I'm starting my first cube with friends (when I have more time, I'll post it in the subforum). We understand it will evolve and be a constant project; that's half of the fun, in our view. To that end, we're going to try to keep track of the under-performers. I think that means "cards not maindecked." Given enough drafts, if a card isn't maindecked enough, we'll discuss it and decide whether it should be replaced with something else (probably with a card needed to bolster an under-performing archetype).
Is that how you decide when to cut a card? When is a card a under-performer in its particular cube -- not maindecked after 5 drafts? 10? Maindecked twice but hated by the players? Before we start keeping track, we'd like to hear whether other approach replacement the same way. There's probably not a precise scientific method for determining when a card should be cut, but then again, I've seen some pretty awesome statistics in threads here.
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For me, I update the cube whenever I have acquired good number of potentials. I have a spreadsheet, so aside from reviewing curves, I also highlight cards I have not seen being played or we think is too weak.
When my cube first started, I did exactly what you are talking about - keeping track of cards left in the sideboard.
For me, I had to abandon this practice because it was too time-consuming. It also requires lots of attention (Disenchant is a typical sideboard card, but you wouldn't cut it... also, maybe someone hate drafted Jace, the Mind Sculptor 3 drafts in a row...)
What I do NOW is value based on performance rather than statistics:
-Become aware of the cards you need to keep an eye on. About 3/4 of the cards in my cube don't need watching... they're there to stay. It's the other 1/4 that I look at.
-Talk to your group after each cube session and ask them which cards underperformed, which were better than expected, etc...
-Note the players who are playing the cards you're keeping an eye on... maybe the card wasn't good for them because they didn't have it in the right deck.
It's up to you whether to ban cards because the players hate them. Personally, I ban cards that are unfun. Since I also have a legacy-legal cube, the only card I had to ban was Jace, Memory Adept because he can take an awesome game and ruin it. However, some of my players hate LD, and I keep a solid LD package in because it's a critical part of magic.
I think this is a horrible idea. You don't get any meaningful information about its powerlevel out of the fact that a card doesn't see play in your group. It is only an indicator about its popularity and to some extend the narrowness of a particular effect.
If you want some reliable data on the power level of a card, you should track the game win percentage of the decks that are playing a card in addition to the total number of games where the card was maindecked.
When you are talking about a small playgroup, it would also make sense to track these results per player.
I take your point: in a small group, different players have different habits, and the fact that one card hasn't made it into many decks isn't necessarily a comment on its appropriateness for the cube. On the other hand, in a small group (mine, at least), play skill varies tremendously. Two of our players haven't played Magic in at least 5 years, but are intrigued by cubing enough to return for that purpose. I was hopeful that the post-game talks about the drafts, decks, etc. would help even things out. For instance, if Player A says that one card was lackluster, the rest of us could talk through it. Perhaps over time, as skill levels adjust, main-deckability would be useful shorthand.
For now at least, I may have different goal than you (and I may have failed to provide enough info in my opening post, assuming that it didn't affect the decision whether to keep or cut a card). We're constraining our cube to certain sets at the outset, and overall power level doesn't matter as much as developing a "balanced" limited environment ("balanced" in the sense that several archetypes are supported and can compete with each other). With that in mind, we're all expecting some duds in the first iteration of the cube, to be ironed out through playing.
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The idea would be to have a document like this to keep track of the performance:
I get it. What do you think: should each player maintain his own master spreadsheet, or should there be one for the entire group (with each player taking up a portion, like on your template)? The first option seems easier to administer, but would keep the information from being viewed by all.
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I would keep track of how they perform when they are played. That's much more important than their maindeck percentage. Some cards are more narrow, and will see less play. That doesn't make them any less important for the cube.
I just keep an eye on new additions. Most of the older cards have already been around long enough to be tried and true. If your cube is entirely new, then just pay attention and listen to the feedback of your group. IMO, there's no need to do all the extra legwork that it takes to keep track of main deck percentages. Your group will tell you which cards are under performing and which cards they don't care for. They'll also rave about the all stars.
To me it means that these cards are of no interest for the playgroup, and should thus probably be cut from the Cube. Which gives you a clear information as to when to replace a card.
...or it may mean the playgroup doesn't understand how the card works.
Smokestack and Upheaval are 2 cards that should be in every cube, but sat in sideboards for a while in our playgroup because we didn't understand how to break them. Once we figured it out, they're in a deck every draft now.
Maybe not for pauper cubes or tribal cubes, but for general cubes that want to use the best cards in magic history, cards like Llanowar Elves and Lightning Bolt should be in every cube.
