cackler/tormented hero
pain seer/thrillkill assassin
herald of torment/master of feast
d-demon
Just a low-curve aggro/midrange happy-medium with a bit of removal.
Would you play Thoughtseize MB? Or would it be unnecessary. Freaking Thoughtseize... With every deck I try to build, my mind goes to it automatically. I was building an Izzet Spellheart Chimera deck, and then I thought, "oh, but Grixis Chimera with Thoughtseize!"
Personally I wouldn't bother with thoughtseize in a go-for-the-throat kind of build like this. I'd opt for trying to kill them before they set their strategy up rather than disrupting their strategy. I think Bile Blight is kinda better than thoughtseize here because it helps you punch through damage, trade, whatever. And if the cackler and tormented hero aren't enough for the 1-slot, I'd chuck in the new minotaur brawler guy. Plus thoughtseize is prohibitively expensive. I wouldn't get it unless it was critical to my build, in any situation.
Personally I wouldn't bother with thoughtseize in a go-for-the-throat kind of build like this. I'd opt for trying to kill them before they set their strategy up rather than disrupting their strategy. I think Bile Blight is kinda better than thoughtseize here because it helps you punch through damage, trade, whatever. And if the cackler and tormented hero aren't enough for the 1-slot, I'd chuck in the new minotaur brawler guy. Plus thoughtseize is prohibitively expensive. I wouldn't get it unless it was critical to my build, in any situation.
That's just me though.
Makes perfect sense and I agree. I KNOW it's not an aggro card and it doesn't do what you want, but the darn thing's been in my subconscious since the first time it was in standard. Must...resist...urge.
it's arguable that fatty demon makes thoughtseize obviously less good, but i would definitely play it in my build. no room for answers to multiple problems, so just 4x the best answer, you know?
i actually think 22 land + 30 creatures + 4x thoughtseize + 4x hero's downfall might be pretty strong. i like cards that ignore text boxes.
off topic, but is gnarled scarhide just better than tormented hero now? tormented hero takes to herald of torment better, but gnarled scarhide has the bonus of stopping your opponents from blocking starting at turn 4- which can be pretty clutch when 5/5 flyers are on board starting turn 3.
Mono Black aggro is best when it has access to disruption and an aggressive clock.
I would imagine that Cackler is probably not well suited here. With him, Hero, Thoughtseize, and Scarhide the deck would be bogged down by 1 cmc cards. Plus, Tormented Hero with bestowing creatures is better anyways. Cackler as a 1/1 late game is awful (leash of shame...) were as a bestowed creature plays nicely around wraths.
Black has to many good three drops, not a bad thing, but, what black really needs is a good 2 drop Pain Seer doesn't cut it just feels the space. Thoughtseize and spot removal is what make MBA better than White Weenie.
Black doesn't "really need" anything TBH. They could not print a single black card in the next block and we'd still be seeing people playing black post-rotation just with what's already out there in theros block. It's quite pushed compared to the other colours in standard. I don't think it's overpowered by any means, but it's pretty undeniably the best colour right now in terms of relative card power level.
What I would like to see is for them to push the other 4 colours up to the level of black so we could really see some upheaval in the meta. White's starting to get there.
Black has to many good three drops, not a bad thing, but, what black really needs is a good 2 drop Pain Seer doesn't cut it just feels the space. Thoughtseize and spot removal is what make MBA better than White Weenie.
I think Agent of the Fates is the first 3 drop to go. He's just far too outclassed. What about thrill-kill assassin for the two drop slot? I've always had a lot of success with the card.
There are two completely different builds- suicide black and monoblack aggro. Redkid's list is pretty close to suicide black, but runs a fair amount of control. A version that curves slightly higher into Master of the Feasts and Desecration Demon is also an option, and doesn't stall out so hard against Caryatids, Brimaz, etc. It would be really hard for me to play a monoblack deck where the overall goal is turning dudes sideways without including Master of Feasts.
What do you guys think about throwing in mana conflux and blood crypt for a red splash? We get some really solid two drops to fill out the curve proper and the life loss is irrelevant. Just imagine how horrifying Redkid's list would be if it had 4x madcap skills, or firefist striker?
Yes he is incredibly cool. This is what Mark Rosewater calls "lenticular design." So many hidden effects and weird synergies - not the least of which that he begs to be blocked at measly 1/1 with that ability, so he's an amazingly juicy target for a battle trick. Plus the bestow is fabulous here - relevant at both costs, and even if he didn't have it he would be good. That's when bestow is at its best.
this is looking pretty solid. i tend to use 4 hero's downfall despite the mana requirements, but i may change that habit. only other real difference is duress in the sideboard, but that's because i don't own lifebane zombies.
I'd like one more suicide creature, like a 2/2 for BB and both player lose 2 life when he drops. Could possibly be really good along with Spiteful Returned.
Pain Seer is worth it. He provides us with cards once he starts attacking. He's another 2 powered creature for cheap and let's us circumvent the card disadvantage we will get once Master hits. Everything in the deck is very cheap, so the life loss won't be that bad.
EDIT: On my deck--I made take out Erebos for Duress, but he is very easy to turn on here and the life gain prevention stops Blood Baron from completely wrecking our *****. He's a bit high for the deck, but I think he can be good here.
Somehow, I get the idea that circumventing card disadvantage from master of the feast by drawing cards is pointless. What you want to do is circumvent it by making the opponent's life 0.
I'm not sure about this guy. We had this effect before. While they were playable 95-98 they got outclassed and were deemed too risky to play. Even though this guy is super cheap allowing your opponent out draw you is probably a very bad idea.
This guy just has to be on the table for your opponent to draw a card. I think this is a sideboard card at best against some decks where their removal is pretty narrow.
I'm not sure about this guy. We had this effect before. While they were playable 95-98 they got outclassed and were deemed too risky to play. Even though this guy is super cheap allowing your opponent out draw you is probably a very bad idea.
This guy just has to be on the table for your opponent to draw a card. I think this is a sideboard card at best against some decks where their removal is pretty narrow.
Well, first things first, this guy will not be often outclassed. On curve, he'll never be outclassed. This lessens the risk you mention.
There are two other factors that combine to further mitigate risk. One, they get the cards on YOUR turn. Two, you're playing BLACK. That means in many cases- particularly if you build with the goal in mind- you can strip out cards before they get a chance to use them. Unless they draw straight bombs on curve, there's a good chance you'll come out ahead considering you have a 5/5 flyer on board. The other upside of black? Super efficient removal. So if you do allow them to draw into efficient blockers there is, again, a good chance you can remove that obstacle as well.
You have valid points, for sure, but I'm still thinking this guy is super dangerous.
Would you play Thoughtseize MB? Or would it be unnecessary. Freaking Thoughtseize... With every deck I try to build, my mind goes to it automatically. I was building an Izzet Spellheart Chimera deck, and then I thought, "oh, but Grixis Chimera with Thoughtseize!"
That's just me though.
Makes perfect sense and I agree. I KNOW it's not an aggro card and it doesn't do what you want, but the darn thing's been in my subconscious since the first time it was in standard. Must...resist...urge.
i actually think 22 land + 30 creatures + 4x thoughtseize + 4x hero's downfall might be pretty strong. i like cards that ignore text boxes.
off topic, but is gnarled scarhide just better than tormented hero now? tormented hero takes to herald of torment better, but gnarled scarhide has the bonus of stopping your opponents from blocking starting at turn 4- which can be pretty clutch when 5/5 flyers are on board starting turn 3.
I would imagine that Cackler is probably not well suited here. With him, Hero, Thoughtseize, and Scarhide the deck would be bogged down by 1 cmc cards. Plus, Tormented Hero with bestowing creatures is better anyways. Cackler as a 1/1 late game is awful (leash of shame...) were as a bestowed creature plays nicely around wraths.
I would start off with...
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Pain Seer
4 Master of the Feast
4 Herald of Torment
4 Mogis's Marauder
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Spiteful Returned
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
Maybe even some nonzero amount of Pack Rat.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
What I would like to see is for them to push the other 4 colours up to the level of black so we could really see some upheaval in the meta. White's starting to get there.
I think Agent of the Fates is the first 3 drop to go. He's just far too outclassed. What about thrill-kill assassin for the two drop slot? I've always had a lot of success with the card.
There are two completely different builds- suicide black and monoblack aggro. Redkid's list is pretty close to suicide black, but runs a fair amount of control. A version that curves slightly higher into Master of the Feasts and Desecration Demon is also an option, and doesn't stall out so hard against Caryatids, Brimaz, etc. It would be really hard for me to play a monoblack deck where the overall goal is turning dudes sideways without including Master of Feasts.
What do you guys think about throwing in mana conflux and blood crypt for a red splash? We get some really solid two drops to fill out the curve proper and the life loss is irrelevant. Just imagine how horrifying Redkid's list would be if it had 4x madcap skills, or firefist striker?
If I was playing in a Journey Legal tournament, I'd play this:
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Pain Seer
3 Spiteful Returned
3 Lifebane Zombie
4 Mogis's Marauder
4 Master of the Feast
4 Herald of Torment
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Ultimate Price
4 Mutavault
18 Swamp
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Gift of Orzhova
3 Pack Rat
1 Hero's Downfall
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Yes he is incredibly cool. This is what Mark Rosewater calls "lenticular design." So many hidden effects and weird synergies - not the least of which that he begs to be blocked at measly 1/1 with that ability, so he's an amazingly juicy target for a battle trick. Plus the bestow is fabulous here - relevant at both costs, and even if he didn't have it he would be good. That's when bestow is at its best.
I'm leaning:
4x Gnarled Scarhide
4x Pain seer
4x spiteful returned
2x thrill-kill assassin
2x pack rat
3x Mogis's Marauder
3x Herald of Torment
3x Master of the Feast
2x Desecration demon
3x Bile Blight
4x mutavault
19x swamp
this is looking pretty solid. i tend to use 4 hero's downfall despite the mana requirements, but i may change that habit. only other real difference is duress in the sideboard, but that's because i don't own lifebane zombies.
4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Spiteful Returned
3 Herald Of Torment
4 Master Of The Feast
2 Desecration Demon
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Bile Blight
3 Mutavault
20 Swamp
EDIT: On my deck--I made take out Erebos for Duress, but he is very easy to turn on here and the life gain prevention stops Blood Baron from completely wrecking our *****. He's a bit high for the deck, but I think he can be good here.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
This guy just has to be on the table for your opponent to draw a card. I think this is a sideboard card at best against some decks where their removal is pretty narrow.
Well, first things first, this guy will not be often outclassed. On curve, he'll never be outclassed. This lessens the risk you mention.
There are two other factors that combine to further mitigate risk. One, they get the cards on YOUR turn. Two, you're playing BLACK. That means in many cases- particularly if you build with the goal in mind- you can strip out cards before they get a chance to use them. Unless they draw straight bombs on curve, there's a good chance you'll come out ahead considering you have a 5/5 flyer on board. The other upside of black? Super efficient removal. So if you do allow them to draw into efficient blockers there is, again, a good chance you can remove that obstacle as well.
You have valid points, for sure, but I'm still thinking this guy is super dangerous.
4 Master of the Feast
3 Mogis's Marauder
4 Pack Rat
4 Pain Seer
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spiteful Returned
4 Tormented Hero
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mutavault
18 Swamp
Seriously, it's really hard to be more aggressive than this.
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0