One of the best Legacy players I knew argued with me (on The Source) about how much better Ink Eyes was in cube than Sol Ring.
We all make misevaluations starting out. No one was driving the "Upheaval sucks" bandwagon harder than me.
I remember our early "WTF is this card in cube?" card was Braids, Cabal Minion. I just kept it in because all the other cubes ran it but I think in the first 6 months it wasn't run once. Then some random guy drafted with us and just rolled people with early dorks into Braids. Once we "got" why Braids was good she started to see lots of play.
I remember our early "WTF is this card in cube?" card was Braids, Cabal Minion. I just kept it in because all the other cubes ran it but I think in the first 6 months it wasn't run once. Then some random guy drafted with us and just rolled people with early dorks into Braids. Once we "got" why Braids was good she started to see lots of play.
That's why it's important to listen to experienced Cubers. I had the exact misevaluation experience with Braids, Memory Lapse, Remand, Waterfront Bouncer, Upheaval, etc.
Sam Black is a really strong magic player, but I'm not convinced he knows that much about cube.
Definitely a strong player in multiple formats.
I read his article, and it seems he comes from a certain perspective of what he wants a cube to look like, and that cube includes a lot of combo-ish support in black, blue, and artifacts, rather than aggro. Which is fine, you just have to take that into consideration if that's what you do or don't want your cube to look like.
I keep saying it recently, but cubes nowadays can look very different from one another and still include very powerful cards and interactions. It's all about the experience you want to create.
Sam Black is a really strong magic player, but I'm not convinced he knows that much about cube.
Could be! But I sometimes think that the Cube forum here, while a great source of information, can be a little inbred and self-referential. Seeing opinions from strong Magic players without preconceived notions can be a great thing. I don't automatically treat Black's words as gospel, but I'm willing to entertain what he says. Dismissing it as contrary to Salvation groupthink is a mistake.
That's why it's important to listen to experienced Cubers. I had the exact misevaluation experience with Braids, Memory Lapse, Remand, Waterfront Bouncer, Upheaval, etc.
I'm still waiting for Waterfront Bouncer to impress me, and he's been in my cube from the very beginning. I think everyone must be wrong...
I'm still waiting for Waterfront Bouncer to impress me, and he's been in my cube from the very beginning. I think everyone must be wrong...
Ironically I find this card to be mildly overrated, because it is so insanely frustrating to play against. Trying to mount any sort of offense against is is worse than facing a Maze of Ith or an Icy, and trying to remove it, or another creature from the other side is almost as maddening. Plus, blue doesn't have any good CitP effects that are abuse-able, right? Like Mulldrifter, or Snapcaster with a Time Walk and waitwherethecrapdidtherestofmyturnsgo?
Could be! But I sometimes think that the Cube forum here, while a great source of information, can be a little inbred and self-referential. Seeing opinions from strong Magic players without preconceived notions can be a great thing. I don't automatically treat Black's words as gospel, but I'm willing to entertain what he says. Dismissing it as contrary to Salvation groupthink is a mistake.
This can certainly be true, which is why I really like when people explain why they like a card that is out of the mainstream here. I wish I could see his reasoning. Generally, the group is right, and the individual is wrong. When the individual is right though, it is often difficult to convince the group.
I'm still waiting for Waterfront Bouncer to impress me, and he's been in my cube from the very beginning. I think everyone must be wrong...
Actually, this brings up a point I'd like clarifying. How good is Waterfront Bouncer supposed to be and is there a trick to it besides discard cards, bounce dudes? I've never tried it in my cube and always raised an eyebrow when I saw it on others' lists. It just looks really unimpressive unless you're running reanimator or Life from the Loam/Crucible of Worlds or have some other way to make the discard less of a cost.
EDIT: I had my post written but not posted before Phantizle's post above. I'm still not quite sure I get it, but it does shed some light. Discarding a card just seems a bit steep, even for repeated bounce.
This can certainly be true, which is why I really like when people explain why they like a card that is out of the mainstream here. I wish I could see his reasoning. Generally, the group is right, and the individual is wrong. When the individual is right though, it is often difficult to convince the group.
The main reason is that he believes the Modo Cube, in particular is ill-suited to aggro outside of red and white, and that even against those decks, going over the top with big spells is the key to winning. Thus, drafting mana rocks of any kind is the best strategy, and he specifically mentions Lotus Bloom as strong for that deck.
