We started something like this in mid june of this year and it fell to the way side. I know I had a blast and I am sure others did as well. So, this is such an undertaking of community involvement that we could start a new one each year.
What I want to use this thread for initially is to discuss, the foundation of how we will:
1. Ask for submissions.
2. Decide what size cube we build for (i'm all for 360)
3. Should we worry about archetypes or just go for it.
4. How we will submit ideas.
5. Who/What/How is it judged?
Lets get some feedback rolling and if its substantial enough we can start it up new years day
My Feedback
I like the idea of keeping it simple, ask for what we want, allow some submissions, limit it so when we go to judge we're not blasting through pages and pages. Also, I think we should either have a 2nd thread for submissions and rely on the poster them selves to edit their own post hold them to that for getting their submissions in, so it encourages keeping the thread down to a low page count and we can get it to multiple pages with individuals rather than people just replying with their new cards. Like this.
blahblah
For the current, then for any old stuff, just archive it..
blahblah
We can also do PMs. Sorta like magic merl does with his seal deck excersize.
I would not worry about archetypes but I would worry about curve if we want this to be at all playable. Also, I would ask that we keep the power level well below Sol Ring, actually I would like everything to be at least reasonable for print at less than Mythic Rare status. Having said that, chaotic idea spamming seems like it would be fun and once we get enough slots, say enough red 2 drops, then we start voting on cuts.
I would not worry about archetypes but I would worry about curve if we want this to be at all playable. Also, I would ask that we keep the power level well below Sol Ring, actually I would like everything to be at least reasonable for print at less than Mythic Rare status. Having said that, chaotic idea spamming seems like it would be fun and once we get enough slots, say enough red 2 drops, then we start voting on cuts.
That is a good idea as well, and what could be done is, we have unlimited submissions, but you can only pick like 2-3 votes a piece? Like I submit 9 cards, you submit 7, then two others submit 1-3 each, then we pick 2 out of all of those? or perhaps more?
Also I put the previous links in the top spoiler!!!
That is a good idea as well, and what could be done is, we have unlimited submissions, but you can only pick like 2-3 votes a piece? Like I submit 9 cards, you submit 7, then two others submit 1-3 each, then we pick 2 out of all of those? or perhaps more?
Also I put the previous links in the top spoiler!!!
Limiting the votes seems like a good idea. Are we going to brainstorm and tweak the cards or just throw things up and they are what they are?
Well that's the part I'd like feedback on. I don't think a lot of people liked that they would submit stuff and it would be changed because it was deemed unfit. Personally I think that is part of the creation process, and if something is too OP, let the votes dictate if its too ridiculous to see print.
I think only the original designer should make calls on the final design but they can and should take advice from others. Then everyone else can vote after the design is finalized.
I almost think that some project like this would be better if you split it up into small bits and assigned each one to a volunteer. Like, say one person would be responsible for coming up with all of the white aggressive 1- and 2-drops, and a few support cards outside of that classification. And afterward, if there are other archetypes that need to be included that need some help, the group as a whole can come up with solutions to vote on.
Also, we should come up with guidelines for power level and complexity level. There were a number of cards in the last submission that were simply either too powerful for their cost or did 5 different semi-powerful things all in one card.
I almost think that some project like this would be better if you split it up into small bits and assigned each one to a volunteer. Like, say one person would be responsible for coming up with all of the white aggressive 1- and 2-drops, and a few support cards outside of that classification. And afterward, if there are other archetypes that need to be included that need some help, the group as a whole can come up with solutions to vote on.
Also, we should come up with guidelines for power level and complexity level. There were a number of cards in the last submission that were simply either too powerful for their cost or did 5 different semi-powerful things all in one card.
I don't like the idea assigning slots to people especially the aggressive 1 drops which I think are going to be pretty challenging to make good enough but not overpowered. I do however like the idea of limiting power level and complexity on the cards.
I don't really think we're in any position to set a size for the cube, yet. Like I mentioned in the print this wizards thread, going by each color 1 CMC at a time was long and boring and way too precise too soon. If this is going to work, or at least go farther than the precisely nowhere we got last time then we need to do it way differently.
I firmly believe that if something like this happens we would need to just include all cards made and whittle down the cube from a larger size by voting on cuts rather than voting cards to go in. I think we'd get to the point much faster, though we'll have an enormous cube to start with. Basically, I think everyone should just throw their cards in and when the dust settles we fill in some blanks and find a way to playtest. We don't really know how to tackle this, so being overly organized for something we don't know about seems like failure waiting to happen, and it seems like we'll end up making virtual copies of our existing cubes, which is a waste of time and creativity.
the thought process behind this is that I don't think a single one of us started our cubes with a set number of cards for each section and definable archetypes. You have to crawl before you walk. If we do it this way the custom cube would likely be able to take on it's own identity.
I think we should have a yearly custom cube, starting with 2011. That would be fantastic. I have plenty of ideas so as soon as I can post them I would love to.
A Space cube (or other) would be the best because then we should print them without fear of getting it shut down, something that we could print through artcow or other similar websites.
Some one drops that you might not have thought about:
Cardname - W Creature
CARDNAME enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.
Whenever an opponent gains life, remove a +1/+1 counter from CARDNAME.
1/1
Cardname - W Creature
Vigilance T: Target attacking creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
1/1
Simple designs like this create a big variety in the cube. We have to understand that 1 drops are going to be very challenging to create while still being unique. The creativity in a costume cube comes from the three drop and up range.
Ok, so I'll get the main thread start on new years eve then. we'll start with black. because these damn threads ALWAYS start with white and you know what, they can come last for all I care.
We'll go Black, green, artifact, gold, red, white, blue, lands. Just because!
With that...
Do you want to have the submissions just be 1 cc creature 2cc creature 3 cc creature 4cc creature and then non creatures or do you really want to go deeper and say I want some aggro creatures, I want some 187 creatures, I want some beaters, I want some disruption, I want some card draw.
Also how big do you want this cube to be. Lets figure that out now.
I think small is a good start, 360 is good and if we want to expand we can. I think we should have a general start with black and if someone has a great idea otherwise they can post it and we'll get back to it when that section rolls around.
I love the manaleak/lightning bolt that was suggested by the way, but it may need to cost 1RU.
Cardname - B Creature
Whenever CARDNAME attacks or blocks, lose 1 life.
2/2
We started doing one of these about 6-months ago, It was quite fun. I think it's important to have a communally voted on lead designer for the set who has the final say so of what does and does not go into the set. It's impractical to vote on everything from all 360 cards to the general curve of the set.
Not to say there shouldn't be a communal voice that goes into this project. But some things you just need someone to say "yes" or "no" to. Otherwise things get bogged down in debate.
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Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
Not to say there shouldn't be a communal voice that goes into this project. But some things you just need someone to say "yes" or "no" to. Otherwise things get bogged down in debate.
True, that's why I was thinking the voting process would weed out cards that just aren't designed right by nature and if the person who made the card, doesn't get his or hers chosen they can ask if there was something wrong with it and get feedback.
Ok, let me get some feedback here people because I want to get the main threads up by the 1st so I can have them ready and start accepting submissions. If we don't get any feedback though I will just have to go based on default responses here. I don't want to leave anyone's preference out.
Killem, I would probably look at the older custom cube threads for the cube size. I think it was something around 360 in size, with 35-50 multicolor cards, 50-60 cards of each color, and a roughly equal balance of lands and artifacts.
You may want to take submissions in installments, like once a week, in a new thread. Pretend like those cards are the only cards that exist in Magic. Then, act as if you're the cube manager. Add new cards in missing spots in the cube. If you want/need to cut a card to include something better in the cube, and don't think the decision is clear-cut, post it in a 'forum custom cube card evaluations thread' just like you would for a regular cube. Then, post the changes in the 'custom cube list' thread. People can comment on the changes, etc.
If a card looks too complicated, too powerful, etc. you can veto it from the current round of submissions (please give reasons) and then the people submitting ideas can improve them for the next round.
It's almost as if each person submitting ideas is making a MTG expansion, and we have to decide which cards to add to the cube. I think this sort of 'organic' cube design most closely resembles our current way of making cubes.
I did one of these about a year and a half ago on the Wizards boards and it was definitely very fun. We actually managed to complete the whole cube and I even did a follow-up contest about a year later to fill in some of the gaps I noticed when playing with the cube. From the experience, I realized a lot of what works and what doesn't, so here are my thoughts:
I was pretty lenient with this in my thread, and the final product ended up being about 100 cards larger than I had originally planned. But this wasn't really a problem because my friends and I like to see a lot of different cards when we cube. If you want to set the cube at an exact number like 360 then you'll need to know exactly how many of each type of card you want so you don't end up with any holes that make the cube unfun. For example, know that you want exactly 10 (or whatever) Wrath effects, exactly 40 cards that support weenie strategies, etc. Check out the cubes that already exist to know what types of cards you need and how many you want of each of them.
However this will best work for the community is how you should do it obviously, but my personal suggestion is to take submissions based on specific types of cards instead of on casting cost. I say this for a couple of reasons:
1. You want a balance of the types of cards. If you ask everyone to submit black noncreatures with 1CC, then you may get a lot of powerful spot removal cards and only a few discard spells that may not even be really cubeable. This leaves a hole in the cube that would have to be filled in a subsequent round. And then when you finally get around to filling that hole, you'd have to cut some of the cards that were already chosen to be included.
2. Basing it on casting cost removes A LOT of creativity. There are so many cards in the cube that are cubeable because of their flexibility. If you were to ask for white noncreatures with 2CC, the chances of anyone even thinking to submit Eternal Dragon are almost nil. But if you were to ask for white finishers that are good at all points in a game, there is a greater chance for creativity that may spawn an amazing card. There is also the question of where cards like Momentary Blink and Snuff Out fit. This also makes it more fun for those submitting because they're given specific guidelines that they then have to use to create something great.
When I did this, I chose all of the cards to include myself. This created a problem in the end because there were many cards that appeared great on paper, but in gameplay turned out to be overpowered or underpowered. I ended up having to change a lot of the cards to make the cube more fun to play with. In hindsight, I think a community voting process would have worked better, because the community en masse would (presumably) notice more things about a card than a single person could. So I think a community vote at the end of each round would definitely work best.
If you want to see how I went through the process when I did this, you can check out the original thread here.
I posted the final product on these forums about 6 months ago, and that forum can be found here.
I hope this helps, and I'll be excited to participate in this project!
I would like to principate in this project too. I was in like 4 custom set and I even was the leader of some of them. Ask me for anything in regards to sets' and cards' design and I hope that my expirience would help us to lead this project to a great happy end :-).
If he is darkavatar I am sooo happy he made if over here. The wizards boards has become a desolate sad place. How I don't know but it has and I hate that place.
If he is darkavatar I am sooo happy he made if over here. The wizards boards has become a desolate sad place. How I don't know but it has and I hate that place.
I am DarkAvatar, and it makes me sad how fast the cube forum died over there despite some of our efforts to keep it alive. But this joint is jumpin' and definitely the best reference and discussion forum for cubers everywhere.
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=246048
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=246883
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=246047
What I want to use this thread for initially is to discuss, the foundation of how we will:
1. Ask for submissions.
2. Decide what size cube we build for (i'm all for 360)
3. Should we worry about archetypes or just go for it.
4. How we will submit ideas.
5. Who/What/How is it judged?
Lets get some feedback rolling and if its substantial enough we can start it up new years day
My Feedback
I like the idea of keeping it simple, ask for what we want, allow some submissions, limit it so when we go to judge we're not blasting through pages and pages. Also, I think we should either have a 2nd thread for submissions and rely on the poster them selves to edit their own post hold them to that for getting their submissions in, so it encourages keeping the thread down to a low page count and we can get it to multiple pages with individuals rather than people just replying with their new cards. Like this.
blahblah
For the current, then for any old stuff, just archive it..
blahblah
We can also do PMs. Sorta like magic merl does with his seal deck excersize.
L2 Judge
Doh, you are right I should do that. ONE SEC!
That is a good idea as well, and what could be done is, we have unlimited submissions, but you can only pick like 2-3 votes a piece? Like I submit 9 cards, you submit 7, then two others submit 1-3 each, then we pick 2 out of all of those? or perhaps more?
Also I put the previous links in the top spoiler!!!
Limiting the votes seems like a good idea. Are we going to brainstorm and tweak the cards or just throw things up and they are what they are?
Also, we should come up with guidelines for power level and complexity level. There were a number of cards in the last submission that were simply either too powerful for their cost or did 5 different semi-powerful things all in one card.
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
I don't like the idea assigning slots to people especially the aggressive 1 drops which I think are going to be pretty challenging to make good enough but not overpowered. I do however like the idea of limiting power level and complexity on the cards.
