Sam Pardee posted videos of a similar deck on ChannelFireball. He went 1&2. The one he won was like pure luck. Deck looked atrociously bad in every scenario. Which is confusing because in this thread there seem to be a lot of really great builds. Was he just playing a sub-par list? He certainly wasn't getting unlucky with draws. Just seemed really durdly and underpowered.
I'm not a huge fan of his build, and think that it may be sub-optimal, but I've had bad days with the deck as well. There seems to be a high amount of variance in the deck.
Just went 4-0 in another standard MTGO daily. Beat mono-red aggro, some 4 color thing with rhinos and dragons, then atarka's command mono-red aggro, then the new 5 color dragon thing in the 3-0 final bracket. That was the only match where I lost a game; game 2, I brought in the counter suite and was ready to go to town, and on like turn 4 or 5 he dropped Dragonlord Dromoka. I was sad. Still, crushed the next game (and brought my Valorous Stances in).
Arashin Cleric is so good against mono-red that it isn't even funny. As I get more and more used to that match up, I'm finding it almost impossible to lose.
I made one small, small change to my list, because I wanted to see how Rattleclaw Mystic played, and it was satisfying when I had it. I boarded it out against Mono-Red, but it was impressive.
Some next-leveling advice - Esper Dragons could go a couple of different ways to try and deal with this deck (and other Raptor/Protector package deals) - Ashiok, and Perilous Vault. So it may be a good idea to come prepared with sideboard answers to these cards.
Arashin Cleric is so good against mono-red that it isn't even funny. As I get more and more used to that match up, I'm finding it almost impossible to lose.
I played some games last night with essentially the Sam Pardee list. I found that I was basically 50/50 vs Atarka Red. Sam's suggested SB plan for the match is +1 Dromoka's Command, +2 Arashin Cleric, -2 Valorous Stance, -1 Disdainful Stroke, which is what I did for the match as well. I feel like another Cleric or two post board (to replace Mastery?) would improve the match. What's your SB plan vs Atarka/Mono Red? I'm guessing you bring in Ojutai's Command, but holding up four mana and hoping they attempt to cast a creature spell seems wrong to me.
I also found that I was about even vs an Abzan Morph deck. Any "secret techs" when facing another Morph/Mastery deck? (Maybe this is another spot for Ojutai's Command?)
I like the idea of Stratus Dancer main, replacing some instant/sorcery. I think I will give that a try next.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
Arashin Cleric is so good against mono-red that it isn't even funny. As I get more and more used to that match up, I'm finding it almost impossible to lose.
I played some games last night with essentially the Sam Pardee list. I found that I was basically 50/50 vs Atarka Red. Sam's suggested SB plan for the match is +1 Dromoka's Command, +2 Arashin Cleric, -2 Valorous Stance, -1 Disdainful Stroke, which is what I did for the match as well. I feel like another Cleric or two post board (to replace Mastery?) would improve the match. What's your SB plan vs Atarka/Mono Red? I'm guessing you bring in Ojutai's Command, but holding up four mana and hoping they attempt to cast a creature spell seems wrong to me.
I also found that I was about even vs an Abzan Morph deck. Any "secret techs" when facing another Morph/Mastery deck? (Maybe this is another spot for Ojutai's Command?)
I like the idea of Stratus Dancer main, replacing some instant/sorcery. I think I will give that a try next.
I find that more than anything, I'm returning a creature with Ojutai's Command, not counting a creature. My strategy against them is to throw down Den Protector for 1G and chump - all I'm trying to do is trade and get to the later stages of the game. I'll chump with elves too, given the chance.
I don't have a lot of experience against other morph decks. Not a lot of people are playing the Protector/Raptor package on MTGO yet.
Good weekend for this deck... I think 5 or 6 top 16 finishes at the two grand prix? The best part is the lists are all different. I especially like the one running Ajani Steadfast. I may try that out in mine!
Has anyone played Temur Sabertooth in the Sarruk/Whisperwood slots? Thinking that it would be useful for returning Den Protectors to my hand to recast as morphs and take more cards back from the graveyard. Also useful for putting manifested spells into hand.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
I don't expect it's good. I might consider replacing a Surrak only because it fits my game plan of casting a morph and holding up mana for an instant or a flip. In that case it also serves to void any removal. But in the end, how valuable is "5GG: return a card from graveyard to hand, but only if its your turn and you have a den protector"? I guess you can also reset a Stratus Dancer.
Speaking of which, how much are people liking Stratus Dancer? I feel like I would rather have Negate but I'm not sure. Vs Esper, it feels lame to have your Dancer countered. Also, it comes online too late for some threats, and can't stop Walkers or Enchantments. Especially I want an idea of which matchups its best and worst in.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
There's a part of me that really, really wants to run Rattleclaw Mystic instead of Sylvan Caryatid, but I don't think that my Atarka Red matchup would survive the switch. For right now, the 1-3 split has been very satisfying.
