I have been toying around with the idea of a BUG control deck for a minute now -- and -- now that Garruk, Apex Predator is here I believe it could work. The whole idea of the deck is pretty self explanatory (imo) at first glance however, being that we all live in reality, chances are i'm wrong and its not that great 8P Anyway, i'd appreciate any type of feedback (bad or good) because in the end thats what we are all here for right?
------edit---------
Made some changes based on ur suggestions -- Jace is in 8D
-------edit#2----------
After reading up on a fellow forum members ... forum ... Kamahl, the Fallen, I came to a few realizations. One, being I was freaking blind for not seeing some of the things he suggested. All and all, I think the above changes push this deck into overdrive! Nissa, Worldwaker and Whelming Wave work great together in the deck (which was in DIRE need of a board sweeper). The only question im left with no is three Nissa, Worldwaker or three Kiora, the Crashing Wave in the deck 8P
You don't really need the ramp ability of Nissa and you have a lot of non forests but turning lands into 4/4s to block is very good. you really have to think about why you would want lilana... I'd kind of want jaces instead.
Thank you all for your replies! I'll attempt to answer your comments/questions/suggestions in the order in which they appeared.
@Kamahl, the Fallen:
I was torn between the two walkers (the two being) Liliana Vess and Nissa, Worldwaker. The one thing in which tipped me over towards Lilliana is the ability to literally grab X answer when needed. Yes, Nissa's power level is without a doubt up there -- maybe i'll try her out a little more. I do appreciate your insight (love your articles) so I will indeed conduct some testing based on your POV.
@Narvuntien:
(1)
I really was not "trying" to make a block deck when I started this deck -- actually -- I was trying to build a post RtR rotation BUG. As time went on (hours really) I started messing around and thought maybe a BUG walkers deck using the same type of formula as my BANT deck (PROPS to Kamahl for much of the deck) and kinda went with that. Yes, I realize that (debating any other Aetherling type creatures being dropped) that is the next "best" for this type of deck and will switch to that upon RtR rotation most likely.
(2)
Yes, I decided not to go with ANY Jace's (which seems REALLY odd I know) but with all the card draw/deck manipulation/scry in the deck I rarely seem to have issues finding the cards and or lands I need. Oh, and ass for Silence the Believers ... I am REALLY just not that much of a fan of the card -- YES -- in block its solid but outside of that its "not cost effective" in my POV atm.
Here's a version I would like to try when Ravnica rotates out. Obviously this is a rough sketch until the rest of M15 and Khans comes out but it looks good.
Thanks for the reply! Thats a really cool deck-list you have there. I (for whatever reason) was not even considering the pain lands POST rotation. The only issue I have with Nissa in the deck (which is why I had not included her) was mainly because it feels (to me) that her 2nd ability is just literally going to waste. I mean yes, I understand and acknowledge that in this deck one is mainly unitizing her +1 and Ult (which is what it is really) which isn't bad by any means. I'd like to know how you are doing with this build in the future 8D
Yea, Nissa can be replaced if there is something better in the next set but the only reason for her is the first plus ability for defense. And the future of the deck it depends on the next set, but it looks good.
I hate divination and dissolve.. they just don't work well together you have to decide if you are drawing cards or countering things you can't do both.
I prefer Font of fortunes.. you have a lot of 3 drops and not so many 2 drops, put it into play and use it later when you need the cards and have free mana.
Dissolve isn't something I'm going to be using early in the game most of the time. It's usually for later turns to counter walkers or large creatures that are hard to deal with which is why there are only 2 in the deck. As for Divination, it's more mana efficient than Font of Fortune and it's never really competing with Dissolve because you don't want to waste a Dissolve early.
I took out the Mutavault in place of two more forests. My reasoning is that most/of not all my lands will be creatures anyway, and having some extra forests for Nissa isn't a bad thing.
Barring any mill strategy nuances Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver I think dropping her in place of Jace, Architect of Thought is a better well-rounded idea in the end. I also thought about it (being that I dropped two AoT's in there) that a singleton of Jace, Memory Adept over Aetherling might suit me better vs control strategies -- thoughts?
Barring any mill strategy nuances Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver I think dropping her in place of Jace, Architect of Thought is a better well-rounded idea in the end. I also thought about it (being that I dropped two AoT's in there) that a singleton of Jace, Memory Adept over Aetherling might suit me better vs control strategies -- thoughts?
I would not dispose of Ashiok so easily. He allows you to curve out in such a powerful way as well as divert attacks quite well.
Is a pretty strong curve against even some of the fast aggro decks of the format and your follow ups being Kiora, the Crashing Wave and Nissa, Worldwaker are pretty strong as well.
The real heart of the issue, is the lack of recovery options the deck has. Whelming Wave could be enough, I am not entirely sure though.
Yea, I really did/do enjoy that curve. The only issues is card draw -- because -- admittedly I use Kiora for her -1 prolly 7/10 times. As for Whelming wave, yea, I feel you on that as well. The only real issue is that its the only (on curve) "mass removal" thats around (currently). I mean yes, there is like about what ... 4-5 other options out there for "recovery," its just they all 6+.
I don't think that card draw is too much of an issue. This is really what Kiora is for anyways. Even in Bant Control (list in sig) it is the main ability I use unless there is a random and lonely creature on the field. It is not only drawing a card, but ramping you into your removal or Garruk if he is something we can afford to play.
I hate divination and dissolve.. they just don't work well together you have to decide if you are drawing cards or countering things you can't do both.
I prefer Font of fortunes.. you have a lot of 3 drops and not so many 2 drops, put it into play and use it later when you need the cards and have free mana.
How many times are you going to have two free mana later but not three free mana? I don't think it's anywhere near often enough to be worth needing 4 free mana if you have an actual 2 drop and giving up information when you could have a mystery card.
I think in this deck the font is not needed... I even think that you could just sideboard in the counters, since you wont need them mainboard, are they just for sphinx's rev?. Your goal is to overload hero's downfall with planeswalkers. what card are we so scared of that we need that counter? Also playing a double green card a double black and a double blue spell at 3 cmc is unlikely to work.
If your deck is 4 dissolve + 2 other counterspell then diviation is really bad and I'd prefer font. Font allows you to leave the counter up and then draw the card end of turn. By the time your hand is empty and you top deck it you will have more than enough mana to use it 3 or 4 is unlikely to matter. What I mean by 2 free mana is that its on the field already, we are trying to play the game in the endstep. If they use removal on it for some reason thats great for you, thats enchantment hate not going at your courser. Furthermore it works really well with scry.. particularly off Prognostic Sphinx. you leave a counter on your deck they can't thoughtsieze it and you get them with it. Admitedly underworld connections has similar interactions but it being 3 mana and your card is shown with courser. you could also really want a land off courser but its not on the top so it cost 2 instead of three to dig deeper. The question is what are you doing turn two as opposed to turn three.
But the point is moot.. since Jace and kiora are the card draw in this deck.. and I am ok with that with cataytid you should be able to get you to 4 mana without help.. which is what we are worried about.
Really have no clue how this deck will work until I proxy it out, but it looks like a lot of fun on paper. I've playtested some with Nissa and she has been absolutely insane. I opted with Guildpact over AOT for the combo of card draw and removal in one.
I couldn't say which is better. I don't like Dissolve in this list, and I'm running a little more removal. I think Aetherspouts is going to rock in this sort of deck, and it seems much more effective than Gaze of Granite.
I also put serious effort into maximizing my Forest count for Nissa's benefit. Your list only runs 6 forests, while mine has 11. That's why I'm avoiding the new Painlands. Not sure what your justification is for running Darksteel Citadel either.
Edit: Dunno why Garruk is in the system but Aetherspouts isn't. It's the 3uu instant that puts all attacking creatures on top or bottom of the opponent's library. Safe to cast with dorks on the table, card advantage unlike Aetherize, and quite affordable.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Well, you're certainly going much more walker-heavy than I did. Seems a bit much, as you'll be tapping out on so many turns that holding up countermagic and such will be difficult. The Chain Veil is certainly better in your build than mine, but it still seems a bit win-more to me. If you have multiple Planeswalkers on the table, you're probably winning already, right?
Earlier, I asked why you're running the Darksteel Citadel. I realize now that Nissa's first ability hits any land, not just forests, so that could work. Still, I think the two Painlands aren't a good fit. Why not cut both for a pair of Breeding Pools? Similar net effect, plus Nissa synergy. You did mention in your previous post increasing the forest count, but I still only see six.
