The one I wrote before this thread came up was Kolaghan Dragons, since the deck is R/B and features at least one or more kolaghans. That'd be a good name
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If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Yeah, but its not R.A.D. haha. At least with the current name, anyone who sees it kinda knows what exactly the deck does. I was talking Card choices, matchups, description, decklists with sb guide, that kind of stuff.
[quote from="civilwargoat »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/603693-rakdos-attrition-dragons?comment=34"]Foul Tongue is so important in winning the mono red match, and the dragons match. Flamewake is also key in applying a recurring source of pressure vs the control deck, and has consistently over preformed, this deck would exist without it.
Thanks for the feedback but i don't think cutting flamewakes or foul tongue is reasonable. Nor do i think 2 crux in the main is a must. Please make comments only if you have played with the cards in question or something similar to the list i posted.
Just because you don't like our comments doesn't mean we haven't played with the cards. We have, which is why we're
making recommendations to you. If multiple people are telling you something, chances are it's not unreasonable.[/
quote]
Well since there is no mention of flamewake in thread it appears to be a safe assumption that nobody is testing the card. Additionally decks are being posted with dragon tempest and dragon shaman whatever guy. I understand that thisnot the ccompetitive section but claiming cards are a must have and offering don't play card xXxX because it is going to rotate as validation for inclusion or exclusion is a fallacy. But by all means keep play dragon tempest and not thoughtsieze and claim it as reason for flamewake being bad.
I'm done trying to help this kid. He can go 0-5 at his next FNM. Im justified in not wanting to pay 84 bucks for cards that will lose value in a couple months. Even if they lose 5 bucks in value each, that's a total of 20 bucks. Not worth the time or the cards I own, that I would trade, that are likely to go up because they are standard staples. To be honest, if I had the cards already, they would be in the main board as a 4 of
Only one person said dragon tempest was bad and I actually agreed with him. I even told him that I might end up taking it out anyway. The difference is that it's can deal damage and can't be easily removed. Giving dragons haste is another perk.
Flamewake dies to everything, including any burn spell played, and as it was already mentioned, is only good if your in a winning board state. It's fun to dump a mans to get it back even though it gets chopped up by any flyer in the format. The fact that it must attack each turn makes the card even worse. You can't use him to block.
I already told you that I tried to play him and for all the reasons mentioned above, I took them out. That's why it hasent showed up in any other lists. It's just a terrible card right now.
Crux I should not even have to explain. 5 mana to wipe the board of everything but your dragons is why it has a main deck minimum of 2.
I'm done trying to help this kid. He can go 0-5 at his next FNM. Im justified in not wanting to pay 84 bucks for cards that will lose value in a couple months. Even if they lose 5 bucks in value each, that's a total of 20 bucks. Not worth the time or the cards I own, that I would trade, that are likely to go up because they are standard staples. To be honest, if I had the cards already, they would be in the main board as a 4 of
Only one person said dragon tempest was bad and I actually agreed with him. I even told him that I might end up taking it out anyway. The difference is that it's can deal damage and can't be easily removed. Giving dragons haste is another perk.
Flamewake dies to everything, including any burn spell played, and as it was already mentioned, is only good if your in a winning board state. It's fun to dump a mans to get it back even though it gets chopped up by any flyer in the format. The fact that it must attack each turn makes the card even worse. You can't use him to block.
I already told you that I tried to play him and for all the reasons mentioned above, I took them out. That's why it hasent showed up in any other lists. It's just a terrible card right now.
Crux I should not even have to explain. 5 mana to wipe the board of everything but your dragons is why it has a main deck minimum of 2.
Your advise has been so helpful, consisting of Flamewake dies to removal, it can't block(which is not true you can play it in your second main phase to use as a blocker if need be) and gets blocked by every flyer. Those are mountain moving observations. You know what other commonly played card dies to every removal spell and is blocked my even more cards that Flamewake...Goblin Rabblemaster. By your measure Rabblemaster must be terrible, yet there it is in your list.
You have to examine the context in which the card is used, blindly saying that card x is awesome/terrible without looking at how the card is intended to be used is shortsighted. Clearly Flamewake vs, any dragon is bad for Flamewake, what you should consider is the damage Flamewake deals before the dragon shows up, or the removal spells in your deck to remove their dragon, or that the burn spell targeting Flamewake is now not aimed at your face. But by all means keep testing [card]Dragonlord's Servant[/card, and outpost siege with 8 main deck 5+ CMC cards, and no side board.
So lets assume for a moment that I am a kid, and I want to win my FMN with a r/b dragon control deck. You would advise me to not play with a very powerful meta defining card that has cross format playability because it is going to rotate out of standard in about 5 months. Good thing Thoughtseize is $18-22 and your advise if free.
Just so we are clear I'm not telling you to play thoughtsieze. If you don't want to play the card for whatever reason that's fine, but you're not really going to understand how my list functions unless you try to replicate it. The deck was not made to beat down with flamewake, it's a control deck that leverages spot removal, hand disruption, and draw spells to force the game into a place where your opponent has few good options.
Your list looks like a mashed up version of the old r/w deck pre dragons of tarkir(without the white), with a poor removal suite, situational card advantage, topped with some dragons. Here is some advise, don't play 4 Murderous Cut. The first one makes the second one less effective, but reasonable. Your deck does not fill the graveyard quickly. The reason cut is good is because it allows you to set a line of play where you can play two spells in a turn. Playing the full play set, while presenting you consistently with that opportunity will also consistently make the following copies worse. In addition there will be times when you have cut in your hand and cannot cast it because you cant get to five mana. I can't remember any list that runs 4 cuts without some way to fill the graveyard.
Then again my advise if free 'casue I'm just a kid looking to go 0-5 at the one FMN my mom drives me to each month.
Flamewake does die to removal, like any creature but not all creatures die to any burn spell in the format. You need to learn the difference between "burn" and "removal" because there are a lot of differences between them. Cool you can block with Phoenix for a turn, a turn. 90 percent of that time the block won't even matter. Rabblemaster will at least trade with something, and get some actual use out of him.
Flamewake will deal 2 damage if you play it t3, because other flyers come in t4, and if it doesn't get removed by the countless instants that will take it down. You want to pay 3 to not take some damage? Dude, splash white for deflecting Palm. It's cheaper, and deals that damage back. Magic is for smart players, not idiots.
Dragonlord's server stops aggro, gets me a t3 thunderbreak, and feeds rabblemaster. Outpost siege gets to either net card advantage or deal more damage to players or remove creatures.
I never once said that you should play thoughtseize. I'm not going to pay that much for it. I would love to play them if I already had the card.
My list has actually been proven, placing 2nd at gamesay. And placing top 8 at each FNM I've been too. Your list looks like a flaming pile of ***** that my list took. Cuts actually replace themselfs, how does this deck not add to the graveyard? It's packed with all the removal to fill the graveyard.
Kid, ok back to the little kids conner with all the others kids learning to play.
Trolling/flaming is not allowed according to MTGS rules. -Lugger
This is what i've been testing lately. Been working pretty awesomely against control decks and seems to go 50/50 with aggro. It packs a lotta hate for aggro, but it's a little slow so they have a good window to catch me. Where I'm struggling is GW midrangey (NOT azban, that hasn't really been very tough at all) aggro decks, and whip decks. I've kinda accepted that's gonna be an uphill battle, but any advice on reformulating my removal suite to tune is to the meta better is certainly welcome. Also, the deck is worth it to me just to see ascendancy players frown as they try and loot their deck with waste not out
This is what i've been testing lately. Been working pretty awesomely against control decks and seems to go 50/50 with aggro. It packs a lotta hate for aggro, but it's a little slow so they have a good window to catch me. Where I'm struggling is GW midrangey (NOT azban, that hasn't really been very tough at all) aggro decks, and whip decks. I've kinda accepted that's gonna be an uphill battle, but any advice on reformulating my removal suite to tune is to the meta better is certainly welcome. Also, the deck is worth it to me just to see ascendancy players frown as they try and loot their deck with waste not out
This is a great list, commune with lava seems out of place though.
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If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
people like discarding lands to command. I enjoy punishing them as they flood me with mana and i draw 7 cards at a time the next turn :P. It'a actually performed rather well for me. I like having an instant mana sink too late game.
Flamewake does die to removal, like any creature but not all creatures die to any burn spell in the format. You need to learn the difference between "burn" and "removal" because there are a lot of differences between them. Cool you can block with Phoenix for a turn, a turn. 90 percent of that time the block won't even matter. Rabblemaster will at least trade with something, and get some actual use out of him.
Flamewake will deal 2 damage if you play it t3, because other flyers come in t4, and if it doesn't get removed by the countless instants that will take it down. You want to pay 3 to not take some damage? Dude, splash white for deflecting Palm. It's cheaper, and deals that damage back. Magic is for smart players, not idiots.
Dragonlord's server stops aggro, gets me a t3 thunderbreak, and feeds rabblemaster. Outpost siege gets to either net card advantage or deal more damage to players or remove creatures.
I never once said that you should play thoughtseize. I'm not going to pay that much for it. I would love to play them if I already had the card.
My list has actually been proven, placing 2nd at gamesay. And placing top 8 at each FNM I've been too. Your list looks like a flaming pile of ***** that my list took. Cuts actually replace themselfs, how does this deck not add to the graveyard? It's packed with all the removal to fill the graveyard.
Kid, ok back to the little kids conner with all the others kids learning to play.
Congratulations on your local meta 2nd place gameday finish, without a side board. Surely you grinded through 10+ rounds cutting to a top 8 for two more rounds playing against the best players from over a 300 mile radius. You seem to have a large misunderstanding of the where the format is. Not every deck plays 4CMC flyers. Your like so many other posters in this site making blanket statements about cards with no reasoning behind them other than "my card/deck is good because it's my card/deck, your deck/card sucks because it's your card so your stupid". You have made it crystal clear that you are not capable of offering any thought beyond the obvious.
Yes i understand the difference between removal and burn. that difference is meaningless when the removal spell or burn spell is aimed at your creature...in essence they are both removal spells. But hey thanks for the reminder of the meaningless.
Dragonlord's servant does not stop agro. Mono red goes around/kills it, and Jeskai goes over and around it. Maybe your Game Day event is so advanced that those decks are present. As for boosting your rabblemasters...your rabblemaster having one more power attacking changes exactly nothing. The same spells that kill him before still kill him now, the same creatures that kill him in combat still kill him in combat, perhaps that is why you only play 2 rabblemaster because they don't really synergize with rabblemaster other than they are both goblins. Dragonlord servant has negative snygery with rabblemaster because when you play turn servant you want to play turn 3 Dragon which completely skips over rabblemaster. If playing dragons are on turn 3 is important then i suggest you play g/r dragons and play with elvish mystic so you can play turn 3 dragons. See how that works, constructive criticism. Not snotty baseless statements but then again I'm just a kid saving my lunch money to buy toughtsizes and mowing lawns so mom will drive me to the shop once every 3 months.
