The cards we have seen before tonight's final reveal are strong enough, in fact they are stronger than what I was expecting at all - so we have that.
AEtherspouts is really a phenomenal card and I love that it gives non white control decks a bit of viability. Hornet Nest is no slouch either, giving non white control decks another valuable tool.
I am unsure if a Planeswalker list is really the direction BUG is going to take, but it seems good enough. I don't see it ever skimping on walkers as it is, I can see cards like Ashiok and Nissa being slots you could shave for additional card draw/removal. One thing I am noticing is the deck tends to flood fairly easily at 24 land. A lot of this may have to do with Kiora and Courser so I may play with these slots and the land a bit more.
Other than that, top deck battles are just brutal. Without any way to draw out of a top deck, you are left with an awkward power struggle when combating other midrange decks. I have somewhat addressed this with my current list, which I will save for a small write up here in the next few days.
Overall, I am really liking the core set. I feel it is the best core set to date, and I have played since Tempest.
<----Started RIGHT before 'Tempest' hit the shelves lol! I do agree with you completely on the flooding, I thought I was just getting strange draws 8P I think that dropping down to 23 would not be haphazard, I mean, normally in a "control" midrangey type deck w/ this many high cost "Walkers" one would think 24-25 easy. You are right though, the fact that Kiora just drops those lands out can get pretty crazy.
I'm actually considering a Sphinx's Revelation splash. Three Temple Garden should do it. I'll replace my Opportunity's with a few Revs and see how it goes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
The newly-spoiled Back to Nature certainly has a place in our sideboard. Could be brutal in a control match vs. UW if they start D-sphering our walkers.
Dissipate is back and should be kept in mind on the bench. If Khans has a graveyard theme, it might prove superior to Dissolve.
Abrupt Decay seems better than Back to Nature against control I feel. I could be wrong, but it is really the opportunity factor Abrupt Decay gives you. Not being a coubterabke spell offsets the risk of trying to get a 2 for 2 only to have it Dissolved. BrB seems better against a deck like GB Constellation than Control. I am happy to see Dissipate back.
I agree with you but I think this is a valuable sideboard option against any constellation or heavy enchantment build. Against control Abrupt Decay is definitely better since it can't be countered. Back to Nature can destroy multiple Detention Sphere/Banishing Light at the same time which is nice.
I understand that it can remove multiple spheres at once. I am just hesitant to be overdoing the Detention Sphere hate. The deck has far more problems against other midrange decks than it does Control and with Decay in the MB I just value the slots Back to Nature is filling - even more so when you are packing Golgari Charm as well in the board.
I think the build has enough walkers already and Vraska doesn't add anything really interesting. Her +1 is irrelevant, her ultimate creates three very vulnerable creatures. Her -3 might be good but I think the deck has enough removal to work with.
a couple questions. first, how many forests are y'll generally untapping with nissa? i keep getting tempted to fiddle with the manabase and try for 12-14 forests, but i'm worried about relying too heavily on caryatid with LBZs running around. also, maybe a single cyclonic rift in the main is a good idea? it does a little work no matter what and it's not too hard to get to 7 against midrange decks.
finally, i kinda like 4 kiora/ 4 nissa over AoT. courser/caryatid/nissa/kiora just do wonders. everything does everything to help everything do everything. very finally, i wanna try genesis hydra f
or the lulz.
edit: looks like i'm running more lands than ya'll think is appropriate. i got 26. seemed worthwhile to me to get the most out of kiora/nissa.
I couldn't say which is better. I don't like Dissolve in this list, and I'm running a little more removal. I think Aetherspouts is going to rock in this sort of deck, and it seems much more effective than Gaze of Granite.
I also put serious effort into maximizing my Forest count for Nissa's benefit. Your list only runs 6 forests, while mine has 11. That's why I'm avoiding the new Painlands. Not sure what your justification is for running Darksteel Citadel either.
Edit: Dunno why Garruk is in the system but Aetherspouts isn't. It's the 3uu instant that puts all attacking creatures on top or bottom of the opponent's library. Safe to cast with dorks on the table, card advantage unlike Aetherize, and quite affordable.
Plus if you ran Ashiok, the nightmare weaver you could put three of their best guys on top to steal with her +1.
First of all do you have enough forests to enable the second +1 of Nissa? The deck right now has Plasm Capture. Which honestly is a blow out for most midrange decks. MBD, G/R Monsters, Naya. In the one standard I played with it I was able to counter Erebos and a Reaper of the Wilds allowing me to jam Kiora for free and stand mana for protection. I also had one game where I got a Elspeth. This could be our way to cheat in an early Garruk T4 on the caryatid draw. Gaze of Granite is counter intuitive to our planeswalker strategy. We would just need to draw and answer our opponents with 1 for 1's until a Planeswalker resolves and we very slowly generate CA. Underworld Connections and Courser of Kruphix are a must have for the synergy. However against agro T3 is not when you want to tap out for connections and probably you don't ever really want to play that so replace it with drown in sorrow out of board. Putrefy is probably a go to removal spell here for the last part of standard as a solid spot removal and Spear of Heliod or Obelisk of Urd removal.
With Nissa, her 2nd +1 is just gravy imo. I mostly use her for the 1st +1 4/4 creatures b/c honestly a "a good defense is a good offense." As for the Plasm Capture, I, myself kind of rotated all of my counters out of the deck a few days back however, I do see the synergy with it -- under the right circumstances of course. I completely agree with you on Gaze of Granite, that card has no place in this deck with all of the permanents on the board at any given time. When I first "brewed up" this deck I was running a 4x Courser of Kruphix 2x Underworld Connections split, and yea, it was cool and all BUT -- the amount of card draw one garners from Kiora, the Crashing Wave and Jace, Architect of Thought is more then enough. As for Putrefy, yes, I can see myself adding one more to the board if all these "artifact decks" take off -- but not before then.
So after a while of messing with BUG and feeling where things are at, here is a small write up about my thoughts and where I am at with the deck currently.
The Turning of Tides
I have always been a blue mage at heart and I often stray from venturing into the realm of R and G mana. With Theros, I slowly grew accustom to RG Monsters and became a big fan of the deck. If I were to pick a major archetype that I enjoy playing more than anything, it is a midrange deck. Control has often been my fall back archetype because of my general distaste for R and G, and historically I have found that a nice compromise for me is to settle on a controlling midrange deck which can let me have my cake and eat it too. UBG generally falls pretty neatly into this world and with the spoiling of M15, I am glad I can finally move away from W based control and venture into what is easily my favorite color wedge and take advantage of the midrange archetype whilst having some good control options to bring everything together.
M15 is a pretty spectacular Core Set in my eyes, and perhaps the most intriguing thing M15 brings to the table is the option to move away from white based control. We have historically been plagued by expensive black mass removal that is often times clunky or ineffective at removing an entire board and cried for the reprinting of Damnation have seemingly gone unheard. Blue has had some cheap sweeping options from time to time, but often they are just cards that act as soft removal for a board and are not very one-sided and Whelming Wave was a pretty underwhelming option.
M15 - Twist and Turns
AEtherspouts is a real game changer for the face of control decks in Standard, even with the existence of Supreme Verdict. Spouts is strictly blue and for a single mana you get a crazy tempo swinging option to punish the opponent with. The card packs an incredible amount of power for control decks aiming to stray away from the current white-based shells and even without Sphinx's Revelation, these control decks can gain some additional use out of cards like Courser of Kruphix for some life gaining support, or Sylvan Caryatid as some ramp options into the top end. With UBGmaking waves in block with Kiora, the Crashing Wave backed with some good black spot removal, AEtherspouts enables it to have a chance at porting over to Standard nicely without having to rely on white mana to pull you to stabilization. M15 brings forth some other great tools for helping stabilize against aggressive strategies and with the power of black and green cards in Theros the support of blue for removal helps wrap it up in a nice and neat package. In some ways, Spouts is a better gift to non-white control decks than Damnation by allowing you to potentially sweep an entire side of the board whilst keeping your established state current.
AEtherspouts gets my vote as the most influential card in all of Magic 2015 Core Set, allowing us one of the most effective non-white sweeping options priced to move mountains in Standard. I have no doubt that this card will be capable of bringing other control strategies to life even before the 2014 rotation hits.
M15 - Bringing the Pain
One thing that white based control is missing on the top end of things, is a powerhouse threat. Even in block, Elspeth, Sun's Champion stands as one of the biggest threats you can face in Theros. Elspeth provides a well rounded option to combat Control, Midrange, and Aggro and proves to be a big hitter for any white based deck that can afford to be spending the mana. Magic 2015 Core Set does a really fantastic job of providing a top end planeswalker to BG mages looking to hunt bigger game in the form of Garruk, Apex Predator which provides a wide number of options to help you combat a number of situations.
Alongside Garruk, Apex of Predators, M15 offers us a very well rounded midrange Planeswalker in the form of Nissa, Worldwaker who offers the ability to ramp into Garruk, but perhaps more importantly, tread the line between stabilization and closing out the game. The wonderful thing about Nissa, Worldwaker is that even without a whole lot of basics, you are able to still get a bit of her ultimate out of her without ever having to -7 her. Simply continuing a +1 uptick allows you to continually pump out bodies in the late game and can make lands of the top have a bit more value in the event you are peeling extras.
Historically, at least for the life of UBG in Return to Ravnica and Theros Standard, these colors have lacked a solid finisher outside of AEtherling which is not the best option against aggressive strategies, so having access to these two walkers that are capable of bringing the pain is something this color set up has very much been in need of.
Overall, Magic 2015 Core Set brings a lot to the table for UBG to have potential to be a viable option to some degree and it is nice to see some fresh options that deviate from Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Revelation and for me that is certainly the biggest draw I have to the deck.
Take 2
It was not all that long ago that I decided to play UBG Control for my local Journey into Nyx Game Day and was able to win a pretty sweet play mat with the deck. After enjoying my spoils, I decided to write a somewhat detailed summary of what went into the construction of the deck and how and what, I understood of the deck. The final list I used was quite different from what I am playing now with Magic 2015 Core Set exposed, but it served as a solid launching point for me to gather information and decide which way I felt it best to take the deck. I certainly suggest giving the summary a read.
With the information about M15, I have since revised my list something more akin to block in some ways but also something quite different in other ways, but let me walk through this with things a bit more broken down!
From the Ground Up
My original UBG list as it stood before M15, had a lot of removal and the only creature it ran was AEtherling. The original thought behind this was that I wanted to be using an aggressive curve through playing Planeswalkers and that the strongest curve you could set yourself up for was Thoughtseize into Abrupt Decay into Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and that the curve was able to act as a carousel, in which the curve was designed to be able to handle most situations, but parts were interchangeable to account for various situations you might run into where you need to have more specific plays available. I originally touched on this concept using removal here, as well as touched on it a bit more vaguely when I had written the summary of my accounts with UBG. With M15, I have moved away from this concept a bit to allow me to focus more on a creature package to deal with more hyper aggressive strategies where Drown in Sorrow and Scavenging Ooze can sometimes struggle to pull you back into the game, such as matches against R or B based aggro, where ooze is easily removed. This also allows us to get even more value out of a sweeper effect like AEtherspouts why still giving us representation on board. This set up is straight from block, using Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Caryatid as ramp/life gain and big walls to stall out aggro into AEtherspouts.I do not have my original starting point with UBG and M15, but I have a reflection of these changes that is more in-line with my current list which looked like this:
There was quite a bit of takeaway from this list which has brought me to where I currently am, and they were issues I felt needed to be addressed, which I am not entirely sure I have completely addressed, but for the most part I am confident I have.
First of all, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. This card is such a powerhouse when curving off Thoughtseize and 2CC removal and it was good enough that I knew I wanted to be doing with with M15 out as well. The problem is that when you start moving in things like Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix, you dilute your optimal curve because you can now just skip a 3 drop when your on the Sylvan Caryatid of you can just play Courser of Kruphix for life and indexing your library by a card and Ashiok becomes an awkward play, not necessarily weaker - just awkward.
Next up was the issue of simply seeing too much mana. 24 lands seemed like a good spot to be sitting with 4 Courser of Kruphix and 4 Sylvan Caryatid and the decks from block run even more. But Standard is a different beast, you have cheaper removal options and better removal options and while that may not justify running less and less lands, it does justify finding the correct balance. Going down to 23 land seemed like a terrible idea to me, while Monsters can skate it UBG does not run Elvish Mystic as additional mana support, but instead runs Kiora, the Crashing Wave. Finding a balance to allow us to at least get to Kiora seems like the best course of action, and she can do her own thing from there.
Finally, I noticed that in midrange matches the deck would often times struggle to come back after the hand was simply depleted and it was left in a really funky top-deck war that is not always the easiest to win because you don't pack many heavy hitting creatures. Jace, Architect of Thought was the best thing you could top deck, and it was so good that when you would top deck it things would drastically change in the game. It was very evident that more card draw that could pull multiple cards off the top was necessary.
A few days and iterations later, I have come to my current list that I am pretty happy with outside of small adjustments that will depend on what happens with the meta when M15 is in full swing.
Let's break down some of these options in a bit more detailed post to help bring things together and, ultimately the deck, full circle.
Figuring out the right Planeswalker set up was probably the most time consuming part in deck construction as a whole. Without much surrounding context, it is hard to figure out what roles are necessary, what roles are just powerful, and what roles must actually be defined and why. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, while being a great card for putting on early pressure and diverting attacks, loses some of his appeal for me as I start to adjust to like with Courser and Caryatid. As I previously stated, it just left me in an awkward spot to play him where I would find myself either surpassing him with Kiora, the Crashing Wave on turn 3, or playing Courser of Kruphix on turn 3 and hitting my land drop to scry and gain a life. It was not necessarily less powerful to play Ashiok, just awkward. His role has been delegated to the SB as a pressure card for midrange and control strategies. His application with AEtherspouts can be incredibly powerful against GX midrange decks.
Nissa, Worldwaker was another focal point which I wanted to address at some point or another. My default count was 3, as I wanted to see her consistently and be able to pull off crazy ramp tricks or start dumping 4/4's out. After everything was said and done, her ability to untap 4 lands was a marginal ability I rarely used. Kiora was generally enough to give me the mana I need when I need it and maximizing the lands I could untap with Nissa was not really all that valuable even in the event I could untap 4 forests. Nissa ended up playing the role of a finisher, and I wanted to see less of her so I was not turning lands into 4/4's too early or playing her just to untap and do very little with. 2 has become the perfect number and with the additional card draw, seems to be the sweet spot.
Jace, Atchitect of Thought was a card I added an additional copy of to the MB because his top-deck value was such a game changer. I had originally thought that Kiora was enough draw to really pull through, but when she only draws an additional land, you are left feeling pretty filthy. Jace does a good job at restocking you regardless of what you hit as well as pulling you through pockets. His role is pretty self explanatory.
I really want enough ways to dig through pockets or come back from a top-deck battle, but running 4 Jace's seemed excessive. Even in UW I find 4 to sometimes be a bit too much, and there are a number of players in the community that I have heard mention this already. Finsind extra draw when you are not in W can be tricky though. Either you are paying a high premium, or you are not getting enough. Opportunity is the best bang for your buck, but this is fairly akward if you are spending later turns just building up board presence with extra stuff as not to waste mana. 3UU seemed like a real sweet spot and Jace's Ingenuity felt like a better place to be. 5CC is a pretty open space to play with certain cards and with Nissa, you are able to get an early Ingenuity off her +1 ability to untap 4 extra land. Opportunity may or may not be the correct call here, but I personally think I will be sticking with Jace's Ingenuity as my additional card draw support. It has show to be early and sometimes quick and if you have AEtherspouts mana up on turn 4 and your opponent makes a conservative attack, you are free to just take some extra cards and save the sweeper for a more opportune moment.
With the walker count being more precise, and having some solid draw options to help combat top-deck battles, the deck begins to be much more well rounded and the pieces start moving together as one much better. The removal package as a whole seems to be fairly correct, one option I wanted more of was a sweeper that could make up for Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver being moved to the side and no longer having an option to dispose of creatures slipped to the top of the library with AEtherspouts. I had originally filled the additional sweeper effect slots with Extinguish All Hope but after a large number of test games where I felt I was just seeing too much mana, I had came to the conclusion that 7BB for In Garruk's Wake was a fair price that was achievable often enough to pack 1 in the MB without feeling too much guilt.
I ultimately felt that while the Drown in Sorrow and Scavenging Ooze plan was solid against aggro, the existence of Obelisk of Urd makes Drown in Sorrow much less effective and Hornet Nest allows you to play a similar game regardless of the size of your opponent's creatures. Hornet Nest aslo has some application to Monsters decks getting some good value out of combat against cards like Polukranos, World Eater. 4 Hornet Nest might be enough, so the singleton Nylea's Disciple may be overkill, but it was mainly in there for the burn matches, where an additional copy of Dispel may be good enough while also covering the control match a bit as well.
With Hornet Nest as the anti-aggro plan, I had considered running Golgari Charm as additional anti-aggro tech, while giving me the ability to regenerate Hornet Nest and the tokens for some added durability and artifact removal, which was something I put a good amount of thought into with the acceptance that Obelisk of Urd was a tough card to combat, AEtherspouts ultimately ruled out the necessity of Golgari Charm for me in the end.
Genesis Hydra was a final addition as a way to top-deck into more value in the later stages of the game, while giving you a pseudo toolbox effect to dig for some other options. I am unsure if this is a slot I want to keep intact, as the card is good but not entirely necessary. I think running a single AEtherling in it's place is probably a better call to make when all is said and done.
The Calm Before the Storm
With M15's release date looming in the near future, it is difficult to say how accurate these lists are, or even if BUG is capable of keeping up. I feel it has some upswings that you simply do not get with a WBG list which is most notably the ability to sweep one side of the board an swing tempo at the same time, but Junk lists will certainly have their own merits as well. Until the battles start, we can only speculate on the future of UBG in Standard, but one thing is for sure - Magic 2015 has certainly shown some potential to influence the Standard format upon release.
Kamal, a few things: great article(?), I can identify as a player; this deck looks awesome and fun too play, I really like the one of Genesis Hydra; as much as I want BUG to be competitive I think we will have to wait til Khans. I'd whip out the debit card and build this deck but the last time I did that, dega midrange, I ended up just playing esper and getting bored after a month.
I think your idea about Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver was a "Stroke of Genius." It did/does feel a little awkward in combination with the other spells in the deck on turn 3/4 (good call). The Jace's Ingenuity addition is perfect imo because its one of the things the deck REALLY needed mid-game because more often then not id be sitting there with an empty or close to empty hand -- very nice.
The Genesis Hydra is a cool idea, but ultimately I think its just "cute" and I would lean in favor of the Aetherling you made mention of. I feel that is a much better spot for him mainly because he is pretty much the "ultimate" finisher barring any counter spell shenanigans of course. The subtraction of one Courser of Kruphix seems to me like a awkward call however, if it works it works right?
In Garruk's Wake, a VERY interesting card indeed. As you said, in this type of deck its really not that far out of the realm of reality to have the mana to cast this when needed BUT, I feel that it would be a better SB option rather then MB -- but thats just me 8D All and all though thats an AMAZING write up and I know I, and many others do/will appreciate it 8D
I play BUG control in block, and I don't play standard so take this with a grain of salt.
In block, stormbreath dragon can be a problem since it has haste and can just fly in and kill a walker the turn it's played. We also have similar problems with revel of the fallen god.
I don't think revel sees play in standard, and even if it did you should be at a point where you aren't adding to the board and can hold up spouts without a problem. But you could still be adding to the board when stormbreath can be played. Prognostic sphinx is a great card because it can not only stop the dragon so you can untap and kill it, but it can also kill planeswalkers since there aren't many fliers and it's pretty much impossible to kill outside of a wrath. Now obviously sphinx is better in block because we don't have verdict, and nissa's +1 can deal with most walkers, but if there's a big creature out nissa's +1 doesn't help much. I think prognostic sphinx would be good in here because it will help out in these areas. Plus scry 3 with a courser out is ridiculous value.
I also think you want ashiok in the main. Sure it can be awkward on turn 3 but it makes later turns easier. Say turn 6 you can play ashiok and hold up downfall instead of choosing between a more expensive card and holding up that removal spell.
Again, I don't play standard so I could be 100% wrong here.
I will say that in block we do need some type of card draw outside of kiora since she's so fragile, so we might need jace's ingenuity. It seems better than divination or read the bones at any rate.
EDIT:
Genesis hydra seems really bad in here. I mean if you haven't played any permanents and you play him you are trying to hit one of 17 cards with him an dyou will have other permanents out and you are playing garruk so you're realistically tyring to hit one of 7-9 permanents if even. It seems extremely inconsistent.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Glad that you moved Ashiok to the sideboard. Against control it's a bomb but against everything else it is average I believe. Jace's Ingenuity is great in deck as a replacement of Sphinx's Revelation. I would maybe add a third copy of the card and remove Genesis Hydra. The card is cute, indeed, but I don't think it works in synergy with the rest of the deck. I just don't see what is its role in the build. I would see this card in a green midrange deck but otherwise I don't know what he is doing in a BUG Superfriend. Garruk's Wake is also a card I would remove and add more counterspells in the main deck. I think 2-3 should be wise as it can protect our walkers in the late deck, especially if we meet creatures like Stormbreath Dragon or Blood Baron of Vizkopa.
Overall I think the deck is cute but I doubt of its competitive level. From my experience, heavy planeswalker built were usually using spells like fog to protect their walkers until they hit their ultimate. But I think this is worth testing at least as it sounds very funny to play. Oh and I can't wait to play that Garruk, Apex Predator and kill the annoying Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
Hay all! I made some adjustments to my 'BUG,' and I would like some input on my variation if possible. MUCH THANKS to Kamahl, the Fallen for his commentary, assistance, and last but not least his amazing write-up on it as a whole.
I play BUG control in block, and I don't play standard so take this with a grain of salt.
In block, stormbreath dragon can be a problem since it has haste and can just fly in and kill a walker the turn it's played. We also have similar problems with revel of the fallen god.
I don't think revel sees play in standard, and even if it did you should be at a point where you aren't adding to the board and can hold up spouts without a problem. But you could still be adding to the board when stormbreath can be played. Prognostic sphinx is a great card because it can not only stop the dragon so you can untap and kill it, but it can also kill planeswalkers since there aren't many fliers and it's pretty much impossible to kill outside of a wrath. Now obviously sphinx is better in block because we don't have verdict, and nissa's +1 can deal with most walkers, but if there's a big creature out nissa's +1 doesn't help much. I think prognostic sphinx would be good in here because it will help out in these areas. Plus scry 3 with a courser out is ridiculous value.
I also think you want ashiok in the main. Sure it can be awkward on turn 3 but it makes later turns easier. Say turn 6 you can play ashiok and hold up downfall instead of choosing between a more expensive card and holding up that removal spell.
Again, I don't play standard so I could be 100% wrong here.
I will say that in block we do need some type of card draw outside of kiora since she's so fragile, so we might need jace's ingenuity. It seems better than divination or read the bones at any rate.
EDIT:
Genesis hydra seems really bad in here. I mean if you haven't played any permanents and you play him you are trying to hit one of 17 cards with him an dyou will have other permanents out and you are playing garruk so you're realistically tyring to hit one of 7-9 permanents if even. It seems extremely inconsistent.
Prognostic Sphinx is not a card I have actually tried in the list at this point. So long as Supreme Verdict is prevalent, I am concerned about actually running the card. Stormbreath Dragon is still an issue in Standard, at least from my testing, which is another reason why I am currently packing In Garruk's Wake in the main. Dragon is not very hard to keep at bay, the problem is that eventually you just run out of AEtherspouts and miss on Hero's Downfall then just die to the dragon. Sphinx would certainly help this, it is just something that I have not had on my radar because of the cards that see so much play in Standard. More effective removal against him just makes him harder to reliably play and removal in Standard is prime.
Ashiok in the MB is still solid, it is just awkward playing him often times. I don't doubt that he is a house.
Genesis Hydra is really not that great unless you are casting him for a ridiculous amount and hit a good split with it. As I stated, AEtherling seems much better in this slot.
Glad that you moved Ashiok to the sideboard. Against control it's a bomb but against everything else it is average I believe. Jace's Ingenuity is great in deck as a replacement of Sphinx's Revelation. I would maybe add a third copy of the card and remove Genesis Hydra. The card is cute, indeed, but I don't think it works in synergy with the rest of the deck. I just don't see what is its role in the build. I would see this card in a green midrange deck but otherwise I don't know what he is doing in a BUG Superfriend. Garruk's Wake is also a card I would remove and add more counterspells in the main deck. I think 2-3 should be wise as it can protect our walkers in the late deck, especially if we meet creatures like Stormbreath Dragon or Blood Baron of Vizkopa.
Overall I think the deck is cute but I doubt of its competitive level. From my experience, heavy planeswalker built were usually using spells like fog to protect their walkers until they hit their ultimate. But I think this is worth testing at least as it sounds very funny to play. Oh and I can't wait to play that Garruk, Apex Predator and kill the annoying Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
I did not move Ashiok out of the main because he was average, but rather that he made your hand play out in a funky way that I ultimately was just not comfortable with. The idea with Hydra is the same as the idea with Nissa, having the ability to deploy 2 threats in a single card is good, especially when your deck has multiple angles opponents have to attack, such as walkers. It wreaks havoc on decision making in a format as litteres with 1 for 1 spot removal as ours.
My problem with counter spells is the deck's curve wants you to be tapping out, which in turn makes things like counter magic, fairly awkward.
I kind of want to see the prophet of kruphix in the 75 along side genesis hydra. I was thinking maybe a 2x. Not sure I would play it over Nissa in the 5x slot, but it makes your AEtherspouts and jace's ingenuity that much strong, not to mention all of your other instants. Along side genesis hydra it can be used as a hell of surprise attack too.
Just some thoughts.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Prognostic Sphinx is not a card I have actually tried in the list at this point. So long as Supreme Verdict is prevalent, I am concerned about actually running the card. Stormbreath Dragon is still an issue in Standard, at least from my testing, which is another reason why I am currently packing In Garruk's Wake in the main. Dragon is not very hard to keep at bay, the problem is that eventually you just run out of AEtherspouts and miss on Hero's Downfall then just die to the dragon. Sphinx would certainly help this, it is just something that I have not had on my radar because of the cards that see so much play in Standard. More effective removal against him just makes him harder to reliably play and removal in Standard is prime.
Well just one deck really has verdict right? You can board him out. But I completely understand he's going to be a lot better post rotation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
AEtherspouts is really a phenomenal card and I love that it gives non white control decks a bit of viability. Hornet Nest is no slouch either, giving non white control decks another valuable tool.
I am unsure if a Planeswalker list is really the direction BUG is going to take, but it seems good enough. I don't see it ever skimping on walkers as it is, I can see cards like Ashiok and Nissa being slots you could shave for additional card draw/removal. One thing I am noticing is the deck tends to flood fairly easily at 24 land. A lot of this may have to do with Kiora and Courser so I may play with these slots and the land a bit more.
Other than that, top deck battles are just brutal. Without any way to draw out of a top deck, you are left with an awkward power struggle when combating other midrange decks. I have somewhat addressed this with my current list, which I will save for a small write up here in the next few days.
Overall, I am really liking the core set. I feel it is the best core set to date, and I have played since Tempest.
Dissipate is back and should be kept in mind on the bench. If Khans has a graveyard theme, it might prove superior to Dissolve.
My sideboard is looking something like this:
2 Golgari Charm
3 Negate
2 Back to Nature
2 Reap Intellect
2 Duress
1 Jace, Memory Adept
- Back to Nature
- Polymorphist's Jest
- Dissipate
Nothing major but still cards to look out for depending on how to meta goes after M15.
EDIT: Should have refreshed the page before commenting. I just saw that someone else noticed the cards before me.
finally, i kinda like 4 kiora/ 4 nissa over AoT. courser/caryatid/nissa/kiora just do wonders. everything does everything to help everything do everything. very finally, i wanna try genesis hydra f
or the lulz.
edit: looks like i'm running more lands than ya'll think is appropriate. i got 26. seemed worthwhile to me to get the most out of kiora/nissa.
Plus if you ran Ashiok, the nightmare weaver you could put three of their best guys on top to steal with her +1.
The Turning of Tides
I have always been a blue mage at heart and I often stray from venturing into the realm of R and G mana. With Theros, I slowly grew accustom to RG Monsters and became a big fan of the deck. If I were to pick a major archetype that I enjoy playing more than anything, it is a midrange deck. Control has often been my fall back archetype because of my general distaste for R and G, and historically I have found that a nice compromise for me is to settle on a controlling midrange deck which can let me have my cake and eat it too. UBG generally falls pretty neatly into this world and with the spoiling of M15, I am glad I can finally move away from W based control and venture into what is easily my favorite color wedge and take advantage of the midrange archetype whilst having some good control options to bring everything together.
M15 is a pretty spectacular Core Set in my eyes, and perhaps the most intriguing thing M15 brings to the table is the option to move away from white based control. We have historically been plagued by expensive black mass removal that is often times clunky or ineffective at removing an entire board and cried for the reprinting of Damnation have seemingly gone unheard. Blue has had some cheap sweeping options from time to time, but often they are just cards that act as soft removal for a board and are not very one-sided and Whelming Wave was a pretty underwhelming option.
AEtherspouts gets my vote as the most influential card in all of Magic 2015 Core Set, allowing us one of the most effective non-white sweeping options priced to move mountains in Standard. I have no doubt that this card will be capable of bringing other control strategies to life even before the 2014 rotation hits.
Alongside Garruk, Apex of Predators, M15 offers us a very well rounded midrange Planeswalker in the form of Nissa, Worldwaker who offers the ability to ramp into Garruk, but perhaps more importantly, tread the line between stabilization and closing out the game. The wonderful thing about Nissa, Worldwaker is that even without a whole lot of basics, you are able to still get a bit of her ultimate out of her without ever having to -7 her. Simply continuing a +1 uptick allows you to continually pump out bodies in the late game and can make lands of the top have a bit more value in the event you are peeling extras.
Historically, at least for the life of UBG in Return to Ravnica and Theros Standard, these colors have lacked a solid finisher outside of AEtherling which is not the best option against aggressive strategies, so having access to these two walkers that are capable of bringing the pain is something this color set up has very much been in need of.
Overall, Magic 2015 Core Set brings a lot to the table for UBG to have potential to be a viable option to some degree and it is nice to see some fresh options that deviate from Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Revelation and for me that is certainly the biggest draw I have to the deck.
Take 2
It was not all that long ago that I decided to play UBG Control for my local Journey into Nyx Game Day and was able to win a pretty sweet play mat with the deck. After enjoying my spoils, I decided to write a somewhat detailed summary of what went into the construction of the deck and how and what, I understood of the deck. The final list I used was quite different from what I am playing now with Magic 2015 Core Set exposed, but it served as a solid launching point for me to gather information and decide which way I felt it best to take the deck. I certainly suggest giving the summary a read.
With the information about M15, I have since revised my list something more akin to block in some ways but also something quite different in other ways, but let me walk through this with things a bit more broken down!
My original UBG list as it stood before M15, had a lot of removal and the only creature it ran was AEtherling. The original thought behind this was that I wanted to be using an aggressive curve through playing Planeswalkers and that the strongest curve you could set yourself up for was Thoughtseize into Abrupt Decay into Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and that the curve was able to act as a carousel, in which the curve was designed to be able to handle most situations, but parts were interchangeable to account for various situations you might run into where you need to have more specific plays available. I originally touched on this concept using removal here, as well as touched on it a bit more vaguely when I had written the summary of my accounts with UBG. With M15, I have moved away from this concept a bit to allow me to focus more on a creature package to deal with more hyper aggressive strategies where Drown in Sorrow and Scavenging Ooze can sometimes struggle to pull you back into the game, such as matches against R or B based aggro, where ooze is easily removed. This also allows us to get even more value out of a sweeper effect like AEtherspouts why still giving us representation on board. This set up is straight from block, using Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Caryatid as ramp/life gain and big walls to stall out aggro into AEtherspouts.I do not have my original starting point with UBG and M15, but I have a reflection of these changes that is more in-line with my current list which looked like this:
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy
4 AEtherspouts
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
2 Duress
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vraska the Unseen
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Scavenging Ooze
There was quite a bit of takeaway from this list which has brought me to where I currently am, and they were issues I felt needed to be addressed, which I am not entirely sure I have completely addressed, but for the most part I am confident I have.
First of all, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver. This card is such a powerhouse when curving off Thoughtseize and 2CC removal and it was good enough that I knew I wanted to be doing with with M15 out as well. The problem is that when you start moving in things like Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix, you dilute your optimal curve because you can now just skip a 3 drop when your on the Sylvan Caryatid of you can just play Courser of Kruphix for life and indexing your library by a card and Ashiok becomes an awkward play, not necessarily weaker - just awkward.
Next up was the issue of simply seeing too much mana. 24 lands seemed like a good spot to be sitting with 4 Courser of Kruphix and 4 Sylvan Caryatid and the decks from block run even more. But Standard is a different beast, you have cheaper removal options and better removal options and while that may not justify running less and less lands, it does justify finding the correct balance. Going down to 23 land seemed like a terrible idea to me, while Monsters can skate it UBG does not run Elvish Mystic as additional mana support, but instead runs Kiora, the Crashing Wave. Finding a balance to allow us to at least get to Kiora seems like the best course of action, and she can do her own thing from there.
Finally, I noticed that in midrange matches the deck would often times struggle to come back after the hand was simply depleted and it was left in a really funky top-deck war that is not always the easiest to win because you don't pack many heavy hitting creatures. Jace, Architect of Thought was the best thing you could top deck, and it was so good that when you would top deck it things would drastically change in the game. It was very evident that more card draw that could pull multiple cards off the top was necessary.
A few days and iterations later, I have come to my current list that I am pretty happy with outside of small adjustments that will depend on what happens with the meta when M15 is in full swing.
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
1 Genesis Hydra
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy
2 Jace's Ingenuity
4 AEtherspouts
1 In Garruk's Wake
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Deceit
2 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Hornet Nest
1 Nylea's Disciple
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dispel
2 Negate
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Duress
1 In Garruk's Wake
Let's break down some of these options in a bit more detailed post to help bring things together and, ultimately the deck, full circle.
Figuring out the right Planeswalker set up was probably the most time consuming part in deck construction as a whole. Without much surrounding context, it is hard to figure out what roles are necessary, what roles are just powerful, and what roles must actually be defined and why. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, while being a great card for putting on early pressure and diverting attacks, loses some of his appeal for me as I start to adjust to like with Courser and Caryatid. As I previously stated, it just left me in an awkward spot to play him where I would find myself either surpassing him with Kiora, the Crashing Wave on turn 3, or playing Courser of Kruphix on turn 3 and hitting my land drop to scry and gain a life. It was not necessarily less powerful to play Ashiok, just awkward. His role has been delegated to the SB as a pressure card for midrange and control strategies. His application with AEtherspouts can be incredibly powerful against GX midrange decks.
Nissa, Worldwaker was another focal point which I wanted to address at some point or another. My default count was 3, as I wanted to see her consistently and be able to pull off crazy ramp tricks or start dumping 4/4's out. After everything was said and done, her ability to untap 4 lands was a marginal ability I rarely used. Kiora was generally enough to give me the mana I need when I need it and maximizing the lands I could untap with Nissa was not really all that valuable even in the event I could untap 4 forests. Nissa ended up playing the role of a finisher, and I wanted to see less of her so I was not turning lands into 4/4's too early or playing her just to untap and do very little with. 2 has become the perfect number and with the additional card draw, seems to be the sweet spot.
Jace, Atchitect of Thought was a card I added an additional copy of to the MB because his top-deck value was such a game changer. I had originally thought that Kiora was enough draw to really pull through, but when she only draws an additional land, you are left feeling pretty filthy. Jace does a good job at restocking you regardless of what you hit as well as pulling you through pockets. His role is pretty self explanatory.
I really want enough ways to dig through pockets or come back from a top-deck battle, but running 4 Jace's seemed excessive. Even in UW I find 4 to sometimes be a bit too much, and there are a number of players in the community that I have heard mention this already. Finsind extra draw when you are not in W can be tricky though. Either you are paying a high premium, or you are not getting enough. Opportunity is the best bang for your buck, but this is fairly akward if you are spending later turns just building up board presence with extra stuff as not to waste mana. 3UU seemed like a real sweet spot and Jace's Ingenuity felt like a better place to be. 5CC is a pretty open space to play with certain cards and with Nissa, you are able to get an early Ingenuity off her +1 ability to untap 4 extra land. Opportunity may or may not be the correct call here, but I personally think I will be sticking with Jace's Ingenuity as my additional card draw support. It has show to be early and sometimes quick and if you have AEtherspouts mana up on turn 4 and your opponent makes a conservative attack, you are free to just take some extra cards and save the sweeper for a more opportune moment.
With the walker count being more precise, and having some solid draw options to help combat top-deck battles, the deck begins to be much more well rounded and the pieces start moving together as one much better. The removal package as a whole seems to be fairly correct, one option I wanted more of was a sweeper that could make up for Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver being moved to the side and no longer having an option to dispose of creatures slipped to the top of the library with AEtherspouts. I had originally filled the additional sweeper effect slots with Extinguish All Hope but after a large number of test games where I felt I was just seeing too much mana, I had came to the conclusion that 7BB for In Garruk's Wake was a fair price that was achievable often enough to pack 1 in the MB without feeling too much guilt.
I ultimately felt that while the Drown in Sorrow and Scavenging Ooze plan was solid against aggro, the existence of Obelisk of Urd makes Drown in Sorrow much less effective and Hornet Nest allows you to play a similar game regardless of the size of your opponent's creatures. Hornet Nest aslo has some application to Monsters decks getting some good value out of combat against cards like Polukranos, World Eater. 4 Hornet Nest might be enough, so the singleton Nylea's Disciple may be overkill, but it was mainly in there for the burn matches, where an additional copy of Dispel may be good enough while also covering the control match a bit as well.
With Hornet Nest as the anti-aggro plan, I had considered running Golgari Charm as additional anti-aggro tech, while giving me the ability to regenerate Hornet Nest and the tokens for some added durability and artifact removal, which was something I put a good amount of thought into with the acceptance that Obelisk of Urd was a tough card to combat, AEtherspouts ultimately ruled out the necessity of Golgari Charm for me in the end.
Genesis Hydra was a final addition as a way to top-deck into more value in the later stages of the game, while giving you a pseudo toolbox effect to dig for some other options. I am unsure if this is a slot I want to keep intact, as the card is good but not entirely necessary. I think running a single AEtherling in it's place is probably a better call to make when all is said and done.
The Calm Before the Storm
With M15's release date looming in the near future, it is difficult to say how accurate these lists are, or even if BUG is capable of keeping up. I feel it has some upswings that you simply do not get with a WBG list which is most notably the ability to sweep one side of the board an swing tempo at the same time, but Junk lists will certainly have their own merits as well. Until the battles start, we can only speculate on the future of UBG in Standard, but one thing is for sure - Magic 2015 has certainly shown some potential to influence the Standard format upon release.
I think your idea about Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver was a "Stroke of Genius." It did/does feel a little awkward in combination with the other spells in the deck on turn 3/4 (good call). The Jace's Ingenuity addition is perfect imo because its one of the things the deck REALLY needed mid-game because more often then not id be sitting there with an empty or close to empty hand -- very nice.
The Genesis Hydra is a cool idea, but ultimately I think its just "cute" and I would lean in favor of the Aetherling you made mention of. I feel that is a much better spot for him mainly because he is pretty much the "ultimate" finisher barring any counter spell shenanigans of course. The subtraction of one Courser of Kruphix seems to me like a awkward call however, if it works it works right?
In Garruk's Wake, a VERY interesting card indeed. As you said, in this type of deck its really not that far out of the realm of reality to have the mana to cast this when needed BUT, I feel that it would be a better SB option rather then MB -- but thats just me 8D All and all though thats an AMAZING write up and I know I, and many others do/will appreciate it 8D
In block, stormbreath dragon can be a problem since it has haste and can just fly in and kill a walker the turn it's played. We also have similar problems with revel of the fallen god.
I don't think revel sees play in standard, and even if it did you should be at a point where you aren't adding to the board and can hold up spouts without a problem. But you could still be adding to the board when stormbreath can be played. Prognostic sphinx is a great card because it can not only stop the dragon so you can untap and kill it, but it can also kill planeswalkers since there aren't many fliers and it's pretty much impossible to kill outside of a wrath. Now obviously sphinx is better in block because we don't have verdict, and nissa's +1 can deal with most walkers, but if there's a big creature out nissa's +1 doesn't help much. I think prognostic sphinx would be good in here because it will help out in these areas. Plus scry 3 with a courser out is ridiculous value.
I also think you want ashiok in the main. Sure it can be awkward on turn 3 but it makes later turns easier. Say turn 6 you can play ashiok and hold up downfall instead of choosing between a more expensive card and holding up that removal spell.
Again, I don't play standard so I could be 100% wrong here.
I will say that in block we do need some type of card draw outside of kiora since she's so fragile, so we might need jace's ingenuity. It seems better than divination or read the bones at any rate.
EDIT:
Genesis hydra seems really bad in here. I mean if you haven't played any permanents and you play him you are trying to hit one of 17 cards with him an dyou will have other permanents out and you are playing garruk so you're realistically tyring to hit one of 7-9 permanents if even. It seems extremely inconsistent.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Overall I think the deck is cute but I doubt of its competitive level. From my experience, heavy planeswalker built were usually using spells like fog to protect their walkers until they hit their ultimate. But I think this is worth testing at least as it sounds very funny to play. Oh and I can't wait to play that Garruk, Apex Predator and kill the annoying Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
Well, here it is 8D
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Aetherling
Walkers: 10
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Instants: 13
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
2 Jace's Ingenuity
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Aetherspouts
4 Thoughtseize
Lands: 24
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Breeding Pool
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Duress
4 Hornet Nest
2 Negate
2 Dispell
1 Nylea's Disciple
1 In Garruk's Wake
Thoughts?
----edit----
Miss type, I am indeed running x3 Nissa, Worldwaker
Prognostic Sphinx is not a card I have actually tried in the list at this point. So long as Supreme Verdict is prevalent, I am concerned about actually running the card. Stormbreath Dragon is still an issue in Standard, at least from my testing, which is another reason why I am currently packing In Garruk's Wake in the main. Dragon is not very hard to keep at bay, the problem is that eventually you just run out of AEtherspouts and miss on Hero's Downfall then just die to the dragon. Sphinx would certainly help this, it is just something that I have not had on my radar because of the cards that see so much play in Standard. More effective removal against him just makes him harder to reliably play and removal in Standard is prime.
Ashiok in the MB is still solid, it is just awkward playing him often times. I don't doubt that he is a house.
Genesis Hydra is really not that great unless you are casting him for a ridiculous amount and hit a good split with it. As I stated, AEtherling seems much better in this slot.
I did not move Ashiok out of the main because he was average, but rather that he made your hand play out in a funky way that I ultimately was just not comfortable with. The idea with Hydra is the same as the idea with Nissa, having the ability to deploy 2 threats in a single card is good, especially when your deck has multiple angles opponents have to attack, such as walkers. It wreaks havoc on decision making in a format as litteres with 1 for 1 spot removal as ours.
My problem with counter spells is the deck's curve wants you to be tapping out, which in turn makes things like counter magic, fairly awkward.
Just some thoughts.
Well just one deck really has verdict right? You can board him out. But I completely understand he's going to be a lot better post rotation.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring