This sort of came up in another thread that I started, but I thought it deserved its own thread. What do you guys think about using proxies in cube? I have personally not chosen to include them in my cube for the following reasons 1. My friends and I used to play proxy decks all the time, but we quickly became disillusioned with it and dropped magic altogether for a year because we just got bored with magic after using them. I would guess this would be caused by a variety of reasons including: 2. When/If I actually get the cards I alter my cube keeping my cube ever evolving and always new and interesting. 3. I'm forced to try more cards then someone with all the really expensive cards ever. Even though they seem subpar on paper I've found cards like Flash and Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile to be amazing in cube, whereas a lot of people don't agree with me,I feel like my cube has been bettered by having to run cards that aren't normal. 4. The Collector's excitement when you actually get that card. When I go around all my LGS and none have recurring nightmare it stinks, but when it finally comes in stock and i buy it, or I finish saving for Force of will or Find a Mana Drain at a garage sale, and put it in the cube I'm freaking ecstatic for my next 3 cube drafts. 5. Any reasons that i forgot if anyone agrees with me
II. However, I would never fault anyone who did Proxy, and would still enjoy proxy cube drafts, because: 1. Proxies let you play the best cube possible. Without the cost constraint mana drain and Jace, The mind Sculptor can go in every cube and make them all more powerful. 2. Allow the cube to be balanced more easily, If i have the two previously mentioned cards, but my best red card is shock My cube might be better if I included good red proxies. 3. Variety= You can completely change your entire cube in as much time as it takes to print proxies.
I'm gonna update this and steal your ideas to keep this a kind of new players' guide, as when i first began my cube the way I "learned how" was from checking the rumor mill -> seeing cube forum -> wondering what cube was-> Looking at wtwlf123 and eidolon232's cubes-> making my own, and I think all new cube creators are face with this decision.
I use them for cards that are grossly, annoyingly inflated by the other formats (clique, berserk), or ones I'm concerned about losing (dual lands). I usually try to acquire the expensive cards I have proxied through lgs store credit, but this is generally because the subtle difference in dpi between my proxies and real cards niggles me over time. If I had easy access to a printer that could produce indistinguishable dpi proxies, I'd likely replace a lot of my real cards with art or flavor text I like better!
Make sure that your proxies don't look terrible and they're definitely fine. I'd much rather prefer to have the optimal cube environment unfettered by financial constraints (and it can help to make cuts more objective; people can be less willing to cut a $100+ card if they got it solely for cubing.)
Make sure that your proxies don't look terrible and they're definitely fine. I'd much rather prefer to have the optimal cube environment unfettered by financial constraints (and it can help to make cuts more objective; people can be less willing to cut a $100+ card if they got it solely for cubing.)
I've found that to be true for sure. Cutting that hard to find Promo or $$$ card is a lot harder than cutting some random $2 card or proxy even if the rare/expensive card isn't good enough and the $2 one is.
This is why I rely on data, testing, and gradual changes and re-changes as opposed to emotional stuff like 'xyz doesn't feel cube worthy'.
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I write about cube and run cube drafts on magic online.
It is up to the person. I run proxies of only cards I can't afford (usually about 40, mostly ABU lands, p9, p3k) or if I am play testing a card to see if it worthwhile. If the card is a reasonable price I will pick it up (say $20 or less) and only have about 5 cards that are outside of that amount to pick up. I do use proxies because I don't want to limit my card choices.
Would you start a thread about the benefits of pirating video games in a gaming forum?
Honestly? Yes, Yes I would. If it was a good enough game to warrant playing. I don't care about the game companies and would rather have a larger playerbase. Just like I would run proxies if random people off the street would come running up to my house, pound on the door, and demand to cube with proxies. More players are always a good thing, by my view as a player.
Cubing is about having fun for me. I'm not going to let my financial situation stop me from having fun. The way I see it, my proxies have increased the demand for magic cards since without them I wouldn't keep playing, buying the cards I can afford.
