It cost 4 to play and 4T to activate.In such a planeswalker heavy deck, you can expect The Chain Veil to replace a walker drop which means you need to have more than 1 walker out when you get the first activation, to make up for the walker not being played in the first place.
The card seems cool and all, but after time and costs are factored in the card is far from good and in the situations where it is good, it is certainly win more. This makes the inclusion of this card simply terrible. Ajani Steadfast may not get the effect of te ability out of walkers, but it gives you the extra umph you need to loyalty on other walkers, and pumps creatures to boot. His +1 also makes for nice Gideon, Champion of Justice swings to get some life back. Ajani, Mentor of Heroes is really only good in matches where they can easily dispose of walkers and you want a last ditch effort to pull back ahead. I would take Steadfast over Mentor in far more situations.
It may happen, but at what point does it happen and you feel like it is pulling you back into a game? Probably almost never because you are already winning and would be even without the veil.
Why don't lists run Mana Confluence? They serve just like the pain-lands (in a sense) and once you land an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, you can stop burning for the mana. More ETB untapped lands would help the deck's consistency considerably.
THANKS YOU for the informative posts on both of my decks! As for the veil, yea, I get you on the points you made (which are very solid may I add) it IS in the end more of a "win more" card, that said, what would you suggest (in my decklist) that I put in its stead?
THANKS YOU for the informative posts on both of my decks! As for the veil, yea, I get you on the points you made (which are very solid may I add) it IS in the end more of a "win more" card, that said, what would you suggest (in my decklist) that I put in its stead?
Ajani Steadfast He also gives you more growing tech where Mentor of Heroes does not. Hornet Nest could be a good answer to these White based aggro decks, by allowing you to block then block with lethal creatures and Ajani gives them a chance to get big in a standoff, while helping boost other Walkers.
1- I think either a 4C version or a Bant version is a lot stronger than this built. Adding blue gives access to cards such as Kiora, The Crashing Wave, Jace, Architect of thoughts, Supreme Verdict, Sphinx's Revelation and counterspells. These kind of cards gives you what Junk can't: swipers and crazy card advantage. I'm trying to build a Bant splashing black for two copies of that sexy Garruk but I wonder if splashing black for two cards is not too greedy.
2- Also, I'm afraid Hornet Nest might be to slow. In your build you have enough mana ramp to add the card, but I prefer the reprint of the 0/4 wall that gives you life when it is dealt damage.
3- As anyone tried Ajani, Steadfast? I have a few doubts about him. His -2 ability is definitely superfriends friendly but I wonder what would happen if he was alone on the battlefield. His +1 might be useless until you bright in a strong creature. Even then, why would we boost a 4/4 Elemental creature with trample, or a 9/9 Kraken, or a x/x indestructible (Gideon) or a 3/3 beast with death touch? He is also an ajani which can't be tricky when we play two different ajanis.
4- One way of making Nissa, Worldwaker more useful is simply adding more shocks that contain the word "Forest". In my version, there's 13 cards (on 25 lands) that can be untaped by Nissa.
I agree with you on the Ajani, Steadfast issue, when you drop him on the board alone (which you just should not do anyway) but if you got a bad draw then yea -- not good. This is the reason in my version I went with a 3/1 split of Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Ajani, Steadfast. I mean, the -2 is great and all but ultimately I feel that digging for your answers "Walkers" is a much more useful ability which JUNK does not normally have. And yes, I do realize that skipping past kill spells or other answers can be an issue with Ajani, Mentor of Heroes BUT, in a deck with this many walkers (13) I feel its just plain more useful in the long run. As for Nissa, Worldwaker , yes, her middle +1 is great and helps from time to time BUT, with all the mana acceleration in the deck her 1st +1 4/4 is just more useful 9/10 times imo.
----edit----
lol! I Forgot to upload my current build, here ya go 8D
Liliana Vess is interesting. With either Ajani, Mentor of Heroes or Underworld Connections in play, she basically reads "draw whatever card you want from your deck". And with Nissa, Worldwaker also in play, it becomes "play whatever card you want from your deck". Underworld Connections can be tutored with Ajani.
But even more interestingly, Underworld Connections can be untapped with Nissa for a total card draw of 3 per turn. And if you want to continue, Verdant Haven, which neatly ramps you from 3 to the coveted 5 mana, can also be tutored with Ajani (probably mainly if you need the life boost) and also untapped with Nissa for extra, color-fixed ramp.
This leads me to believe there's some sort of Junk build with Liliana, Ajani, Nissa, Underworld Connections and Verdant Haven. Add a couple of expensive 1-of finishers (Elspeth, New Garruk) and more ramp (Elvish Mystic, Sylvan Caryatid) and we're looking at a very solid mid- to late game.
I've been thinking about junk and I don't think it is a good superfriend archetype. Junk Midrange is a thing and will probably be stronger with the new Garruk and maybe even with Nissa but since we lack the remove all option we need to add more creatures to protect our walkers. Then the deck is more midrange than superfriend. The only plausible junk superfriend built I could see is a version full of fog and riot control.
I would usually agree with you but it seems tailor made for Nessa. She gives you free casting and activation each turn ramping up to your plainswalker ultimate.
I would usually agree with you but it seems tailor made for Nessa. She gives you free casting and activation each turn ramping up to your plainswalker ultimate.
Doesn't change the fact that you play it for 4 mana over something else that does not require something specific on the board.
Another thing people overlook on Nissa is the fact that her ability to turn your lands into creatures is in many ways, stronger than her ultimate. It gives you the ability to adjuust the pace in which you are opening up land for removal, which makes her untapped ability for chain veil just bad, because you are not using the mana anywhere else and if you are - you should just remove the veil from your deck anyways.
The one thing I realized the other day is that VS control, u SB Nissa out quick fast and in a hurry lol! No reason to loose "everything" IE lands/creatures.
Nissa isn't that bad against Supreme Verdict decks. Against control Nissa helps me ramp by untaping four forests. I'm never worried about taping out during my turn and therefore I have the mana to cast a counter spell during my opponent's turn. Also you can always play around Supreme Verdict. You just need to guess when he's going to play it or if he has it in his hand. Also you don't need an army of 4/4 creatures to be annoying. Often just one might be enough to put pressure on your opponent which will force him to react. You just have to be clever with Nissa.
I fail to see how people are imagining Nissa untapping 4 forests in a 3 - color deck with numerous duals. If you're evaluating Nissa, it should be for her land animation and little more since you should be winning by the time you pop her ultimate.
This is my most current iteration of JUNK. I dropped a few walkers, added a few spells, though, the SB is in flux -- so -- ill post it when I figure it out (waiting on the meta to change this week) 9D Oh, I also altered the mana, I wanted Nissa, Worldwaker to be able to be taken full advantage of.
---edit---
The reason I chose to include Darksteel Citadel in this list (vs my BUG w/ has not one copy) is for the sheer fact that i'm able to run Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in the deck. Which, imo, makes it a MUCH larger threat and worth a spot in the mana base.
I fail to see how people are imagining Nissa untapping 4 forests in a 3 - color deck with numerous duals. If you're evaluating Nissa, it should be for her land animation and little more since you should be winning by the time you pop her ultimate.
That's true except when your deck runs between 12 and 14 forests (you know that those shocklands can be untapped).
Even if half your lands are Forests, the odds of having 4 out to untap with Nissa are highly unlikely. Assuming you cast her in a timely manner then odds are you used dorks decreasing the chance you even have 4 lands, much less all of them being forests.
You dont need 4 forest to untap. yes its magical christmas land when you do cast her to have 4 open. but +1 old garruk for 2 forest was good. 4 is better
I'm just getting back into magic after being out of it since GTC came out so I'm in the process of re-learning what I missed out on. I like selith's list but I was wondering, have you considered Pyxis of Pandemonium in the board against control? The list does have a really large number of permanents and walkers can get caught by the legendary rule but what are your thoughts?
I'm just getting back into magic after being out of it since GTC came out so I'm in the process of re-learning what I missed out on. I like selith's list but I was wondering, have you considered Pyxis of Pandemonium in the board against control? The list does have a really large number of permanents and walkers can get caught by the legendary rule but what are your thoughts?
Totally agree with you. Besides, most of the time I tested Nissa in my Bant built I was able to untap three lands which is just enough to keep a dissolve in hand or cast a Courser.
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It cost 4 to play and 4T to activate.In such a planeswalker heavy deck, you can expect The Chain Veil to replace a walker drop which means you need to have more than 1 walker out when you get the first activation, to make up for the walker not being played in the first place.
The card seems cool and all, but after time and costs are factored in the card is far from good and in the situations where it is good, it is certainly win more. This makes the inclusion of this card simply terrible. Ajani Steadfast may not get the effect of te ability out of walkers, but it gives you the extra umph you need to loyalty on other walkers, and pumps creatures to boot. His +1 also makes for nice Gideon, Champion of Justice swings to get some life back. Ajani, Mentor of Heroes is really only good in matches where they can easily dispose of walkers and you want a last ditch effort to pull back ahead. I would take Steadfast over Mentor in far more situations.
It may happen, but at what point does it happen and you feel like it is pulling you back into a game? Probably almost never because you are already winning and would be even without the veil.
THANKS YOU for the informative posts on both of my decks! As for the veil, yea, I get you on the points you made (which are very solid may I add) it IS in the end more of a "win more" card, that said, what would you suggest (in my decklist) that I put in its stead?