Upheaval and Smokestack might be pushing it a little, but I was just trying to point out that cards that sit in a sideboard may not be inherently bad, but that the playgroup might just need to try them.
Yes of course some less experienced or skilled playgroups may reject a card without really understanding them. My point was, when you play with a group that understands Magic well, building a Cube based on personal affinities is more efficient than based on pure power level.
That makes sense. When I built my first incarnation of my cube, almost every card was one that I had an affinity for.
If you restrict yourself to cubing / the most recent data, and compare wtwlf123's Avacyn Restored Top20 with the actual popularity of the cards, you can see a total difference of 109 points.
I think I sympathize with both Toad's and Eidolon's views. Power level is a concern, and I had figured that such information would be easily found online, like in this forum. The threads here (to my eyes) to a bang-up job debating power level; plus, the statistics available provide a rough approximation of what other people think about power level. The one type of information I cannot get online is playgroup preference, though. That seems like the natural place to start keeping data, then -- win percentage, maindeck percentage, last-drafted percentage should cover the field. That said, I can see the utility of that information dwindling if our cube group expands or fluctuates.
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Replace cards when they get tiresome to play with/against. Good examples are the swords of x and y.
Bit of advice... do not replace Sword of X and Y unless both of these criteria are met: 1.) They print more Swords of X and Y for allied colors and 2.) your list is less than 360 cards. For now basically every cube should be running all five, IMO.
I've yet to see a card that is tiresome to play with/against in the cube. I love all these cards because they're fun and powerful. Cut cards because they aren't performing or because a better version is printed.
Replace cards when they get tiresome to play with/against. Good examples are the swords of x and y.
If Swords of X and Y are getting tiresome to play against, it's probably because there's not enough artifact destruction in the cube. If they're getting tiresome of playing with (*beeep* *booop* #!@#DOES NOT COMPUTE@##$), then don't pick them/don't put them in your deck.
I'm coming up to my first update to mine so I have yet to have settled into a near untouchable list. If I do I could envision wanting to change a few cards occasionally. I'm still in staple chasing mode though, and probably will be for some time to come lol!
No matter what you do, if you are drafting a cube, there always be a card that is the last pick in every pack--so how is it a meaningful indicator for inclusion of a card?
I don't think a card going 15th in a pack has any indication of its merit in the cube unless you see that card going last repeatedly. There are times that I've seen something like Tooth and Nail or Carnophage go 15th, but that's just because those decks didn't get built during that draft. The better thing to look out for is seeing Carnophage go 15th multiple times in a row. Maybe that means your group isn't a fan of black aggressive decks. Maybe that means you're not running enough support for that deck. The same for archetype enablers like Tooth and Nail or Natural Order. If those cards are going 15th often, then you need to think about your support for the deck and your group's desire to play that deck. On the same note if you see black aggro decks all the time, but you're running something like Vault Skirge to support it and that card is going last over and over, then maybe that's not a great card or at least maybe that card isn't needed as much as you thought.
how is it a meaningful indicator for inclusion of a card?
It's not. Sometimes cards go last. Oh well. It doesn't matter how they're picked, it matters how they play when they are picked. If a card never gets played, that's a different indicator than being last picked.
Is that how you decide when to cut a card? When is a card a under-performer in its particular cube -- not maindecked after 5 drafts? 10? Maindecked twice but hated by the players? Before we start keeping track, we'd like to hear whether other approach replacement the same way. There's probably not a precise scientific method for determining when a card should be cut, but then again, I've seen some pretty awesome statistics in threads here.
- My Full Mirrodin Cube (draft it here)
- My One-Drop Cube (draft it here)
MCC Winner Nov ‘14 & Nov ‘15
For example, I just cut Weatherseed Treefolk, Whirling Dervish, and Sulfur Elemental for Beast Within, Ulvenwald Tracker, and Hero of Oxid Ridge. Those that I cut never really saw play, but they are good cards. You'd think Sulfur Elemental would be the same as Wolfir Avenger, but the Avenger has been performing and playing much better.
For me, I had to abandon this practice because it was too time-consuming. It also requires lots of attention (Disenchant is a typical sideboard card, but you wouldn't cut it... also, maybe someone hate drafted Jace, the Mind Sculptor 3 drafts in a row...)
What I do NOW is value based on performance rather than statistics:
-Become aware of the cards you need to keep an eye on. About 3/4 of the cards in my cube don't need watching... they're there to stay. It's the other 1/4 that I look at.
-Talk to your group after each cube session and ask them which cards underperformed, which were better than expected, etc...
-Note the players who are playing the cards you're keeping an eye on... maybe the card wasn't good for them because they didn't have it in the right deck.
It's up to you whether to ban cards because the players hate them. Personally, I ban cards that are unfun. Since I also have a legacy-legal cube, the only card I had to ban was Jace, Memory Adept because he can take an awesome game and ruin it. However, some of my players hate LD, and I keep a solid LD package in because it's a critical part of magic.
Hope this helped!
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I take your point: in a small group, different players have different habits, and the fact that one card hasn't made it into many decks isn't necessarily a comment on its appropriateness for the cube. On the other hand, in a small group (mine, at least), play skill varies tremendously. Two of our players haven't played Magic in at least 5 years, but are intrigued by cubing enough to return for that purpose. I was hopeful that the post-game talks about the drafts, decks, etc. would help even things out. For instance, if Player A says that one card was lackluster, the rest of us could talk through it. Perhaps over time, as skill levels adjust, main-deckability would be useful shorthand.
For now at least, I may have different goal than you (and I may have failed to provide enough info in my opening post, assuming that it didn't affect the decision whether to keep or cut a card). We're constraining our cube to certain sets at the outset, and overall power level doesn't matter as much as developing a "balanced" limited environment ("balanced" in the sense that several archetypes are supported and can compete with each other). With that in mind, we're all expecting some duds in the first iteration of the cube, to be ironed out through playing.
- My Full Mirrodin Cube (draft it here)
- My One-Drop Cube (draft it here)
MCC Winner Nov ‘14 & Nov ‘15
I get it. What do you think: should each player maintain his own master spreadsheet, or should there be one for the entire group (with each player taking up a portion, like on your template)? The first option seems easier to administer, but would keep the information from being viewed by all.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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...or it may mean the playgroup doesn't understand how the card works.
Smokestack and Upheaval are 2 cards that should be in every cube, but sat in sideboards for a while in our playgroup because we didn't understand how to break them. Once we figured it out, they're in a deck every draft now.
My Legacy-Legal Cube <--- Draft It!
wtwlf123's Classic Cube
Lanxal's Pauper Cube
Cubers, UNITE! Don't forget to post your cube location on The Great Cube Map Thread
Upheaval and Smokestack might be pushing it a little, but I was just trying to point out that cards that sit in a sideboard may not be inherently bad, but that the playgroup might just need to try them.
My Legacy-Legal Cube <--- Draft It!
wtwlf123's Classic Cube
Lanxal's Pauper Cube
Cubers, UNITE! Don't forget to post your cube location on The Great Cube Map Thread
That makes sense. When I built my first incarnation of my cube, almost every card was one that I had an affinity for.
My Legacy-Legal Cube <--- Draft It!
wtwlf123's Classic Cube
Lanxal's Pauper Cube
Cubers, UNITE! Don't forget to post your cube location on The Great Cube Map Thread
What does this actually mean?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
- My Full Mirrodin Cube (draft it here)
- My One-Drop Cube (draft it here)
MCC Winner Nov ‘14 & Nov ‘15
Bit of advice... do not replace Sword of X and Y unless both of these criteria are met: 1.) They print more Swords of X and Y for allied colors and 2.) your list is less than 360 cards. For now basically every cube should be running all five, IMO.
I've yet to see a card that is tiresome to play with/against in the cube. I love all these cards because they're fun and powerful. Cut cards because they aren't performing or because a better version is printed.
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If Swords of X and Y are getting tiresome to play against, it's probably because there's not enough artifact destruction in the cube. If they're getting tiresome of playing with (*beeep* *booop* #!@#DOES NOT COMPUTE@##$), then don't pick them/don't put them in your deck.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/993
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
I don't think a card going 15th in a pack has any indication of its merit in the cube unless you see that card going last repeatedly. There are times that I've seen something like Tooth and Nail or Carnophage go 15th, but that's just because those decks didn't get built during that draft. The better thing to look out for is seeing Carnophage go 15th multiple times in a row. Maybe that means your group isn't a fan of black aggressive decks. Maybe that means you're not running enough support for that deck. The same for archetype enablers like Tooth and Nail or Natural Order. If those cards are going 15th often, then you need to think about your support for the deck and your group's desire to play that deck. On the same note if you see black aggro decks all the time, but you're running something like Vault Skirge to support it and that card is going last over and over, then maybe that's not a great card or at least maybe that card isn't needed as much as you thought.
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It's not. Sometimes cards go last. Oh well. It doesn't matter how they're picked, it matters how they play when they are picked. If a card never gets played, that's a different indicator than being last picked.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!