I'll explain again why cuts aren't good in multiples because you seem intent on the simple I'll keep it short. Murderous Cut
You have exactly 16 cards in your list that would be in the graveyard be turn 4. Allowing for perfect land drops in your 23 land deck of which nearly a third is made up of 4 CMC card or higher and that is not counting the cuts, you would probably have 1-2 cards usually in your yard and 3 or more at best by turn 4. This means that your cut will most likely cost you 2 or 3 mana and all the cards in your graveyard. So if your following closely will only leave the recently cast cut in your yard for turn 5. So that cut will now cost you 4 mana plus the cut in your yard. Leaving you with one mana left over to cast exactly nothing in your list. Of course your still hitting all your land drops in a 23 land deck.
To be productive here, sell me on Chandra. Where is she good? I've tried her side a few times but she keeps getting the cut due to really a lack of applicable matches. She just hasn't been as good as lili vs control, she's too slow for aggro, and she doesn't actually kill anything against midrange nor do I need a lack of blocking due to the dragons evasion.
I actually kind of like it. Waste Not is an interesting way to take advantage of having 8+ discard effects in the 75. My initial pure gut reaction though is that it's actually better as a sideboard against Control and decks which use looting effects like Monastery Siege, Sultai Charm, or Jeskai Ascendancy. That would leave space to bring cards main that shore up the aggro match up, like the Anger of the Gods. Not clear to me without some practice reps and knowing your meta which configuration is best, or maybe a 2/2 or 3/1 split of each in main/board, so that you can "tune" depending on the matchup.
Waste Not does make me kind of want Sign in Blood in the deck. It's a nice complement to Commune as a way to turn a discarded land into cards for you.
Crater's Claws is okay, though not sure I wouldn't just run a few more Stormbreath Dragon over it. On an empty board they do the same damage for 5 mana, Stormbreath can block multiple creatures (and sometimes even large ones, thanks to pro-white) over turns, and if they sided out removal can do much more damage over time, plus you've got Havens, so it's even recurrable. I just don't see enough synergies in the deck for Claws to make it worth running over hard removal like Price/Downfall or a more persistent threat. Even the minor advantage of getting a discarded land to pump it isn't that great, because you've already spent at least 3 mana just to cast the Command, and it restricts you do doing so at Sorcery speed.
Murderous Cut, I think I'd prefer something that was more reliably castable before turn 4 or so. I'd personally probably go with a Price, but I could see the argument for another Downfall too. I really want 8 fetches and some looting, milling or cantrip type effects before Cut becomes a go to spell. This deck's curve isn't super high, but it's not so low that you're going to reliably have more than 3 cards in your bin by turn 4 or 5.
One thing to consider for sideboard against swarm aggro is Archfiend of Depravity. It keeps decks which rely on lots of manifest, tokens, or just large numbers of mid power creatures down to a reasonable level. Another thing to consider if Whip and Mastery decks prove popular is Erebos, God of the Dead. Hard to remove, shuts off their life gain and gives you another way to spend mana for cards if the situation is dire.
I actually kind of like it. Waste Not is an interesting way to take advantage of having 8+ discard effects in the 75. My initial pure gut reaction though is that it's actually better as a sideboard against Control and decks which use looting effects like Monastery Siege, Sultai Charm, or Jeskai Ascendancy. That would leave space to bring cards main that shore up the aggro match up, like the Anger of the Gods. Not clear to me without some practice reps and knowing your meta which configuration is best, or maybe a 2/2 or 3/1 split of each in main/board, so that you can "tune" depending on the matchup.
Waste Not does make me kind of want Sign in Blood in the deck. It's a nice complement to Commune as a way to turn a discarded land into cards for you.
Crater's Claws is okay, though not sure I wouldn't just run a few more Stormbreath Dragon over it. On an empty board they do the same damage for 5 mana, Stormbreath can block multiple creatures (and sometimes even large ones, thanks to pro-white) over turns, and if they sided out removal can do much more damage over time, plus you've got Havens, so it's even recurrable. I just don't see enough synergies in the deck for Claws to make it worth running over hard removal like Price/Downfall or a more persistent threat. Even the minor advantage of getting a discarded land to pump it isn't that great, because you've already spent at least 3 mana just to cast the Command, and it restricts you do doing so at Sorcery speed.
Murderous Cut, I think I'd prefer something that was more reliably castable before turn 4 or so. I'd personally probably go with a Price, but I could see the argument for another Downfall too. I really want 8 fetches and some looting, milling or cantrip type effects before Cut becomes a go to spell. This deck's curve isn't super high, but it's not so low that you're going to reliably have more than 3 cards in your bin by turn 4 or 5.
One thing to consider for sideboard against swarm aggro is Archfiend of Depravity. It keeps decks which rely on lots of manifest, tokens, or just large numbers of mid power creatures down to a reasonable level. Another thing to consider if Whip and Mastery decks prove popular is Erebos, God of the Dead. Hard to remove, shuts off their life gain and gives you another way to spend mana for cards if the situation is dire.
I do like the 4 waste not main, since it's actually been rather versatile for me. It eats control alive, and I actually use it to generate blockers vs aggro. I am considering siding crux for anger. Anger feels more relevant a lot of the time. What are your thoughts on that?
I'm honestly not a huge fan of sign in blood. While you have a very good point on the synergy there, I find the life points frequently relevant, and haven't had terrible amounts of trouble with my draw between commune and waste not. Crater claws is in over stormbreath to have something not vulnerable to removal, as well as being a good mana sink. It also can double as removal itself which is nice. I'd never run it in high amounts, perhaps even dropping to just one, but it does have it's purpose. I'll try cutting one for an additional stormy and see how it feels.
On cut, I could see price there honestly, but I felt with no other delve spells cut might be alright. It's a new addition so i'm not sure how i feel about it to be honest. Archfiend looks like he'd be a good choice, but at the same time I feel he might just eat a stoke. I could of course bring him back with command. Hm. What would you take off side for him? As for erebos, I think I'll just keep him as my "16th" sideboard card and stick him in my 75 as the meta swings. I do like that he's additional draw, and four mana is definitely manageable. I'm playing mostly online, so that's the meta i'm prepped for, hence the tons of hate for esper dragons.
European here, so it seems I missed quite a bit in this thread overnight,
It's rather sad, we started this thread as a R/B dragons thread which focused on hand disruption and dragons, a more control like strategy which could turn gears quick to close out games with the help of dragons.
I have no issues whatsoever with people brewing around but the thread seems quite diluted with brews that are more around RW aggro or FNM brews.
Again this is standard deck creation, I by no means am implying that these decks need to be pro tour level, but we started out with a deck that posted really good results. So good even that it got its own spotlight by CVM and it played top8 in several PPTQ's last weekend. Could we please remain on topic?
Flamewake phoenix is a good card, in it's own right and the correct deck, however, does it have a place in a deck which tries to play removal and hand disruption until t4 and then wants to starts slamming down dragons?
Playing a deck which wants to play hand disruption and removal t1 until t4 without the best discard spell in the format, for whatever reasons, does not sound like a smart idea. Cards like servant are really fun and I'm sure they could work in 15man FNM's but they are just not competitive material, at least not in the current meta. (As we've seen from results)
If you want to brew in this thread, by all means go for it, but I don't see the need to flame each other for card choices when we are discussing brews or FNM decks. Neither servant or the flamewake deck would do well at a competitive tourney, so all in all I wouldn't take it all too serious.
Back on topic about Dragons R/B deck, I've swapped out Chandra for a third Kolaghans command maindeck. Had a 35man tourney last night and it paid off quite good. Faced 3x Dragon control in 6 rounds, once in top 8 and every deck had maindeck copies of Perilious Vault. Faced 1 Sultai reanimator and hitting a Whip of Erebos is nice but, destroying vault was just great.
Ashiok and Vault will be played more, so I'd keep that in mind. I've upped heroes downfall to the 4th in the SB (3MB) for Ashiok.
Top8 was a breeze to the finals, which I lost to G/R dragons. outraced by dragons while not seeing relevant removal. It happens
I'll post my updated decklist and results tonight when I get back home, for now, keep it fun, remember it's just a card game
I have splashed blue in R/B Dragons (Blue only being Silumgar, Drifting Death and using the havens for him)
Tokens are a Problem same with control lol
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Kekule_the_Magician on the inclusion of Devouring Light in a TurboFog Deck:
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As a person who typically plays very creature oriented decks, I HATE when an opponent has Devouring Light. It is infuriating to finally get through with a creature on to have it exiled.
I've come to hate White in general now because it gets everything to the point where it is almost unfair. White has boardwipes (Wrath of God, End Hostilities), targeted exile and removal (Devouring Light, Banishing Light, Last Breath), lifegain spells, lifelink, low cost/high power enchantments and auras, flying creatures; my goodness what don't they get!?
I do like the 4 waste not main, since it's actually been rather versatile for me. It eats control alive, and I actually use it to generate blockers vs aggro. I am considering siding crux for anger. Anger feels more relevant a lot of the time. What are your thoughts on that?
Probably okay to go to 1/1 main with crux/anger. There's a fair bit in the format Anger doesn't hit right now, so having a board clear that doesn't care about toughness is pretty critical.
My view is that in this deck, I wouldn't rate Waste Not as a critical component. It's good, especially in certain matchups, it has synergies, but without a discard spell in hand it's a dead card, and you can easily win games without ever seeing it. And the second and third hold proportionally less value than the first. My personal criteria for a card like that is to run 2 or 3 main. That's enough that you'll probably see one most games, but reduces the risk of getting flooded with them.
Another way to view it is to consider what it would be like as a 2/2 or 3/1. How many matchups would you actually bring in the extras? If you lose game 1 to <arbitrary deck here>, is bringing in extra Waste Not how you're going to want to tip the tide in your favor? Control decks? Yeah, you probably want Wastes to replace dead removal. Aggro decks that mostly empty their hand by turn 3 or 4? No, that's awful. Midrange grindy decks? Maybe, depends on if they have any self discard or card draw to make sure your mid to late game discard effects have targets.
On cut, I could see price there honestly, but I felt with no other delve spells cut might be alright. It's a new addition so i'm not sure how i feel about it to be honest. Archfiend looks like he'd be a good choice, but at the same time I feel he might just eat a stoke. I could of course bring him back with command. Hm. What would you take off side for him? As for erebos, I think I'll just keep him as my "16th" sideboard card and stick him in my 75 as the meta swings. I do like that he's additional draw, and four mana is definitely manageable. I'm playing mostly online, so that's the meta i'm prepped for, hence the tons of hate for esper dragons.
Cut/Price is kind of a toss up. Having the unconditional removal is nice, as is the 1 mana option once you're into the late game. The downside is imagine an opening 7 that's something like: Cut, 3 non-fetch lands, A Dragon, and only 2 conditional disruption/removal spells like Command or Roar. You can't really mulligan that hand, but that cut isn't online until at least turn 3, and more likely turn 4 or 5, and possibly even later.
As for Archfiend, against tokens Stoke is a bit of an issue (though it's also one less stoke to the face), but Gw Devotion and GW aggro really do not have much a way to deal with it. For fitting them, I'd probably start with Mogis. They do the same sort of thing, ultimately. The other one is a little tougher, but I'd probably say the Draconic Roar is the most situational and least likely to turn a bad matchup good in the current meta.
It seems like Waste Not is bad in this deck. Most of the time it'll be a dead card. Against control, you'll likely get to draw one or two cards and maybe get some mana - nothing control can't overcome. If your deck was more heavily discard-oriented, it'd make more sense. But as it stands now, you just won't get enough value from it, and there are plenty of decks that can just ignore a Waste Not and still beat you.
your actual knowledge of magic is rather small. i have a sideboard but i don't post it. Sideboards are made for the meta, why post a sideboard is you have no knowledge of the meta. your right, not every deck plays 4 CMC flyers but every deck is packing some form of removal or burn. I've been explaining why Phoenix is bad but <you're to dumb> to understand and i know my deck isn't perfect, nobody's is.
Dragonlord's servant stops aggro, the 1/3 that will block, and sometimes kill, any creature you swing at me. "Burn it with a strike, i don't care." Rabblemaster having 1 more attack power can change everything. they can kill rabblemaster, its will be less removal/burn spells more my other creatures. servant has great synergy with rabblemaster and of course i'm going to play the t3 dragon over rabblemaster. don't assume stupid stuff like that. this is the dragons thread. not the B/R aggro thread.
And do you really think that im going to fully delve for a cut? There are points in every deck where you have 2-3 mana unused. You would use all of that mana to cast the cuts and get rid of 2-3 cards in the grave. you would be surprised on how effective that is.
Mana is always an issue, because i flood out at 23. Your entire argument falls on itself.
And when did you switch from your deck to mine? Im actually doing great at tourneys. top 8ing at each tourney i go to. you will be lucky to get a win, let alone a actually win a round. Playing 8 lands that tap? your just inviting aggro to kill you early. You also lack havens, the deck needs at least 3. you have 8 cards in your deck that will hurt you to draw cards. Sure foul toung helps but not enough for the damage your gonna take. And the biggest flaw is (insert drum roll here) Flamewake phoenix, which i have now explained 3 time why its bad.
Flaming is not allowed according to MTGS rules. -- Lugger
I have splashed blue in R/B Dragons (Blue only being Silumgar, Drifting Death and using the havens for him)
Tokens are a Problem same with control lol
How has the blue been working out? In my inital brew, i was testing blue for silumgar's scourn and both the silumgars. The results wern't as effective as just R/B for me. I would love to see the list.
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If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
It seems like Waste Not is bad in this deck. Most of the time it'll be a dead card. Against control, you'll likely get to draw one or two cards and maybe get some mana - nothing control can't overcome. If your deck was more heavily discard-oriented, it'd make more sense. But as it stands now, you just won't get enough value from it, and there are plenty of decks that can just ignore a Waste Not and still beat you.
I agree, it seems like a good sideboard card against control and tokens though. T1 Thoughtseize/Duress/Despise T2 Waste Not t3 left over discard spells
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If you do that, chances are you won't have any other discard spells in your original 7 plus the two you draw (with 8 discard spells, you'd have a 33% chance to have two discard spells in your first nine cards). You're better off waiting to play Waste Not on turn two and then your discard on turn three, but even that puts you too far behind against a lot of decks.
Waste Not is bad even as a SB card because it requires other cards to make it work. Your SB cards need to be impactful by themselves, not a card that will only get you a small amount of value over the course of your typical game. It's just one of those cards that you have to build around for it to be any good.
It seems like Waste Not is bad in this deck. Most of the time it'll be a dead card. Against control, you'll likely get to draw one or two cards and maybe get some mana - nothing control can't overcome. If your deck was more heavily discard-oriented, it'd make more sense. But as it stands now, you just won't get enough value from it, and there are plenty of decks that can just ignore a Waste Not and still beat you.
Eh I was skeptical too. But it's done fantastic work. One zombie means them wasting targeted removal. As for drawing cards, against UBx control its been drawing at least 3 a game and is awesome in multiples. It's been good, but I seriously don't blame you for findings it questionable. One thing to note is vs control I side in 4 more discard brining me to 12 discard spells.
On having to build around it, that's where I gets actively BAD. I would play 4 seize and command no matter what. Waste not helps me grind out control and make up for my lack of draw. It's not for everyone but it has singlehandedly won me games. It isn't just support, it's an additional win con vs control.
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1277-almost-done
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
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If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1277-almost-done
Good news: I finished my playset of thunderbreak regent game day promos. So happy
Bad news: my friend canceled so I couldn't post any results. I will post all results from my FNM the day after
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1277-almost-done
Just because you don't like our comments doesn't mean we haven't played with the cards. We have, which is why we're
making recommendations to you. If multiple people are telling you something, chances are it's not unreasonable.[/
quote]
Well since there is no mention of flamewake in thread it appears to be a safe assumption that nobody is testing the card. Additionally decks are being posted with dragon tempest and dragon shaman whatever guy. I understand that thisnot the ccompetitive section but claiming cards are a must have and offering don't play card xXxX because it is going to rotate as validation for inclusion or exclusion is a fallacy. But by all means keep play dragon tempest and not thoughtsieze and claim it as reason for flamewake being bad.
Only one person said dragon tempest was bad and I actually agreed with him. I even told him that I might end up taking it out anyway. The difference is that it's can deal damage and can't be easily removed. Giving dragons haste is another perk.
Flamewake dies to everything, including any burn spell played, and as it was already mentioned, is only good if your in a winning board state. It's fun to dump a mans to get it back even though it gets chopped up by any flyer in the format. The fact that it must attack each turn makes the card even worse. You can't use him to block.
I already told you that I tried to play him and for all the reasons mentioned above, I took them out. That's why it hasent showed up in any other lists. It's just a terrible card right now.
Crux I should not even have to explain. 5 mana to wipe the board of everything but your dragons is why it has a main deck minimum of 2.
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
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Your advise has been so helpful, consisting of Flamewake dies to removal, it can't block(which is not true you can play it in your second main phase to use as a blocker if need be) and gets blocked by every flyer. Those are mountain moving observations. You know what other commonly played card dies to every removal spell and is blocked my even more cards that Flamewake...Goblin Rabblemaster. By your measure Rabblemaster must be terrible, yet there it is in your list.
You have to examine the context in which the card is used, blindly saying that card x is awesome/terrible without looking at how the card is intended to be used is shortsighted. Clearly Flamewake vs, any dragon is bad for Flamewake, what you should consider is the damage Flamewake deals before the dragon shows up, or the removal spells in your deck to remove their dragon, or that the burn spell targeting Flamewake is now not aimed at your face. But by all means keep testing [card]Dragonlord's Servant[/card, and outpost siege with 8 main deck 5+ CMC cards, and no side board.
So lets assume for a moment that I am a kid, and I want to win my FMN with a r/b dragon control deck. You would advise me to not play with a very powerful meta defining card that has cross format playability because it is going to rotate out of standard in about 5 months. Good thing Thoughtseize is $18-22 and your advise if free.
Just so we are clear I'm not telling you to play thoughtsieze. If you don't want to play the card for whatever reason that's fine, but you're not really going to understand how my list functions unless you try to replicate it. The deck was not made to beat down with flamewake, it's a control deck that leverages spot removal, hand disruption, and draw spells to force the game into a place where your opponent has few good options.
Your list looks like a mashed up version of the old r/w deck pre dragons of tarkir(without the white), with a poor removal suite, situational card advantage, topped with some dragons. Here is some advise, don't play 4 Murderous Cut. The first one makes the second one less effective, but reasonable. Your deck does not fill the graveyard quickly. The reason cut is good is because it allows you to set a line of play where you can play two spells in a turn. Playing the full play set, while presenting you consistently with that opportunity will also consistently make the following copies worse. In addition there will be times when you have cut in your hand and cannot cast it because you cant get to five mana. I can't remember any list that runs 4 cuts without some way to fill the graveyard.
Then again my advise if free 'casue I'm just a kid looking to go 0-5 at the one FMN my mom drives me to each month.
Flamewake does die to removal, like any creature but not all creatures die to any burn spell in the format. You need to learn the difference between "burn" and "removal" because there are a lot of differences between them. Cool you can block with Phoenix for a turn, a turn. 90 percent of that time the block won't even matter. Rabblemaster will at least trade with something, and get some actual use out of him.
Flamewake will deal 2 damage if you play it t3, because other flyers come in t4, and if it doesn't get removed by the countless instants that will take it down. You want to pay 3 to not take some damage? Dude, splash white for deflecting Palm. It's cheaper, and deals that damage back. Magic is for smart players, not idiots.
Dragonlord's server stops aggro, gets me a t3 thunderbreak, and feeds rabblemaster. Outpost siege gets to either net card advantage or deal more damage to players or remove creatures.
I never once said that you should play thoughtseize. I'm not going to pay that much for it. I would love to play them if I already had the card.
My list has actually been proven, placing 2nd at gamesay. And placing top 8 at each FNM I've been too. Your list looks like a flaming pile of ***** that my list took. Cuts actually replace themselfs, how does this deck not add to the graveyard? It's packed with all the removal to fill the graveyard.
Kid, ok back to the little kids conner with all the others kids learning to play.
Trolling/flaming is not allowed according to MTGS rules. -Lugger
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1277-almost-done
4 Waste Not
Instants
4 Kolaghan's Command
3 Draconic Roar
1 murderous cut
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Commune with Lava
Sorceries
4 Thoughtseize
2 Crater's Claws
2 Crux of Fate
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Stormbreath Dragon
Lands
4 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bloodfell Caves
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Temple of Malice
2 Duress
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Crux of Fate
1 Draconic Roar
4 Anger of the Gods
1 mogis, god of slaughter
1 Liliana Vess
2 Despise
2 Ultimate Price
This is what i've been testing lately. Been working pretty awesomely against control decks and seems to go 50/50 with aggro. It packs a lotta hate for aggro, but it's a little slow so they have a good window to catch me. Where I'm struggling is GW midrangey (NOT azban, that hasn't really been very tough at all) aggro decks, and whip decks. I've kinda accepted that's gonna be an uphill battle, but any advice on reformulating my removal suite to tune is to the meta better is certainly welcome. Also, the deck is worth it to me just to see ascendancy players frown as they try and loot their deck with waste not out
This is a great list, commune with lava seems out of place though.
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
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Congratulations on your local meta 2nd place gameday finish, without a side board. Surely you grinded through 10+ rounds cutting to a top 8 for two more rounds playing against the best players from over a 300 mile radius. You seem to have a large misunderstanding of the where the format is. Not every deck plays 4CMC flyers. Your like so many other posters in this site making blanket statements about cards with no reasoning behind them other than "my card/deck is good because it's my card/deck, your deck/card sucks because it's your card so your stupid". You have made it crystal clear that you are not capable of offering any thought beyond the obvious.
Yes i understand the difference between removal and burn. that difference is meaningless when the removal spell or burn spell is aimed at your creature...in essence they are both removal spells. But hey thanks for the reminder of the meaningless.
Dragonlord's servant does not stop agro. Mono red goes around/kills it, and Jeskai goes over and around it. Maybe your Game Day event is so advanced that those decks are present. As for boosting your rabblemasters...your rabblemaster having one more power attacking changes exactly nothing. The same spells that kill him before still kill him now, the same creatures that kill him in combat still kill him in combat, perhaps that is why you only play 2 rabblemaster because they don't really synergize with rabblemaster other than they are both goblins. Dragonlord servant has negative snygery with rabblemaster because when you play turn servant you want to play turn 3 Dragon which completely skips over rabblemaster. If playing dragons are on turn 3 is important then i suggest you play g/r dragons and play with elvish mystic so you can play turn 3 dragons. See how that works, constructive criticism. Not snotty baseless statements but then again I'm just a kid saving my lunch money to buy toughtsizes and mowing lawns so mom will drive me to the shop once every 3 months.
I'll explain again why cuts aren't good in multiples because you seem intent on the simple I'll keep it short.
Murderous Cut
You have exactly 16 cards in your list that would be in the graveyard be turn 4. Allowing for perfect land drops in your 23 land deck of which nearly a third is made up of 4 CMC card or higher and that is not counting the cuts, you would probably have 1-2 cards usually in your yard and 3 or more at best by turn 4. This means that your cut will most likely cost you 2 or 3 mana and all the cards in your graveyard. So if your following closely will only leave the recently cast cut in your yard for turn 5. So that cut will now cost you 4 mana plus the cut in your yard. Leaving you with one mana left over to cast exactly nothing in your list. Of course your still hitting all your land drops in a 23 land deck.
I actually kind of like it. Waste Not is an interesting way to take advantage of having 8+ discard effects in the 75. My initial pure gut reaction though is that it's actually better as a sideboard against Control and decks which use looting effects like Monastery Siege, Sultai Charm, or Jeskai Ascendancy. That would leave space to bring cards main that shore up the aggro match up, like the Anger of the Gods. Not clear to me without some practice reps and knowing your meta which configuration is best, or maybe a 2/2 or 3/1 split of each in main/board, so that you can "tune" depending on the matchup.
Waste Not does make me kind of want Sign in Blood in the deck. It's a nice complement to Commune as a way to turn a discarded land into cards for you.
Crater's Claws is okay, though not sure I wouldn't just run a few more Stormbreath Dragon over it. On an empty board they do the same damage for 5 mana, Stormbreath can block multiple creatures (and sometimes even large ones, thanks to pro-white) over turns, and if they sided out removal can do much more damage over time, plus you've got Havens, so it's even recurrable. I just don't see enough synergies in the deck for Claws to make it worth running over hard removal like Price/Downfall or a more persistent threat. Even the minor advantage of getting a discarded land to pump it isn't that great, because you've already spent at least 3 mana just to cast the Command, and it restricts you do doing so at Sorcery speed.
Murderous Cut, I think I'd prefer something that was more reliably castable before turn 4 or so. I'd personally probably go with a Price, but I could see the argument for another Downfall too. I really want 8 fetches and some looting, milling or cantrip type effects before Cut becomes a go to spell. This deck's curve isn't super high, but it's not so low that you're going to reliably have more than 3 cards in your bin by turn 4 or 5.
One thing to consider for sideboard against swarm aggro is Archfiend of Depravity. It keeps decks which rely on lots of manifest, tokens, or just large numbers of mid power creatures down to a reasonable level. Another thing to consider if Whip and Mastery decks prove popular is Erebos, God of the Dead. Hard to remove, shuts off their life gain and gives you another way to spend mana for cards if the situation is dire.
I do like the 4 waste not main, since it's actually been rather versatile for me. It eats control alive, and I actually use it to generate blockers vs aggro. I am considering siding crux for anger. Anger feels more relevant a lot of the time. What are your thoughts on that?
I'm honestly not a huge fan of sign in blood. While you have a very good point on the synergy there, I find the life points frequently relevant, and haven't had terrible amounts of trouble with my draw between commune and waste not. Crater claws is in over stormbreath to have something not vulnerable to removal, as well as being a good mana sink. It also can double as removal itself which is nice. I'd never run it in high amounts, perhaps even dropping to just one, but it does have it's purpose. I'll try cutting one for an additional stormy and see how it feels.
On cut, I could see price there honestly, but I felt with no other delve spells cut might be alright. It's a new addition so i'm not sure how i feel about it to be honest. Archfiend looks like he'd be a good choice, but at the same time I feel he might just eat a stoke. I could of course bring him back with command. Hm. What would you take off side for him? As for erebos, I think I'll just keep him as my "16th" sideboard card and stick him in my 75 as the meta swings. I do like that he's additional draw, and four mana is definitely manageable. I'm playing mostly online, so that's the meta i'm prepped for, hence the tons of hate for esper dragons.
I have splashed blue in R/B Dragons (Blue only being Silumgar, Drifting Death and using the havens for him)
Tokens are a Problem same with control lol
Probably okay to go to 1/1 main with crux/anger. There's a fair bit in the format Anger doesn't hit right now, so having a board clear that doesn't care about toughness is pretty critical.
My view is that in this deck, I wouldn't rate Waste Not as a critical component. It's good, especially in certain matchups, it has synergies, but without a discard spell in hand it's a dead card, and you can easily win games without ever seeing it. And the second and third hold proportionally less value than the first. My personal criteria for a card like that is to run 2 or 3 main. That's enough that you'll probably see one most games, but reduces the risk of getting flooded with them.
Another way to view it is to consider what it would be like as a 2/2 or 3/1. How many matchups would you actually bring in the extras? If you lose game 1 to <arbitrary deck here>, is bringing in extra Waste Not how you're going to want to tip the tide in your favor? Control decks? Yeah, you probably want Wastes to replace dead removal. Aggro decks that mostly empty their hand by turn 3 or 4? No, that's awful. Midrange grindy decks? Maybe, depends on if they have any self discard or card draw to make sure your mid to late game discard effects have targets.
Cut/Price is kind of a toss up. Having the unconditional removal is nice, as is the 1 mana option once you're into the late game. The downside is imagine an opening 7 that's something like: Cut, 3 non-fetch lands, A Dragon, and only 2 conditional disruption/removal spells like Command or Roar. You can't really mulligan that hand, but that cut isn't online until at least turn 3, and more likely turn 4 or 5, and possibly even later.
As for Archfiend, against tokens Stoke is a bit of an issue (though it's also one less stoke to the face), but Gw Devotion and GW aggro really do not have much a way to deal with it. For fitting them, I'd probably start with Mogis. They do the same sort of thing, ultimately. The other one is a little tougher, but I'd probably say the Draconic Roar is the most situational and least likely to turn a bad matchup good in the current meta.
Dragonlord's servant stops aggro, the 1/3 that will block, and sometimes kill, any creature you swing at me. "Burn it with a strike, i don't care." Rabblemaster having 1 more attack power can change everything. they can kill rabblemaster, its will be less removal/burn spells more my other creatures. servant has great synergy with rabblemaster and of course i'm going to play the t3 dragon over rabblemaster. don't assume stupid stuff like that. this is the dragons thread. not the B/R aggro thread.
And do you really think that im going to fully delve for a cut? There are points in every deck where you have 2-3 mana unused. You would use all of that mana to cast the cuts and get rid of 2-3 cards in the grave. you would be surprised on how effective that is.
Mana is always an issue, because i flood out at 23. Your entire argument falls on itself.
And when did you switch from your deck to mine? Im actually doing great at tourneys. top 8ing at each tourney i go to. you will be lucky to get a win, let alone a actually win a round. Playing 8 lands that tap? your just inviting aggro to kill you early. You also lack havens, the deck needs at least 3. you have 8 cards in your deck that will hurt you to draw cards. Sure foul toung helps but not enough for the damage your gonna take. And the biggest flaw is (insert drum roll here) Flamewake phoenix, which i have now explained 3 time why its bad.
Flaming is not allowed according to MTGS rules. -- Lugger
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1277-almost-done
How has the blue been working out? In my inital brew, i was testing blue for silumgar's scourn and both the silumgars. The results wern't as effective as just R/B for me. I would love to see the list.
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/1277-almost-done
I agree, it seems like a good sideboard card against control and tokens though. T1 Thoughtseize/Duress/Despise T2 Waste Not t3 left over discard spells
If you have a budget, you shouldn't play magic competitively
Main Deck: What's left
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-deck-creation/602378-kolaghan-dragons
trade me:
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Waste Not is bad even as a SB card because it requires other cards to make it work. Your SB cards need to be impactful by themselves, not a card that will only get you a small amount of value over the course of your typical game. It's just one of those cards that you have to build around for it to be any good.
Eh I was skeptical too. But it's done fantastic work. One zombie means them wasting targeted removal. As for drawing cards, against UBx control its been drawing at least 3 a game and is awesome in multiples. It's been good, but I seriously don't blame you for findings it questionable. One thing to note is vs control I side in 4 more discard brining me to 12 discard spells.
On having to build around it, that's where I gets actively BAD. I would play 4 seize and command no matter what. Waste not helps me grind out control and make up for my lack of draw. It's not for everyone but it has singlehandedly won me games. It isn't just support, it's an additional win con vs control.