Ajani Steadfast He also gives you more growing tech where Mentor of Heroes does not. Hornet Nest could be a good answer to these White based aggro decks, by allowing you to block then block with lethal creatures and Ajani gives them a chance to get big in a standoff, while helping boost other Walkers.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 13
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Gideon, Champion of Justice
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ajani Steadfast
Instants: 8
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy
1 Deicide
3 Banishing Light
Lands: 24
2 Forest
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Silence
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Golgari Charm
Now, I could have went either way with Ajani IE 3x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and 1x Ajani Steadfast like I have it OR, the other option 3x Ajani Steadfast and 1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes[/card], not sure which (though obviously I choose the former. The reason being is that though they are both solid Walkers, I prefer the search ability from Ajani, Mentor of Heroes over Ajani Steadfast for the means of getting the deck a movin. Not to mention the fact that Ajani, Mentor of Heroes works REALLY well with all the tokens ill be throwing around 8D
Thoughts?
I'd love to find room for Hornet Nest, but alas I cant seem to pull it off 8( (SB of course)
I also think Hornet Nest is probably going to have a much better pay out than Nyx-Fleece Ram for both Aggro and Midrange matches.
With the spoiling of AEtherspouts I am pretty sure BUG is going to be stronger as a whole.
2- Also, I'm afraid Hornet Nest might be to slow. In your build you have enough mana ramp to add the card, but I prefer the reprint of the 0/4 wall that gives you life when it is dealt damage.
3- As anyone tried Ajani, Steadfast? I have a few doubts about him. His -2 ability is definitely superfriends friendly but I wonder what would happen if he was alone on the battlefield. His +1 might be useless until you bright in a strong creature. Even then, why would we boost a 4/4 Elemental creature with trample, or a 9/9 Kraken, or a x/x indestructible (Gideon) or a 3/3 beast with death touch? He is also an ajani which can't be tricky when we play two different ajanis.
4- One way of making Nissa, Worldwaker more useful is simply adding more shocks that contain the word "Forest". In my version, there's 13 cards (on 25 lands) that can be untaped by Nissa.
I agree with you on the Ajani, Steadfast issue, when you drop him on the board alone (which you just should not do anyway) but if you got a bad draw then yea -- not good. This is the reason in my version I went with a 3/1 split of Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Ajani, Steadfast. I mean, the -2 is great and all but ultimately I feel that digging for your answers "Walkers" is a much more useful ability which JUNK does not normally have. And yes, I do realize that skipping past kill spells or other answers can be an issue with Ajani, Mentor of Heroes BUT, in a deck with this many walkers (13) I feel its just plain more useful in the long run. As for Nissa, Worldwaker , yes, her middle +1 is great and helps from time to time BUT, with all the mana acceleration in the deck her 1st +1 4/4 is just more useful 9/10 times imo.
----edit----
lol! I Forgot to upload my current build, here ya go 8D
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 13
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Gideon, Champion of Justice
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ajani Steadfast
Instants: 8
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy
1 Deicide
3 Banishing Light
Lands: 24
2 Forest
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Silence
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Wall of Essence
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Golgari Charm
Liliana Vess is interesting. With either Ajani, Mentor of Heroes or Underworld Connections in play, she basically reads "draw whatever card you want from your deck". And with Nissa, Worldwaker also in play, it becomes "play whatever card you want from your deck". Underworld Connections can be tutored with Ajani.
But even more interestingly, Underworld Connections can be untapped with Nissa for a total card draw of 3 per turn. And if you want to continue, Verdant Haven, which neatly ramps you from 3 to the coveted 5 mana, can also be tutored with Ajani (probably mainly if you need the life boost) and also untapped with Nissa for extra, color-fixed ramp.
This leads me to believe there's some sort of Junk build with Liliana, Ajani, Nissa, Underworld Connections and Verdant Haven. Add a couple of expensive 1-of finishers (Elspeth, New Garruk) and more ramp (Elvish Mystic, Sylvan Caryatid) and we're looking at a very solid mid- to late game.
I would usually agree with you but it seems tailor made for Nessa. She gives you free casting and activation each turn ramping up to your plainswalker ultimate.
Doesn't change the fact that you play it for 4 mana over something else that does not require something specific on the board.
Another thing people overlook on Nissa is the fact that her ability to turn your lands into creatures is in many ways, stronger than her ultimate. It gives you the ability to adjuust the pace in which you are opening up land for removal, which makes her untapped ability for chain veil just bad, because you are not using the mana anywhere else and if you are - you should just remove the veil from your deck anyways.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 10
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Instants: 8
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy
1 Deicide
1 In Garruk's Wake
Enchantments: 5
3 Banishing Light
2 Underworld Connections
Lands: 24
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Temple of Silence
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
2 Golgari Charm
4 Thoughtseize
1 Tyrant's Machine
6 ?
---edit---
The reason I chose to include Darksteel Citadel in this list (vs my BUG w/ has not one copy) is for the sheer fact that i'm able to run Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in the deck. Which, imo, makes it a MUCH larger threat and worth a spot in the mana base.
That's true except when your deck runs between 12 and 14 forests (you know that those shocklands can be untapped).
My answer: U serious bro?