I firmly believe that if something like this happens we would need to just include all cards made and whittle down the cube from a larger size by voting on cuts rather than voting cards to go in. I think we'd get to the point much faster, though we'll have an enormous cube to start with. Basically, I think everyone should just throw their cards in and when the dust settles we fill in some blanks and find a way to playtest. We don't really know how to tackle this, so being overly organized for something we don't know about seems like failure waiting to happen, and it seems like we'll end up making virtual copies of our existing cubes, which is a waste of time and creativity.
the thought process behind this is that I don't think a single one of us started our cubes with a set number of cards for each section and definable archetypes. You have to crawl before you walk. If we do it this way the custom cube would likely be able to take on it's own identity.
Cube list thread
Cubetutor
A Space cube (or other) would be the best because then we should print them without fear of getting it shut down, something that we could print through artcow or other similar websites.
Some one drops that you might not have thought about:
Cardname - W
Creature
CARDNAME enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.
Whenever an opponent gains life, remove a +1/+1 counter from CARDNAME.
1/1
Cardname - W
Creature
Vigilance
T: Target attacking creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
1/1
Simple designs like this create a big variety in the cube. We have to understand that 1 drops are going to be very challenging to create while still being unique. The creativity in a costume cube comes from the three drop and up range.
We'll go Black, green, artifact, gold, red, white, blue, lands. Just because!
With that...
Do you want to have the submissions just be 1 cc creature 2cc creature 3 cc creature 4cc creature and then non creatures or do you really want to go deeper and say I want some aggro creatures, I want some 187 creatures, I want some beaters, I want some disruption, I want some card draw.
Also how big do you want this cube to be. Lets figure that out now.
I love the manaleak/lightning bolt that was suggested by the way, but it may need to cost 1RU.
Cardname - B
Creature
Whenever CARDNAME attacks or blocks, lose 1 life.
2/2
I also like the idea of doing 360.
2 votes for 360. Lets make this happen!
Not to say there shouldn't be a communal voice that goes into this project. But some things you just need someone to say "yes" or "no" to. Otherwise things get bogged down in debate.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
True, that's why I was thinking the voting process would weed out cards that just aren't designed right by nature and if the person who made the card, doesn't get his or hers chosen they can ask if there was something wrong with it and get feedback.
I need to know cube size.
How to take submissions.
How to vote on submissions.
You may want to take submissions in installments, like once a week, in a new thread. Pretend like those cards are the only cards that exist in Magic. Then, act as if you're the cube manager. Add new cards in missing spots in the cube. If you want/need to cut a card to include something better in the cube, and don't think the decision is clear-cut, post it in a 'forum custom cube card evaluations thread' just like you would for a regular cube. Then, post the changes in the 'custom cube list' thread. People can comment on the changes, etc.
If a card looks too complicated, too powerful, etc. you can veto it from the current round of submissions (please give reasons) and then the people submitting ideas can improve them for the next round.
It's almost as if each person submitting ideas is making a MTG expansion, and we have to decide which cards to add to the cube. I think this sort of 'organic' cube design most closely resembles our current way of making cubes.
My Cube Blog @theCubeMiser on Twitter
1. You want a balance of the types of cards. If you ask everyone to submit black noncreatures with 1CC, then you may get a lot of powerful spot removal cards and only a few discard spells that may not even be really cubeable. This leaves a hole in the cube that would have to be filled in a subsequent round. And then when you finally get around to filling that hole, you'd have to cut some of the cards that were already chosen to be included.
2. Basing it on casting cost removes A LOT of creativity. There are so many cards in the cube that are cubeable because of their flexibility. If you were to ask for white noncreatures with 2CC, the chances of anyone even thinking to submit Eternal Dragon are almost nil. But if you were to ask for white finishers that are good at all points in a game, there is a greater chance for creativity that may spawn an amazing card. There is also the question of where cards like Momentary Blink and Snuff Out fit. This also makes it more fun for those submitting because they're given specific guidelines that they then have to use to create something great.
I posted the final product on these forums about 6 months ago, and that forum can be found here.
I hope this helps, and I'll be excited to participate in this project!
I have often wondered this.
Draft my cube!
Watch me stream!
If he is darkavatar I am sooo happy he made if over here. The wizards boards has become a desolate sad place. How I don't know but it has and I hate that place.
I am DarkAvatar, and it makes me sad how fast the cube forum died over there despite some of our efforts to keep it alive. But this joint is jumpin' and definitely the best reference and discussion forum for cubers everywhere.