Have you ever gotten annoyed at having too many Negates/Aetherspouts in hand? I guess that's a bit meta-dependent, and that they're both effective vs. midrange. I really need to get to an FNM (I've been working nights for the past few weeks...) or get Cockatrice up, because I have no idea how relevant Negate generally is in the current meta. I'm going to start off playing 2 copies and see how that goes.
Ever wish you had more card draw in this list? I've been trying out 2x Divination along with my playset of Digs and 1 Prerogative, and I'm really liking this configuration so far. I also dropped my Anticipate count to 3 - I don't like the card in practice as much as I do in theory. It's nice to have when I'm chaining instant draw spells together to find a counterspell late game, or when I need to filter my draws early on - but I've often found myself wishing it was a draw spell as opposed to a filter/cantrip.
Against burn - Snipes any token producing card they have and snipes Stoke the Flames. Its an all-star here in my opinion.
Against Abzan - Probably at its worst, but it can still hit Sorin/Elspeth and it counters Downfall. Also, countering thoughtseize with a Negate isn't the worst thing in the world if you feel like there aren't that many great targets for it. I usually board out Negate for Stroke in this matchup, but I wouldn't call the card dead.
Temur - Allows you to fight back against Stubborn Denial. For that reason alone I keep them in the main deck. Its the main reason I'm able to win this matchup.
Esper - An absolute house. This is the card that allows you to win counterwars against Esper without losing tempo. They play Ojutai, you respond with Nullify, they Scorn your Nullify, you Negate their Scorn. Also if you're in the position where you're winning (You have an active Ugin and you're bolting heir face) you can snipe their Dig Through Times to stay ahead.
I've never ever felt like Negate was a dead card and I usually feel Disdainful Stroke ends up being dead more than Negate does (hence why Stroke is in the board).
On Divination, I just think turn 3 is too critical to tap out to play it. I want to counter their turn 3 play so I'm not terribly behind on board, then while they're tapped out drop a turn 4 Vault and set up the board the way I want it. 4 Digs + 2 Prerogative is enough with a Cruise in the board to better deal with Discard heavy decks.
Hmm. I don't think Divination is a turn 3 play, ever - it's a turn 5 or 6 play at the earliest, which is why I'd run 1 or 2 instead of 3 or 4. I think its advantages over a second copy of Prerogative and/or a fourth Anticipate are debatable, but it's pretty obvious that turn 3 is a terrible turn on which to drop it against most of the current meta. I think it's reasonable to run Divination if pain fetches aren't viable (which is my situation, for financial reasons): it provides an infinitesimally greater amount of early-ish Dig fodder than an extra Prerogative would. This is an extremely minor point in its favor, but boosting Dig's power is essential to this deck's operation.
Dig can be almost as powerful as an instant-speed tutor, given reliable fodder and a proper suite of counterspells/win-cons to choose from: it's definitely where both budget and no-expense-spared versions of this deck may be able to derive viability from. I was so excited when I saw it and PLA in the same block, along with a decent set of counterspells to choose from.
With pain fetches thrown into the mix, I think 1 or 2 Treasure Cruise are warranted in your main 60. What's your reasoning for playing 2 Prerogative over Cruise? I understand that we're playing a draw-go deck (and instants are highly valued, as such), but Cruise has so much potential when you're playing 6+ fetches and 4 Anticipate. 1 or 2 mana for 3 cards is something that would happen on a regular basis, I'd think - which would render the argument for Prerogative's instant nature essentially null (don't need an instant when you can keep plenty of mana up after casting your draw spell). Would you consider cutting something else for it, if you're happy with 2 copies of Prerogative?
I suppose you could, but I don't want to push my graveyard too hard with so many Delve spells. You could try a Cruise in the main deck. I just have on in the board to punish all the discard effects Abzan variants run. Sure, take out all your threats so you can run 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Duress and then watch as I just refill my hand anyway with the cards you made me discard! That's the main reason I have a Cruise in the board. It might be worth trying maindeck though.
So, with the list I posted, I find it very, very hard to lose to any BGx midrange deck. Most of them (except for Abzan aggro) play so many taplands and since this deck plays zero you get to set up your defenses on curve more often than not. This enables you to stall out for a long time, with Vault, Aetherspouts until you finally finish them off with Ugin.
It doesn't even take that many wipes to sufficiently grind down an opponent.
I'm just glad Surgical Extraction isn't in Standard, because that would hose what this deck is going for.
Really the only matchup I don't look forward to are the red decks, but I have like 8 sideboard slots devoted to that matchup so its not unwinnable post-board. Game 1 is pretty miserable though.
So, with the list I posted, I find it very, very hard to lose to any BGx midrange deck. Most of them (except for Abzan aggro) play so many taplands and since this deck plays zero you get to set up your defenses on curve more often than not. This enables you to stall out for a long time, with Vault, Aetherspouts until you finally finish them off with Ugin.
It doesn't even take that many wipes to sufficiently grind down an opponent.
I'm just glad Surgical Extraction isn't in Standard, because that would hose what this deck is going for.
Really the only matchup I don't look forward to are the red decks, but I have like 8 sideboard slots devoted to that matchup so its not unwinnable post-board. Game 1 is pretty miserable though.
That's great to hear. I'm debating whether or not main decking Encase is worth it as a result of your red matchup report. Do you think further life gain is needed? Staff of the Mind Magus could be effective, but it comes down a bit late.
I'm still trying to get away from work so I can do some actual testing. My local shop only does standard tournaments at FNM, unfortunately.
Well, Magus gets wiped away by Vault but you're obviously going to board out Vault in that matchup in place of Whelming Wave (as it virtually accomplishes the same thing, killing all the tokens and setting back the red deck's tempo).
But its not really the lifegain that's the issue. Its nice, but the major thing is not getting blown out on tempo in the first 2-3 turns. Red matchups aren't unwinnable, but winning game 1's requires a really powerful curve (Negate/Nullify on turn 2, Dissolve on 3, Dig Through Time on 4 and Aetherspouts on 5). It is a lot better post-board however. Shorecrasher Elemental's big butt does a really good job at making sure you don't die. I'm wondering if a third on the board is worth it.
I finally got a chance to test out MUC against Esper Dragons. I was pleased at the results, to say the least.
Do you enjoy grindy, 1 hour+ long games that revolve around resolving key spells at the right time and are highly punishing of mistakes? Then this matchup is for you!
The list I posted has a slight edge in that it "Goes bigger" than Esper is able to. There's just no way they have the ability to fight through multiple Ugin activations in a long, protracted game. There is the chance of them dropping a turn 5 Ojutai with you not being able to counter it, and if you can't find a Perilous Vault before they untap, then that wouldn't be very good. However, most Esper players wouldn't jam a turn 5 Ojutai in any kind of control mirror match so that's not a huge concern. If you get hit by a turn 4 thoughtseize, the Esper player is most likely trying to find a hole to fit Ojutai into, so if Negate is your only counterspell, use it! In my testing the Esper players assumed I was protecting something even though my hand wasn't really suited to fight a war over Ojutai and was then content to just sit back and hit land drops and find an opening later on. The power of illusion is real.
I think on average, I was able to activate Ugin like, 6 times on average in that mirror match (a few times the full 8!). It gets insanely grindy and every small incremental value is huge.
Its also incredibly boring for anyone else watching, so I wouldn't advise other people to watch that matchup. Also, you are the control deck in that matchup, they are the beatdown deck. Your value lies in that you already know your role, the Esper player does not due to MUC being an unknown quantity. Use that to your advantage.
Post-board, Ashiok is a headache, but its not that much different than the issues UW control has that Reid Duke was piloting before. Honestly, I'd keep in the Negates post-board just to have a way to deal with a t3 Ashiok on the draw. If they do resolve an Ashiok, its not immediately game over, but you do want to be able to resolve a Perilous Vault as fast as you possibly can to get it off the board. Try and force a draw spell like Dig Through Time on their turn to lure out a counterspell so you can resolve the Vault on your turn.
However, as much as Ashiok is a pain for this deck in post-board games, Stratus Dancer out of the board is extremely problematic for them in the midgame. They're likely to board out most of their removal that isn't Downfall and Stratus Dancer taxes whatever removal they do bring in very heavily. Even better, you can live the dream and flip a Dancer in resp to a Dig Through Time while they're digging for counterspells in the middle of a counter war (this actually did happen to me) Stratus Dancer can even be dropped following a turn 3 Ashiok if you need to put a nonzero amount of pressure on it, but that isn't necessarily the route I'd take.
Oh and the singleton Pearl Lake Ancient out of the sideboard is a complete monster in games 2 and 3. After they've boarded out Foul Tongue Invocations and only really have Downfall still in the main, they have an extremely hard time dealing with it.
Its a very grindy and long matchup and I don't recommend anyone actually watch it, but if you enjoy the control mirror its very satisfying to play.
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Ever wish you had more card draw in this list? I've been trying out 2x Divination along with my playset of Digs and 1 Prerogative, and I'm really liking this configuration so far. I also dropped my Anticipate count to 3 - I don't like the card in practice as much as I do in theory. It's nice to have when I'm chaining instant draw spells together to find a counterspell late game, or when I need to filter my draws early on - but I've often found myself wishing it was a draw spell as opposed to a filter/cantrip.
Against burn - Snipes any token producing card they have and snipes Stoke the Flames. Its an all-star here in my opinion.
Against Abzan - Probably at its worst, but it can still hit Sorin/Elspeth and it counters Downfall. Also, countering thoughtseize with a Negate isn't the worst thing in the world if you feel like there aren't that many great targets for it. I usually board out Negate for Stroke in this matchup, but I wouldn't call the card dead.
Temur - Allows you to fight back against Stubborn Denial. For that reason alone I keep them in the main deck. Its the main reason I'm able to win this matchup.
Esper - An absolute house. This is the card that allows you to win counterwars against Esper without losing tempo. They play Ojutai, you respond with Nullify, they Scorn your Nullify, you Negate their Scorn. Also if you're in the position where you're winning (You have an active Ugin and you're bolting heir face) you can snipe their Dig Through Times to stay ahead.
I've never ever felt like Negate was a dead card and I usually feel Disdainful Stroke ends up being dead more than Negate does (hence why Stroke is in the board).
On Divination, I just think turn 3 is too critical to tap out to play it. I want to counter their turn 3 play so I'm not terribly behind on board, then while they're tapped out drop a turn 4 Vault and set up the board the way I want it. 4 Digs + 2 Prerogative is enough with a Cruise in the board to better deal with Discard heavy decks.
Dig can be almost as powerful as an instant-speed tutor, given reliable fodder and a proper suite of counterspells/win-cons to choose from: it's definitely where both budget and no-expense-spared versions of this deck may be able to derive viability from. I was so excited when I saw it and PLA in the same block, along with a decent set of counterspells to choose from.
With pain fetches thrown into the mix, I think 1 or 2 Treasure Cruise are warranted in your main 60. What's your reasoning for playing 2 Prerogative over Cruise? I understand that we're playing a draw-go deck (and instants are highly valued, as such), but Cruise has so much potential when you're playing 6+ fetches and 4 Anticipate. 1 or 2 mana for 3 cards is something that would happen on a regular basis, I'd think - which would render the argument for Prerogative's instant nature essentially null (don't need an instant when you can keep plenty of mana up after casting your draw spell). Would you consider cutting something else for it, if you're happy with 2 copies of Prerogative?
Any other game reports as of yet?
It doesn't even take that many wipes to sufficiently grind down an opponent.
I'm just glad Surgical Extraction isn't in Standard, because that would hose what this deck is going for.
Really the only matchup I don't look forward to are the red decks, but I have like 8 sideboard slots devoted to that matchup so its not unwinnable post-board. Game 1 is pretty miserable though.
That's great to hear. I'm debating whether or not main decking Encase is worth it as a result of your red matchup report. Do you think further life gain is needed? Staff of the Mind Magus could be effective, but it comes down a bit late.
I'm still trying to get away from work so I can do some actual testing. My local shop only does standard tournaments at FNM, unfortunately.
But its not really the lifegain that's the issue. Its nice, but the major thing is not getting blown out on tempo in the first 2-3 turns. Red matchups aren't unwinnable, but winning game 1's requires a really powerful curve (Negate/Nullify on turn 2, Dissolve on 3, Dig Through Time on 4 and Aetherspouts on 5). It is a lot better post-board however. Shorecrasher Elemental's big butt does a really good job at making sure you don't die. I'm wondering if a third on the board is worth it.
Do you enjoy grindy, 1 hour+ long games that revolve around resolving key spells at the right time and are highly punishing of mistakes? Then this matchup is for you!
The list I posted has a slight edge in that it "Goes bigger" than Esper is able to. There's just no way they have the ability to fight through multiple Ugin activations in a long, protracted game. There is the chance of them dropping a turn 5 Ojutai with you not being able to counter it, and if you can't find a Perilous Vault before they untap, then that wouldn't be very good. However, most Esper players wouldn't jam a turn 5 Ojutai in any kind of control mirror match so that's not a huge concern. If you get hit by a turn 4 thoughtseize, the Esper player is most likely trying to find a hole to fit Ojutai into, so if Negate is your only counterspell, use it! In my testing the Esper players assumed I was protecting something even though my hand wasn't really suited to fight a war over Ojutai and was then content to just sit back and hit land drops and find an opening later on. The power of illusion is real.
I think on average, I was able to activate Ugin like, 6 times on average in that mirror match (a few times the full 8!). It gets insanely grindy and every small incremental value is huge.
Its also incredibly boring for anyone else watching, so I wouldn't advise other people to watch that matchup. Also, you are the control deck in that matchup, they are the beatdown deck. Your value lies in that you already know your role, the Esper player does not due to MUC being an unknown quantity. Use that to your advantage.
Post-board, Ashiok is a headache, but its not that much different than the issues UW control has that Reid Duke was piloting before. Honestly, I'd keep in the Negates post-board just to have a way to deal with a t3 Ashiok on the draw. If they do resolve an Ashiok, its not immediately game over, but you do want to be able to resolve a Perilous Vault as fast as you possibly can to get it off the board. Try and force a draw spell like Dig Through Time on their turn to lure out a counterspell so you can resolve the Vault on your turn.
However, as much as Ashiok is a pain for this deck in post-board games, Stratus Dancer out of the board is extremely problematic for them in the midgame. They're likely to board out most of their removal that isn't Downfall and Stratus Dancer taxes whatever removal they do bring in very heavily. Even better, you can live the dream and flip a Dancer in resp to a Dig Through Time while they're digging for counterspells in the middle of a counter war (this actually did happen to me) Stratus Dancer can even be dropped following a turn 3 Ashiok if you need to put a nonzero amount of pressure on it, but that isn't necessarily the route I'd take.
Oh and the singleton Pearl Lake Ancient out of the sideboard is a complete monster in games 2 and 3. After they've boarded out Foul Tongue Invocations and only really have Downfall still in the main, they have an extremely hard time dealing with it.
Its a very grindy and long matchup and I don't recommend anyone actually watch it, but if you enjoy the control mirror its very satisfying to play.