Compared to a UW-based control deck, BUG seems to have more specific, narrow answers to threats. Because of this, I really feel that a full playset of Thoughtseize is worth running maindeck. There are simply some cards that ruin us otherwise, especially in your deck that runs so many permanents. If you tap out for a Jace and they answer with Blood Baron of Vizkopa, for example, you could be in trouble. Thoughtseizes gives you that generalized answer, as well as information on when you can safely commit walkers to the board.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers:
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Instants:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dissolve
1 Putrefy
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Syncopate
2 Thoughtseize
3 Gaze of Granite
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Watery Grave
2 Breeding Pool
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Negate
1 AEtherling
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
I have been toying around with the idea of a BUG control deck for a minute now -- and -- now that Garruk, Apex Predator is here I believe it could work. The whole idea of the deck is pretty self explanatory (imo) at first glance however, being that we all live in reality, chances are i'm wrong and its not that great 8P Anyway, i'd appreciate any type of feedback (bad or good) because in the end thats what we are all here for right?
------edit---------
Made some changes based on ur suggestions -- Jace is in 8D
-------edit#2----------
After reading up on a fellow forum members ... forum ... Kamahl, the Fallen, I came to a few realizations. One, being I was freaking blind for not seeing some of the things he suggested. All and all, I think the above changes push this deck into overdrive! Nissa, Worldwaker and Whelming Wave work great together in the deck (which was in DIRE need of a board sweeper). The only question im left with no is three Nissa, Worldwaker or three Kiora, the Crashing Wave in the deck 8P
----edit#3----
Went with three Nissa, Worldwaker and three Kiora, the Crashing Wave for the RAW power!
Prognostic Sphinx is the core of the block deck... as is silence the believers
You don't really need the ramp ability of Nissa and you have a lot of non forests but turning lands into 4/4s to block is very good. you really have to think about why you would want lilana... I'd kind of want jaces instead.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
@Kamahl, the Fallen:
I was torn between the two walkers (the two being) Liliana Vess and Nissa, Worldwaker. The one thing in which tipped me over towards Lilliana is the ability to literally grab X answer when needed. Yes, Nissa's power level is without a doubt up there -- maybe i'll try her out a little more. I do appreciate your insight (love your articles) so I will indeed conduct some testing based on your POV.
@Narvuntien:
(1)
I really was not "trying" to make a block deck when I started this deck -- actually -- I was trying to build a post RtR rotation BUG. As time went on (hours really) I started messing around and thought maybe a BUG walkers deck using the same type of formula as my BANT deck (PROPS to Kamahl for much of the deck) and kinda went with that. Yes, I realize that (debating any other Aetherling type creatures being dropped) that is the next "best" for this type of deck and will switch to that upon RtR rotation most likely.
(2)
Yes, I decided not to go with ANY Jace's (which seems REALLY odd I know) but with all the card draw/deck manipulation/scry in the deck I rarely seem to have issues finding the cards and or lands I need. Oh, and ass for Silence the Believers ... I am REALLY just not that much of a fan of the card -- YES -- in block its solid but outside of that its "not cost effective" in my POV atm.
3x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Jace, the Living Guildpact
3x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2x Nissa, Worldwaker
Creature (10)
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Prognostic Sphinx
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Divination
2x Thoughtseize
Instant (8)
2x Dissolve
4x Hero's Downfall
2x Silence the Believers
Land (26)
3x Island
4x Llanowar Wastes
2x Mana Confluence
1x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Malady
4x Temple of Mystery
4x Yavimaya Coast
Thanks for the reply! Thats a really cool deck-list you have there. I (for whatever reason) was not even considering the pain lands POST rotation. The only issue I have with Nissa in the deck (which is why I had not included her) was mainly because it feels (to me) that her 2nd ability is just literally going to waste. I mean yes, I understand and acknowledge that in this deck one is mainly unitizing her +1 and Ult (which is what it is really) which isn't bad by any means. I'd like to know how you are doing with this build in the future 8D
I prefer Font of fortunes.. you have a lot of 3 drops and not so many 2 drops, put it into play and use it later when you need the cards and have free mana.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I would not dispose of Ashiok so easily. He allows you to curve out in such a powerful way as well as divert attacks quite well.
Turn 1 -- Thoughtseize
Turn 2 -- Abrupt Decay or other removal/counter
Turn 3 -- Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Is a pretty strong curve against even some of the fast aggro decks of the format and your follow ups being Kiora, the Crashing Wave and Nissa, Worldwaker are pretty strong as well.
The real heart of the issue, is the lack of recovery options the deck has. Whelming Wave could be enough, I am not entirely sure though.
Yea, I really did/do enjoy that curve. The only issues is card draw -- because -- admittedly I use Kiora for her -1 prolly 7/10 times. As for Whelming wave, yea, I feel you on that as well. The only real issue is that its the only (on curve) "mass removal" thats around (currently). I mean yes, there is like about what ... 4-5 other options out there for "recovery," its just they all 6+.
Thoughts?
How many times are you going to have two free mana later but not three free mana? I don't think it's anywhere near often enough to be worth needing 4 free mana if you have an actual 2 drop and giving up information when you could have a mystery card.
If your deck is 4 dissolve + 2 other counterspell then diviation is really bad and I'd prefer font. Font allows you to leave the counter up and then draw the card end of turn. By the time your hand is empty and you top deck it you will have more than enough mana to use it 3 or 4 is unlikely to matter. What I mean by 2 free mana is that its on the field already, we are trying to play the game in the endstep. If they use removal on it for some reason thats great for you, thats enchantment hate not going at your courser. Furthermore it works really well with scry.. particularly off Prognostic Sphinx. you leave a counter on your deck they can't thoughtsieze it and you get them with it. Admitedly underworld connections has similar interactions but it being 3 mana and your card is shown with courser. you could also really want a land off courser but its not on the top so it cost 2 instead of three to dig deeper. The question is what are you doing turn two as opposed to turn three.
But the point is moot.. since Jace and kiora are the card draw in this deck.. and I am ok with that with cataytid you should be able to get you to 4 mana without help.. which is what we are worried about.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Watery Grave
4 Breeding Pool
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Mystery
3 Temple of Deceit
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Jace, the Living Guildpact
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
Spells
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
2 Whelming Wave
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dark Betrayal
3 Doom Blade
3 Duress
2 Drown in Sorrow
3 Pharika's Cure
3 Devour Flesh
Really have no clue how this deck will work until I proxy it out, but it looks like a lot of fun on paper. I've playtested some with Nissa and she has been absolutely insane. I opted with Guildpact over AOT for the combo of card draw and removal in one.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 12
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Instants: 13
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dissolve
1 Putrefy
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Aetherspouts
2 Thoughtseize
Artifacts: 1
1 The Chain Veil
Lands: 24
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Watery Grave
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Negate
1 AEtherling
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
Thoughts?
3 Far // Away
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Simic Charm
3 Opportunity
3 Aetherspouts
Sorceries
4 Thoughtseize
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
Lands
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Deceit
4 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I couldn't say which is better. I don't like Dissolve in this list, and I'm running a little more removal. I think Aetherspouts is going to rock in this sort of deck, and it seems much more effective than Gaze of Granite.
I also put serious effort into maximizing my Forest count for Nissa's benefit. Your list only runs 6 forests, while mine has 11. That's why I'm avoiding the new Painlands. Not sure what your justification is for running Darksteel Citadel either.
Edit: Dunno why Garruk is in the system but Aetherspouts isn't. It's the 3uu instant that puts all attacking creatures on top or bottom of the opponent's library. Safe to cast with dorks on the table, card advantage unlike Aetherize, and quite affordable.
PS: Oh and I adjusted the mana, not sure what the hell I was thinking lol! I am now running 10* forests.
Thanks for the heads up 8D
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
Walkers: 12
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Instants: 13
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dissolve
1 Putrefy
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Aetherspouts
2 Thoughtseize
Artifacts: 1
1 The Chain Veil
Lands: 24
2 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Breeding Pool
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Golgari Charm
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Mistcutter Hydra
2 Negate
1 AEtherling
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
Thoughts?
Earlier, I asked why you're running the Darksteel Citadel. I realize now that Nissa's first ability hits any land, not just forests, so that could work. Still, I think the two Painlands aren't a good fit. Why not cut both for a pair of Breeding Pools? Similar net effect, plus Nissa synergy. You did mention in your previous post increasing the forest count, but I still only see six.
Compared to a UW-based control deck, BUG seems to have more specific, narrow answers to threats. Because of this, I really feel that a full playset of Thoughtseize is worth running maindeck. There are simply some cards that ruin us otherwise, especially in your deck that runs so many permanents. If you tap out for a Jace and they answer with Blood Baron of Vizkopa, for example, you could be in trouble. Thoughtseizes gives you that generalized answer, as well as information on when you can safely commit walkers to the board.