There are a few cards revealed so far that I think are going to greatly change how UWx Control is played. One of them might spell the end of the deck as a tier-1 competitor. That would be Athreos, God of Passage. I believe this card will be able to bring Xathrid Necromancer decks up to tier-1 level, and the deck is going to be a big threat to UWx Control. Depending on who goes first, this card will frequently enter play before it can be countered, leaving only valuable Detention Sphere as a popular maindeck option. This is bad because Detention Sphere is also a safe way of getting rid of the Necromancer. I believe UWx can adapt to meet this threat, but in doing so it may have to devote too much sideboard to that and end up spoiling its effectiveness against other decks.
The other card I'm really interested in was just revealed today: Eidolon of Rhetoric. Could this card fill a sideboard role in shutting down fast aggro decks? It does work nicely with counterspells... counter their first spell and they cannot play any others. But it's pretty vulnerable. It will never live long against burn.
For people who play UWx, how do you feel about the prospects of the deck going into JOU-Standard?
Honestly, I'm on the fence about the direction of UWx. It feels like it really wants to switch to more of a URw or URb control variant, but Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, and Detention Sphere are all too good to give up.
I seriously dont know how Athreos could change the status of UW/x Control.
Here are my thoughts about him that I made in other threads:
"What happens to your deck when it doesnt have Athreos on field then?
The question shouldnt be if this guy is powerful, it should be if your deck as a whole is strong enough to win even without this guy.
That will be the real problem in my opinion. Its the same problem that Mono-Blue has. Without a Thassa, God of the Sea or Master of Waves the deck is just hot garbage.
Relying on having this guy on the field every time just so you dont get destroyed by the removal decks is much to ask. Especially if your deck is aggro."
"Athreos is good but I wouldnt worry about him. There are many ways to deal with that guy, they have to have it in their starting hand or draw it basically every time and it doesnt do anything on its own. They will also have only 1-2 creatures out anyway if they want to play him on turn 3."
Definitely agree. The talk of Athreos being the doom of UWx control sounds a lot like how people were predicting Spirit of the Labyrinth was going to categorically shut down Sphinx's Revelation. That didn't happen.
Most U/W decks run some number of Syncopate which can counter a three drop on the draw, as well as Detention Spheres and recently maindeck Revoke Existences. All in all I doubt anything is really going to change and I doubt U/W will gain anything significant from the set. All I'm really seeing is a lot of hype about a bunch of pretty mediocre cards. The cards I'm most interested in (all the white hatebears) probably won't have a significant impact on standard.
Athreos is probably not going to see play outside of FNMs. The most significant card spoiled so far is Mana Confluence, and what this means for control decks (imo) is that UW becomes the better control deck over Esper, the reason being UW is better against aggro and takes less damage from its lands.
EDIT. This is just theorycrafting, and it might be that I'm completely wrong on this remark.
Uh, sure, I can spell it out - Most competitive UWr control decks (of which there are fewer and fewer) use between 1 and 3 Assemble the Legion. Keranos, God of Storms fits the same CMC slot. Could it be effective at replacing AtL in those decks?
Uh, sure, I can spell it out - Most competitive UWr control decks (of which there are fewer and fewer) use between 1 and 3 Assemble the Legion. Keranos, God of Storms fits the same CMC slot. Could it be effective at replacing AtL in those decks?
Could you link some list, I honestly haven't seen a single UWr list that has performed this whole season.
UWx control is a ravnica block thing and all the relevant cards are from ravnica block. Revelation, D-Sphere, Verdict. Everything else is just details. Aside from Elspeth stealing a bit of thunder from aetherling, this deck is not likely to change until it rotates in its entirety, aside from the odd marginal upgrade. A given removal answer becomes a newer one, but it remains the same essential tool, and fills the same slot in the deck. Doom blade becomes celestial flare. Whoop-de-doodle.
From a building perspective, this deck is dead and it has been since even before the black was taken out. It's just a relic of a bygone season endlessly tweaked for marginal gains by players who love revelation.
For this reason, my opinion is that the entire Theros block is largely meaningless for this deck.
