Flamewake is a slow clock vs Abzan is more of my concern. They also have Anafenza, the Foremost + Abzan Charm to deal with robust threats. The charm cant catch the phoenix but even then its still sort of a slow threat vs their ground game not to mention the difficulty to offset a race between Siege Rhino and the phoenix.
I think its still an ok card but my concern is more that I don't think that its strong enough to run with 4 of them main. I would suggest moving 1-2 of them to sideboard as the control matchups are going to tend to be the ones you want them more.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Looking for some feedback on this list... I ran blue Green devotion/company with shorecrasher and Master of Waves and kicked ass last week, but I want to change it up.
What I really like personally when looking at the mainboard of GB is that the noncreature enchantments look very strong.
Bow of Nylea makes it so that you always trade when attacking and it makes token production, difficult to block creatures like Blood-Chin Rager and Den Protector more lethal, and recursive creatures like Bloodsoaked Champion / Deathmist Raptor more of a pain. The raptors already have deathtouch but the bow also potentially pushes them away from being removed via Anger of the Gods.
Whip of Erebos its both recursion as well as a huge life boost. It makes it really hard to damage race this sort of a deck. Ideally it probably doesnt bother with the recursion option unless its on a key creature but the life boost from it seems like it would shut down red deck and make Abzan really go on the defensive. It also allows you to essentially ignore the GR dragon deck's air game and make it a damage race that they wont like.
Dictate of Erebos its high on the mana cost which is why I was thinking just one but its potentially a blow out in combat or in response to a removal effect.
For me, the reasons to consider GB is more in the utility that comes with it. Not many decks are sideboarding more than a little bit of artifact / enchantment removal right now which seems like it would be in its favor. The sideboard options for a deck like this would include things like spot removal, Master of the Feast, and Pharika, God of Affliction. I personally think that Pharika is a little slow for the maindeck of this deck but she could do some serious work vs Abzan where she has to essentially be turned into a creature and then hit with an Abzan Charm for them to take her out. The tokens she makes are enchantment creatures so if someone hits you with a GW charm you can totally sac those to it.
I think in the GB version I would probably run 24 lands to ensure you hit the 4/5 mana correctly. I loaded mine more towards being a black focused deck so its also possible to run Thoughtsieze in the 75 if you want. The GB looks like a ton of fun and I want to try it out sometime soon.
Going a bit more agro-y, I'd rather see Heir of the Wilds instead of Courser of Kruphix to go with the Warrior theme going on. It also lowers the curve while lowering the impact of Dromoka's Command. Also, maybe a single Blood-Chin Fanatic over a Whip (or both) to provide a little reach? There isn't really anything worth Whipping back, so it could just go in the side for aggro.
Going a bit more agro-y, I'd rather see Heir of the Wilds instead of Courser of Kruphix to go with the Warrior theme going on. It also lowers the curve while lowering the impact of Dromoka's Command. Also, maybe a single Blood-Chin Fanatic over a Whip (or both) to provide a little reach? There isn't really anything worth Whipping back, so it could just go in the side for aggro.
Yea I could see the Heir over Courser, I have been liking the card advantage but I suspect black is a little more about getting in for the numbers.
Whip I was thinking more for the control matchup and GR dragons. Vs control it gives some late game sustain and vs dragons you can try to damage race them a lot easier which would be tough for them. I think the Bow of Nylea + the evasive and recursive creatures is my favorite part of the GB build. I think the whip still gives decent value pickup to Bloodsoaked Champion but it might even be worth running 3x Bow of Nylea main with one less whip.
This... is fantastic. Mind if I build it and run some tests with it? I think I'm going to try Heir over Courser first. Could two Master of the Feast be subbed in for Grim Haruspex? Cons: 2 black mana, gives card draw to opponent, dies to Dromoka's Command. Pros: Easier Ferocious trigger, big flyer (and even nastier with deathtouch (I'm looking at you Atarka)), and get a lot of life off whip. What'd you think?
This... is fantastic. Mind if I build it and run some tests with it? I think I'm going to try Heir over Courser first. Could two Master of the Feast be subbed in for Grim Haruspex? Cons: 2 black mana, gives card draw to opponent, dies to Dromoka's Command. Pros: Easier Ferocious trigger, big flyer (and even nastier with deathtouch (I'm looking at you Atarka)), and get a lot of life off whip. What'd you think?
By all means please do try it out. I think GB looks like a fun way to build it as I really like the non creatures I think it would want to run.
Master of the Feast - its a problem in my mind in the main because it gives opponents card advantage. Abzan is likely to have the removal effect for it so it gives them an extra card which is bad and control is the same thing. I think it works against GR dragons primarily which makes me think more that its perhaps sideboard for the dragon matchup in a deck like this than mainboard playable. Its just really bad vs control decks I guess is my concern. I like it a lot more specifically against GR dragon decks so in my mind its sideboard rather than mainboard because I still dont like it in too many matchups.
