All have been real troopers.
Now I know that there is currently a more popular Bant Control that simply uses 3 planeswalkers (Kiora, Jace and Elspeth), but with new Ajani I want to direct this more to a dedicated superfriends.
Now, new Jace not withstanding, this new batch has already given two new VERY playable Planeswalkers that also play well with others. Ajani Steadfast and Nissa, Worldwaker are plenty powerful enough to make room for, and though I will shed a tear when Jace AoT rotates out I still like the batch we have left over. In my deck I've been running Nyx-Fleece Ram and Courser of Kruphix as basically big butts that gain my life so I can set up. They have the upside of turning into pretty effective beaters after a pump or two from Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. I've gotta say I like that Ajani Steadfast can do a smaller version of the same thing while also building up my other Planeswalkers. With Nissa I'd be tempted to run a lot of forest shocklands with her. Playing her for effectively 1 mana is one of her most appealing aspects. In the right case with her you could cast 2 walkers a turn.
This thread is mainly for how people think the new walkers might change the deck build. Who do you think are the most important Walkers in the deck? Who plays the best with them? Any deck lists you've been working with? How viable could speed Ultimate-ing be? I'm interested in ideas. I'm labeling this Bant Planeswalkers because I think they have the best batch for a low creature, Planeswalker focused strategy but maybe you disagree. All superfriends decks are welcome.
The ability for Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Ajani Steadfast to interact with Planeswalkers, is certainly appealing. But they also require you to utilize creatures to help control the flow of the game and Superfriends was a deck that utilized Planeswalkers that were able to control the board on their own and only ran Wall of Omens to cycle through cards while offering protection, they were not something that offered the option of winning the game on their own like the creatures you would include now.
To me, the entire concept of a Superfriends deck is a deck that can win by uniting these powerful cards on the battlefield so they can vanquish your foe. You are very much just moving into a typical Midrange deck when you start adding creatures which is why I prefer to leave out both iterations of Ajani.
Nissa, Worldwaker seems more inline with a Superfriends type Planeswalker. She is able to offer you options for protecting things or assembling a board by letting you untap for extra mana to cast something like Kiora in the same turn. She is a nice tool for putting your board in an advantageous position or simple giving you a means to apply damage by animating your lands and does not need additional creature support to control the board. Nissa is probably the most appealing part of a Superfriends deck if you ask me. Having something like Gideon Jura, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and Nissa, Worldwaker which are planeswalkers that can do things while still having an option to start swinging in damage is really what helps bring it all together because they help you in the event you cannot take another walker ultimate.
With Nissa, Worldwaker and Kiora, the Crashing Wave it is evident that UG are certainly the colors you want to be in. Considering the mana curve and protection options, I personally think B is a more powerful splash option. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is undeniably strong and it gives you access to Supreme Verdict - but having an aggressive curve to roll walkers out on is really god because it starts forcing difficult attacks from aggro or allows you to go crazy on activations against midrange. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver may seem a bit underwhelming, but he is a player in block constructed alongside Kiora and he is cheap enough to survive an aggressive attack out the gate or apply early pressure against control and midrange. His ultimate can be fairly crippling at times as well. The beauty of him is that you can start rolling out things like Kiora to start spreading attacks thin enough to stabilize and while being in U, you have access to Whelming Wave which is a card that can play much better with animated lands from Nissa, Worldsaker than Supreme Verdict does. Speaking of Nissa, she is also good at putting out blockers for Ashiok and Kiora.
There is also the options of Vraska, the Unseen until rotation and the unspoiled Garruk which we can expect to fall into B or G or perhaps even both.
I personally think UBG is going to be the way you want to take a Superfriends deck. It gives you some powerful Planeswalkers on an aggressive curve with plenty of spot removal options, all while staying true to what the original deck was all about - a focus on uniting Planeswalkers on the board to win the game with them.