My real cube? was down to 2 lremaining, Imperial Seal and Ravages of War, now have a few, maybe 3, RtR proxies now since its still a new set. would like to replace them sometime when life ($) allows it.
As for playing in public, I keep a proxy copy of my cube thats the same 405/405 cards, the commons and UC's are real, all the rares are proxies since I want to cube with new people but I don't want a Moat, Goyf, or Foil Promos walking off, this makes it easy.
I have a 360 card peasant cube and I proxied the 5 guildgates to be released in gatecrash because I wanted another solid cycle of lands that included the enemy colored pairs. I fully intend to get them the day they become available at my lgs.
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Casual Cube EDH: UR Niv-Mizzet's Madness BGW Ghave's Garden WUBRG Karona's Chaos
Retired: Too damn many to count Vintage: URWelder WUBRG Dredge Kitchen Table: B Zombies in Your Head
I have a 360 card peasant cube and I proxied the 5 guildgates to be released in gatecrash because I wanted another solid cycle of lands that included the enemy colored pairs. I fully intend to get them the day they become available at my lgs.
I did the same thing, I'm currently using painlands as proxies.
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I'm afraid not everyone can spend thousands of dollars to have their cards look slightly better. I'd rather pay the $10 to have them printed and make them myself.
I honestly don't care whether you proxy your cube or have it fully pimped. I personally like to have physical copies of all the cards, but I don't fault anyone for printing them out. Hell, I pretty much have proxied versions of new sets for at least a month or so until I can track everything down.
The only thing that frustrates me in cubes that allow proxies is alternate art. I get that it's often a way to introduce neat, artistic renderings of cards, but the novelty doesn't outweigh the negatives. I miss picks I wouldn't ever otherwise miss, and it just doesn't feel as cohesive. Not a deal-breaker, but an annoyance.
Edit: I should note that I mean 'excessive' alternate art. 5-10% of a cube is totally fine in my book, but every other card having alternate art is a nightmare.
I think not using proxies adds more excitement to actually making your cube and finding alternatives. You look for similar power to a jace in other cards you would probably never have considered if you didn't proxy Jace and might find more interesting combos that way. I'd stick to thinking outside the box.
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I use 19 CE cards in my cube (P9 and 10 duals). I own duals I could use but the CE ones look nicer. Since I'm already using CE ones for the P9 I thought I'd use them for the duals as well. Even if I did pick up the 9 I'd still stick with the CE versions. The justification i use to help me sleep at night is WotC employees are allowed to play in non-sanctioned events that use CE cards as they are printed by WotC. My Peasant cube has 3 proxied gates which don't exist yet. They will be gone as soon as gatecrash is released
I understand the real concern with bringing a cube full of the best cards ever to a public place and having it stolen. It would be so easy for someone to just pocket a Jace or a 'goyf. The thought makes me very nervous. I don't do it for that reason. I prefer to play with people I know and use real cards. Why real cards?
1. The collectible nature of the game has a certain addictive quality. I've always been a collector, and while I don't "pimp", I do like to collect the real cards. Others have mentioned it - the feeling you get when you finally obtain the thing that you are after. (Quickly to be replaced by the quest for the next thing. ;)).
2. I feel a moral obligation to use real cards. I also don't pirate music, movies or software. Before you get upset, I'm not judging you; it's just something that I feel compelled to do. I'm Azorius, after all. (That, and I make software for a living so the threat of piracy goes directly to my living.)
3. Once you have a basic cube in place with a lot of good cards, then it doesn't much matter for enjoyment purposes if you're missing a card here or there. When it does matter, then that sets the priority for cards you want to get next. This is what happened with me and Ravages of War - I really did want a second Armageddon effect in the cube for W/X aggro decks and Ravages is obviously the best one. But I don't play power because for now I don't feel it's necessary and honestly, I just can't justify the cost. We all have to draw the line somewhere - my dual lands are from Revised as well: sue me.
It's interesting - Usman mentioned being more purely objective with cube selections if you use proxies. I love cube design, but for me, the entire enjoyment of it would be gone if I had pure objectivity but used fake cards. It would be like being a Ferrari enthusiast and getting all of my parts from Canadian Tire (or insert your local auto parts chain here). It would definitely be cheaper, but it wouldn't actually be the same thing.
I do understand budget constraints as well - I was a student once too. I guess according to my ethos, this is the time in life where you have to choose hobbies that aren't expensive. Using my example above, not the best time to become a Ferrari enthusiast. I also recall drinking cheap beer and reading library books. But there are Pauper and Peasant cubes, among other things, to satiate the cube itch on a budget. I actually really enjoy these environments. Even now, when I work for a living, it's been a major commitment over time to collect the cards for my cube and I've chosen unpowered and no pimp. I also don't chase formats like Standard because they pull funds. It's all about choices, I guess.
That's just my view on it, and honestly, like eidolon, #2 is pretty big for me.
I have a 540 peasant cube. Due to the relative accessibility and low cost of the cards compared to normal cubes, I decided to never proxy anything in this cube. I've chosen to exclude most of the really expensive uncommons from the past due to power concerns anyway (Mana Drain, Library of Alexandria, etc.).
But we proxy lots of stuff in my friend's powered 450.
a majority of my Cube is proxied, but I'm looking to fill it up and pimp where possible as time goes by. Just recently secured judge promos SoFI and SoLS, and a few more foils are coming in soon
It's a process, and I get giddy whenever I can replace a proxy with a real one. It really feels like a journey
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1. My friends and I used to play proxy decks all the time, but we quickly became disillusioned with it and dropped magic altogether for a year because we just got bored with magic after using them. I would guess this would be caused by a variety of reasons including:
2. When/If I actually get the cards I alter my cube keeping my cube ever evolving and always new and interesting.
3. I'm forced to try more cards then someone with all the really expensive cards ever. Even though they seem subpar on paper I've found cards like Flash and Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile to be amazing in cube, whereas a lot of people don't agree with me,I feel like my cube has been bettered by having to run cards that aren't normal.
4. The Collector's excitement when you actually get that card. When I go around all my LGS and none have recurring nightmare it stinks, but when it finally comes in stock and i buy it, or I finish saving for Force of will or Find a Mana Drain at a garage sale, and put it in the cube I'm freaking ecstatic for my next 3 cube drafts.
5. Any reasons that i forgot if anyone agrees with me
II. However, I would never fault anyone who did Proxy, and would still enjoy proxy cube drafts, because:
1. Proxies let you play the best cube possible. Without the cost constraint mana drain and Jace, The mind Sculptor can go in every cube and make them all more powerful.
2. Allow the cube to be balanced more easily, If i have the two previously mentioned cards, but my best red card is shock My cube might be better if I included good red proxies.
3. Variety= You can completely change your entire cube in as much time as it takes to print proxies.
I'm gonna update this and steal your ideas to keep this a kind of new players' guide, as when i first began my cube the way I "learned how" was from checking the rumor mill -> seeing cube forum -> wondering what cube was-> Looking at wtwlf123 and eidolon232's cubes-> making my own, and I think all new cube creators are face with this decision.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
My 360 Commons Cube
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"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
If I brought my cube around to random SCG events/PTQs/GPs all the time I would run full proxy... probably. Don't want my stuff stolen.
peasantcube.blogspot.com
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
I've found that to be true for sure. Cutting that hard to find Promo or $$$ card is a lot harder than cutting some random $2 card or proxy even if the rare/expensive card isn't good enough and the $2 one is.
This is why I rely on data, testing, and gradual changes and re-changes as opposed to emotional stuff like 'xyz doesn't feel cube worthy'.
peasantcube.blogspot.com
Honestly? Yes, Yes I would. If it was a good enough game to warrant playing. I don't care about the game companies and would rather have a larger playerbase. Just like I would run proxies if random people off the street would come running up to my house, pound on the door, and demand to cube with proxies. More players are always a good thing, by my view as a player.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
If I played in public areas, there is no way I wouldn't use proxies.
Thread | Draft
Good point, I missed saying that!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
As for playing in public, I keep a proxy copy of my cube thats the same 405/405 cards, the commons and UC's are real, all the rares are proxies since I want to cube with new people but I don't want a Moat, Goyf, or Foil Promos walking off, this makes it easy.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=221863
The first page of my Cube list also includes my cube workbook for excel, feel free to look at and use it if you would like to.
EDH:
UR Niv-Mizzet's Madness
BGW Ghave's Garden
WUBRG Karona's Chaos
Retired: Too damn many to count
Vintage:
URWelder
WUBRG Dredge
Kitchen Table:
B Zombies in Your Head
I did the same thing, I'm currently using painlands as proxies.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The only thing that frustrates me in cubes that allow proxies is alternate art. I get that it's often a way to introduce neat, artistic renderings of cards, but the novelty doesn't outweigh the negatives. I miss picks I wouldn't ever otherwise miss, and it just doesn't feel as cohesive. Not a deal-breaker, but an annoyance.
Edit: I should note that I mean 'excessive' alternate art. 5-10% of a cube is totally fine in my book, but every other card having alternate art is a nightmare.
Joy of Cubing Podcast
My 600 Card Unpowered Cube
My Combo Cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Basically this means all my Cradles and most of my duals are spoken for, and so there are 11 proxies in my cube.
(in construction)
http://mtgpalace.site90.net/1_2_MTG-Standard-Singles-sell-list.html
My Cube Articles: Also in construction
The justification i use to help me sleep at night is WotC employees are allowed to play in non-sanctioned events that use CE cards as they are printed by WotC.
My Peasant cube has 3 proxied gates which don't exist yet. They will be gone as soon as gatecrash is released
1. The collectible nature of the game has a certain addictive quality. I've always been a collector, and while I don't "pimp", I do like to collect the real cards. Others have mentioned it - the feeling you get when you finally obtain the thing that you are after. (Quickly to be replaced by the quest for the next thing. ;)).
2. I feel a moral obligation to use real cards. I also don't pirate music, movies or software. Before you get upset, I'm not judging you; it's just something that I feel compelled to do. I'm Azorius, after all. (That, and I make software for a living so the threat of piracy goes directly to my living.)
3. Once you have a basic cube in place with a lot of good cards, then it doesn't much matter for enjoyment purposes if you're missing a card here or there. When it does matter, then that sets the priority for cards you want to get next. This is what happened with me and Ravages of War - I really did want a second Armageddon effect in the cube for W/X aggro decks and Ravages is obviously the best one. But I don't play power because for now I don't feel it's necessary and honestly, I just can't justify the cost. We all have to draw the line somewhere - my dual lands are from Revised as well: sue me.
It's interesting - Usman mentioned being more purely objective with cube selections if you use proxies. I love cube design, but for me, the entire enjoyment of it would be gone if I had pure objectivity but used fake cards. It would be like being a Ferrari enthusiast and getting all of my parts from Canadian Tire (or insert your local auto parts chain here). It would definitely be cheaper, but it wouldn't actually be the same thing.
I do understand budget constraints as well - I was a student once too. I guess according to my ethos, this is the time in life where you have to choose hobbies that aren't expensive. Using my example above, not the best time to become a Ferrari enthusiast. I also recall drinking cheap beer and reading library books. But there are Pauper and Peasant cubes, among other things, to satiate the cube itch on a budget. I actually really enjoy these environments. Even now, when I work for a living, it's been a major commitment over time to collect the cards for my cube and I've chosen unpowered and no pimp. I also don't chase formats like Standard because they pull funds. It's all about choices, I guess.
That's just my view on it, and honestly, like eidolon, #2 is pretty big for me.
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But we proxy lots of stuff in my friend's powered 450.
My Type 4 stack (Cube Tutor link)
It's a process, and I get giddy whenever I can replace a proxy with a real one. It really feels like a journey