Grim Haruspex is in in part to enable Deathmist Raptor reanimations. You can get away with just 4x Den Protectors to recover them but at that point you wont be all that reliably recovering the raptors so at least a few extra options really helps. The Haruspex's ability is still really good but the problem with it is that it doesn't really do attacking into blockers or blocking all that well currently with the creatures that are seeing play. I will admit that I have not played with it but I was putting them in to try to enable a few more raptor flip targets. Ruthless Ripper could also sort of fit in this spot but unfortunately I dont really love any one of the other morph options. Grim Haruspex seems the most promising because in part it will focus some attention to removing it and it also makes people more warry of your face down morphs which I find amusing because if they target anything else or go to trade in combat you can flip it up for good value.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I currently run a GB based den + raptor deck with Grim Haruspex and Ruthless Ripper as additional Raptor triggers. I personally like Ripper for the added bonus of life loss, low cost morph trigger, and that you can bait bigger creatures when played face down. That being said, you can only realistically get away with that once in a game, but it does make your opponent a little shy to block or attack when a morph is out. I do agree that Grim isn't the greatest attacker or blocker out there, but the card advantage is nice and I've found that my opponents tend to target Grim w/ removal which is fine usually as it keeps cards I want as threats alive.
Collected company has been a card on my radar for some time now and I may just revamp my deck to try and fit it into the existing shell.
I've been testing with a abzan version of this which I think is more aggro than most and the top of the curve is siege rhino just because of how good it is.
How has testing been with just G/B?
I can post my list for reference if needed but I would love the much needed advice for the build.
I currently run a GB based den + raptor deck with Grim Haruspex and Ruthless Ripper as additional Raptor triggers. I personally like Ripper for the added bonus of life loss, low cost morph trigger, and that you can bait bigger creatures when played face down. That being said, you can only realistically get away with that once in a game, but it does make your opponent a little shy to block or attack when a morph is out. I do agree that Grim isn't the greatest attacker or blocker out there, but the card advantage is nice and I've found that my opponents tend to target Grim w/ removal which is fine usually as it keeps cards I want as threats alive.
Collected company has been a card on my radar for some time now and I may just revamp my deck to try and fit it into the existing shell.
Collected Company has been my number one target for Den Protectors from sort of a default stance. It just digs so much extra value especially when spot removal tends to be control's answers at the moment.
I've been testing with a abzan version of this which I think is more aggro than most and the top of the curve is siege rhino just because of how good it is.
How has testing been with just G/B?
I can post my list for reference if needed but I would love the much needed advice for the build.
The downside of Abzan is that its tricky to set up its landbase fast enough for a faster aggro approach. The current Abzan aggro has creatures curving up to 5 in a lot of cases and its got one of the hardest manabases to pull off in standard right now. Trying to speed it up and fit into a Collected Company shell would be challenging. When it comes to collected company in standard right now the landbase tends to favor being two color for the most part. I pull off Temur in part because mine is favoring green heavily and also thanks to Rattleclaw Mystic which acts as ramp, fix, and raptor support.
I think the landbase right now makes it tricky to be able to go three color with aggro strategies and not be splashing into colors. Mana Confluence is going to be something you would need to run in higher quantities to pull it off reliably but it also makes you more vulnerable to faster red decks as well as making it more of an option for the GR dragon decks to catch you in a damage race.
I personally have not put any testing into a GB deck yet so much as just provide a hypothetical build. I do think it looks like fun though but someone else would have to chime in on that offhand. If you wanted to post your list we could try to give it a once over but my thoughts on the landbase will probably still stand.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I built my list originally to be more in the midrange camp. To make collected company work, maybe taking out some of the removal would be more ideal, perhaps with some other creature additions.
I built my list originally to be more in the midrange camp. To make collected company work, maybe taking out some of the removal would be more ideal, perhaps with some other creature additions.
First, I think if you want to move it to being a Collected Company deck you probably want to look at what your targets are, the quantity of targets, and how good of a hit they are. Offhand the quantity and quality of your targets looks like it could be improved. I will go through the different cards you have in your deck and sort of what I think of hitting them in a collected company hit.
3 Ruthless Ripper - its far better to hit it to hand where you use it as a morph rez for the raptor. Its more aggressive than the Haruspex and can be used in combat decently which is nice but its not a very good hit in company.
3 Elvish Mystic - its all about the early game and by the time you company into it its almost a vanilla 1/1 where its only real purpose is going to be edict fodder, chump blocking, or swinging into an empty board.
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer - solid all arround creature. By the time you can company into it you will have some mana to be throwing about to play with its abilities. It might be vulnerable right when you fetch it but even then its going to put pressure on the control player quickly which is good. They arent great in multiples but people generally speaking have to move to remove them so having more is usually good.
4 Deathmist Raptor - its really good vs a lot of people right now. Abzan has good removal for it and it lacks a little bit of punch vs GR dragons who might try to race it. Generally speaking though its very versatile and strong.
4 Den Protector - they really want to be morphed rather than hit on company so it looses some power in a company but it still swings through tokens well which gives some harass power vs elspeth. If you run bestow creatures in deck hitting them in company gets a bit more powerful.
4 Grim Haruspex - its not great in combat but they are removal targets who can rez the raptors.
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller - cant hit it in company so its as good as a spell there.
1 Archfiend of Depravity cant hit it in company.
Offhand, your count looks low as we are looking at 22/60 as being targets but beyond that I think you have a lot of sort of weaker targets. You really are going to want to increase your count of potential targets and consider how good your targets will be if they are found in company to make company worth running. Its an extremely powerful effect but it does require you to design the deck around it some. Most of us have been running 25-27 targets on average main. That on average ends up being something like 23 lands with 10-12 whiffs. I think some of the lowest numbers that are seeing competitive play tend to be lists with 24 creatures of which 4 are mystics but I think this is getting very close to the point where you will start getting one target more often when using company.