UWx control is a ravnica block thing and all the relevant cards are from ravnica block. Revelation, D-Sphere, Verdict. Everything else is just details. Aside from Elspeth stealing a bit of thunder from aetherling, this deck is not likely to change until it rotates in its entirety, aside from the odd marginal upgrade. A given removal answer becomes a newer one, but it remains the same essential tool, and fills the same slot in the deck. Doom blade becomes celestial flare. Whoop-de-doodle.
From a building perspective, this deck is dead and it has been since even before the black was taken out. It's just a relic of a bygone season endlessly tweaked for marginal gains by players who love revelation.
For this reason, my opinion is that the entire Theros block is largely meaningless for this deck.
That's what I thought. I mean, why would you play UWR. There's no Snapcaster Mage or Restoration Angel and those were the cornerstones of the deck (doing the precious beatdown)
But if it does hang around I wouldn't be surprised if 2xRevoke Existence became a normal maindeck thing (and maybe side in up to a whole 4? not likely but who knows). Lots of enchantments out there that need dealing with.
Font of Fertility gives Bant Control some creatureless ramp. It's not the ideal ramp spell, especially with all those tap lands, but a UWx control deck is the type that minds the least about tapping out at instant speed. I think it's worth it for the blowout T5 Elspeth or the nut-draw T3 Jace/Kiora.
I like those "font" cards simply because we could see a weird constellation enchantment deck pop up.
Which is, I think, what we all imagined when we first heard Theros was going to be "enchantment-themed" (a laughable notion since the block has virtually no real enchantments in it aside from creatures with the word enchantment shoved onto their card type).
Nyx-Fleece Ram and Aegis of the Gods are the best additions for UWx strategies in JOU so far. You can't mainboard either one right now, but the Sheep is an all-star against aggro, and the other guy is at least worth trying against mass discard decks (if not outclassed by something like Dictate of Kruphix).
I do suppose that Font of Fortunes is playable over Divination as well, but it isn't a particularly exciting addition regardless.
No it's not. I think you're mixing up Bant Control and Simic Ramp, a mistake a lot of people seem to make for some reason.
No, I'm thinking Bant control. Simic Ramp uses lots and lots of creatures. That doesn't tie well with Supreme Verdict, which is why creatureless ramp is more favorable to a U/Wg deck.
Bant Control doesn't care about ramp in the slightest, like the other Control decks currently in Standard, it only (really) cares about 2 things: Card advantage and answers to threats. Font of Fertility is neither, that's why it will see about as much play as Lay of the Land, namely none.
You're comparing 2 unrelated cards. Lay of the Land provides no mana acceleration. Font of Fertility does.
The only "rampy" cards that Bant Control runs are Sylvan Caryatid, a 2-mana 0/3 Hexproof blocker that also fixes and adds mana and Kiora, the Crashing Wave, a 4-mana planeswalker that can - at least - fog the biggest opposing creature every turn. Both of these cards only see play in Bant Control because they do much more than simply ramp, that's also why you don't see them run Urban Evolution.
Sylvan Caryatid contradicts the Supreme Verdict line of play.
Honestly I think U/W, America and Bant are the ways to go post Nyx. Esper may still exist though it's unlikely it will be the Esper I generally see running thoughtseize, and more likely just a splash for cards like Devour Flesh. JoU seems to favor aggro decks with mass creatures something quite dangerous for control players. Esper can't really get away with thought seize main deck anymore which takes away one of the best reasons to play Esper in the first place and Esper's really only sweeper is Supreme Verdict. (Drown in Sorrow really is too small)
Each of the other control decks U/W, America, and Bant each offer a slightly different playstyle with trade offs, and since all the scry lands have been printed, each deck has access to all the lands the other would have.
U/W: Consistency, which in control is very nice to have and to expect. It also has a lot of experience beneath it's belt show it's consistently a top tier deck in tournaments.
U/W/R: Additional Lifegain sources, Anger of the Gods (Slightly Cheaper sweeper that exiles and can punish the aggro decks for committing early to the board game 1). It also has great sideboard cards such as Stormbreath dragon and Counterflux, helping considerably in control match ups. It has yet to been seen whether Keranos can pull his weight but he has potential also. I feel this may be the best way to go post Nyx as it has the ability to stabilize earlier than other control decks.
U/W/B: Having a win con outside Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Aetherling is nice, and Kiora, the Crashing Wave protects herself and her controller pretty well against midrange decks with her +1. I feel it may come down to how well Kruphix, God of Horizons performs as a gods, as his ability is pretty insane for control decks. Another advantage of Bant decks is that is utterly laughs at a lot of other control decks with sideboard tech such as Miscutter Hydra.
I believe Esper will go deeper into black. With the printing of Banishing Light, Detention Sphere is longer safe preboard in the mirror - making Hero's Downfall the only surefire way to remove planeswalkers, in addition to being a good catch-all.
I also predict more BG decks, meaning more Abrupt Decay, so cards like Detention Sphere and Banishing Light will lose their autoslots in the deck. This means control has to react to most decks having removal for Detention Spheres, which means they can either go full tap-out control, value threat after value threat - or an almost complete draw-go style.
It's hard to formulate an exact control deck without seeing how the meta will shape, however. But going in blind, I'd move into a heavier draw-go build of Esper, removing Detention Spheres and replacing them with Hero's Downfall, as well as a singleton Deicide instead of the singleton Revoke Existence I was previously running, as there's really nothing you miss out on by switching over.
Edit: In conclusion, I assume that UWx will turn into a midrangy control topped off by Revelation by branching into other colors, as well as a near permanentless draw-go deck in Esper and straight-UW colours.
Athreos? Last I checked, UWx is still packing 4 Detention Spheres and Deicide is borderline MB material.
From what I can see, UWx control didn't actually need anything and just so happened to get a ridiculous instant speed removal spell that simply bypasses the need for Banishing Light in the MB if at all. The cards UWx cares about most can now be answered at instant speed and the number of targets is increasing with the introduction of this set.
Who needs new cards when all the toys for every other deck are allowing you to MB incredible cards that were once SB slots?
Nobody really seems worried about stuff happening with Athreos and other new aggro cards.
Do know however that while UW is probably the most consistent and best deck of the whole standard, it never truly dominated. JOU is going to power up every single two colour aggro strategy with Mana confluence and put some new decks into the limelight like BW Humans.
It has already been said that THS block cards offer next to nothing to UWx control, aside from sideboard cards, while the aggro decks all will get marginally stronger. That means that I could see at least the esper version getting eaten by the God of Passage or mono-red.
Honestly, I think Wizards realized if they printed any more control staples it would really give U/W/x control too much value with their cards. They gave us one of the best draw cards, and one of the best sweepers(some people don't like the can't be countered though, makes things easier though) in the last set. They even gave us a win con that dodges everything except for Pithing needle. They did give us a few spells we needed though to deal with the meta of the current set, which is all we really needed.
I do agree with you, and a lot of other control players agree, that Esper is no longer the way to go with Nyx coming out. The lifeloss is too rough early game when we have cards that will deal with everything in the set just fine (D-sphere, Deicide). If anything Esper will be the U/W control shell with a few spot removal cards(Devour flesh is really quite good in the meta, bypasses White protection and Naya Hexproof).
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The other card I'm really interested in was just revealed today: Eidolon of Rhetoric. Could this card fill a sideboard role in shutting down fast aggro decks? It does work nicely with counterspells... counter their first spell and they cannot play any others. But it's pretty vulnerable. It will never live long against burn.
For people who play UWx, how do you feel about the prospects of the deck going into JOU-Standard?
At the same time, Keranos, God of Storms, Temple of Epiphany, Kiora's Dismissal, and Battlefield Thaumaturge all point to a resurgent UR. Hell, my favorite spoiled card so far is Sigiled Starfish.
Anyways, just my 2 cents. I really have no idea.
Here are my thoughts about him that I made in other threads:
"What happens to your deck when it doesnt have Athreos on field then?
The question shouldnt be if this guy is powerful, it should be if your deck as a whole is strong enough to win even without this guy.
That will be the real problem in my opinion. Its the same problem that Mono-Blue has. Without a Thassa, God of the Sea or Master of Waves the deck is just hot garbage.
Relying on having this guy on the field every time just so you dont get destroyed by the removal decks is much to ask. Especially if your deck is aggro."
"Athreos is good but I wouldnt worry about him. There are many ways to deal with that guy, they have to have it in their starting hand or draw it basically every time and it doesnt do anything on its own. They will also have only 1-2 creatures out anyway if they want to play him on turn 3."
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
EDIT. This is just theorycrafting, and it might be that I'm completely wrong on this remark.
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We don't have a uwr build to begin with. Please rephrase.
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I'm skeptical about Keranos. Assemble the Legion provides blockers and kills relatively quickly.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
Could you link some list, I honestly haven't seen a single UWr list that has performed this whole season.
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From a building perspective, this deck is dead and it has been since even before the black was taken out. It's just a relic of a bygone season endlessly tweaked for marginal gains by players who love revelation.
For this reason, my opinion is that the entire Theros block is largely meaningless for this deck.
That's what I thought. I mean, why would you play UWR. There's no Snapcaster Mage or Restoration Angel and those were the cornerstones of the deck (doing the precious beatdown)
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But if it does hang around I wouldn't be surprised if 2xRevoke Existence became a normal maindeck thing (and maybe side in up to a whole 4? not likely but who knows). Lots of enchantments out there that need dealing with.
Which is, I think, what we all imagined when we first heard Theros was going to be "enchantment-themed" (a laughable notion since the block has virtually no real enchantments in it aside from creatures with the word enchantment shoved onto their card type).
I do suppose that Font of Fortunes is playable over Divination as well, but it isn't a particularly exciting addition regardless.
You're comparing 2 unrelated cards. Lay of the Land provides no mana acceleration. Font of Fertility does.
Sylvan Caryatid contradicts the Supreme Verdict line of play.
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Each of the other control decks U/W, America, and Bant each offer a slightly different playstyle with trade offs, and since all the scry lands have been printed, each deck has access to all the lands the other would have.
U/W: Consistency, which in control is very nice to have and to expect. It also has a lot of experience beneath it's belt show it's consistently a top tier deck in tournaments.
U/W/R: Additional Lifegain sources, Anger of the Gods (Slightly Cheaper sweeper that exiles and can punish the aggro decks for committing early to the board game 1). It also has great sideboard cards such as Stormbreath dragon and Counterflux, helping considerably in control match ups. It has yet to been seen whether Keranos can pull his weight but he has potential also. I feel this may be the best way to go post Nyx as it has the ability to stabilize earlier than other control decks.
U/W/B: Having a win con outside Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Aetherling is nice, and Kiora, the Crashing Wave protects herself and her controller pretty well against midrange decks with her +1. I feel it may come down to how well Kruphix, God of Horizons performs as a gods, as his ability is pretty insane for control decks. Another advantage of Bant decks is that is utterly laughs at a lot of other control decks with sideboard tech such as Miscutter Hydra.
I also predict more BG decks, meaning more Abrupt Decay, so cards like Detention Sphere and Banishing Light will lose their autoslots in the deck. This means control has to react to most decks having removal for Detention Spheres, which means they can either go full tap-out control, value threat after value threat - or an almost complete draw-go style.
It's hard to formulate an exact control deck without seeing how the meta will shape, however. But going in blind, I'd move into a heavier draw-go build of Esper, removing Detention Spheres and replacing them with Hero's Downfall, as well as a singleton Deicide instead of the singleton Revoke Existence I was previously running, as there's really nothing you miss out on by switching over.
Edit: In conclusion, I assume that UWx will turn into a midrangy control topped off by Revelation by branching into other colors, as well as a near permanentless draw-go deck in Esper and straight-UW colours.
From what I can see, UWx control didn't actually need anything and just so happened to get a ridiculous instant speed removal spell that simply bypasses the need for Banishing Light in the MB if at all. The cards UWx cares about most can now be answered at instant speed and the number of targets is increasing with the introduction of this set.
Who needs new cards when all the toys for every other deck are allowing you to MB incredible cards that were once SB slots?
Honestly, I think Wizards realized if they printed any more control staples it would really give U/W/x control too much value with their cards. They gave us one of the best draw cards, and one of the best sweepers(some people don't like the can't be countered though, makes things easier though) in the last set. They even gave us a win con that dodges everything except for Pithing needle. They did give us a few spells we needed though to deal with the meta of the current set, which is all we really needed.
I do agree with you, and a lot of other control players agree, that Esper is no longer the way to go with Nyx coming out. The lifeloss is too rough early game when we have cards that will deal with everything in the set just fine (D-sphere, Deicide). If anything Esper will be the U/W control shell with a few spot removal cards(Devour flesh is really quite good in the meta, bypasses White protection and Naya Hexproof).