to "netdeck" my cube.
There is a general presumption about what a cube "is" here, but that seems to me to be a useful shorthand that allows the broadest discussion. And yes, there are sometimes some strongly worded opinions of the I-can't-believe-you-run-that-crap variety, but they are few and far between, and not at all indicative of the general tone of things. I am careful to preface my questions with a quick note about my cube's idiosyncrasies, and I've received invaluable advice over the years.
It does mean that I actively look elsewhere for ideas for the cube, and I'm struck by how different the opinions of this forum (in aggregate) are from reddit/cube, The Magic Box, and kranny's Joy of Cubing. Since this is the main place I get cube content, I can be amazed to hear such drastically different opinions equally forcefully made. If you want to call differing aggregate opinions a hivemind, you can I guess, but to me it's simply how communities aggregate. As long as the tone is civil, it's all good.
I was one of the first people on riptidelabs, and I still go over there a bit, but stopped posting because the tone increasingly bothered me. When I read the thread Anthony mentioned, I was frankly embarrassed to be have my name on the site. I think it's only a couple of people driving that tone, but I see absolutely no reason for it. There's good content and posts there, but it's a pity it has degraded into an us-versus-them thing.
My $40 MTGO cube
Draft my cube at Cubetutor!
People designing common/uncommon cubes realized that their goals are dramatically different from those that run more traditional lists. So they preface their commentary and experiences with the disclaimer that they're discussing those kinds of cubes. Same goes for the people that play powered/unpowered lists, or ones that are focussed on multiplayer or EDH-type play. There's more than enough room here for separate discussion regarding cubes that are focussed on creating fairer and more balanced "parity" environments. But that wasn't the intent when they set out. It was to explain why what we're doing is wrong and what they're doing is right. It was never about joining in on the discussion as much as it was about recruiting for the cause. Scrutinizing the faults of traditional cubes without accepting the criticism about their ideas. Everybody else, regardless of cube philosophies has been able to gel and create a wonderful, friendly forum here. Free of personal attacks, name-calling and ridicule. But sometimes that's not enough.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I do quite a lot of things differently with my cube and I often disagree with the opinions of others. But when someone tells me my ideas are wrong, it doesn't make me upset. Sometimes I am wrong and need to learn something and other times I'm in a different environment from them and our ideas just diverge. I don't really see the problem that OP sees with this forum because when I'm talking about my cube I frame the discussion as such and I don't expect others to do the same things. And in the worst case scenarios where I just can't get any useful discussion going, no big deal. That just means there was one aspect of my cube that I need to talk about with other people instead of discussing here.
My cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9981
Let me say again that I'm not saying personal attacks are okay. I definitely had you in mind in the first sentence of what you quoted. I was addressing other people who are making a "they are like this, but we are like this" type statement. I think you have every right to be annoyed and call them out for being rude, and I can support that. For the rest of us, I don't think there's a lot to be gained by criticizing riptidelab as a group and vice-versa. I didn't mean to downplay rude and uncalled for comments directed at you or other prominent posters here, I was mostly speaking to the members of the unwashed rabble like me. Even if riptidelab is rude towards MTGS as a whole, we shouldn't sink to that level. Ultimately, it lowers the quality of discussion.
Just had to bring this part up because it wouldn't make sense for this place to flame riptide lab - this is a huge forum with over 150,000 members (albeit significantly less in the Cube forum and active posters, but still) and Riptide is really just a baby. If I had a smaller, newer burger joint, I might say that we're much better than McDonald's, but I wouldn't expect McDonald's to ever say a word about us.
I haven't ready read enough on Riptide to form a full judgement, so I won't offer any sort of opinions, but I know that I definitely have had some disagreements with Jason's overall Cube philosophy.
I think we should listen to Reason when he says "there is room for improvement on this board." Partially because I always think there's room for improvement, and mostly because I wanted to say that we should listen to Reason.
-rexx
Draft my 540 card powered cube here: http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/36935