The morph guys (other than raptor) are usually lower priority because they loose a lot of power when not morphed. I think you are running a bit heavy on your morph creatures too as I have been running 12 main (counting raptors) which is two other sets of morph creatures to fairly good results. You have the Den Protectors which is essentially the auto 4x in a raptor package but I think you are also too heavy beyond that. I would suggest you dont go beyond 12 mainboard targets as there are still a lot of matchups where you dont want to focus that much on your raptor game such as red sly or GR dragons. Abzan also has a strong removal package for them so if you focus too much on raptor rez you might not have a raptor to rez with all of your support. My own BG suggestion offhand ran 6 other non raptor morphs which means that there would be potentially 10 morph creatures including the raptors themselves. My suggestion is to lower your mainboard morph effects some and consider sideboarding some additional for the control matchup. Personally I still prefer Grim Haruspex over Ruthless Ripper as it stands but I think going beyond 3 of them seems excessive.
Archfiend of Depravity just needs to go as a whole. Its not going to cut it for standard.
Surrak, the Hunt Caller is alright but remember you have to keep your non company hits in check. He also tends to be easily removed right now by most of the spot removal seeing play and does not expand your own ability to remove problem threats. I think he is playable but keep him in check to probably 2x copies if you are going to run him. I think his best game tends to be vs GR dragons currently so I prefer him more in the SB than the main but it depends on what sort of results you are getting with him I suppose.
Spells - remember what I mentioned about spell count above. Generally speaking Collected Company decks limit themselves to 10 or so non land whiffs and Collected Company counts as 4 copies. You will want to cut into your spells to make this into a company deck. You can usually stretch this count to somewhere around 12 but keep in mind that if you dilute it too much you will start getting whiffs more frequently in the company casts which is usually a bad thing for a build around card.
Elvish Mystic - I acknowledge that its a fantastic card but I stand by that I don't care for it in a Company aggro build because it so rarely speeds us up enough in my mind. It is not good at attacking or defending and its entire relivance sort of spins on it being in an opening hand with a landbase that is friendly towards curving in well (aka ETB tapped lands are not very friendly with it). I personally still dislike it in company builds due to the lack of versatility to it. I do acknowledge though that some seem to like it so its really a matter of personal opinion of it but I guess my suggestion is to test it and see what you think of it.
I figured I'd have to revamp much of the deck to make collected company viable and agree with your analysis entirely. I'm not a fan of Evlish Mystic, but in my current build it has become a necessary evil more often than not.
I've looked over your initial G/B list and it does have me thinking, so depending on my results tomorrow I may just retire my initial deck idea and go for the more aggressive collected company list.
Well time for another question from the peanut gallery. Now that we have had some time to establish the creature counts for 3cmc critters, what are everyone's finding on maximizing morphs for raptor fun? I know we all run 4 x den protector, but cards like hidden dragonslayer bring some other options into the fray. I am going to try 6x morphs in addition to the raptors tommorow and see how that all works.
Well time for another question from the peanut gallery. Now that we have had some time to establish the creature counts for 3cmc critters, what are everyone's finding on maximizing morphs for raptor fun? I know we all run 4 x den protector, but cards like hidden dragonslayer bring some other options into the fray. I am going to try 6x morphs in addition to the raptors tommorow and see how that all works.
I find that I like to be in the 6-9 other target range generally speaking. Its nice to be able to buff the count in some way after sideboard as there are still matchups where recurring a raptor isn't as important so I don't like focusing it that hard.
When it comes to the WG build I think it tends to be between running the 4x Den Protectors and a lot of people are also running a few Hidden Dragonslayer + a few Mastery of the Unseen so I think the normal GW build tends to be something like 8-9 mainboard other options to revive them but it really depends on if you run the mastery or not which not all GW builds do.
I have been running 8 morphs myself in Temur but I think 6 other morph options is sort of the baseline of where you probably want to be for raptor.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Alright got to play some more matches against 2 more interesting deck types.
R/G dragons. This deck is easy, easier if you get a hidden dragonslayer on the field. They just can not execute as efficiently as this deck can. I might even go as far as cutting the arashin clerics based on how efficient this playtest performed.
A 3 Color deck based on fleecemace lion, siege rhino, anafensa the foremost, rakasha deathdealer, and approx 12-16x creature hate cards. This deck just kept me down long enough to beat me. I know that this deck is always a possibility due to the strength of the cards and the simplicity of the deck, despite the fact that control eats it as almost an auto win. I am working on aquireing more hornets nests as a good sideboard option against this type (and other rhinoy) decks. It will also help alot against the token swarm and other weenie rush decks too (like rabblemaster ) I am really liking the consistency and punch that the deck is providing now. It gives several good matchups and put pressure on very early. One way or another we will get collected company as a tier one deck.
@stormie_sarge I think your mana count is to low you really want to be curving out to 5 mana so you can play and flip den protector, play multiple spells in a turn and cast ajani on time
I was playing gw but there are a lot of stormbreaths in my local meta and that was a hard match. The addition of crater elementals to the main has made it so its not terrible now. I could have gone into abzan for removal but this gives something that collected company can hit, thats still ok removal and can be a decent threat in its own right. Although I would love to run both anafenza.
commands, windstorm and clerics are definite in the sb the rest is still a work in progress
the 12 scry lands help even out the draws , you can still play like a aggro deck as long as you dont get the all scry draw
nazradin I think your red splash isn't quite justified as it stands. You are complicating your landbase and not getting much from it. I also think that 12 ETB tapped scry lands is going to hurt in an aggro deck. I am right now running only 6 ETB tapped lands (which is probably lower than I need it) but I think you might want to try to back it down a little.
White does have some issues with Stormbreath Dragon but I don't know if splashing red is going to be the answer. Netcaster Spider could possibly serve in place of the Crater Elemental without complicating your landbase.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I'm thinking of switching things up though. Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit has been an allstar so far, so not taking her out yet, but I will switch out a forest for another Blossoming Sands.
My experience has been mostly positive. I find that the deck matches up pretty well against other midrange/aggressive decks. Arashin Foremost catches many players off guard, and bringing it in mid-combat or at end step with CoCo can blow people out. After board, Hornet Nest and Courser help shore up some weaknesses against very aggressive decks.
Against control, the deck is bad. CoCo, Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector are the best weapons but they are pretty slow. Once the control player lands a Dig Through Time or Crux of Fate, it's really hard to come back. Alesha, Who Smiles at Death can bring back Foremost or Rabblemaster or Heir to add a little more resilience and card advantage against control decks, but it just isn't enough. I bring in Windstorm as a way to kill their Silumgars or Dragonlord Ojutais but it basically takes a whole turn and can just get Dissolved. Ugin and Ashiok are nigh unbeatable.
I've been thinking that an Abzan list might have a better shot, since that gives access to Thoughtseize and Abzan Charm. I'll probably try this next, with Blood-Chin Rager and Mardu Strike Leader in for Rabblemaster and Alesha. How do the other CoCo builds deal with control decks and what tricks do people use to beat them?
Game one I had some issues with him removing my blockers and or killing them so I had a hard time blocking him most of the game. He got to go first as well which hurt. I almost stabilized but I got to 4 mana (no company) and I needed a 5th to rez a raptor to pull in multi blockers vs him one turn where he blew out my block and swing through for the last 6.
Game two I brought in a bunch of hate for him and was going first. Unfortunately I mulliganed to 4 cards and never found a hand with 2+ lands in it. I kept a 4 card hand and played one land and watched him perfect curve my face by like turn 4.
Match 2: Bye
Match 3: Mardu Control (superfriends)
Game 1 - I ended up with a hand with a Boon Sayter and 2x Collected Company. I luckily hit the land I needed to play sort of right when I needed to and got to play this one fine.
Game 2 - I had a slower start but I pushed threats one at a time to avoid being blown out by his Anger of the Gods I knew he pulled in. I moved to two threats with a face down Stratus Dancer which he pushed an Anger into next turn. Raptor and Den Protectors got me through this match as well. When he went to drop an Elspeth to try to drop blockers in my face I hit it with a Temur Charm counter. Den Protector with a counter on it was able to just beat him up so well due to the fact that it could swing through his blockers.
Its not much of a game report considering I only got two matches but it was a casual even since we couldn't launch it due to our player count. The land screw vs sly was really unfortunate as I was really banking on a good game two so just rolling over and taking its sort of not something I can deal with. I have been thinking about bumping my land count up one and running 24 lands as it seems like I have been having issues with that on a somewhat regular basis.
Mine has been doing well overall and it seems to have a good match vs control and a lot of midrange builds but occasionally it feels slow to get off the ground and the lack of decent removal effects that I would want to run main sort of hurts too. As another note, the sideboarded Stubborn Denial feels a little less effective than when I originally added them back when I was running Frost Walker. Frost Walker is also better vs most control decks so I might have to move the Stubborn Denial to being Negate instead.
I personally feel if your going CoCo in standard, especially warriors, you have to go all in on the aggro plan. Specifically, you need a consistent turn 4-5 kill or a 1 shot kill. Based on that premise this is what I've come up with:
The premise is getting any 1 warrior in with double strike for a become immense buff for 16 damage in 1 swing as early as turn 4. 2 creatures with double strike and an atarka's is always good for 15 as well (3/3 double x2 with 3 burn from spell). The fetches fix your mana, speed you play (minimal tap lands), and fuel become immense. Your creatures attack profitably anytime double strike is involved, and it only takes one unblocked creature to win. Collected company, high creature density, and Alesha do the rest. Its very possible to out grind big midrange decks (post-board) as well. I've had good success with this build on cockatrice and FNM, but I'll admit I haven't gotten to go to any tournaments.
Control is just getting something to connect when they are tapped out, coco when they get greedy enough to play a dragon is perfect since you should only need 1 connecting creature by that point anyway.
Windstorm and maindeck atarka's command lets you handle any and all fliers.
Dragonslayer is very versatile, either gaining life or as mana sink for removal. Like alesha, you typically play him late game, preferably face down or when arashin is already on board.
CoCo mid combat for double strike is something almost no one sees coming and just wins games. Its a risky play you use when you know your going to lose in 1-2 turns if you don't finish them. Its still mostly used on their EoT to restock however.
Well I have to say I am pretty excited elvish visionary is back in the picture for deck building. For just the pure board position and card advantage it creates (especially when combined with company) will allow for more pressure to be presented. What I plan on using it for is to be a deck thinning option, along with the ability of making collected company into a draw card with benefits. It will also help the control match up immensely IMHO. What is everyone else's opinion on it?
I personally feel if your going CoCo in standard, especially warriors, you have to go all in on the aggro plan. Specifically, you need a consistent turn 4-5 kill or a 1 shot kill. Based on that premise this is what I've come up with:
The premise is getting any 1 warrior in with double strike for a become immense buff for 16 damage in 1 swing as early as turn 4. 2 creatures with double strike and an atarka's is always good for 15 as well (3/3 double x2 with 3 burn from spell). The fetches fix your mana, speed you play (minimal tap lands), and fuel become immense. Your creatures attack profitably anytime double strike is involved, and it only takes one unblocked creature to win. Collected company, high creature density, and Alesha do the rest. Its very possible to out grind big midrange decks (post-board) as well. I've had good success with this build on cockatrice and FNM, but I'll admit I haven't gotten to go to any tournaments.
Control is just getting something to connect when they are tapped out, coco when they get greedy enough to play a dragon is perfect since you should only need 1 connecting creature by that point anyway.
Windstorm and maindeck atarka's command lets you handle any and all fliers.
Dragonslayer is very versatile, either gaining life or as mana sink for removal. Like alesha, you typically play him late game, preferably face down or when arashin is already on board.
CoCo mid combat for double strike is something almost no one sees coming and just wins games. Its a risky play you use when you know your going to lose in 1-2 turns if you don't finish them. Its still mostly used on their EoT to restock however.
I think if you want to push for aggro 3 color you are going to need to consider 3-4 Mana Confluence. Soldier of the Pantheon is also generally speaking superior to most of the one drops in here assuming you are planning on facing Abzan which has been making up a large portion of the meta right now and considering they are midrange creatures they seem like they would be an issue for this sort of build. I think it would be worthwhile to work them into the list.
I think its still an ok card but my concern is more that I don't think that its strong enough to run with 4 of them main. I would suggest moving 1-2 of them to sideboard as the control matchups are going to tend to be the ones you want them more.
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4 Grim Haruspex
4 Boon Satyr
4 heir of the wilds
3 pitiless horde
3 merciless executioner
3 Elvish Mystic
3 Master of the feast
2 Nighthowler
2 Mogis's Marauder
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Den Protector
1 Pharika, god of affliction
4 Jungle Hollow
9 Forest
6 Swamp
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Blood-Chin Rager
4 Den Protector
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Deathmist Raptor
2 Grim Haruspex
3 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Collected Company
2 Bow of Nylea
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Dictate of Erebos
What I really like personally when looking at the mainboard of GB is that the noncreature enchantments look very strong.
Bow of Nylea makes it so that you always trade when attacking and it makes token production, difficult to block creatures like Blood-Chin Rager and Den Protector more lethal, and recursive creatures like Bloodsoaked Champion / Deathmist Raptor more of a pain. The raptors already have deathtouch but the bow also potentially pushes them away from being removed via Anger of the Gods.
Whip of Erebos its both recursion as well as a huge life boost. It makes it really hard to damage race this sort of a deck. Ideally it probably doesnt bother with the recursion option unless its on a key creature but the life boost from it seems like it would shut down red deck and make Abzan really go on the defensive. It also allows you to essentially ignore the GR dragon deck's air game and make it a damage race that they wont like.
Dictate of Erebos its high on the mana cost which is why I was thinking just one but its potentially a blow out in combat or in response to a removal effect.
For me, the reasons to consider GB is more in the utility that comes with it. Not many decks are sideboarding more than a little bit of artifact / enchantment removal right now which seems like it would be in its favor. The sideboard options for a deck like this would include things like spot removal, Master of the Feast, and Pharika, God of Affliction. I personally think that Pharika is a little slow for the maindeck of this deck but she could do some serious work vs Abzan where she has to essentially be turned into a creature and then hit with an Abzan Charm for them to take her out. The tokens she makes are enchantment creatures so if someone hits you with a GW charm you can totally sac those to it.
I think in the GB version I would probably run 24 lands to ensure you hit the 4/5 mana correctly. I loaded mine more towards being a black focused deck so its also possible to run Thoughtsieze in the 75 if you want. The GB looks like a ton of fun and I want to try it out sometime soon.
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Yea I could see the Heir over Courser, I have been liking the card advantage but I suspect black is a little more about getting in for the numbers.
Whip I was thinking more for the control matchup and GR dragons. Vs control it gives some late game sustain and vs dragons you can try to damage race them a lot easier which would be tough for them. I think the Bow of Nylea + the evasive and recursive creatures is my favorite part of the GB build. I think the whip still gives decent value pickup to Bloodsoaked Champion but it might even be worth running 3x Bow of Nylea main with one less whip.
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[Modern] Allies
By all means please do try it out. I think GB looks like a fun way to build it as I really like the non creatures I think it would want to run.
Master of the Feast - its a problem in my mind in the main because it gives opponents card advantage. Abzan is likely to have the removal effect for it so it gives them an extra card which is bad and control is the same thing. I think it works against GR dragons primarily which makes me think more that its perhaps sideboard for the dragon matchup in a deck like this than mainboard playable. Its just really bad vs control decks I guess is my concern. I like it a lot more specifically against GR dragon decks so in my mind its sideboard rather than mainboard because I still dont like it in too many matchups.
Grim Haruspex is in in part to enable Deathmist Raptor reanimations. You can get away with just 4x Den Protectors to recover them but at that point you wont be all that reliably recovering the raptors so at least a few extra options really helps. The Haruspex's ability is still really good but the problem with it is that it doesn't really do attacking into blockers or blocking all that well currently with the creatures that are seeing play. I will admit that I have not played with it but I was putting them in to try to enable a few more raptor flip targets. Ruthless Ripper could also sort of fit in this spot but unfortunately I dont really love any one of the other morph options. Grim Haruspex seems the most promising because in part it will focus some attention to removing it and it also makes people more warry of your face down morphs which I find amusing because if they target anything else or go to trade in combat you can flip it up for good value.
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[Modern] Allies
Collected company has been a card on my radar for some time now and I may just revamp my deck to try and fit it into the existing shell.
How has testing been with just G/B?
I can post my list for reference if needed but I would love the much needed advice for the build.
Collected Company has been my number one target for Den Protectors from sort of a default stance. It just digs so much extra value especially when spot removal tends to be control's answers at the moment.
The downside of Abzan is that its tricky to set up its landbase fast enough for a faster aggro approach. The current Abzan aggro has creatures curving up to 5 in a lot of cases and its got one of the hardest manabases to pull off in standard right now. Trying to speed it up and fit into a Collected Company shell would be challenging. When it comes to collected company in standard right now the landbase tends to favor being two color for the most part. I pull off Temur in part because mine is favoring green heavily and also thanks to Rattleclaw Mystic which acts as ramp, fix, and raptor support.
I think the landbase right now makes it tricky to be able to go three color with aggro strategies and not be splashing into colors. Mana Confluence is going to be something you would need to run in higher quantities to pull it off reliably but it also makes you more vulnerable to faster red decks as well as making it more of an option for the GR dragon decks to catch you in a damage race.
I personally have not put any testing into a GB deck yet so much as just provide a hypothetical build. I do think it looks like fun though but someone else would have to chime in on that offhand. If you wanted to post your list we could try to give it a once over but my thoughts on the landbase will probably still stand.
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[Modern] Allies
3 Ruthless Ripper
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
4 Grim Haruspex
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1 Archfiend of Depravity
3 Thoughtseize
Instant (6)
3 Ultimate Price
3 Hero's Downfall
Artifact (2)
2 Whip of Erebos
Lands (23)
8 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
6 Swamp
3 Temple of Malady
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bile Blight
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Merciless Executioner
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Ultimate Price
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Back to Nature
1 Archfiend of Depravity
1 Thoughtseize
I built my list originally to be more in the midrange camp. To make collected company work, maybe taking out some of the removal would be more ideal, perhaps with some other creature additions.
First, I think if you want to move it to being a Collected Company deck you probably want to look at what your targets are, the quantity of targets, and how good of a hit they are. Offhand the quantity and quality of your targets looks like it could be improved. I will go through the different cards you have in your deck and sort of what I think of hitting them in a collected company hit.
3 Ruthless Ripper - its far better to hit it to hand where you use it as a morph rez for the raptor. Its more aggressive than the Haruspex and can be used in combat decently which is nice but its not a very good hit in company.
3 Elvish Mystic - its all about the early game and by the time you company into it its almost a vanilla 1/1 where its only real purpose is going to be edict fodder, chump blocking, or swinging into an empty board.
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer - solid all arround creature. By the time you can company into it you will have some mana to be throwing about to play with its abilities. It might be vulnerable right when you fetch it but even then its going to put pressure on the control player quickly which is good. They arent great in multiples but people generally speaking have to move to remove them so having more is usually good.
4 Deathmist Raptor - its really good vs a lot of people right now. Abzan has good removal for it and it lacks a little bit of punch vs GR dragons who might try to race it. Generally speaking though its very versatile and strong.
4 Den Protector - they really want to be morphed rather than hit on company so it looses some power in a company but it still swings through tokens well which gives some harass power vs elspeth. If you run bestow creatures in deck hitting them in company gets a bit more powerful.
4 Grim Haruspex - its not great in combat but they are removal targets who can rez the raptors.
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller - cant hit it in company so its as good as a spell there.
1 Archfiend of Depravity cant hit it in company.
Offhand, your count looks low as we are looking at 22/60 as being targets but beyond that I think you have a lot of sort of weaker targets. You really are going to want to increase your count of potential targets and consider how good your targets will be if they are found in company to make company worth running. Its an extremely powerful effect but it does require you to design the deck around it some. Most of us have been running 25-27 targets on average main. That on average ends up being something like 23 lands with 10-12 whiffs. I think some of the lowest numbers that are seeing competitive play tend to be lists with 24 creatures of which 4 are mystics but I think this is getting very close to the point where you will start getting one target more often when using company.
The morph guys (other than raptor) are usually lower priority because they loose a lot of power when not morphed. I think you are running a bit heavy on your morph creatures too as I have been running 12 main (counting raptors) which is two other sets of morph creatures to fairly good results. You have the Den Protectors which is essentially the auto 4x in a raptor package but I think you are also too heavy beyond that. I would suggest you dont go beyond 12 mainboard targets as there are still a lot of matchups where you dont want to focus that much on your raptor game such as red sly or GR dragons. Abzan also has a strong removal package for them so if you focus too much on raptor rez you might not have a raptor to rez with all of your support. My own BG suggestion offhand ran 6 other non raptor morphs which means that there would be potentially 10 morph creatures including the raptors themselves. My suggestion is to lower your mainboard morph effects some and consider sideboarding some additional for the control matchup. Personally I still prefer Grim Haruspex over Ruthless Ripper as it stands but I think going beyond 3 of them seems excessive.
Archfiend of Depravity just needs to go as a whole. Its not going to cut it for standard.
Surrak, the Hunt Caller is alright but remember you have to keep your non company hits in check. He also tends to be easily removed right now by most of the spot removal seeing play and does not expand your own ability to remove problem threats. I think he is playable but keep him in check to probably 2x copies if you are going to run him. I think his best game tends to be vs GR dragons currently so I prefer him more in the SB than the main but it depends on what sort of results you are getting with him I suppose.
Spells - remember what I mentioned about spell count above. Generally speaking Collected Company decks limit themselves to 10 or so non land whiffs and Collected Company counts as 4 copies. You will want to cut into your spells to make this into a company deck. You can usually stretch this count to somewhere around 12 but keep in mind that if you dilute it too much you will start getting whiffs more frequently in the company casts which is usually a bad thing for a build around card.
Elvish Mystic - I acknowledge that its a fantastic card but I stand by that I don't care for it in a Company aggro build because it so rarely speeds us up enough in my mind. It is not good at attacking or defending and its entire relivance sort of spins on it being in an opening hand with a landbase that is friendly towards curving in well (aka ETB tapped lands are not very friendly with it). I personally still dislike it in company builds due to the lack of versatility to it. I do acknowledge though that some seem to like it so its really a matter of personal opinion of it but I guess my suggestion is to test it and see what you think of it.
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[Modern] Allies
I've looked over your initial G/B list and it does have me thinking, so depending on my results tomorrow I may just retire my initial deck idea and go for the more aggressive collected company list.
I find that I like to be in the 6-9 other target range generally speaking. Its nice to be able to buff the count in some way after sideboard as there are still matchups where recurring a raptor isn't as important so I don't like focusing it that hard.
When it comes to the WG build I think it tends to be between running the 4x Den Protectors and a lot of people are also running a few Hidden Dragonslayer + a few Mastery of the Unseen so I think the normal GW build tends to be something like 8-9 mainboard other options to revive them but it really depends on if you run the mastery or not which not all GW builds do.
I have been running 8 morphs myself in Temur but I think 6 other morph options is sort of the baseline of where you probably want to be for raptor.
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[Modern] Allies
3 servant of the scale
4 chronicler of heroes
4 den protector
4 deathmist raptor
4 avatar of the resolute
4 elvish mystic
1 warden of the first tree
2 hidden dragonslayer
2 inspiring call
4 collected company
4 dromokas command
(2) Planeswalkers
2 ajani, mentor of heroes
(22)
5 plains
4 windswept hearth
3 nykthos, shrine to nyx
10 forest
2 Windstorm
3 Reclimation Sage
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
2 Inspiring Call
3 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Hidden Dragonslayer
2 Arashin Cleric
Alright got to play some more matches against 2 more interesting deck types.
R/G dragons. This deck is easy, easier if you get a hidden dragonslayer on the field. They just can not execute as efficiently as this deck can. I might even go as far as cutting the arashin clerics based on how efficient this playtest performed.
A 3 Color deck based on fleecemace lion, siege rhino, anafensa the foremost, rakasha deathdealer, and approx 12-16x creature hate cards. This deck just kept me down long enough to beat me. I know that this deck is always a possibility due to the strength of the cards and the simplicity of the deck, despite the fact that control eats it as almost an auto win. I am working on aquireing more hornets nests as a good sideboard option against this type (and other rhinoy) decks. It will also help alot against the token swarm and other weenie rush decks too (like rabblemaster ) I am really liking the consistency and punch that the deck is providing now. It gives several good matchups and put pressure on very early. One way or another we will get collected company as a tier one deck.
@stormie_sarge I think your mana count is to low you really want to be curving out to 5 mana so you can play and flip den protector, play multiple spells in a turn and cast ajani on time
I have been runnikng the following
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Archetype of Courage
3 Hidden Dragonslayer
1 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Den Protector
2 Fleecemane Lion
3 Deathmist Raptor
2 Warden of the First Tree
3 Crater Elemental
1 Sunblade Elf
1 Chord of Calling
2 Citadel Siege
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
1 Mana Confluence
1 Forest
6 Plains
1 Banishing Light
1 Glare of Heresy
2 Hushwing Gryff
1 Radiant Purge
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Windstorm
4 Arashin Cleric
I was playing gw but there are a lot of stormbreaths in my local meta and that was a hard match. The addition of crater elementals to the main has made it so its not terrible now. I could have gone into abzan for removal but this gives something that collected company can hit, thats still ok removal and can be a decent threat in its own right. Although I would love to run both anafenza.
commands, windstorm and clerics are definite in the sb the rest is still a work in progress
the 12 scry lands help even out the draws , you can still play like a aggro deck as long as you dont get the all scry draw
White does have some issues with Stormbreath Dragon but I don't know if splashing red is going to be the answer. Netcaster Spider could possibly serve in place of the Crater Elemental without complicating your landbase.
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[Modern] Allies
8 Forest
5 Plains
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Windswept Heath
3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Hidden Dragonslayer
2 Warden of the First Tree
4 Dromoka's Command
2 Valorous Stance
I'm thinking of switching things up though. Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit has been an allstar so far, so not taking her out yet, but I will switch out a forest for another Blossoming Sands.
4x Heir of the Wilds
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Arashin Foremost
1x Yasova Dragonclaw
2x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
3x Den Protector
2x Boon Satyr
4x Deathmist Raptor
3x Elvish Mystic
Support (9)
1x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4x Collected Company
1x Ajani Steadfast
3x Dromoka's Command
4x Mana Confluence
4x Windswept Heath
1x Temple of Abandon
2x Temple of Plenty
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Plains
2x Mountain
5x Forest
2x Valorous Stance
4x Windstorm
3x Courser of Kruphix
1x Dromoka's Command
3x Hornet Nest
1x Den Protector
My experience has been mostly positive. I find that the deck matches up pretty well against other midrange/aggressive decks. Arashin Foremost catches many players off guard, and bringing it in mid-combat or at end step with CoCo can blow people out. After board, Hornet Nest and Courser help shore up some weaknesses against very aggressive decks.
Against control, the deck is bad. CoCo, Deathmist Raptor and Den Protector are the best weapons but they are pretty slow. Once the control player lands a Dig Through Time or Crux of Fate, it's really hard to come back. Alesha, Who Smiles at Death can bring back Foremost or Rabblemaster or Heir to add a little more resilience and card advantage against control decks, but it just isn't enough. I bring in Windstorm as a way to kill their Silumgars or Dragonlord Ojutais but it basically takes a whole turn and can just get Dissolved. Ugin and Ashiok are nigh unbeatable.
I've been thinking that an Abzan list might have a better shot, since that gives access to Thoughtseize and Abzan Charm. I'll probably try this next, with Blood-Chin Rager and Mardu Strike Leader in for Rabblemaster and Alesha. How do the other CoCo builds deal with control decks and what tricks do people use to beat them?
4 Den Protector
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Boon Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Savage Knuckleblade
SPELLS (10)
1 Icy Blast
2 Polymorphist's Jest
3 Temur Charm
4 Collected Company
3 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Island
2 Mana Confluence
2 Mountain
1 Shivan Reef
2 Temple of Mystery
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Windstorm
3 Stratus Dancer
2 Barrage of Boulders
3 Hornet Nest
2 Reclamation Sage
Match 1: red sly 0-2
Game one I had some issues with him removing my blockers and or killing them so I had a hard time blocking him most of the game. He got to go first as well which hurt. I almost stabilized but I got to 4 mana (no company) and I needed a 5th to rez a raptor to pull in multi blockers vs him one turn where he blew out my block and swing through for the last 6.
Game two I brought in a bunch of hate for him and was going first. Unfortunately I mulliganed to 4 cards and never found a hand with 2+ lands in it. I kept a 4 card hand and played one land and watched him perfect curve my face by like turn 4.
Match 2: Bye
Match 3: Mardu Control (superfriends)
Game 1 - I ended up with a hand with a Boon Sayter and 2x Collected Company. I luckily hit the land I needed to play sort of right when I needed to and got to play this one fine.
Game 2 - I had a slower start but I pushed threats one at a time to avoid being blown out by his Anger of the Gods I knew he pulled in. I moved to two threats with a face down Stratus Dancer which he pushed an Anger into next turn. Raptor and Den Protectors got me through this match as well. When he went to drop an Elspeth to try to drop blockers in my face I hit it with a Temur Charm counter. Den Protector with a counter on it was able to just beat him up so well due to the fact that it could swing through his blockers.
Its not much of a game report considering I only got two matches but it was a casual even since we couldn't launch it due to our player count. The land screw vs sly was really unfortunate as I was really banking on a good game two so just rolling over and taking its sort of not something I can deal with. I have been thinking about bumping my land count up one and running 24 lands as it seems like I have been having issues with that on a somewhat regular basis.
Mine has been doing well overall and it seems to have a good match vs control and a lot of midrange builds but occasionally it feels slow to get off the ground and the lack of decent removal effects that I would want to run main sort of hurts too. As another note, the sideboarded Stubborn Denial feels a little less effective than when I originally added them back when I was running Frost Walker. Frost Walker is also better vs most control decks so I might have to move the Stubborn Denial to being Negate instead.
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[Modern] Allies
3 Hidden Dragonslayer
4 Dragon Hunter
4 Arashin Foremost
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
3 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Heir of the Wilds
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Warden of the First Tree
Spells (12)
4 Atarka's Command
4 Collected Company
4 Become Immense
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Plenty
4 Battlefield Forge
2 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Plains
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Roast
2 Twin Bolt
2 Windstorm
2 Ruthless Instincts
2 Ride Down
1 Scouring Sands
The premise is getting any 1 warrior in with double strike for a become immense buff for 16 damage in 1 swing as early as turn 4. 2 creatures with double strike and an atarka's is always good for 15 as well (3/3 double x2 with 3 burn from spell). The fetches fix your mana, speed you play (minimal tap lands), and fuel become immense. Your creatures attack profitably anytime double strike is involved, and it only takes one unblocked creature to win. Collected company, high creature density, and Alesha do the rest. Its very possible to out grind big midrange decks (post-board) as well. I've had good success with this build on cockatrice and FNM, but I'll admit I haven't gotten to go to any tournaments.
Control is just getting something to connect when they are tapped out, coco when they get greedy enough to play a dragon is perfect since you should only need 1 connecting creature by that point anyway.
Windstorm and maindeck atarka's command lets you handle any and all fliers.
Dragonslayer is very versatile, either gaining life or as mana sink for removal. Like alesha, you typically play him late game, preferably face down or when arashin is already on board.
CoCo mid combat for double strike is something almost no one sees coming and just wins games. Its a risky play you use when you know your going to lose in 1-2 turns if you don't finish them. Its still mostly used on their EoT to restock however.
I think if you want to push for aggro 3 color you are going to need to consider 3-4 Mana Confluence. Soldier of the Pantheon is also generally speaking superior to most of the one drops in here assuming you are planning on facing Abzan which has been making up a large portion of the meta right now and considering they are midrange creatures they seem like they would be an issue for this sort of build. I think it would be worthwhile to work them into the list.
Your choice to go with red instead of black for a tribal warrior build seems a little odd to me still based on all of the amazing support black lends. Red has some warriors but little to nothing added to the tribe itself. Battle Brawler, Blood-Chin Rager, Bloodsoaked Champion, Chief of the Edge, and Chief of the Scale seem tempting to me. I think Blood-Chin Rager and Chief of the Edge just add a lot of depth and reach to the warriors.
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[Modern] Allies