I think you are also undervauling the impact AEtherspouts brings to non-white control decks, especially those with access to black cards to round out a much stronger spot removal set up. It not only gives you and instant speed sweeper, but it also leads to a huge tempo gain by not onlt tucking the cards away, but also allowing you to keep things like Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kurphix, your 4/4 lands from Nissa, Worldwaker, or even your spoils from Hornet Nest
You may not have a card like Sphinx's Revelation to draw you into things, but you could get access to something like Jace's Ingenuity if you really wanted, and the ability to keep walkers on board is a bit easier than in Bant, which gives you enough repeatable value to compensate for the lack of a power drawing card like Revelation.
AEtherspouts seems way too slow compared to Supreme Verdict. Any aggro deck can kill you before you have the mana to actually cast the card. They could even attack with a few creatures, just enough to keep the pressure on, and not all their board so the card can be countered quite easily unlike Supreme Verdict that wipes everything. In a bant walker I don't see why one or two copies of Ajani, Mentor of Heroes would be bad as it helps you finding planeswalkers in your deck and can even boost Elemental and soldier tokens.
As Hornet Nest, I prefer the 0/4 wall for 1W that gives you life when it is dealt damage. I will try the BUG version but I have some doubts.
I think you might not realize that BUG is very much a tap out deck, you are running more proactive plays like Caryatid - which incidentally makes Spouts just as timely as verdict without having to deal with a casting cost you may or may not meet.
Ajani is bad because you cannot target find and you push the majority of your deck to the bottom and if your tokens are what you want to be boosting, you should already be winning the game or capable of just casting Rev instead.
And you can verdict on turn 3 if you have a caryatid in play. Then again you actually need the card to be in play in order to cast your Spouts faster. If it's not there you might be screwed. And like I said, your opponent could dodge the effect of Spouts by simply attacking with a few creatures.
Fewer attacking creatures makes your Caryatids, coursers and Planeswalkers far more effective. It is not really a situation where they can just win out. Verdict with Caryatid is not a good play, and you must know that, you are clearly arguing for the sake of arguing and not making some valid point concluded from any experiences or fundamental information.
I actually have played verdicts with caryatid and even coursers in play. I've tested Frank Lepore's Bant Control deck a few times and it worked well (only loosing to mono black). It might be awkward to kill our own creatures but at the same time playing potential blockers force the opponent to cast even more spells and thus makes the verdict even more efficient. So be careful before trying to insult me in any way. I'm just trying to debate on the best superfriend list. No need to get rude.
I actually have played verdicts with caryatid and even coursers in play. I've tested Frank Lepore's Bant Control deck a few times and it worked well (only loosing to mono black). It might be awkward to kill our own creatures but at the same time playing potential blockers force the opponent to cast even more spells and thus makes the verdict even more efficient. So be careful before trying to insult me in any way. I'm just trying to debate on the best superfriend list. No need to get rude.
I was referring to non Bant tools you seem to enjoy scrutinizing.
either way G/U/x seems soft on black. those four LBZs in the main will make you cry if you're running coursers and caryatids. supreme verdict has the virtue of removing the option to sit tight and close out with the merchant, at least.
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- Kiora, the Crashing Wave
- Jace, Architect of Thought
- Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
- Elspeth, Sun's Champion
All have been real troopers.Now I know that there is currently a more popular Bant Control that simply uses 3 planeswalkers (Kiora, Jace and Elspeth), but with new Ajani I want to direct this more to a dedicated superfriends.
Now, new Jace not withstanding, this new batch has already given two new VERY playable Planeswalkers that also play well with others.
Ajani Steadfast and Nissa, Worldwaker are plenty powerful enough to make room for, and though I will shed a tear when Jace AoT rotates out I still like the batch we have left over. In my deck I've been running Nyx-Fleece Ram and Courser of Kruphix as basically big butts that gain my life so I can set up. They have the upside of turning into pretty effective beaters after a pump or two from Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. I've gotta say I like that Ajani Steadfast can do a smaller version of the same thing while also building up my other Planeswalkers. With Nissa I'd be tempted to run a lot of forest shocklands with her. Playing her for effectively 1 mana is one of her most appealing aspects. In the right case with her you could cast 2 walkers a turn.
This thread is mainly for how people think the new walkers might change the deck build. Who do you think are the most important Walkers in the deck? Who plays the best with them? Any deck lists you've been working with? How viable could speed Ultimate-ing be? I'm interested in ideas. I'm labeling this Bant Planeswalkers because I think they have the best batch for a low creature, Planeswalker focused strategy but maybe you disagree. All superfriends decks are welcome.
CUBE: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/73964;jsessionid=2DE1F5FF41A24820A137448A2FD5CF8F
I LIKE DRAGONS!
The ability for Ajani, Mentor of Heroes and Ajani Steadfast to interact with Planeswalkers, is certainly appealing. But they also require you to utilize creatures to help control the flow of the game and Superfriends was a deck that utilized Planeswalkers that were able to control the board on their own and only ran Wall of Omens to cycle through cards while offering protection, they were not something that offered the option of winning the game on their own like the creatures you would include now.
To me, the entire concept of a Superfriends deck is a deck that can win by uniting these powerful cards on the battlefield so they can vanquish your foe. You are very much just moving into a typical Midrange deck when you start adding creatures which is why I prefer to leave out both iterations of Ajani.
Nissa, Worldwaker seems more inline with a Superfriends type Planeswalker. She is able to offer you options for protecting things or assembling a board by letting you untap for extra mana to cast something like Kiora in the same turn. She is a nice tool for putting your board in an advantageous position or simple giving you a means to apply damage by animating your lands and does not need additional creature support to control the board. Nissa is probably the most appealing part of a Superfriends deck if you ask me. Having something like Gideon Jura, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and Nissa, Worldwaker which are planeswalkers that can do things while still having an option to start swinging in damage is really what helps bring it all together because they help you in the event you cannot take another walker ultimate.
With Nissa, Worldwaker and Kiora, the Crashing Wave it is evident that UG are certainly the colors you want to be in. Considering the mana curve and protection options, I personally think B is a more powerful splash option. Elspeth, Sun's Champion is undeniably strong and it gives you access to Supreme Verdict - but having an aggressive curve to roll walkers out on is really god because it starts forcing difficult attacks from aggro or allows you to go crazy on activations against midrange. Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver may seem a bit underwhelming, but he is a player in block constructed alongside Kiora and he is cheap enough to survive an aggressive attack out the gate or apply early pressure against control and midrange. His ultimate can be fairly crippling at times as well. The beauty of him is that you can start rolling out things like Kiora to start spreading attacks thin enough to stabilize and while being in U, you have access to Whelming Wave which is a card that can play much better with animated lands from Nissa, Worldsaker than Supreme Verdict does. Speaking of Nissa, she is also good at putting out blockers for Ashiok and Kiora.
There is also the options of Vraska, the Unseen until rotation and the unspoiled Garruk which we can expect to fall into B or G or perhaps even both.
I personally think UBG is going to be the way you want to take a Superfriends deck. It gives you some powerful Planeswalkers on an aggressive curve with plenty of spot removal options, all while staying true to what the original deck was all about - a focus on uniting Planeswalkers on the board to win the game with them.
But then again I haven't tried the BUG walkers yet so I might be surprised by its efficiency.
I think you are also undervauling the impact AEtherspouts brings to non-white control decks, especially those with access to black cards to round out a much stronger spot removal set up. It not only gives you and instant speed sweeper, but it also leads to a huge tempo gain by not onlt tucking the cards away, but also allowing you to keep things like Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kurphix, your 4/4 lands from Nissa, Worldwaker, or even your spoils from Hornet Nest
You may not have a card like Sphinx's Revelation to draw you into things, but you could get access to something like Jace's Ingenuity if you really wanted, and the ability to keep walkers on board is a bit easier than in Bant, which gives you enough repeatable value to compensate for the lack of a power drawing card like Revelation.
As Hornet Nest, I prefer the 0/4 wall for 1W that gives you life when it is dealt damage. I will try the BUG version but I have some doubts.
Ajani is bad because you cannot target find and you push the majority of your deck to the bottom and if your tokens are what you want to be boosting, you should already be winning the game or capable of just casting Rev instead.
I was referring to non Bant tools you seem to enjoy scrutinizing.
liar, liar, pants on fire!