I prefer the draw-go list and approach. You get so much more of a game lock out of AEtherspouts. I generally will just trade 1 for 1 until I sweep and land a walker then rinse and repeat until you have multiples online. I have learned that the BUG walkers are just not as good at controlling the board themselves as say Junk Walkers, so I certainly appreciate the draw-go approach a bit more. It has been working much better for me anyways.
The impression i was getting was that the game would play out like so:
1) Play defenders/walkers to protect your life total while your opponent floods the field with little guys, probably lose a walker or 2.
2) Wait for the opportune moment to cast Aetherspouts
3) Hold counter magic in hand to counter any of the creatures they are now redrawing OR play an ashiok, nightmare weaver to exile the creatures they just returned to the library, OR both.
4) Tick up walkers while using counters and spot removal to protect your walkers.
Thats how i saw BUG walkers playing out and that the Courser would definitely help this plan of durdle-town.
Courser, unlike Caryatid, is pretty good at keeping things like mid game mana dorks or Mutavaults from turning sideways. You get more value out of AEtherspouts when you can encourage attacks like these by actively keeping your mana open to work as damage mitigation while also giving you premium selection over how the board actually develops rather than taking it as it comes. The lack of courser helps you clean up in the event they need to add more pressure and start swinging with these low value creatures.
Historically, the issue with playing the draw-go game is that non-white control decks have not had aggressively cost sweepers that are effective in almost any situation which means instead of playing draw go, you find yourself playing some awkward midrange control deck using creatures to stall. AEtherspouts closes this gap that the draw-go decks were having and it does it in a unique way that works incredibly well with spot removal. Players can assume that they can just play their big creatures into it and play around it by not attacking with it and attacking with something else instead. Whereas against a card like Supreme Verdict, they play around it by simply not playing the creature in the first place and bait out the verdict as it suits them, which means it is hard to find a good balance of being able to use spot removal and get the most value out of Supreme Verdict. Spouts give you the flexibility of adjusting to them simply playing around it.
If Courser did not deter the early game from attacking during the mid and late stages, I would say that getting greedy with the mana would be worth having the body, but the reality is that it is just taking from the value you get with your removal in a number of ways.
going more midrange. it's been a lot of fun playing early ashioks and defending them. liking the sphinx, and the threat density tends to make nissa just romp through the last turns of the game.
Thanks for that Kamahl, and im totally with you on Aetherspouts being an awesome card. Theres one last thing i noticed, and that's that you dropped Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver to your sideboard due to it being too awkward to play with Carytid and Courser mainboard, but now that you have dropped Courser do you still think its too awkward to have a 3 drop walker again?
Just had a thought, with the coming wake of "Sliver Decks" surely coming our way ashiok, nightmare weaver is going to create some hilarious shenanigans. Also, Bile Blight, I believe, will prolly earn a slot or two as well. Oh, and that said lol! Here is an updated deck list, I honestly have no idea what I was thinking with the mana before, anyway, I fixed it, and it works VERY smoothly now.
I'm running a similar list to Kamahl but I've kept 4 Ashiok MB and moved Thoughtseize to the SB. In place of Thoughtseize I've brought 4 Deathrite Shaman MB. They've been working fantastic. The deck plays very well against Aggro with no Courser's in it. It also plays well against Junk Midrange. I've yet to test against Mono B yet.
I am kind of on the same path for what I have built. Also Drown in Sorrow in the main or sideboard? I am building more towards post rotation.
I think it fits better in the side. Caryatid and Courser naturally stymie aggro decks, I think our main deck is favored versus them already. Of course, who knows what Khans will bring.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Yea, I agree. The issue is that the curve of Sylvan Caryatid into Courser of Kruphix is just so solid lol! I guess in the same aspect though a turn two Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver at 5 loyalty is pretty good as well 8D Ultimately, I feel its gonna come down to one or the other (meta depending of course).
Deathrite has been amazing. He's never a dead draw. With how much removal we run, he can come down and either gain us life or drain. Against Aggro he can trade with pretty much any 1 drop that's not buffed if you can't hit graveyards. Once I start using removal on Aggro he pulls the game out of reach by exiling the creatures to gain me life. If they spend a turn on removing him, that's less damage they've put on the board and allows me to stabilize. The fact that he dodges both Doom Blade and Ultimate Price is invaluable in my meta that's littered with those removals and few, if any dark betrayal's. I face a lot of Aggro in my meta so stopping that T1 Loyalist is big. Elixir Control decks absolutely hate him as well, and I'd rather they counter him then a walker.
Interesting -- ill have to think about it. It's not a bad idea, I just have to analyze my meta and go from there. It does seem though, with all the current "mid-range" and/or control decks around it would be a good call. Good catch 8D
looking back on all the decklists (mine included, if not especially) i'd have to guess that kamahl is the only one who properly accounted for decks with four pack rats. those counters are looking quite appealing. i felt like the dude in rav/rav/rav limited with no pack rats. i hated being that dude.
looking back on all the decklists (mine included, if not especially) i'd have to guess that kamahl is the only one who properly accounted for decks with four pack rats. those counters are looking quite appealing. i felt like the dude in rav/rav/rav limited with no pack rats. i hated being that dude.
We have enough early disruption to not get overwhelmed by pack rats, and Aetherspouts is positively ruinous against a rat pack. I'm not overly concerned when facing them.