I'm still not convinced it's a problem. Play your Rattleclaw, block, and some red creature is killed. If it's tokens, play as a morph, block, and kill one each turn. Caryatid blocks and doesn't diminish the attacking force at all, meaning just as many creatures are getting through for damage, and the one you failed to kill will deal its damage whenever you tap Caryatid (or it gets pumped and Caryatid dies). I guess the worst case is Wild Slash or Lightning Strike taking out the Rattleclaw so all their creatures get through, but then fewer creatures are getting played out.
So then the last bit: How much do you value that point of ramp?
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Anyone with access to Star City premium should read Gerry Thompson's article. I gather he thinks the deck needs rebuilding, possibly by removing the mana guy entirely. I don't have access, so I'm stuck.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
So! I just wrapped up the MOCS Season 5 preliminary with a 5-1 record, so I'll be moving on to the finals in a few days. I actually accidentally submitted my old list, and not my new list so here's the deck and a few notes about my matches:
Round 1 - Esper Dragons - 2-0. Game one was over very quickly, with my opponent never finding answers at the right time. A well timed flip of Stratus Dancer sealed things. Game two went much longer, but I got there on the back of the recursion engine. Was able to play through a Dragonlord Ojutai and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, as well as recover from a resolved Crux of Fate, thanks to Mastery of the Unseen going nuts - I had a Sylvan Caryatid (as my only untapped mana source) and a manifested Elvish Mystic on the table. He had swung with his Ojutai, bringing me to 13, and he casts Bile Blight on my manifest. I flip it, bring back a Raptor, cast Surrak, the Hunt Caller the next turn and swing for lethal.
Round 2 - Mono-Red - 0-2. I was crushed. His draws were explosive, and his Goblin Heelcutter plays were perfectly timed. I never got a foothold in either game. My hands were clunky - in retrospect, I should have more aggressively mulliganed into more two drop action, but I did not, and I paid for it both games. He ended up going 3-2-Drop, which I was sad to see, because he played against my deck - which I believe has a pretty good match against his - very well.
Round 3 - Abzan Control w/ Deathmist/Protectors - 2-0. Game one went for a long, long time - I had all four Deathmist Raptor in my graveyard and back on the field at various times. I was at three life when I finally landed a Mastery of the Unseen, he landed an Elspeth, Sun's Champion the next turn, so we went back and forth for quite sometime, him chumping my three attackers with his three tokens until Elspeth was at 7 and he ultimated, flipped a Den Protector, and replayed Elspeth in the same turn. My life total at that point however was nearing 50, and he was hovering at something like 8, so I was able to deliver a surprise kill with an unmorphed Surrak, The Hunt Caller and a Den Protector that I loaded up with Dromoka's Command +1/+1 counters. The second game, I ran him over with Lions and Raptors, and countered his Elspeth.
Round 4 - UB Control - 2-0. The UBx deck without Ojutai is a lot easier for us to beat, even though he came prepared for Deathmist/Protector shenanigans with maindeck Dissipate and Silence the Believers. These games weren't even close.
Round 5 - Mono-Red - 2-0. Both very quick games. Game one, he concedes when I land my second Courser of Kruphix and a Mastery of the Unseen at 13 life. Game two, he's stuck on one land for a couple turns, then two lands for a couple more turns, and I live the dream of casting Ojutai's Command to return Arashin Cleric. He concedes.
Round 1 - Jeskai Tokens - 1-2. Kept clunky hands, got burned out, eaten by Mantis Riders, etc.
Round 2 - Abzan Whip - 2-0. First game went half an hour and ended with me at 215 life. Good times. Second one I went aggro beatdown and sealed it in 4 minutes.
Round 3 - Abzan Megamorph - 2-1. Being on the play or the draw determined the winners here, with Fleecemane + Dromoka's Command your creature being the opening play for each of us, each game.
Round 4 - GW Collected Company - 2-0. Ajani got me there game one, stalled board state + 20/20 Warden of the First Tree got me past two hornets nests in game two.
I don't know if your mana is good for 2UU, but you're missing out on what for me is a sideboard all-star. I bring in Clever Impersonator against midrange and control decks of all colors, and I'm always happy when I do. Getting a second Whisperwood is fine, but copying an enemy dragon, or Whip, or Sarkhan is just excellent. Too bad your Surrak and Ojutai are legendary as they would have been great to copy also. I'm running Prognostic Sphinx over Ojutai, and having two of them is always fun times.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I play against this deck a lot on MTGO (have never piloted it) and I have to say that this deck always feels like it has 1 too many colours in it. Ojutai seems way out of place and too high up on the curve. I'm just going to assume it's good against some other decks that I don't play, but every time I see it I'm thinking, man any random morph at all would be better, plus the mana would be better.