Actually, this brings up a point I'd like clarifying. How good is Waterfront Bouncer supposed to be and is there a trick to it besides discard cards, bounce dudes? I've never tried it in my cube and always raised an eyebrow when I saw it on others' lists. It just looks really unimpressive unless you're running reanimator or Life from the Loam/Crucible of Worlds or have some other way to make the discard less of a cost.
EDIT: I had my post written but not posted before Phantizle's post above. I'm still not quite sure I get it, but it does shed some light. Discarding a card just seems a bit steep, even for repeated bounce.
On the surface he doesn't seem like he gives you that much value, but if you are on the heavy tempo plan, the ability to Unsummon any creature they play can buy you enough time to mount an impressive board presence. As well he fits into many different deck strategies which want to dump cards into the graveyard, with more efficiency than a card like Oona's Prowler. Late game he can turn dead draws into relevant spells. I find a card like WB to be a welcome draw at just about any point in the game
The only thing I don't like about him is that given his muscle size in the art, I would expect him to be larger than a 1/1... It is misleading really.
Actually, this brings up a point I'd like clarifying. How good is Waterfront Bouncer supposed to be and is there a trick to it besides discard cards, bounce dudes? I've never tried it in my cube and always raised an eyebrow when I saw it on others' lists. It just looks really unimpressive unless you're running reanimator or Life from the Loam/Crucible of Worlds or have some other way to make the discard less of a cost.
EDIT: I had my post written but not posted before Phantizle's post above. I'm still not quite sure I get it, but it does shed some light. Discarding a card just seems a bit steep, even for repeated bounce.
Well, if we compare it to other repeated bounce...hmm, Jace 2? Not much to go on there. Well, think about ManOWar/AAdept. These are very solid creatures that cost 3 mana for a 2/2 and a one time sorcery bounce. Since a 2/2 isn't worth two mana, the bounce ability must at least be fairly powerful. WB trades the body for a 1/1, and the "one time sorcery" for a "instant speed repeatable" at the cost of a card per bounce.
Repeated bounce is brutal, because it forces them to recast the creature, and wait another turn to attack. This alone makes WB a great wall. Add in the ability to protect your own creatures, and his value goes up. Kill tokens = more value. Abuse all the amazing Etb and graveyard shenanigans in cube...even better. How many games have you played where you don't need to either stop attackers, protect your creatures, and have play zero EtB/graveyard tricks?
Put another way, turning unwanted or mediocre draws into Unsummons is solid for a two drop.
The main reason is that he believes the Modo Cube, in particular is ill-suited to aggro outside of red and white, and that even against those decks, going over the top with big spells is the key to winning. Thus, drafting mana rocks of any kind is the best strategy, and he specifically mentions Lotus Bloom as strong for that deck.
I can get down with this. Ramp/fixing in poorly constructed cubes is almost always solid.
Hmmm. I guess I'll have to give the Bouncer a try next time I'm making updates. Thanks for the explanations and sorry for the minor derailment (I could have sworn I was in the Card Evaluation Thread when I posted that).
Just wanted to mention that I saw several articles on SCG mention that they thought the Mtgo cube had aggro leanings. This makes me think that most cubes that get played at big events don't operate under the same theory as our forum does.
Just wanted to mention that I saw several articles on SCG mention that they thought the Mtgo cube had aggro leanings. This makes me think that most cubes that get played at big events don't operate under the same theory as our forum does.
The main reason is that he believes the Modo Cube, in particular is ill-suited to aggro outside of red and white, and that even against those decks, going over the top with big spells is the key to winning. Thus, drafting mana rocks of any kind is the best strategy, and he specifically mentions Lotus Bloom as strong for that deck.
I mean that's true of aggro unless you get the cards that keep control from going over the top, like the geddons on sulfuric vortex or tangle wire or whatever. The other reason why aggro probably seemed bad is that I think most players aren't used to actually building aggro decks. In regular limited decks even in aggro you'd play any 6-drop bomb because they aren't true aggro decks, but cube aggro decks don't want cards like Sun Titan regardless of how powerful they are, yet I think lots of "aggro" decks run mutiple 5s and 6s. That doesn't mean aggro is bad or that Lotus Bloom is good just that people are confused.
That cube only really supports aggro in 2/5 colours, and has a very high curve indeed. I'm surprised it can be considered 'too aggressive'. What are the authors' previous experiences in those articles? I'd say it leans too far towards dragon cube with stuff like Ulamog and Prime Time knocking around.
Just wanted to mention that I saw several articles on SCG mention that they thought the Mtgo cube had aggro leanings. This makes me think that most cubes that get played at big events don't operate under the same theory as our forum does.
There are a lot of local cubes here and they are all much slower than the typical cube on this site. Most of them are even a little slower than the MTGO cube. Seems like most people must like super dragon cubes.:rolleyes:
That cube only really supports aggro in 2/5 colours, and has a very high curve indeed. I'm surprised it can be considered 'too aggressive'. What are the authors' previous experiences in those articles? I'd say it leans too far towards dragon cube with stuff like Ulamog and Prime Time knocking around.
I think the cube also supported black aggro. None in blue and no green aggro either. But basically I agree. To me the MTGO wasn't great for aggro and was more dragon cubey, but there were some aggro decks.
That cube only really supports aggro in 2/5 colours, and has a very high curve indeed. I'm surprised it can be considered 'too aggressive'. What are the authors' previous experiences in those articles? I'd say it leans too far towards dragon cube with stuff like Ulamog and Prime Time knocking around.
The reason people find it too "aggressive" is the lack of efficient answers in the colors that don't have a proverbial pile of 1 and 2 drops. If these colors had less 7 mana spells and so on that do nothing, it would be a completely different story.
I can definitely see where people are coming from, my playgroup has told me that my cube is too aggressive-bent, and I think mine is quite a bit slower than most cubes on this site. I think that for a lot of cube players, if aggro is too strong, then they won't have time to set up their sweet deck.
And setting up a sweet deck is something that a lot of cube players like to do.
But I didn't think that the MTGO cube was too harsh on aggro, I did fine with red, black, and green decks that were pretty aggressive considering the cube. I ran Leatherback Baloth in 2 different decks! This cube was my first time playing Reckless Charge, as well, and although the Baloth isn't migrating to my cube anytime soon, the Charge very well might, that card was sick!
The only cards that I really thought were out of place in that cube were the random Priest of Urabrask-style Storm enablers.
I can definitely see where people are coming from, my playgroup has told me that my cube is too aggressive-bent, and I think mine is quite a bit slower than most cubes on this site. I think that for a lot of cube players, if aggro is too strong, then they won't have time to set up their sweet deck.
And setting up a sweet deck is something that a lot of cube players like to do.
But I didn't think that the MTGO cube was too harsh on aggro, I did fine with red, black, and green decks that were pretty aggressive considering the cube. I ran Leatherback Baloth in 2 different decks! This cube was my first time playing Reckless Charge, as well, and although the Baloth isn't migrating to my cube anytime soon, the Charge very well might, that card was sick!
The only cards that I really thought were out of place in that cube were the random Priest of Urabrask-style Storm enablers.
-rexx
I actually like this dichotomy between super-saucy midrange-control cards and unassuming aggro cards. Either your deck is trying to get small increments of value and then bash face unharmed with a beater, or you're trying to be super efficient and go aggro. I like how some decks are "sweet" and some are just extremely elegant. It makes for a great diversity, just draft aggro in one draft and control in the next.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
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I remember our early "WTF is this card in cube?" card was Braids, Cabal Minion. I just kept it in because all the other cubes ran it but I think in the first 6 months it wasn't run once. Then some random guy drafted with us and just rolled people with early dorks into Braids. Once we "got" why Braids was good she started to see lots of play.
That's why it's important to listen to experienced Cubers. I had the exact misevaluation experience with Braids, Memory Lapse, Remand, Waterfront Bouncer, Upheaval, etc.
My 540 card Powered Cube last updated March 2022
Sam Black is a really strong magic player, but I'm not convinced he knows that much about cube.
Definitely a strong player in multiple formats.
I read his article, and it seems he comes from a certain perspective of what he wants a cube to look like, and that cube includes a lot of combo-ish support in black, blue, and artifacts, rather than aggro. Which is fine, you just have to take that into consideration if that's what you do or don't want your cube to look like.
I keep saying it recently, but cubes nowadays can look very different from one another and still include very powerful cards and interactions. It's all about the experience you want to create.
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Could be! But I sometimes think that the Cube forum here, while a great source of information, can be a little inbred and self-referential. Seeing opinions from strong Magic players without preconceived notions can be a great thing. I don't automatically treat Black's words as gospel, but I'm willing to entertain what he says. Dismissing it as contrary to Salvation groupthink is a mistake.
I'm still waiting for Waterfront Bouncer to impress me, and he's been in my cube from the very beginning. I think everyone must be wrong...
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Ironically I find this card to be mildly overrated, because it is so insanely frustrating to play against. Trying to mount any sort of offense against is is worse than facing a Maze of Ith or an Icy, and trying to remove it, or another creature from the other side is almost as maddening. Plus, blue doesn't have any good CitP effects that are abuse-able, right? Like Mulldrifter, or Snapcaster with a Time Walk and waitwherethecrapdidtherestofmyturnsgo?
This can certainly be true, which is why I really like when people explain why they like a card that is out of the mainstream here. I wish I could see his reasoning. Generally, the group is right, and the individual is wrong. When the individual is right though, it is often difficult to convince the group.
EDIT: I had my post written but not posted before Phantizle's post above. I'm still not quite sure I get it, but it does shed some light. Discarding a card just seems a bit steep, even for repeated bounce.
The main reason is that he believes the Modo Cube, in particular is ill-suited to aggro outside of red and white, and that even against those decks, going over the top with big spells is the key to winning. Thus, drafting mana rocks of any kind is the best strategy, and he specifically mentions Lotus Bloom as strong for that deck.
On the surface he doesn't seem like he gives you that much value, but if you are on the heavy tempo plan, the ability to Unsummon any creature they play can buy you enough time to mount an impressive board presence. As well he fits into many different deck strategies which want to dump cards into the graveyard, with more efficiency than a card like Oona's Prowler. Late game he can turn dead draws into relevant spells. I find a card like WB to be a welcome draw at just about any point in the game
The only thing I don't like about him is that given his muscle size in the art, I would expect him to be larger than a 1/1... It is misleading really.
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Well, if we compare it to other repeated bounce...hmm, Jace 2? Not much to go on there. Well, think about ManOWar/AAdept. These are very solid creatures that cost 3 mana for a 2/2 and a one time sorcery bounce. Since a 2/2 isn't worth two mana, the bounce ability must at least be fairly powerful. WB trades the body for a 1/1, and the "one time sorcery" for a "instant speed repeatable" at the cost of a card per bounce.
Repeated bounce is brutal, because it forces them to recast the creature, and wait another turn to attack. This alone makes WB a great wall. Add in the ability to protect your own creatures, and his value goes up. Kill tokens = more value. Abuse all the amazing Etb and graveyard shenanigans in cube...even better. How many games have you played where you don't need to either stop attackers, protect your creatures, and have play zero EtB/graveyard tricks?
Put another way, turning unwanted or mediocre draws into Unsummons is solid for a two drop.
I can get down with this. Ramp/fixing in poorly constructed cubes is almost always solid.
Which articles? I'll be interested in reading it.
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Says it might be too aggresive
I mean that's true of aggro unless you get the cards that keep control from going over the top, like the geddons on sulfuric vortex or tangle wire or whatever. The other reason why aggro probably seemed bad is that I think most players aren't used to actually building aggro decks. In regular limited decks even in aggro you'd play any 6-drop bomb because they aren't true aggro decks, but cube aggro decks don't want cards like Sun Titan regardless of how powerful they are, yet I think lots of "aggro" decks run mutiple 5s and 6s. That doesn't mean aggro is bad or that Lotus Bloom is good just that people are confused.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
There are a lot of local cubes here and they are all much slower than the typical cube on this site. Most of them are even a little slower than the MTGO cube. Seems like most people must like super dragon cubes.:rolleyes:
I think the cube also supported black aggro. None in blue and no green aggro either. But basically I agree. To me the MTGO wasn't great for aggro and was more dragon cubey, but there were some aggro decks.
The reason people find it too "aggressive" is the lack of efficient answers in the colors that don't have a proverbial pile of 1 and 2 drops. If these colors had less 7 mana spells and so on that do nothing, it would be a completely different story.
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And setting up a sweet deck is something that a lot of cube players like to do.
But I didn't think that the MTGO cube was too harsh on aggro, I did fine with red, black, and green decks that were pretty aggressive considering the cube. I ran Leatherback Baloth in 2 different decks! This cube was my first time playing Reckless Charge, as well, and although the Baloth isn't migrating to my cube anytime soon, the Charge very well might, that card was sick!
The only cards that I really thought were out of place in that cube were the random Priest of Urabrask-style Storm enablers.
-rexx
Draft my 540 card powered cube here: http://www.cubetutor.com/draft/36935
I actually like this dichotomy between super-saucy midrange-control cards and unassuming aggro cards. Either your deck is trying to get small increments of value and then bash face unharmed with a beater, or you're trying to be super efficient and go aggro. I like how some decks are "sweet" and some are just extremely elegant. It makes for a great diversity, just draft aggro in one draft and control in the next.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.