Is anyone running Collected Company with the walls and Assault Formation? If so is it worth it? Seems like it could be decent to grab a couple walls at once at instant speed...?
As a matter of fact, I am. This seemed like the most fun thing to do in standard. On my phone right now, but I will post my decklist tomorrow.
After turn 5 this deck starts to struggle a little I need some cards to draw into more gass. Was thinking about Dig through Time and cutting my Omenspeakers since at the moment they don't really bring much to the table.
Military Intelligence is a decent card draw card for this deck. You'll almost always have two creatures swinging, so it's a source of continual card draw. Additionally, if you have Ornithopters with no Ensouls, it turns them into card draw. Alternatively, Anticipate is a cantrip with choices. Dig Through Time may work, but since most of your deck is made up of permanents and no fetches, you'll be less likely to have delve fuel.
I too plan to side in Den Protector, but for its ability to get Assault Formation from the graveyard. Is this why it is good against control? Note also that I am not concerned with Commune with the Gods filling the graveyard, I plan to run Foul Renewal
I did notice something interesting as I watched the Magic Show on Youtube. Evan went through the Providence,RI StarCityGames Invitational. There was only one enchantment "love" card in anyone's main deck, a Reclamation Sage. In the sideboards, if my memory is correct, only two Erase.
I am main decking two Negate and one Disipate. Does this make sense for game 1? I hope to play this deck this coming sunday for the Monthly win a box promotion at my LGS. While I have done 2 prereleases, I have never played stand apart from the Kitchen table. As a new player, I must admit that I do not understand control decks, and it looks like we are going to see a lot of them.
edit I added one Delta and took out 1 Dismal edit I found another Delta
I am not comfortable with 10 tap lands so I need to Get two Polluted Delta to replace the Dismal Backwater. I am also considering just adding Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to replace a swamp. SO I have not yet followed Sting's advice to reduce tap lands even more by removing some Temples.
How does the combat phase with assault formation work? Say I attack with my sylvan Caryatid and he blocks with a 2/2. The powertoughness of my Caryatid goes down to 0/1 because of 2 damage from the blocker? So my Caryatid can only do 1 Damage? So does his 2/2 survive?
How does the combat phase with assault formation work? Say I attack with my sylvan Caryatid and he blocks with a 2/2. The powertoughness of my Caryatid goes down to 0/1 because of 2 damage from the blocker? So my Caryatid can only do 1 Damage? So does his 2/2 survive?
The toughness of your creature doesn't change based on damage on it. It's easier to understand and calculate lethal damage that way, but incorrect. Your Caryatid will deal 3 damage because it's toughness is 3 at the time. Excluding actual toughness reducing effects like Flanking.
I threw a version of this together a week ago to try out the Assault/Ascendancy combo. (Hence why what you see is so budgeted.) That combo is bonkers! Obviously the mana is screwy, but this is the most fun I've had in standard in a long time. I've only run it through other casual decks on MTGO, but it feels like something good is at work. I'd probably rearrange the basics and Wilds into proper fetches, maybe rearrange the mana-base for Courser of Kruphix if possible. Muckdraggers has been surprisingly good, but it can probably just be Tasigur instead. Kin-Tree has been a very useful second option for putting pressure on the opponent. Mastery hasn't actually been relevant in any of my matches yet, but the casual queues aren't exactly loaded with optimal control decks. The idea is to have a mana-sink/creature producer in case you (a) need to go wide with Assault and/or (b) need bodies to trigger Ascendancy. (They aren't tokens, so it all works out.)
Anyway, I realize this is a budget list (I'm working on making it not so, now that I know it works) and that it's a bizarre approach (and colorful as a luau), but it's both fun and powerful. Try it out.
Played a kitchen table multiplayer game last night with a GUw build. Went up against WB Warriors and DragonFlayer. Everything was going well during the early game, with a Nyx-Fleece Ram, Dragon's Eye Savants, Prophet of Kruphix and a Sidisi's Faithful (which had exploited an earlier Sidisi's Faithful to bounce a Nyx Weaver to protect a Kiora). Assault didn't come out for probably seven or eight turns, but when it did, it changed a lot. Then a flashed in Profaner of the Dead exploiting the Savants cleared the board of everything, including an attacking Kologhan.
From there I think I screwed up. Instead of attacking one person and killing them outright, I split my forces and tried to be fair about damage. Both decks bounced back while I drew two more copies of Assault Formation. The Dragon deck had so much graveyard recursion it was ridiculous, and the Warrior deck came back with six creatures swinging for lifelink, four of them with double strike.
Anyway, if I had been ruthless I probably would have won the turn after Formation came down. Here's the list I ran (still needs tweaking, I think):
I think I'll add one or two more ways to draw cards, maybe another Dig Through Time and Monastery Siege each, and take out one of each of the counter spells. Also might put Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard for some graveyard hate, because that's what really killed me, dragons coming back three or four times after being killed. Or maybe replace the other two counter spells with Reality Shift to just exile the buggers.
How does the deck perform against flyers? Cause I don't see anything besides banishing light to deal with it.
Well, the only flyers that matter much in the format are dragons, Mantis Rider, and Ashcloud Phoenix. The general plan is to combo out before their fliers kill you, but Crater Elemental has taken out a large number of Mantis Riders in the games I've played. It hasn't been a huge concern, really; when I'm dying to Dragons, its because they're a control deck that's taken control.
@Rush_Clasic
I like your idea but i think is a bit too greedy run a 4 color.
If we consider the optimal manabase we need (more or less):
13 G/W/R sources for a T2 play
16 B sources for a T5 Sidisi
So, as you can see, we need many many sources. If we add Courser of Kruphix we also need 19G.
Your deck runs the following sources (considering Evolving Wilds as "fetchs", 0.8 each): B 14 R 8 G 13 W 13
So you may have some problem with R mana and some little problem casting Sidisi, Undead Vizier on T5.
If we consider the CIPT lands we lose tempo half of the times (12/24 lands)
Add some fetchs can reduce the tempo loss but increase the life loss and decrease our possibilities against aggressive decks.
It definitely is a greedy build, color-wise. I've taken out the Banishing Lights and added two more lands recently to make things a bit more consistent. I was worried about flooding out in earlier builds, but the extra bits of card advantage added since the early builds help with that. The deck probably wants some small number of Mana Confluence as well.
Your numbers are a bit off. The only turn-two plays that matter in the deck are green and white; red has nothing until turn 3. I'd also consider the Caryatids around 0.5 a non-green color; they've been the most important component to fixing the mana-problems. So, I agree that the heavily devoted single-color cards (Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Courser of Kruphix, etc.) have a difficult time existing in this deck since the focus is on a 4-color spread. But I also think the mana is mostly doable without them. (Sidisi has been good for me as late-game insurance, but it also doesn't exactly have great exploit support.)
So, long Story short:
Is really needed a 4th color in this build?
In my opinion we can run a tricolor deck with enough consistency but add a 4th color for a cute sinergy is a bit too much. Mardu Ascendancy in this deck is just a win-a-more card. because it is useless alone and good only if we are already in a good position.
This just hasn't been the case in my testing. Ascendancy has slammed the door on games that were stalemates. It's produced quick combo kills. I realize that there's some awkwardness to it, that there's something to be gained by just playing more straight-forward threats. But this has been working out WELL. It is weaker to control since there's so much reliance on the combo. That's something that needs to be addressed. And Ascendancy does have weaknesses outside of the combo. All things I think that can be addressed. Regardless, the deck has been showing off in my testing and I think there's possibility for it to at least be an interesting fringe option. There's the possibility that it wants its own thread, but this feels like a better place to start.
I'm definitely not saying that the combo is guaranteed to be competitive. But it's shown some promise.
I didn't consider your post rude. You provided sincere reasoning and stats to back up your position. Let's just say I'm not ready to give up the dream of this combo just yet.
As for results: I've mostly played against a bunch of casual decks, which is hardly the best evidence, but I've played against a few tiered decks. Remember that I built this version on a budget and am now looking to spruce it up. To start, the mana is indeed a problem. Because of the combo nature, I think starting from 4 Mana Confluence is probably the way to go. I built it to just disregard the first turn, and I think that might remain the standard, but being slowed until turn 3 is such a nightmare.
Because of the combo nature, the deck has had real issues the few times I've played against UBx control. A countered Assault Formation just ruins the deck at times. Gx Devotion has also been a struggle, with them being able to flood the board beyond any ability to sneak by.
Where the deck has succeeded is in stalling early assaults with its huge defenders and in comboing past midrange decks. Because it doesn't take a lot of bodies to get rolling, the deck can win easily out of nowhere.
There are tons of classic issues, of course, and I should at least read through more of this thread for further ideas. The key will be in finding ways to make both enchantments good with the creatures in the deck. I originally leaned heavily toward Formation, but that doesn't have to be the case, I think.
Anyway, it's a casual dream that's been winning a lot (though against lesser decks) and any help it making it work would be appreciated. I'm not looking to play another Formation deck; not yet, at least.
EDIT: Thinking about it more, this combo would really have to veer away from the 0/X creatures in order to work organically. I've had time to assemble it against bad decks, but there have been plenty of games where I have an Ascendancy and attacking just isn't worthwhile. So perhaps X/X+1 bodies are just better for my needs.
I went 1/4 at a pptq. Red was just too fast, Dragon esper was not as big a problem as I thought, but I still lost to it. My one win was against mono green counters. Mirror mockery over performed and commune underperformed, not that the sample was large enough to really know.
I am thinking about green white with a heroic sub theme for my next attempt. Dropping the curve and making things go faster.
I think I have an idea that can work. Playing Sultai with multiple angles of attack.
Phenax, milling with tough creatures
Ashiok
Assault Formation
Sidisi, Undead Vizier-get the card you need (4/6 deathtouch)
Courser of Kruphix
Profaner of the Dead - exploit to buy time
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Whip of Erebos
Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Wall of Frost, 0/7
Missing cards can be typical Sultai reanimator tools. So basically play a grindy defensive mill game where you can suddenly flip into an all-in-one kill.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I know I saw an Assault Formation deck tech from one of the SCG Opens, I remember it, in part, because the guy called it "Junk in the Trunk" which may not be original but caught my attention. I have searched through the coverage and done a deck search and can't find the deck tech. I also skimmed through this thread.
Can anyone remember which event the deck tech was from?
Thanks.
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"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
As a matter of fact, I am. This seemed like the most fun thing to do in standard. On my phone right now, but I will post my decklist tomorrow.
Military Intelligence is a decent card draw card for this deck. You'll almost always have two creatures swinging, so it's a source of continual card draw. Additionally, if you have Ornithopters with no Ensouls, it turns them into card draw. Alternatively, Anticipate is a cantrip with choices. Dig Through Time may work, but since most of your deck is made up of permanents and no fetches, you'll be less likely to have delve fuel.
What does Kiora do for you?
4 Opulent Palace
4 Temple of Mystery
3 Polluted Delta
1 Mana Confluence
6 Island
3 Swamp
3 Forest
edit I added one Delta and took out 1 Dismal edit I found another Delta
I am not comfortable with 10 tap lands so I need to Get two Polluted Delta to replace the Dismal Backwater. I am also considering just adding Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to replace a swamp. SO I have not yet followed Sting's advice to reduce tap lands even more by removing some Temples.
Here is my current list.
4 Sidisi's Faithful
3 Dragon's Eye Savants
2 Updraft Elemental
1 Wall of Frost
1 Clever Impersonator
1 Lillian Vess
2 Phenax, God of Deception
2 Torrent Elemental
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
Edit I added one torrent elemental and remove one Updraft Elemental
1 Mirror Mockery
3 Commune with the gods
1 Dissipate
1 Negate
1 Disdainful Stroke
4 Assault Formation
3 Sultai Charm
3 Kin-Tree Invocation
This leaves me one slot for something.
My side board
2 Profaner of the Dead
1 Foul Renewal
1 Den Protecter
I have two Green Speciality spells that I need to replace a plummet and a Pinion Feast
1 Dissipate
1 Negate
1 Bile Blight
2 Drown in Sorrows
2 Self Inflicted Wounds
2 Encase in Ice
I am not sure what I need to remove to add some Triton's Tactics, Become Immense or Shape the Sands. So I need to ask if my plan to buy two Polluted Delta and a Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth makes any sense.
I do have 3 Hero's Downfall I could use as well. I feel like I need to add three cards for that one spot and do not know what to take out.
The toughness of your creature doesn't change based on damage on it. It's easier to understand and calculate lethal damage that way, but incorrect. Your Caryatid will deal 3 damage because it's toughness is 3 at the time. Excluding actual toughness reducing effects like Flanking.
I am taking this to fnm to see how it works vs real decks. I'll let you know how it goes.
PLeae keep posting your testing though, we need the info.
4 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Crater Elemental
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Sibsig Muckdraggers
Other Spells (20)
4 Assault Formation
4 Commune with the Gods
4 Kin-Tree Invocation
2 Mastery of the Unseen
4 Mardu Ascendancy
2 Banishing Light
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Nomad Outpost
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
6 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Mountain
I threw a version of this together a week ago to try out the Assault/Ascendancy combo. (Hence why what you see is so budgeted.) That combo is bonkers! Obviously the mana is screwy, but this is the most fun I've had in standard in a long time. I've only run it through other casual decks on MTGO, but it feels like something good is at work. I'd probably rearrange the basics and Wilds into proper fetches, maybe rearrange the mana-base for Courser of Kruphix if possible. Muckdraggers has been surprisingly good, but it can probably just be Tasigur instead. Kin-Tree has been a very useful second option for putting pressure on the opponent. Mastery hasn't actually been relevant in any of my matches yet, but the casual queues aren't exactly loaded with optimal control decks. The idea is to have a mana-sink/creature producer in case you (a) need to go wide with Assault and/or (b) need bodies to trigger Ascendancy. (They aren't tokens, so it all works out.)
Anyway, I realize this is a budget list (I'm working on making it not so, now that I know it works) and that it's a bizarre approach (and colorful as a luau), but it's both fun and powerful. Try it out.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
From there I think I screwed up. Instead of attacking one person and killing them outright, I split my forces and tried to be fair about damage. Both decks bounced back while I drew two more copies of Assault Formation. The Dragon deck had so much graveyard recursion it was ridiculous, and the Warrior deck came back with six creatures swinging for lifelink, four of them with double strike.
Anyway, if I had been ruthless I probably would have won the turn after Formation came down. Here's the list I ran (still needs tweaking, I think):
3 Dragon's Eye Savants
3 Hornet Nest
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Profaner of the Dead
1 Prophet of Kruphix
4 Sidisi's Faithful
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Wall of Frost
4 Assault Formation
1 Monastery Siege
Spells
4 Commune With The Gods
2 Dissolve
1 Dig Through Time
2 Negate
2 Shape the Sands
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Land
5 Forest
5 Island
3 Plains
4 Temple of Mystery
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mana Confluence
1 Yavimaya Coast
I think I'll add one or two more ways to draw cards, maybe another Dig Through Time and Monastery Siege each, and take out one of each of the counter spells. Also might put Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard for some graveyard hate, because that's what really killed me, dragons coming back three or four times after being killed. Or maybe replace the other two counter spells with Reality Shift to just exile the buggers.
Well, the only flyers that matter much in the format are dragons, Mantis Rider, and Ashcloud Phoenix. The general plan is to combo out before their fliers kill you, but Crater Elemental has taken out a large number of Mantis Riders in the games I've played. It hasn't been a huge concern, really; when I'm dying to Dragons, its because they're a control deck that's taken control.
It definitely is a greedy build, color-wise. I've taken out the Banishing Lights and added two more lands recently to make things a bit more consistent. I was worried about flooding out in earlier builds, but the extra bits of card advantage added since the early builds help with that. The deck probably wants some small number of Mana Confluence as well.
Your numbers are a bit off. The only turn-two plays that matter in the deck are green and white; red has nothing until turn 3. I'd also consider the Caryatids around 0.5 a non-green color; they've been the most important component to fixing the mana-problems. So, I agree that the heavily devoted single-color cards (Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Courser of Kruphix, etc.) have a difficult time existing in this deck since the focus is on a 4-color spread. But I also think the mana is mostly doable without them. (Sidisi has been good for me as late-game insurance, but it also doesn't exactly have great exploit support.)
This just hasn't been the case in my testing. Ascendancy has slammed the door on games that were stalemates. It's produced quick combo kills. I realize that there's some awkwardness to it, that there's something to be gained by just playing more straight-forward threats. But this has been working out WELL. It is weaker to control since there's so much reliance on the combo. That's something that needs to be addressed. And Ascendancy does have weaknesses outside of the combo. All things I think that can be addressed. Regardless, the deck has been showing off in my testing and I think there's possibility for it to at least be an interesting fringe option. There's the possibility that it wants its own thread, but this feels like a better place to start.
I'm definitely not saying that the combo is guaranteed to be competitive. But it's shown some promise.
As for results: I've mostly played against a bunch of casual decks, which is hardly the best evidence, but I've played against a few tiered decks. Remember that I built this version on a budget and am now looking to spruce it up. To start, the mana is indeed a problem. Because of the combo nature, I think starting from 4 Mana Confluence is probably the way to go. I built it to just disregard the first turn, and I think that might remain the standard, but being slowed until turn 3 is such a nightmare.
Because of the combo nature, the deck has had real issues the few times I've played against UBx control. A countered Assault Formation just ruins the deck at times. Gx Devotion has also been a struggle, with them being able to flood the board beyond any ability to sneak by.
Where the deck has succeeded is in stalling early assaults with its huge defenders and in comboing past midrange decks. Because it doesn't take a lot of bodies to get rolling, the deck can win easily out of nowhere.
There are tons of classic issues, of course, and I should at least read through more of this thread for further ideas. The key will be in finding ways to make both enchantments good with the creatures in the deck. I originally leaned heavily toward Formation, but that doesn't have to be the case, I think.
Anyway, it's a casual dream that's been winning a lot (though against lesser decks) and any help it making it work would be appreciated. I'm not looking to play another Formation deck; not yet, at least.
EDIT: Thinking about it more, this combo would really have to veer away from the 0/X creatures in order to work organically. I've had time to assemble it against bad decks, but there have been plenty of games where I have an Ascendancy and attacking just isn't worthwhile. So perhaps X/X+1 bodies are just better for my needs.
I am thinking about green white with a heroic sub theme for my next attempt. Dropping the curve and making things go faster.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Also, how does Bant do for this style of deck?
Can anyone remember which event the deck tech was from?
Thanks.
Update decklist?