Maybe I'm crazy, but the GW builds seem way more consistent...
I'm about the only one in the world running a GU version. I concur that being 2 colors does make mana easy. I also completely value counterspells and run Boon Satyrs so I always have access to counter magic when I need to, without wasting mana too often.
If the downside of GW is no counters, the downside of GU is limited removal options, especially Dromoka's Command. Usually this isn't a problem, given big creatures and counterspells, but sometimes it's awkward.
My Sphinx is more hardy than Ojutai for a midrange game. I can freely attack with it, and it can't be killed short of a board sweeper, even when attacking. Regarding the proposal to cut Ojutai: As a 5-drop, it is the top of the curve, but I feel it's necessary in a world of dragons to also have flyers on defense. It's also insanely good at generating value when attacking.
You could drop these cards and focus more on being aggro like Craig did with GW company. I won't deny the power of that approach. I'm not sure how Bant midrange copes with that deck. For my part, running more Coursers, Polukranos, Sphinx as tough blockers, and 5 maindeck answers to Company helps. This is less aggro (Wescoe's specialty), but still effective.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I totally missed that article, thanks for the link!
I'm not a huge fan of his build, and think that it may be sub-optimal, but I've had bad days with the deck as well. There seems to be a high amount of variance in the deck.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Arashin Cleric is so good against mono-red that it isn't even funny. As I get more and more used to that match up, I'm finding it almost impossible to lose.
I made one small, small change to my list, because I wanted to see how Rattleclaw Mystic played, and it was satisfying when I had it. I boarded it out against Mono-Red, but it was impressive.
Current list:
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fleecemane Lion
1 Whisperwood Elemental
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Stratus Dancer
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Negate
3 Dromoka's Command
2 Mastery of the Unseen
land
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Temple of Plenty
1 Blossoming Sands
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Encase in Ice
2 Ojutai's Command
3 Valorous Stance
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Arashin Cleric
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
I played some games last night with essentially the Sam Pardee list. I found that I was basically 50/50 vs Atarka Red. Sam's suggested SB plan for the match is +1 Dromoka's Command, +2 Arashin Cleric, -2 Valorous Stance, -1 Disdainful Stroke, which is what I did for the match as well. I feel like another Cleric or two post board (to replace Mastery?) would improve the match. What's your SB plan vs Atarka/Mono Red? I'm guessing you bring in Ojutai's Command, but holding up four mana and hoping they attempt to cast a creature spell seems wrong to me.
I also found that I was about even vs an Abzan Morph deck. Any "secret techs" when facing another Morph/Mastery deck? (Maybe this is another spot for Ojutai's Command?)
I like the idea of Stratus Dancer main, replacing some instant/sorcery. I think I will give that a try next.
I find that more than anything, I'm returning a creature with Ojutai's Command, not counting a creature. My strategy against them is to throw down Den Protector for 1G and chump - all I'm trying to do is trade and get to the later stages of the game. I'll chump with elves too, given the chance.
I don't have a lot of experience against other morph decks. Not a lot of people are playing the Protector/Raptor package on MTGO yet.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Speaking of which, how much are people liking Stratus Dancer? I feel like I would rather have Negate but I'm not sure. Vs Esper, it feels lame to have your Dancer countered. Also, it comes online too late for some threats, and can't stop Walkers or Enchantments. Especially I want an idea of which matchups its best and worst in.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
So then the last bit: How much do you value that point of ramp?
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Fleecemane Lion
1 Whisperwood Elemental
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Warden of the First Tree
noncreature
3 Dromoka's Command
2 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Valorous Stance
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Temple of Plenty
1 Blossoming Sands
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Encase in Ice
1 Ojutai's Command
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Arashin Cleric
1 Negate
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Stratus Dancer
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fleecemane Lion
1 Whisperwood Elemental
1 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Stratus Dancer
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
1 Negate
3 Dromoka's Command
2 Mastery of the Unseen
land
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Temple of Plenty
1 Blossoming Sands
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Encase in Ice
2 Ojutai's Command
3 Valorous Stance
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Arashin Cleric
Round 1 - Esper Dragons - 2-0. Game one was over very quickly, with my opponent never finding answers at the right time. A well timed flip of Stratus Dancer sealed things. Game two went much longer, but I got there on the back of the recursion engine. Was able to play through a Dragonlord Ojutai and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver, as well as recover from a resolved Crux of Fate, thanks to Mastery of the Unseen going nuts - I had a Sylvan Caryatid (as my only untapped mana source) and a manifested Elvish Mystic on the table. He had swung with his Ojutai, bringing me to 13, and he casts Bile Blight on my manifest. I flip it, bring back a Raptor, cast Surrak, the Hunt Caller the next turn and swing for lethal.