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might have just played some bad games, but i was getting slow-rolled as he kept spamming rats and attacking with one 5/5 or 6/6 rat at a time. the 4 thoughtseizes and 3 decays are probably good enough. a turn four rat sure does make me wish that decay was split-second, though.
edit: i totally won the game i drew the pithing needing. i like that card. probing attacks with big dudes is problem for spouts, though. i'm trying to mitigate stormbreath with prognostic sphinx's and i really have to watch out for polukranos and domri.
Jace, the Living Guildpact? Soul of Zendikar? Hornest Nest in the main deck? Dissipate over Dissolve?
Sorry but this built might be okay for casual but not for competitive play.
Yeh i agree with Igorr, and i feel like you either run 4xAetherspouts or none at all. Either you need it in your deck, or your deck doesnt want to play it at all. Liliana doesnt really do too much for us (im a huge fan of discarding for card advantage regardless) and only 1 Nissa? If you were going to run any walker as a 1-of it would be Garruk because drawing 2 is just not necessary.
I agree with both above, your deck list just lacks symmetry - its like your trying to go in multiple directions (which BUG is good at) BUT, those directions don't have any answers.
The Souls are cute, incredibly insane in limited but garbage in standard/modern/legacy. They are expansive and do nothing when they come into play. You actually have to wait an extra turn to get any advantage of the card. Your opponent can deal with it pretty easily especially in this format where there is a lot of removal options. The white one and red one might be playable in a devotion deck but otherwise I don't think these cards will define the format. They are probably the annoying/frustrating mythics you'll open in your booster packs/boxes.
Long gone are the days when powerful and expensive activations, are good card. Historically, cards like the Soul cycle are strictly worse than creatures with ETB abilities that are weaker, even if the disparit of the ETB is much greater.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Aetherling
Walkers: 14
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Instants: 13
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
2 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Aetherspouts
4 Thoughtseize
Lands: 24
4 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Breeding Pool
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Nylea's Disciple
4 Hornet Nest
2 Negate
2 ?
2 Dispel
1 In Garruk's Wake
2 Golgari Charm
SB is still in flux, but yea, I think you get the point.
1) Play defenders/walkers to protect your life total while your opponent floods the field with little guys, probably lose a walker or 2.
2) Wait for the opportune moment to cast Aetherspouts
3) Hold counter magic in hand to counter any of the creatures they are now redrawing OR play an ashiok, nightmare weaver to exile the creatures they just returned to the library, OR both.
4) Tick up walkers while using counters and spot removal to protect your walkers.
Thats how i saw BUG walkers playing out and that the Courser would definitely help this plan of durdle-town.
Historically, the issue with playing the draw-go game is that non-white control decks have not had aggressively cost sweepers that are effective in almost any situation which means instead of playing draw go, you find yourself playing some awkward midrange control deck using creatures to stall. AEtherspouts closes this gap that the draw-go decks were having and it does it in a unique way that works incredibly well with spot removal. Players can assume that they can just play their big creatures into it and play around it by not attacking with it and attacking with something else instead. Whereas against a card like Supreme Verdict, they play around it by simply not playing the creature in the first place and bait out the verdict as it suits them, which means it is hard to find a good balance of being able to use spot removal and get the most value out of Supreme Verdict. Spouts give you the flexibility of adjusting to them simply playing around it.
If Courser did not deter the early game from attacking during the mid and late stages, I would say that getting greedy with the mana would be worth having the body, but the reality is that it is just taking from the value you get with your removal in a number of ways.
3x forest
4x temple of deceit
2x temple of malady
3x temple of mystery
2x darksteel citadel
4x breeding pool
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1x yavimaya coast
4x overgrown tomb
creatures
4x sylvan caryatid
4x courser of kruphix
3x prognostic sphinx
4x kiora, the crashing wave
3x nissa, worldwaker
instants
3x abrupt decay
4x aetherspouts
3x hero's downfall
1x putrefy
sorcery
4x thoughtseize
2x ultimate price
1x dispel
3x duress
2x garruk, apex predator
3x hornet nest
3x negate
1x pithing needle
going more midrange. it's been a lot of fun playing early ashioks and defending them. liking the sphinx, and the threat density tends to make nissa just romp through the last turns of the game.
Creatures: 9
1 Aetherling
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 10
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Instants: 13
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
2 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Aetherspouts
4 Thoughtseize
Lands: 24
4 Breeding Pool
4 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Yavimaya Coast
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Back to Nature
2 Bile Blight
2 Dispel
4 Hornet Nest
1 In Garruk's Wake
2 Negate
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
---edit---
I guess I can see if one was to use the "new jace" rather then AoT...?
I think it fits better in the side. Caryatid and Courser naturally stymie aggro decks, I think our main deck is favored versus them already. Of course, who knows what Khans will bring.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
We have enough early disruption to not get overwhelmed by pack rats, and Aetherspouts is positively ruinous against a rat pack. I'm not overly concerned when facing them.
edit: i totally won the game i drew the pithing needing. i like that card. probing attacks with big dudes is problem for spouts, though. i'm trying to mitigate stormbreath with prognostic sphinx's and i really have to watch out for polukranos and domri.
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Hornet Nest
2 Soul of Zendikar
Walkers:11
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Liliana Vess
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Jace, the Living Guildpact
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
4 Dissipate
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Aethrspouts
Artifacts:2
1 Soul of New Phyrexia
1 The Chain Veil
Standard:
RGW Naya Control RGW
RR Red Deck Wins RR
BB Mono Black Devotion BB
EDH/Commander
GWU Rubinia, the Soulsinger GWU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
Sorry but this built might be okay for casual but not for competitive play.
I agree with both above, your deck list just lacks symmetry - its like your trying to go in multiple directions (which BUG is good at) BUT, those directions don't have any answers.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands