My bad lol! Thanks for pointing the mana thing out (I copy/pasted from a previous version) what can I say lol! As for the countermagic issue, yes, I get that. This is why I cut down to 3 Dissolve however, I am considering cutting it down to two Dissolve because of that very same issue. As for the Thoughtseize, I do feel you on that. I have been debating that issue BUT, I thought the Aetherspouts were/are a good answer to a lot of early creature threats.
I like it. Your version is a bit more permanent-heavy than mine, it'll be interesting to see which build is more effective when these cards become legal.
I've been thinking in circles about The Chain Veil. The effect is obviously quite powerful... but isn't it possible that you'd be better off just running another 4-mana Planeswalker?
Also, I'm totally running two Reap Intellect in the sideboard. It's a janky card, but this is the first deck I've had with ramp, a long game plan, and the right colors to cast it. Could be a total haymaker against control decks, and nobody is going to see it coming.
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I'm also unsure about veil, the no planeswalker drawback is a serious clock to contend with and that's not even considering the oppeneet. Also can someone explain to me trying to slot in Ashiok? He seems a bit out of place.
These Walker decks build themselves for the most part. I am certain that was have seen more walkers in this current standard session more than any other in the past, which gives planeswalker based decks a lot of play with what color set ups you can have. It is actually pretty fascinating as it seems pretty balanced for such an apex of playable planeswalkers. *I crack myself up.
Overall, curving with Thoughtseize leading as early as T1 gives you some powerful set up for your earliest walker, which is Ashiok. With a good set up Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is ridiculous in a format littered with creatures and even against Control where the options for removing it are slim. He is incredibly underrated it seems and probably the best walker in the deck simply because of how he plays out with a curve and how his presence on the board commands how the game flows as long as he remains alive. He also lets you start rolling out a tempo game in the mid game by allowing you to get a body + removal, or simply force players to rotate what walker they are attacking. He is also pretty nifty with AEtherspouts, being able to remove the creatures they try to keep on top.
AEtherspouts is pretty close to what these decks need. Where previously Whelming Wave was an option that is really pretty bad in general, spouts tucks them away or stifles any ability to topdeck something other than what they already had. Keeping the creatures out of the hand is important regardless of what happens with them when they meet the library. The simple fact that it is only hitting attacking creatures means Nissa, Worldwaker is free to make 4/4's as she pleases, or can allow you to untap some lands to cast this spell. This card is a big player for BUG decks in general and it is pretty amazing that we have received such a tool that was not white. Your early game is so much stronger with this card, because things like Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Caryatid on their own are not always enough and the irony about them being a good early game for a control deck, is that they are only good until your sweeper tosses them to the wind and a sweeper is what the deck wants.
Kiora is your other enabler for getting Garruk out or miking Nissa for value. This is why I have her count up there with Ashiok. The ability to draw cards is vital and adding lands to stack up into your other cards is what makes her so powerful and it is why I love her so much in Bant - she allows you to come over the top sooner with a Rev, which in our case is Garruk, Apex Predator
The Sideboard has some play to it, mainly some early sweep options for hyper aggressive decks. Unravel the AEther was something I had originally considered, because GB based decks are pretty cold to something like White Weenie with Obelisk of Urd or other convoke tricks, but AEtherspouts changes that aspect quite a bit.
I keep going back and forth between UBG and WBG and I think AEtherspouts is enough to make the decision pretty clear.
Reap Intellect is really a potential card until rotation. I would not simply dismiss it, as it is also good against things like Monsters and Mono Black as well as Control
I would rather just use Drown in Sorrow, card is a better sweep for 1 more mana and the enchantments I want to hit with it are what Abrupt Decay does well enough
I don't see why we can't run some of each, like what Selith69 is doing above.
@Selith: I like your use of Hornet's Nest. I somewhat dismissed it as a casual card at first glance, but it seems like a powerhouse blocker against the right deck. Could really neuter an aggro plan.
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I'm a bit concerned by the results of this poll. "Playable" is a fairly low-bar. The OP didn't say "Competitive", which, by the way, I think this easily could be.
Could some of the nay-voters explain the flaw in this sort of deck? I'd like to know if it's poor individual card choice or a perceived flaw in the entire concept.
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Looks good, I would either stick with the Drown in Sorrow plan or the Hornet Nest plan. I know I have been discussing the sweet value you can get out of Hornet Nest in the Junk thread, it has some good applications against both aggressive strategies and midrange strategies, which I feel may just make it better than Drown in Sorrow. You pay a bit more life up front by not being able to just sweep, but the payout is a pretty big thing, especially if you end up just having the option to cast AEtherspouts since your tokens can just start going to work on their own for a turn or two afterwards. I personally would go with the Hornet Nest plan and maybe forgo the Drown in Sorrow plan. This also justifies the inclusion of Golgari Charm a bit more in my opinion.
I am, but you're losing life points in the meantime.
If it was possible for this to be some large amount of life by turn 2, I would take this argument a bit more seriously. The maximum damage output is simply not high enough to give a T2 Golgari Charm more value than a T3 Drown in Sorrow I want value out of my cards while maintaining a streamlined 15 on the side, Golgari Charm loses value in the long run and that is pretty important when you are running cards like Sylvan Caryatid as a 2 drop that enables even more value out of a DiS. For me, it is one of the other, and if I have to soak up some extra damage to get more value, then so be it, my life is a resource well spent 2-3 damage for an extra card or two out of my opponents hand is absolutely worth it.
I don't see why we can't run some of each, like what Selith69 is doing above.
@Selith: I like your use of Hornet's Nest. I somewhat dismissed it as a casual card at first glance, but it seems like a powerhouse blocker against the right deck. Could really neuter an aggro plan.
At some point there will need to be a concession that you only need 1 or the other and that there is more to be had with filling those SB slots for other tools. Between Caryatid, Courser, and Spouts, you really only need charm or sorrow. The deck is not dead enough to aggro to really warrant both imo.
If you are on Drown in Sorrow skip charm. If you are on Hornet Nest then skip Drown in Sorrow. I personally will take the Nest plan because it plays well again things like Monsters where Sorrow does not
Thanks for clearing that up for me Kamahl, the Fallen -- its a very good point you made. It is a rather hard choice BUT, I think ima go with the Horney Nest not just because you said its awesome -- but -- because it is freaking awesome lol!
Also, being that there is A LOT of Walkers in the format right now, would not a singleton of In Garruk's Wake be a mote notable addition then Extinguish All Hope? I mean yes, the cost is HUGE but, in THIS deck its not THAT bad and, I have a feeling that "superfriends" type decks are gonna be a thing for the foreseeable future.
Nest is really good. I blocked a Polukranos for 5 tokens that flew over and killed a Domri and could untap and defend against Polukranos and Stormbreath Dragon. I am really fond of this card.
9 mana is a ton of mana. When I cast Garruk, Apex Predator, it is already difficult enough. I am weary of trying In Garruk's Wake when Extinguish All Hope has a reliable casting cost as it is. If you try it, let me know how good it is. Personally, I do not think there are a whole lot of decks that are jamming multiple planeswalkers, so I do not entirely see the need for it at this point in time.
lmfao! I actually looked up "Niset" thinking it was some card I missed 8P After reading further I got the gist of it lol! Anyway, in all seriousness I feel ya on In Garruk's Wake 9x mana is A LOT of mana. "Right now" you are right about it though, its not needed in the current meta. I do have a suggestion though, have you considered a duo of Nylea's Disciple in the SB? I know its always solid in 'mono green' and or 'G/x monster' variants BUT, against aggro type decks one can drop both Garruk, Apex Predator and not only drop the avg casting cost of the deck for the 2nd/3rd game BUT, garner you the ability to live through a "creature rush."
I am not having enough problems to start putting in more anti-aggro stuff to be honest. I do not have conclusive data to flat out say it is not needed, if that were the case I would have a write up posted.
I think the focus really needs to be more on dealing with other midrange matches more than aggro or control, at least for me anyways.
After a lot of work, i've came to be content with the current (as of this posts) main deck -- the SB on the other hand -- I am still tooling with. I've been thinking how difficult it could/will be to deal with Blood Baron of Vizkopa (being that he is prevalent in my area) so hows about 2x Turn to Frog over 2x Mistcutter Hydra? I also dropped the Drown in Sorrow in favor of 2x Nylea's Disciple (for those lame red decks out there) and 1x Pithing Needle for control and the mirror.
The main looks good to me. I know I need to adjust my mana base a bit more before I am happy with it. I run 2 fewer blue sources than you - which it looks like we both just ported over the Junk Walkers mana base I posted over there, which I think is solid as far as basics go. With Nissa having a +1 to make a 4/4, I do not think we actually need to ever ultimate her.
I think the lists are just going to have to start the waiting game as well, so see what actually does not develop and what is just smoke in terms of what other decks rise or fall after the release of M15.
I'm not worried about Blood Barons too much. He's a 5-drop, and we ramp. Blood Baron can be dealt with by double-Courser, Thoughtseize, Nissa's 4/4 buddies, Kiora's +1, Ashiok in multiple ways, Jace's +1 with a single blocking Courser, and Aetherspouts. Not being able to Downfall them isn't a big deal. Turn to Frog doesn't seem worthwhile, nor does Extinguish All Hope.
I feel like Pithing Needle is awkward. I'm running three distinct planeswalkers, and you're running five. That's a pretty big potential for friendly fire, and Pithing Needle isn't needed for much else besides Aetherling.
You already have the Hornet Nests vs. Aggro, is Nylea's Disciple really necessary? Caryatids plus Coursers are already naturally strong in that regard.
Maindeck Reap seems greedy. It's totally dead against fast decks. I'd rather run two in the board.
Thoughts?
What are your thoughts on this?
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 12
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Instants: 12
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dissolve
1 Putrefy
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Aetherspouts
3 Thoughtseize
Artifacts: 1
1 The Chain Veil
Lands: 24
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Breeding Pool
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Negate
1 AEtherling
2 Rapid Hybridization
1 Pithing Needle
Thoughts?
I've been thinking in circles about The Chain Veil. The effect is obviously quite powerful... but isn't it possible that you'd be better off just running another 4-mana Planeswalker?
Also, I'm totally running two Reap Intellect in the sideboard. It's a janky card, but this is the first deck I've had with ramp, a long game plan, and the right colors to cast it. Could be a total haymaker against control decks, and nobody is going to see it coming.
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Putrefy
4 AEtherspouts
4 Breeding Pool
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Forest
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
2 Duress
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vraska the Unseen
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Scavenging Ooze
Overall, curving with Thoughtseize leading as early as T1 gives you some powerful set up for your earliest walker, which is Ashiok. With a good set up Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver is ridiculous in a format littered with creatures and even against Control where the options for removing it are slim. He is incredibly underrated it seems and probably the best walker in the deck simply because of how he plays out with a curve and how his presence on the board commands how the game flows as long as he remains alive. He also lets you start rolling out a tempo game in the mid game by allowing you to get a body + removal, or simply force players to rotate what walker they are attacking. He is also pretty nifty with AEtherspouts, being able to remove the creatures they try to keep on top.
AEtherspouts is pretty close to what these decks need. Where previously Whelming Wave was an option that is really pretty bad in general, spouts tucks them away or stifles any ability to topdeck something other than what they already had. Keeping the creatures out of the hand is important regardless of what happens with them when they meet the library. The simple fact that it is only hitting attacking creatures means Nissa, Worldwaker is free to make 4/4's as she pleases, or can allow you to untap some lands to cast this spell. This card is a big player for BUG decks in general and it is pretty amazing that we have received such a tool that was not white. Your early game is so much stronger with this card, because things like Courser of Kruphix and Sylvan Caryatid on their own are not always enough and the irony about them being a good early game for a control deck, is that they are only good until your sweeper tosses them to the wind and a sweeper is what the deck wants.
Kiora is your other enabler for getting Garruk out or miking Nissa for value. This is why I have her count up there with Ashiok. The ability to draw cards is vital and adding lands to stack up into your other cards is what makes her so powerful and it is why I love her so much in Bant - she allows you to come over the top sooner with a Rev, which in our case is Garruk, Apex Predator
The Sideboard has some play to it, mainly some early sweep options for hyper aggressive decks. Unravel the AEther was something I had originally considered, because GB based decks are pretty cold to something like White Weenie with Obelisk of Urd or other convoke tricks, but AEtherspouts changes that aspect quite a bit.
I keep going back and forth between UBG and WBG and I think AEtherspouts is enough to make the decision pretty clear.
Reap Intellect is really a potential card until rotation. I would not simply dismiss it, as it is also good against things like Monsters and Mono Black as well as Control
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 13
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Instants: 11
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Aetherspouts
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reap Intellect
Lands: 24
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Breeding Pool
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Golgari Charm
3 Mistcutter Hydra
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Duress
4 Hornet Nest
@Selith: I like your use of Hornet's Nest. I somewhat dismissed it as a casual card at first glance, but it seems like a powerhouse blocker against the right deck. Could really neuter an aggro plan.
Could some of the nay-voters explain the flaw in this sort of deck? I'd like to know if it's poor individual card choice or a perceived flaw in the entire concept.
Looks good, I would either stick with the Drown in Sorrow plan or the Hornet Nest plan. I know I have been discussing the sweet value you can get out of Hornet Nest in the Junk thread, it has some good applications against both aggressive strategies and midrange strategies, which I feel may just make it better than Drown in Sorrow. You pay a bit more life up front by not being able to just sweep, but the payout is a pretty big thing, especially if you end up just having the option to cast AEtherspouts since your tokens can just start going to work on their own for a turn or two afterwards. I personally would go with the Hornet Nest plan and maybe forgo the Drown in Sorrow plan. This also justifies the inclusion of Golgari Charm a bit more in my opinion.
I personally, was not liking Mistcutter Hydra as I have been having more issues against other midrange decks than I have Control. So I slipped in Extinguish All Hope and Pithing Needle.
If it was possible for this to be some large amount of life by turn 2, I would take this argument a bit more seriously. The maximum damage output is simply not high enough to give a T2 Golgari Charm more value than a T3 Drown in Sorrow I want value out of my cards while maintaining a streamlined 15 on the side, Golgari Charm loses value in the long run and that is pretty important when you are running cards like Sylvan Caryatid as a 2 drop that enables even more value out of a DiS. For me, it is one of the other, and if I have to soak up some extra damage to get more value, then so be it, my life is a resource well spent 2-3 damage for an extra card or two out of my opponents hand is absolutely worth it.
At some point there will need to be a concession that you only need 1 or the other and that there is more to be had with filling those SB slots for other tools. Between Caryatid, Courser, and Spouts, you really only need charm or sorrow. The deck is not dead enough to aggro to really warrant both imo.
If you are on Drown in Sorrow skip charm. If you are on Hornet Nest then skip Drown in Sorrow. I personally will take the Nest plan because it plays well again things like Monsters where Sorrow does not
Also, being that there is A LOT of Walkers in the format right now, would not a singleton of In Garruk's Wake be a mote notable addition then Extinguish All Hope? I mean yes, the cost is HUGE but, in THIS deck its not THAT bad and, I have a feeling that "superfriends" type decks are gonna be a thing for the foreseeable future.
Thoughts?
9 mana is a ton of mana. When I cast Garruk, Apex Predator, it is already difficult enough. I am weary of trying In Garruk's Wake when Extinguish All Hope has a reliable casting cost as it is. If you try it, let me know how good it is. Personally, I do not think there are a whole lot of decks that are jamming multiple planeswalkers, so I do not entirely see the need for it at this point in time.
Thoughts?
I think the focus really needs to be more on dealing with other midrange matches more than aggro or control, at least for me anyways.
Evolving Wilds
Here it is:
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 13
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Instants: 11
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Aetherspouts
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reap Intellect
Lands: 24
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Breeding Pool
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Golgari Charm
1 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Duress
4 Hornet Nest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Extinguish All Hope
2 Turn to Frog
2 Nylea's Disciple
Thoughts?
The main looks good to me. I know I need to adjust my mana base a bit more before I am happy with it. I run 2 fewer blue sources than you - which it looks like we both just ported over the Junk Walkers mana base I posted over there, which I think is solid as far as basics go. With Nissa having a +1 to make a 4/4, I do not think we actually need to ever ultimate her.
I think the lists are just going to have to start the waiting game as well, so see what actually does not develop and what is just smoke in terms of what other decks rise or fall after the release of M15.
I feel like Pithing Needle is awkward. I'm running three distinct planeswalkers, and you're running five. That's a pretty big potential for friendly fire, and Pithing Needle isn't needed for much else besides Aetherling.
You already have the Hornet Nests vs. Aggro, is Nylea's Disciple really necessary? Caryatids plus Coursers are already naturally strong in that regard.
Maindeck Reap seems greedy. It's totally dead against fast decks. I'd rather run two in the board.
I see what you are saying about the Nylea's Disciple, it is a little much. That said, do you have any suggestions as to what you would replace the vacancies from the 1x Pithing Needle, 2x Turn to Frog, and 2x Nylea's Disciple?