Round 2 - Mono-Red - 0-2. I was crushed. His draws were explosive, and his Goblin Heelcutter plays were perfectly timed. I never got a foothold in either game. My hands were clunky - in retrospect, I should have more aggressively mulliganed into more two drop action, but I did not, and I paid for it both games. He ended up going 3-2-Drop, which I was sad to see, because he played against my deck - which I believe has a pretty good match against his - very well.
Round 3 - Abzan Control w/ Deathmist/Protectors - 2-0. Game one went for a long, long time - I had all four Deathmist Raptor in my graveyard and back on the field at various times. I was at three life when I finally landed a Mastery of the Unseen, he landed an Elspeth, Sun's Champion the next turn, so we went back and forth for quite sometime, him chumping my three attackers with his three tokens until Elspeth was at 7 and he ultimated, flipped a Den Protector, and replayed Elspeth in the same turn. My life total at that point however was nearing 50, and he was hovering at something like 8, so I was able to deliver a surprise kill with an unmorphed Surrak, The Hunt Caller and a Den Protector that I loaded up with Dromoka's Command +1/+1 counters. The second game, I ran him over with Lions and Raptors, and countered his Elspeth.
Round 4 - UB Control - 2-0. The UBx deck without Ojutai is a lot easier for us to beat, even though he came prepared for Deathmist/Protector shenanigans with maindeck Dissipate and Silence the Believers. These games weren't even close.
Round 5 - Mono-Red - 2-0. Both very quick games. Game one, he concedes when I land my second Courser of Kruphix and a Mastery of the Unseen at 13 life. Game two, he's stuck on one land for a couple turns, then two lands for a couple more turns, and I live the dream of casting Ojutai's Command to return Arashin Cleric. He concedes.
Round 6 - Mono-Red - 2-0. Game one brought me to around 10 before I was able to stabalize with two Courser of Kruphix and a Mastery of the Unseen. I like to aggressively drop my Den Protectors, Stratus Dancers, and Rattleclaw Mystics as chumpers in these games, and it paid off. He was in top deck mode and I was able to mow him down with four hits from Dragonlord Ojutai.
I don't know that I would've been able to win those mono-red matchups without the power of a blocking Sylvan Caryatid.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
Round 1 - Jeskai Tokens - 1-2. Kept clunky hands, got burned out, eaten by Mantis Riders, etc.
Round 2 - Abzan Whip - 2-0. First game went half an hour and ended with me at 215 life. Good times. Second one I went aggro beatdown and sealed it in 4 minutes.
Round 3 - Abzan Megamorph - 2-1. Being on the play or the draw determined the winners here, with Fleecemane + Dromoka's Command your creature being the opening play for each of us, each game.
Round 4 - GW Collected Company - 2-0. Ajani got me there game one, stalled board state + 20/20 Warden of the First Tree got me past two hornets nests in game two.
Current list:
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Den Protector
2 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Fleecemane Lion
1 Whisperwood Elemental
4 Rattleclaw Mystic
2 Warden of the First Tree
noncreatures
3 Dromoka's Command
2 Mastery of the Unseen
1 Valorous Stance
1 Ajani Steadfast
4 Yavimaya Coast
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
4 Temple of Plenty
1 Blossoming Sands
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Glare of Heresy
3 Disdainful Stroke
2 Encase in Ice
1 Ojutai's Command
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Arashin Cleric
1 Negate
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Stratus Dancer
Oh, in the MOCS finals I went 1-4-Drop, lol. Got stomped by a couple collected company decks and that five color dragon deck. Beat Atarka red.
GWU Bant Manifest - The Future Is Here. Or it will be at the end of turn. GWU
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Maybe I'm crazy, but the GW builds seem way more consistent...
If the downside of GW is no counters, the downside of GU is limited removal options, especially Dromoka's Command. Usually this isn't a problem, given big creatures and counterspells, but sometimes it's awkward.
My Sphinx is more hardy than Ojutai for a midrange game. I can freely attack with it, and it can't be killed short of a board sweeper, even when attacking. Regarding the proposal to cut Ojutai: As a 5-drop, it is the top of the curve, but I feel it's necessary in a world of dragons to also have flyers on defense. It's also insanely good at generating value when attacking.
You could drop these cards and focus more on being aggro like Craig did with GW company. I won't deny the power of that approach. I'm not sure how Bant midrange copes with that deck. For my part, running more Coursers, Polukranos, Sphinx as tough blockers, and 5 maindeck answers to Company helps. This is less aggro (Wescoe's specialty), but still effective.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG