The Official Cube Discussion Thread

  • #1

    The Cube

    Imagine sitting down for a booster draft. You've drafted plenty of times before. You know that you can deal with whatever the boosters throw at you. You open up the following pack:


    So many options. You can take the safe pick with the Ingot or the Top, because you'll probably find a way to play them regardless of how your deck ends up. Countering spells is always nice though, and free ones mark the start of a great control deck, so maybe you'll head towards blue and take the force. On the other hand, there's a Spiritmonger over in the corner that is telling you that you shouldn't be so afraid of commitment, because he'd be a perfect fit for a BG rock deck. As you think about the pick, you gaze towards the Enduring Ideal and wonder what kind of enchantments could be in this crazy set. But is it fast enough? Hmm, that Liliana Vess might wheel though, she is quite the combo enabler....Too bad this pick isn't relevant. These cards would never appear in the same pack. Back to figuring out if Mulldrifter or Summon the School is the better pick, right?

    Welcome to cube draft.

    A cube is a large stack of mostly powerful cards selected by their owner from throughout Magic's history. No, really, it's a large stack of cards:


    It's like you have your own set you get to play with. Even though the cards already exist, you build in your own power level, synergies, strengths, and so forth to use them in combinations you would never see otherwise. Makeshift Mannequin a Masticore midcombat to crush the attacking force? Check. Playing the sneakiest Ninja ever by casting an end step Ninja of the Deep Hours off of a Teferi? Check. Having someone smugly cast an Armageddon only to turn their glee to horror as you respond with an instant speed Rout? Check. Cube allows odd synergies to exist by mixing all of these cards together in a fresh environment.

    The most common practice done with a cube is to booster draft it. Each person drafting grabs 45 random cards out of the cube, and randomly put them into 15 card packs. (Some people do smaller packs, but I prefer the norm of 15.) Cube draft has the unpredictability and adaptability skillset of a normal draft, but the power and synergy basis of constructed. It's like drafting a constructed deck. You can draft aggro, control, and even combo. Consider the booster above. You can't really go wrong with most of those cards as first picks, so you can go down the route you want to.

    You can also do pretty much any other draft format with a cube such as, but certainly not limited to, Winston, Rochester, Points, and anything else. In addition, it makes a convenient high-powered stack to play type 4 with in between rounds at an event.

    You may be thinking that cube is inaccessible for you, but you don't need all of these old cards to construct a good cube. The great thing about a cube is that you control its power level. If the cards are just from recent Standard formats, the power level will be fine while still being fun by being a conglomeration of cards from recent years.

    If you are interesting in building your own cube, go read Tom Lapilles Cube FAQ. Most of what I'd tell you would simply just be restating what he said. In a nutshell, you want each color to have the same amount of cards so that there isn't an imbalance, and each color needs to have a few obvious strategies that play to its usual strengths that it can utilize. There is a little more too it, and I recommend reading that bit on Tom's site for more information.

    My cube:

    My cube has 720 cards. This is enough to run two eight man drafts at once. The breakdown is 88 cards per color, 100 lands, 90 colorless cards, and 90 multicolored cards with seven per two color combination and 20 that are a mix of split cards and cards that cost three or more colors. Cards that are one color but in practice often play like multicolor cards like Desolation Angel, Court Hussar, Kird Ape, and more take up slots of their colors, not multicolor slots. It became too subjective to decide what went where. People could use cards in odd ways, so maybe somebody will want Desolation Angelunkicked, or Nightscape Familiar just for a Drudge Skeletons. I felt that it would just work out better if cards were collated based on what their actual mana cost was. Zombie Cutthroat and Gathan Raiders are the only exceptions, because anybody can easily play them. I count them as colorless, so they take up artifact slots.

    There are some cards that will be in the cube eventually, but are not right now. Cryptic Command, Mogg Fanatic, Swords to Plowshares, some of the Lorwyn multicolor legends, and a few other cards I can't think of right now definitely have a spot in the cube, but I don't like using proxies in casual formats except in rare situations, and I don't own any of those cards yet. The same goes for the original dual lands. I only own three and it'd be very imbalanced to just have three in there, but I don't want to use proxies for them.

    My cube is unpowered, and I prefer it that way. Not having them makes games more interactive, lets people play their awesome cards, and feels like a better game of Magic in general. I think that the one Sol Ring is fine because it means that there is a "card above cards" in the cube that you're always looking for and excited to open because it ranks above everything else, a bomb rare of sorts. If you play with power in your cube that's something a lot of people do and I respect that, but I like it to be unpowered.

    There is a high land density because I like having a lot of nonbasic lands. They're good for three main reasons: they fix your mana and let you play the cards you want to, you always draft so many playables that lands give you playables without taking away from deck slots (especially when they mimic spells!), and having more lands makes games more skill intensive as you try and figure out when you should be playing certain lands and their abilities. You have to be careful that the packs don't become too full of lands, but otherwise I think more lands is helpful to game play.

    Finally, yes, there are a few Unhinged cards in the cube. But, it's because they play well, not because they're goofy. I kept anything annoying or dexterity based out. Turbo Slug is basically just a pact of 3/1 haste and Blast feels like it could of just came out of Time Spiral block. Super Secret Tech is neat because it lets you draft a theme nobody else will care about that works well in the cube. I'm sure somebody will eventually first pick it and draft a foil based deck. There are some others, but the only real ridiculously powerful one is Richard Garfield, but I think its strategic and rewards better players. Plus, combining cube and mental magic in the same game is pretty awesome.

    Finally, here are pictures of my cube for a reference on what a cube can look like. If you want to know what a specific card is because it's obscured, please ask. Before anybody asks, the Inkfathom Divers is a Garruk. I lent mine out of the cube because a friend really needed it for an event and I haven't received it back yet.

    Lands:

    Black:


    Green:


    Red:


    White:


    Blue:



    Artifacts:


    Multicolor:


    I would love it if more people got into cube and were interested in building their own. It is a great format to play, and it attracts curious spectators at events in a way I've never seen elsewhere. If you have any questions, I will gladly answer them. This thread is for all things cube related, so you can post your cube, your opinion on cube issues, petition for Shepherd to run a 8 way cube draft, share cube draft stories, ask questions about Cubes, and so on.

    Have fun Cubing! Smile
    ATTACHMENTS
    • IMGP0398
    • IMGP04012222
    • cubecube
    Last edited by Lesurgo: 11/25/2007 4:04:12 AM

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  • #2
    I've never played Cube but it definitely sounds like fun.
    Have you considered organizing an 8-way forum draft in Cube ?

    PS : Spiritmonger would be the pick for me from the first pool, not just because it's bombastic in GB but because it's actually easy to splash for in any deck that uses black or green (particularly green, obv) as main : it's actually not a strong colour commitment. You need only one of the two colours to be main and you don't need to decide too early which one : it's easier to make it get through the cut than a card with a double-mana of the same colour in its cost.

    PPS : If you could shrink these images a tiny bit, they'd fit better on my 15" screen and avoid having to scroll to read the text.
  • #3
    Spiritmonger would be my pick too, mainly because the cube includes nonbasic lands which make splashing for it (if needed) a bit easier.

    petition for Shepherd to run a 8 way cube draft


    Sounds fun. If Shepherd will organize one, I'm definitely looking forward to it.

    By the way, what is the card in between Groundbreaker and Regrowth? I think it's Civic Wayfinder, but I'm not sure.
  • #4
    I'll take the Slaughter please. Smile

    I like your cube, but if I was going to make a cube it would be more towards the quirky end of things and avoiding one-card-win bombs like Debtors' Knell.
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  • #5
    I'm very interested in Cube Drafting.

    **Runs off to PM this thread to Shepherd**

    I think that I would take the SDT from above and see what tables.
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  • #6
    Yeah, I was very intrigued by the format after rreading up on it during Invitational coverage. It would be so much fun to draft that. Getting bombtastic 1st pick cards 15th pick is always fun. Signaling seems to be not based on color, but by generic draft archtype of Aggro/Control/Combo.

    I wouldn't mind an 8-way Forum Cube Draft. I don't want Sheperd to think we're taking his services for granted, though. I wouldn't want him to spend too much time on an irrelevant format. At the same time though, when has an online Cube draft ever been done efficiently? It'd be groundbreaking.

    To be nitcpicky: I think the best Green card in your pile is the bombalicious Inkfathom Divers. Islandwalk FTW.

    As for the first pick of that sample pack.....geez. I can't even pretend to know anything to make a sound pick. Any card would have a good basis. I'll have to agree, though, that Spiritmonger is a good pick being a nice piece of fat. Multicolredness is almost irrelevant with 10 pains/shocks/duals/signets/karoo for 50 straight up multicolored enablers, plus other non basics and green fixers make splashing or a 3 color deck not all too difficult.
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  • #7
    With all the petitions, it sounds like a reasonable request. It will have to come somewhere in the middle of 2008, though; I'll be pretty busy for the first half of the year, and I will need some time to learn how the format works...

    Actually, Lesurgo mentioned this when we were discussing the 'aftermath' of the Core Set 8-Way... One thing's for sure, if we can get this one working very well, this will definitely replace all instances of Core Set 8-Ways (at least until 20th Edition)...

    In the meantime, I'll really be checking up on this thread to learn more...
    The MTGS Cube 2008
    Link to current contents of Cube here.

    SSC 8-Way Forum Draft
    Current Pick:
    1-6
    Link to team assignments here.

    SSC Forum Draft
    Current Pick: 2-5
    Link to pick here.
  • #8
    I love cube drafts! We do it at club pretty much once a week, if not more, and multiple people would bring their cubes. I have played from a cube fully decked out with power and every broken card there is in Magic, to my cube, which has some nice stuff, but is still lacking money-wise. I would love to cube with Lesurgo's collection, it seems very nicely planned out. So I have no qualms if we were to do a forum cube draft. Middle of 2008 might even be better for my schedule (no exams yet).

    Not knowing what's in Lesurgo's cube ahead of time, I might be tempted to go the "hoard colour fixing first pack and play bombs from pack 2 and 3" plan. Therefore, I would take the Birds, and then table the Ingot, netting 2 colour fixers from my starting pack.

    Though if I weren't going with that strategy, I'd take Slaughter here, with a nod at Force of Will (trying to cut blue). Considering Black or Blue are usually very strong colours in cubes (compare the number of "broken" cards/combos that are blue/black to green/white), and I would rather put myself in blue/black then green or white.

    P.S. I have 1 suggestion to make: If you are already using un-cards, like that Richard Garfield, then the best un-card to add to a cube would be Booster Tutor. You would happily make yourself some boosters from the unused cards and tutor for a random card that could completely swing the game around, or pull an unlikely combo out of nowhere.
    Last edited by Apex: 11/25/2007 11:16:58 AM

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  • #9
    Possible to get someone other than Shephard running it if he is not available until the middle of 2008?

    On a side note, I am thinking about making a cube of my own, but the expense of acquiring the land base and things I don't already have like Jitte, morphling, sword of fire & ice, pernicious deed is a little daunting.
    Last edited by FlamingCloud: 11/25/2007 11:21:08 AM
  • #10
    When I was at the PTQ yesterday, I found someone who brought a small cube, complete with power and lorwyn cards. He used paper proxies over lands or commons, and I did a small draft with him before getting started. I would love to draft in a cube, and I'm thinking about making my own proxy cube...


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  • #11
    Ya I thought of copying Evan Erwin's power cube card for card, but I don't want it to be more then like.. 15-25 proxy. I have no problem putting the power I have in and proxying mana drain, library of Alexandria, etc but I would be pretty pissed off with proxy deed, tiaga and jitte.
  • #12
    I might be prepared to run an 8-way Cube Draft on the condition that I get to design the contents of the cube. Smile
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  • #13
    Quote from Charm_Master3125
    When I was at the PTQ yesterday, I found someone who brought a small cube, complete with power and lorwyn cards. He used paper proxies over lands or commons, and I did a small draft with him before getting started. I would love to draft in a cube, and I'm thinking about making my own proxy cube...


    Agreed. I would totally design a proxy-based Cube, because...well, I'm not that rich, and I'm mostly a Standard kind of guy. Also, proxies mean a one-time cost of lands (as cards), ink (for the printer), and sleeves (probably the ones you don't use anymore).

    Quote from bateleur »
    I might be prepared to run an 8-way Cube Draft on the condition that I get to design the contents of the cube. Smile


    I would agree. Cube drafting sounds quite fun, though I'd need to be schooled properly to do it right.
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  • #14
    Quote from Demoyon

    By the way, what is the card in between Groundbreaker and Regrowth? I think it's Civic Wayfinder, but I'm not sure.


    Yep, It's a russian Wayfinder.

    Quote from bateleur
    I'll take the Slaughter please. Smile

    I like your cube, but if I was going to make a cube it would be more towards the quirky end of things and avoiding one-card-win bombs like Debtors' Knell.


    I think you'd be surprised. Knell is good, but seven mana is a lot in this format for a card that doesn't do anything immediately. Also, it's not like creatures die all the time in cube. I mean, they do because there's a lot of removal, but if you're playing against combo or counter heavy control, it's probably not good enough. Plus, there are answers built into the cube for it. That's not to say that certain cards can't win on their own though. Knell is certainly a card you can take and build around!

    Quote from Apex

    P.S. I have 1 suggestion to make: If you are already using un-cards, like that Richard Garfield, then the best un-card to add to a cube would be Booster Tutor. You would happily make yourself some boosters from the unused cards and tutor for a random card that could completely swing the game around, or pull an unlikely combo out of nowhere.


    Ooh, clever. I didn't think about using it that way, kind of like a random wish.

    Quote from FlamingCloud

    On a side note, I am thinking about making a cube of my own, but the expense of acquiring the land base and things I don't already have like Jitte, morphling, sword of fire & ice, pernicious deed is a little daunting.


    Well, you can either use more recent sets or, alternatively, use proxies.

    Quote from bateleur
    I might be prepared to run an 8-way Cube Draft on the condition that I get to design the contents of the cube. Smile


    Exciting!

    Out of that booster, I would actually take the Enduring Ideal. I'm a sucker for combo decks in cube and I'm afraid it won't wheel. You just gotta believe the enchantments will come. Smile

    In cube, all of the cards are so powerful that I try and find ways to make my cards synergistic or have one card break the game. Of course, this leaves you woefully open to walls of counters in control decks.

    It's possible I'm biased because in the last deck I had with that card I cast it and found Form of the Dragon on turn 2! EEK!

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  • #15
    Could use proxies but there is something about having 25% proxies that makes me cringe. I think I would be more willing to wreck my lorwyn traders to acquire the needed stuff.
  • #16
    Quote from bateleur
    I might be prepared to run an 8-way Cube Draft on the condition that I get to design the contents of the cube. Smile


    I'm sure you can design a funky cube :p
    I would love it if you did something like this.
    You'll bend to my will- with or without your precious sanity.

  • #17
    Quote from Apex
    P.S. I have 1 suggestion to make: If you are already using un-cards, like that Richard Garfield, then the best un-card to add to a cube would be Booster Tutor. You would happily make yourself some boosters from the unused cards and tutor for a random card that could completely swing the game around, or pull an unlikely combo out of nowhere.

    You should just make somebody crack an actual booster for this. It'd be totally worth playing. I want to build a cube right now, just to put this in.
  • #18
    Booster Tutor for an actual sealed booster would probably result in getting an poor card considering what cards are playable in cube. Booster Tutor for a cube booster, on the other hand....

    While some cards are cool, people won't play them. Keep in mind that in a cube draft, 35 or more of your drafted cards are probably going to be playable. If I can't see somebody playing with a card, I don't include it. I've has to cut numerous cards that are cool because of the playability factor. Booster Tutor for a real booster would seldom make the cut as normal because it's too random of an effect. Booster Tutor for a cube booster would probably see play some of the time.

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  • #19
    My friend has a Cube that he made recently. I'll see if he'd be willing to post it up, but I'll show him to the thread. On the other hand, here's some plays I've done in Cube I've liked:

    Turn 1:
    Me - Land, go
    Him - Land, go

    Turn 2:
    Me - Land, Wall of Roots
    Him - Land, go

    Turn 3:
    Me - Land, Vindicate a land
    Him - Land, go

    Turn 4:
    Me - Land, Plow Under his two lands
    Him - Land, cry, go

    - - - - - - -
    Turn 1:
    Me - Land, Sensei's Divining Top
    Him - Land, Ponder, go

    Turn 2:
    Me - Land, Wall of Roots
    Him - Land, go

    Turn 3:
    Me - Land, Tangle Wire, he plays Impulse in response, it's good
    Him - Taps all land, land, go

    Turn 4:
    Me - Land, Future Sight, revealing a land, play land, revealing Confiscate
    Him - Still tapped down, go

    Turn 5:
    Me - Land, chuckle at my board position as he scoops.
    - - - - -
    Turn 1:
    Me - Land, Llanowar Elves
    Him - Land

    Turn 2:
    Me - Land, Army Ants
    Him - Land

    Turn 3:
    Me - Land, some one-drop, kill lands
    Him - Never gets past 2 lands and eventually plays a Chrome Mox which gets eaten by Viridian Shaman.
  • #20
    Some of my highlighted recent plays are turn two Enduring Ideal, turn two Plow Under, and casting a Savage Twister to kill two Platinum Angels. Another quite fun recent memory was drafting a combo deck with almost everything it could need: except for a way to win. Early Harvest, Liliana Vess, Unfufilled Desires, Time Spiral, Time Stretch, Regrowth, Heartbeat of Spring, Rites of Flourishing, mana acceleration..... But the only way it had to kill was an Illuminate which requires that they have creatures in play. The deck worked for the first game, but once how I won spread amongst the players, nobody ever cast a creature unless it had a sacrifice ability.

    Definitely get your friend to post up his cube if you can. Smile

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  • #21
    Quote from bateleur
    I might be prepared to run an 8-way Cube Draft on the condition that I get to design the contents of the cube. Smile


    Excellent! I'll be glad to support you in any way needed (except purchasing actual cards... Smile )... I can somehow foresee a Limited Forum Draft admin team that rotates between each regular or 8-Way Draft, but that is another topic in itself...
    The MTGS Cube 2008
    Link to current contents of Cube here.

    SSC 8-Way Forum Draft
    Current Pick:
    1-6
    Link to team assignments here.

    SSC Forum Draft
    Current Pick: 2-5
    Link to pick here.
  • #22
    My favourite play from my cube is this:

    Cast Animate Dead on Karmic Guide, Karmic Guide comes into play (then there is that whole timing thing with Karmic Guide, reanimation, and protection from black), animating Kikki-Jikki, Kikki-Jikki copies Karmic Guide, and I respond with Nantuko Husk's ability to pull of the Flash combo, and hoard of angry flying spirits attacks my opponent. Grin

    Also, you get to play against the most ridiculous decks. The most ridiculous plays I've seen comes from the powered cubes: Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Black Lotus, pop it to Tinker for Darksteel Colossus, sacrificing the Vault of Whispers. Or, another personal favourite: Ancient Tomb, Sol Ring, Signet, Talisman. 2nd turn, land, Mind Twist for 6, stripping your opponent's hand.

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  • #23
    I started playing magic at Time Spiral, so I have limited knowledge of older cards, but the Cube sounds like tons of fun. Other than proxying 85% of the cube, I have no way to build one, so it would be really awesome if we could get something going online here. I'd be more than willing to help get something set up (except for actually building a cube).
  • #24
    I don't have time to take pictures of all of these, but we can play an "draft lite" with my cube. I'll grab 8 packs worth of cards, and post which cards get to you, emptying the boosters of good cards based on the archetypes that the other "people" are drafting for the first eight picks. (After that, it depends on what was picked, so it doesn't work.) It's certainly not equivalent to a real draft, but hopefully it at least generates a few minutes of fun and gives you a taste of what it is like to play cube.

    I don't have time to take pictures, but I can type them up. Sorry for the lack of capital letters in advance. Here we go!









    Post what you would pick and if you would like to see more of this. Smile

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  • #25
    P1P1: Disk over everything else, nod to Rout and Merchant Scroll (it tutors for blue instants. Those are usually the broken ones).

    P1P2: Ooo...hard pick for me, though I'd like to take Death Cloud over Barter, I don't like the triple B costs. Then again this is cube, and from the glimpse of your photos, I see quite alot of mana fixing, so I'm gonna go ahead and take the Death Cloud.

    P1P3: LftL. It's basically an engine with just a few cycling lands (though I don't know if you have them or not, at worst it returns manlands and fetches, and I know you are going to have manlands and fetches, lol, almost all of the cubes do), and gives green a draw source other than the draw step. It also kinda works with Death Cloud. I rate it about the same as a Sylvan Library. And as much as I like Hammer, I like an engine better.

    P1P4: I think I can table the cycling land, so therefore, I'll pick up the colourless manland here. Stalking Stone for me.

    P1P5: Wooded Foothill. Not only does it colour fixes, it works well with LftL. Personally I rate colour fixing quite high in most cubes, as it allows you to get greedy and play a 5C Green type of strategy and have the best of every colour.

    P1P6: Twisted Abomination, it swampcycles, and it beats. Its also on colour.

    P1P7: I gleefully take the 7th pick Genesis. Its going to do wonders for my deck. Though there is also an Arc-Slogger, which, added to the Shrapnel Blast that was just past, could indicate that red is a bit underdrafted.

    P1P8: Hmm..STE or Tusker? Since I'm going to get neither back, I opted for the STE as a early game blocker and mana acceleration/fixer into our Deathcloud. Maybe we can even table that Moment's Peace from pick 3 for some more early game assurances.

    After that, I assume I'll table some cycling lands, maybe a green creature or 2 (since we did see a late Genesis), and the rest will be dedicated to colour fixing. Grabbing every single bounceland, signet, fetch, and talisman that I can. Now I have a core of a B/G rock style deck that can abuse LftL and Genesis, and has a Disk/Death Cloud for mass removal.
    Last edited by Apex: 11/26/2007 11:40:02 AM

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