GW Devotion and Whip are being pushed out of the meta by Esper Dragons. Ultimate Price and Murderous Cut should keep most GR dragon decks in check.
I think I just need to unsubscribe from this thread.
Ultimate Price and Murderous Cut are great removal spells, you just need to draw them. With 2 and 1 copies each the chances aren't super great. Whip decks dominated the top 8 of last weekend's scg open (on a fundamental level I agree with you in that UB control is good at punishing these archetypes, but that doesn't mean people stop playing these decks. Also the resurgence of mono-red makes whip decks more appealing, so it's not that black and white as you make it to be). Furthermore I don't personally believe the Jund deck's control MU is that great, although I could be wrong about and I also have no intention of arguing over this since it'd be pure theorycrafting by both parties. I just don't think deck is *the* answer to meta.
Also, if you want to stop following this thread, you don't need my permission to do it nor inform me of your decision
EDIT: honestly, if you're looking to vent your frustration of whatever by making snappy remarks, I'd rather have you post them in some other thread.
Got a new build of my Jund Dragons Midrange deck as well as an FNM report to share. Thanks for any and all comments, even when I disagree I usually find them superhelpful!
Den Protector Definitely pulls its weight. I'm not sure whether or not I want more, but I'm inclined to say no. One of the weaknesses of this deck is the lack of constant four-ofs, and being able to recur something from my 'yard adds a lot of help. Kolaghan's Command has also been useful in this regard, bringing back a Dragon for value. Foul-Tongue Invocation feels absolutely insane. I think it's a fair card at three mana - not obscenely broken or anything - but wow, does it do work. I think I want to go up to a third. The lifegain is exactly what I've been needing in this deck to let me grind out wins. That's actually a good point; this deck is grindy, very grindy. While I'm not certain, I think it is successfully so. Control is still rough, but I think that the direction this deck is working towards has been positive. Removing Draconic Roar feels right. While I love it, and do genuinely think that Searing Blaze is good, it isn't very strong in the current meta/format IMO. One of my biggest hesitations is the Sarkhan, the Dragonspeakers. They were a last-minute switch (originally Stormbreath Dragons), and while it did pay off, I'm still a bit hesitant.
Moving forward, I've so far decided to remove the copies of Hero's Downfall from the SB in favor of Ultimate Price (which will come in against G/R Dragons), to eventually finish my set of Thoughtseize by removing Duress once I have the last copy. Speaking of Thoughtseize, for me it's a bit of a concession to be in this deck. While I personally feel it's a bit of a lazy catch-all, it really is very strong and useful here. I don't know whether or not I'd want the playset MD. I'm considering removing the last MD Outpost Siege in favor of a third Xenagos, the Reveler if I can get a copy. The removal of the Outpost Sieges has mostly been on the advice of friends, and while I'm not sure it's been correct - I love basically drawing two cards per turn - the extra slots for removal are nice.
The biggest weakness IMO is a lack of decent early action. Usually, my first turns are setup or removal, and against control I'd love some more early action, since it's really hard to win once they've stabilized. I'm thinking of Warden of the First Tree or Rakshasa Deathdealer out of the SB, but I'm a bit at a loss for what to bring in against control.
FNM Report (3-1 Overall):
Round 1: G/R Dragons (0-2) I'll be honest, I got pretty brutally thrashed, here. Game 1 I mulled to five on with only a Llanowar Wastes in-hand, on the draw. I had two Sylvan Caryatids in hand, so with the extra draw step it wasn't impossible that I'd be able to pick back up into the game alongside a T1 Thoughtseize in order to try to turn off any early aggression against my unknown opponent, but without getting my second land until turn four there wasn't a chance. Game 2 was close, but his Draconic Roar killing my Courser of Kruphix after blocking his led to a slow loss of momentum and eventual loss. I think the matchup is probably winnable, but I've not played against it enough to have more information since I don't get much time for testing.
Round 2: Esper Dragons (2-0) I think this is probably a difficult matchup, although Foul-Tongue Invocation and after board Self-Inflicted Wound both do a lot of work to get rid of irritating hexproof dragons. Crux of Fate also has potential, although I've not got enough non-Dragons for it to really be worthwhile since Foul-Tongue Invocation does the job fine. Game 1 I managed to get a decent series of top-decks, with him bricking on any card-draw spells, and so managed to eke out a win. Game 2, he only got 2 land through the game, and apparently was stuck on a hand of Foul-Tongue Invocations and a Dragon, which would have let him survive if he hadn't mulled so low. So, again, a bit lucky. This is the matchup I'd really like to get either some protection like Display of Dominance alongside a bit of early aggressive creatures to help this matchup, but tinkering with the sideboard seems likely to make other matchups worse...
Round 3: U/B Walls Mill (2-0) Easy game, although not the most competitive deck. His gameplan was mostly play walls and stall until landing Phenax, God of Deception to mill out on end-steps, but there were also small bits of control elements, and a few copies of Master of Waves. Just flew over his blockers, and kill-spelled everything I saw.
Round 4: Jund Dragons Midrange (!) (2-0) These two games were definitely the hardest-fought games for me of the night, and it boiled down to my being able to out-grind my opponent. He was running a surprising amount of manadorks and cheap creatures for some scary early aggression (Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic, and Rattleclaw Mystic all as four-ofs, in addition to at least two Avatar of the Resolute, although that might have been SB.). In other words, I was the more black-heavy deck; he seemed to only have black for the Dragons, without much concession to the removal. Foul-Tongue Invocation was, again, a monster here, and probably was literally the reason I won the game. Also, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker killing a Stormbreath Dragon with his -3 was huge.
Thanks for reading! I'll respond as best I can to any comments. I'm currently looking to play this at a PPTQ on Sunday, and while I hope I can spend some time testing tomorrow, I suspect that school will preclude that. The matchups I'm overall most worried about for a competitive meta are Esper Dragons, Abzan Aggro, and Mono-Red/Atarka Red Aggro. My SB is skewed towards handling aggro decks, with a bit of a cost against G/R Dragons and Esper Dragons/U/W Control/Sultai Control.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Currently messing with U/R or Mono-Red Artifacts, following Origins.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
Got a new build of my Jund Dragons Midrange deck as well as an FNM report to share. Thanks for any and all comments, even when I disagree I usually find them superhelpful!
Den Protector Definitely pulls its weight. I'm not sure whether or not I want more, but I'm inclined to say no. One of the weaknesses of this deck is the lack of constant four-ofs, and being able to recur something from my 'yard adds a lot of help. Kolaghan's Command has also been useful in this regard, bringing back a Dragon for value. Foul-Tongue Invocation feels absolutely insane. I think it's a fair card at three mana - not obscenely broken or anything - but wow, does it do work. I think I want to go up to a third. The lifegain is exactly what I've been needing in this deck to let me grind out wins. That's actually a good point; this deck is grindy, very grindy. While I'm not certain, I think it is successfully so. Control is still rough, but I think that the direction this deck is working towards has been positive. Removing Draconic Roar feels right. While I love it, and do genuinely think that Searing Blaze is good, it isn't very strong in the current meta/format IMO. One of my biggest hesitations is the Sarkhan, the Dragonspeakers. They were a last-minute switch (originally Stormbreath Dragons), and while it did pay off, I'm still a bit hesitant.
Moving forward, I've so far decided to remove the copies of Hero's Downfall from the SB in favor of Ultimate Price (which will come in against G/R Dragons), to eventually finish my set of Thoughtseize by removing Duress once I have the last copy. Speaking of Thoughtseize, for me it's a bit of a concession to be in this deck. While I personally feel it's a bit of a lazy catch-all, it really is very strong and useful here. I don't know whether or not I'd want the playset MD. I'm considering removing the last MD Outpost Siege in favor of a third Xenagos, the Reveler if I can get a copy. The removal of the Outpost Sieges has mostly been on the advice of friends, and while I'm not sure it's been correct - I love basically drawing two cards per turn - the extra slots for removal are nice.
The biggest weakness IMO is a lack of decent early action. Usually, my first turns are setup or removal, and against control I'd love some more early action, since it's really hard to win once they've stabilized. I'm thinking of Warden of the First Tree or Rakshasa Deathdealer out of the SB, but I'm a bit at a loss for what to bring in against control.
FNM Report (3-1 Overall):
Round 1: G/R Dragons (0-2) I'll be honest, I got pretty brutally thrashed, here. Game 1 I mulled to five on with only a Llanowar Wastes in-hand, on the draw. I had two Sylvan Caryatids in hand, so with the extra draw step it wasn't impossible that I'd be able to pick back up into the game alongside a T1 Thoughtseize in order to try to turn off any early aggression against my unknown opponent, but without getting my second land until turn four there wasn't a chance. Game 2 was close, but his Draconic Roar killing my Courser of Kruphix after blocking his led to a slow loss of momentum and eventual loss. I think the matchup is probably winnable, but I've not played against it enough to have more information since I don't get much time for testing.
Round 2: Esper Dragons (2-0) I think this is probably a difficult matchup, although Foul-Tongue Invocation and after board Self-Inflicted Wound both do a lot of work to get rid of irritating hexproof dragons. Crux of Fate also has potential, although I've not got enough non-Dragons for it to really be worthwhile since Foul-Tongue Invocation does the job fine. Game 1 I managed to get a decent series of top-decks, with him bricking on any card-draw spells, and so managed to eke out a win. Game 2, he only got 2 land through the game, and apparently was stuck on a hand of Foul-Tongue Invocations and a Dragon, which would have let him survive if he hadn't mulled so low. So, again, a bit lucky. This is the matchup I'd really like to get either some protection like Display of Dominance alongside a bit of early aggressive creatures to help this matchup, but tinkering with the sideboard seems likely to make other matchups worse...
Round 3: U/B Walls Mill (2-0) Easy game, although not the most competitive deck. His gameplan was mostly play walls and stall until landing Phenax, God of Deception to mill out on end-steps, but there were also small bits of control elements, and a few copies of Master of Waves. Just flew over his blockers, and kill-spelled everything I saw.
Round 4: Jund Dragons Midrange (!) (2-0) These two games were definitely the hardest-fought games for me of the night, and it boiled down to my being able to out-grind my opponent. He was running a surprising amount of manadorks and cheap creatures for some scary early aggression (Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic, and Rattleclaw Mystic all as four-ofs, in addition to at least two Avatar of the Resolute, although that might have been SB.). In other words, I was the more black-heavy deck; he seemed to only have black for the Dragons, without much concession to the removal. Foul-Tongue Invocation was, again, a monster here, and probably was literally the reason I won the game. Also, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker killing a Stormbreath Dragon with his -3 was huge.
Thanks for reading! I'll respond as best I can to any comments. I'm currently looking to play this at a PPTQ on Sunday, and while I hope I can spend some time testing tomorrow, I suspect that school will preclude that. The matchups I'm overall most worried about for a competitive meta are Esper Dragons, Abzan Aggro, and Mono-Red/Atarka Red Aggro. My SB is skewed towards handling aggro decks, with a bit of a cost against G/R Dragons and Esper Dragons/U/W Control/Sultai Control.
Great report! I wish you the best of luck for the PPTQ, I've got mine coming up next weekend.
I'm gonna be kicking a lot of dead horses here but I really can't help myself from trying to sell you my deck philosophy.
The biggest weakness IMO is a lack of decent early action. Usually, my first turns are setup or removal, and against control I'd love some more early action, since it's really hard to win once they've stabilized.
I really think Elvish Mystic is the best possible early play - it's true that Mystic is a poor top deck, but sometimes cards like that warrant their inclusion regardless. Your deck has a lot of grinding power, and not playing Mystics pays off when you can execute this game plan.
However, as you also mentioned, Mono-red / Atarka red and UBx dragons are one of the biggest players of this current standard meta. Abzan Aggro is also a good deck to try to pray on of course, especially if you have some reads that people might be playing that deck at your PPTQ.
Elvish Mystic is at its best against mono-red. At worst it's a mana-neutral trade with cards like Foundry Street Denizen and Wild Slash. Throwing the red player's sequencing off in the early turns of the game can translate into a huge chunk of lifegain that can eventually win you the game. When Mystic survives - perhaps the red player isn't willing to use his burn spells on him and you also deem Mystic's mana ramp more useful than trading with a threat in the current situation - you get to ramp into stabilizing plays. Pretty elementary, but I just felt like typing this out anyway.
The reason Elvish Mystic is such a great card to play as insurance against red decks is that it's a very low opportunity cost inclusion that will improve your G1 too. The problem with relying too much on powerful SB cards is that you're only improving your G2 and G3, which may not be enough since being on the draw against a red player that curves out perfectly is usually always a death sentence no matter what cards you have in your hand.
How I see things is that playing Elvish Mystic improves your mono-red MU greatly, while often being at least an "ok" card at worst against other decks. This should also free up slots from your SB. In my opinion it's slightly better to maindeck Mystics, and then sideboard cards that help you grind out for when you want that kind of cards and then side them in in place of the Mystics.
A card I'm pretty high on right now is Twin Bolt. If you're not running Mystics anyway, Seismic Rupture is probably a slightly better card, but I'm quite certain that playing Mystics and sideboarding Twin Bolts would improve your match win %. Of course constructing your SB to accommodate for these kind changes would be a lot work, but I genuinely feel this is the best approach to the mono-red MU.
This is the matchup I'd really like to get either some protection like Display of Dominance alongside a bit of early aggressive creatures to help this matchup, but tinkering with the sideboard seems likely to make other matchups worse...
I really think Display of Dominance is a huge trap, since against the current versions of controlling decks it's more like a glorified Ranger's Guile (although protecting planeswalkers can be handy).
Again, I know I've been proposing this same approach for this MU every time, but I just have to revisit it here too. Play Elvish Mystic / Sylvan Caryatid
. Play Duress / Thoughtseize, usually taking their counterspells. Play a Xenagos, a Sarkhan or an Ashcloud Pheonix and give enough pressure to make sure the rest of the cards in their hand won't matter.
This is the MU where I really feel like the grindier nature of your deck makes it slightly weaker - although card advantage is an important resource, you also want to have sufficient pressure. I highly prefer the game plan of accelerating into difficult to deal with -threats. I think it's all about trying to slip through a single threat or two, and then forcing action from the control players part. Once the opponent has to invest more mana into dealing with a PW than a single counterspell, for example (stuff like mainphasing a Dig Through Time to find a Hero's Downfall), you're pretty much winning the game. If you give the control player too much time to breathe, they're more likely to find answers for each of your threats.
It's rough, but I don't think maindeck Atarkas is where you want to be if you want to have a good MU against aggressive red decks and control. They're great against decks like Abzan aggro and other middle of the road -strategies, but playing Elvish Mystics in their place would improve your MU against both aggro and control.
Roast is also a card that is fantastic against Abzan Aggro, but Ultimate Price is miles better against mono-red and GR dragons. Roast and Price are similarly dead against UBx dragons, so I'd prefer a 1-1 split here.
Foul-Tongue Invocation is absolutely amazing in that it's great against all the three decks you listed - mono/atarka red, Abzan aggro, UBx control. 2 MD copies is the number I like too. This card is pretty much the only real reason I'm considering playing more dragons. Perhaps you could play 1 more in the siedeboard in place of a Self-Inflicted Wound? Not sure.
I like Duress a lot since it has utility against mono / Atarka red too - once again, a similarly low opportunity cost inclusion like Elvish Mystic. Then again Thoughtseize is a lot better against UBx since Ojutai / Silumgar is often the card you want to take away from their hand.
Crux of Fate is a card I don't feel is necessary. It's way too slow against Mono-red and it feels super clunky against UBx too, especially since you play your own dragons. It's not even super useful against Abzan aggro since creatures like Rakshasa Deathdealer and Fleecemane Lion are resilient against expensive sorcery-speed removal, and you have your own creatures you don't want to nuke. I really feel like Foul-Tongue Invocation is just a better card here.
Of course I'm just trying to offer some food for thought here - I'm definitely not assuming you're going to build your deck following my instructions, but hopefully you'll find some of these ideas useful.
Definitely worth thinking about, and I actually really appreciate the soapboxing about Elvish Mystic; the weakness of manadork topdecks is such a frustration for me that I do find it difficult to see the upsides for how it helps some of my matchups. Currently, I still think that it's probably incorrect, but I'll try to give it some thought before tomorrow. The honest answer is that I'm not sure what to expect for a meta; if it was going to be swamped with Mono-Red, I'd definitely run it so I could get more T1 action, but I'm guessing something a bit more midrangey, since that's been the format this entire time (and people have grown used to playing midrangey decks). Abzan Aggro, Abzan Midrange/Control, Esper Dragons, Sultai nonsense, etc. I've been really liking the Dragonlord Atarka maindeck; moving up from one to two in this build means I have a reasonable chance of grabbing one in a game, and it's just such a huge must-be-answered in addition to having effect upon ETB.
At least we agree that Foul-Tongue Invocation is good, yeah? I'm currently considering removing my last MD Kolaghan's Command in favor of it, since the lifegain can be a huge stabilizing factor for me, and Kolaghan's Command, while strong as a frequent two-for-one, just doesn't do enough against aggressive matchups. It's too slow at three mana IMO against things like mono-red, and against decks using manadorks often by the time you can cast it they've gotten a chance to use it as an accelerant into something nasty.
I think I disagree somewhat significantly on Twin Bolt. It's certainly an interesting option - especially the instant speed - but I'm not sure it's better than Arc Lightning, Seismic Rupture or Anger of the Gods. I'd rather have the sweeper of Seismic Rupture than a two-mana, two (split) damage spell. If it was Forked Lightning, we might be talking since that's a huge tempo swing sometimes, but the fact that Seismic Rupture can come in against other decks that utilize morphs, manifest, etc. - while definitely an off-chance - is a nice additional upside apart from wiping the board of Atarka Red. I see the point to the Duress, though; getting to snipe an Atarka's Command out of their hand can save you a massive amount of life. I'd currently been planning to board OUT my discard since paying life for Thoughtseize seems really risky against aggressive red decks, but I'd trade 2 life for avoiding a 7+ life loss almost any day.
Ultimate Price versus Roast is one of those fights I keep coming back to, mentally. They're both super good, and they're both fairly meta-dependent, what with all the multicolor creatures running around. They're equally good against Mono-Red/Atarka Red, Roast is better against the mess of Abzan decks still pervading the format, while Ultimate Price is better against G/R Dragons, Devotion decks, and marginally against Esper Dragons or other control decks (since it can at least target/kill Icefall Regent or Pearl Lake Ancient, although actually resolving it is probably unlikely). Does that seem a correct/fair assessment? I'd say my choice of Roast is due to the popularity of Abzan decks and other ground-based decks, since it's at least useable against Mono-Red/Atarka Red (although in G2 and G3 it's coming out for Seismic Rupture). Being worse in the Esper Dragons matchup doesn't feel super relevant to me, since the only MD killspell really worth playing there is Foul-Tongue Invocation due to all the freaking hexproof. The weakness in the G/R dragons matchup definitely feels worth being noted, though; Ultimate Price to kill Thunderbreak Regent or Stormbreath Dragon is a serious tempo-win. The best thing to hit with Roast is Courser of Kruphix which, while not irrelevant, isn't probably the best use of mana for sorcery-speed removal.
But it kills Siege Rhino!!! Hate those things, when I'm not casting them.
Anyway, thanks for the food for thought. Definitely think I need to give Elvish Mystic another think-over.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Currently messing with U/R or Mono-Red Artifacts, following Origins.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
Arc Lighting is pretty great against mono-red, but more and more I've come to appreciate instant speed plays. All the dash creatures, especially a card like Goblin Heelcutter demand a kill spell the turn they get cast. Some of the most explosive starts that mono / atarka red can get is Foundry Street Denizens into token generators, and Twin Bolt is just fantastic at stopping the initial aggression. Sure, Arc Lighting is significantly more powerful, but only if you get to cast. My impressions have been that the difference between 3 and mana 2 and sorcery speed vs instant speed is huge.
Seismic Rupture can win a game on spot, but the better aggro players know how to play around these kind of effects. I honestly found Anger of the Godsterrible against the red decks when I still played cards. I had to nuke my own mana generators to maybe kill 2-3 creatures, for 3 mana, at sorcery speed. At that point my defence is down and I'm hugely vulnerable to Lightning Berserker, for example. It's super easy for the red decks to pace their threats and if you're not playing to the board you might end up taking too much damage from their creatures even if you sweep the board at some point.
I know I sound a little extreme: Seismic Rupture is a good SB card against mono red! However I genuinely think it's not as powerful as it appears on the surface level and that the non-compromising qualities of Twin Bolt are prime. As I mentioned before, Elvish Mystic is the tipping point IMO. Once you play Elvish Mystics you want to leverage your ability to play to the board and take over with Xenagos's satyr tokens, and Seismic Rupture doesn't play as well with that.
Roast vs. Ultimate Price is a tough one. However I think Foul-Tongue Invocation shores up your weaknesses against Abzan aggro and Abzan control already, so I think you could leave Roasts to the sideboard. Basically what I think is that Price and Invocation are a better complimentary pair.
I would definitely remove Thoughtseize for the SB games against atarka / mono red, even though Duress is fantastic. the 2 life matters a LOT.
Dragonlord Atarka is a great card, just keep in mind how playing that card affects your MUs and whether that is where you wan to be for the G1s.
EDIT: I agree that Seismic Rupture has nice utility against stuff like GWx manifest decks. Both Rupture and Bolt are great SB cards IMO.
EDIT 2: I have actually liked Kolaghan's Command against the aggressive decks. it's by no means fantastic, but it's still important to have some cards in that let you overpower the red player. Sometimes the threat density of the red decks can be problematic if all I draw is removal spells and the only Courser I drew got removed from play. K-Command ensures I can ultimately play threats to take over the game. I like Chandra in the MU for similar reasons.
Brewed this up yesterday. Looking to play something grindy that can beat both Whip decks and Esper dragons. I know it's really short on removal, but I don't know what I'd want to pull for Hero's Downfall. I suppose I'm just banking on playing more must-kill threats (and recurring them with Whip, K-Command, and Den Protector) than my opponent can handle.
So, this is the decklist I ran yesterday. It's pretty similar to v. 2.1, so I won't talk in too much detail, just explain the changes.
-1 MD Outpost Siege, +1 MD See the Unwritten: This was mostly a last-minute change, I'll admit. The goal was to add another more threatening card, which has a fair chance of hitting action. The dream, of course, being to hit Dragonlord Atarka plus Dragonlord Kolaghan, but that's obviously magical Christmas land. I never got a chance to cast See the Unwritten yesterday, and only saw it once, so not much to say on it yet.
-2 SB Hero's Downfall, +2 Ultimate Price: Just predicted it to be strictly better, as I wasn't really sure where I'd be wanting Hero's Downfall, except against decks which would potentially have vulnerable Planeswalkers. In hindsight, this should have been SB Roast, with MD Ultimate Price; I just made a bad meta call on the popularity of Abzan.
-2 SB Crux of Fate, +2 Rakshasa Deathdealer: I'm still convinced that Rakshasa Deathdealer is good in the control matchup as an irritatingly difficult card to remove, although I never played against a control deck (and Crux of Fate might have been better in the meta I played in). I'm not sure; I feel like Crux of Fate is definitely good in Jund Dragons, but I'm not sure how to work it to goodness.
Round 2 v. Jeskai Tokens (0-2): Game one he gets his engine online and I just don't draw much action, leading to him burning me out and killing me with Jeskai Ascendancy-triggered tokens. Naturally, I sideboard in my Seismic Ruptures and Virulent Plague, and Destructive Revelry and expect an easy win, with a more difficult G3. ... He completely outplayed me in sideboarding for G2, bringing in Dragonlord Ojutais and other controlling elements, and I didn't have a chance. Oh well.
Matches Record: 1-1.
Round 3 v. Mono-White Heroic (1-2): Rogue deck, playing soldier synergies as well. I won G1, and saw a ton of tokens off of Raise the Alarm and Secure the Wastes. So, bringing in my clears and token-hate. G2 and G3, he stacks up stuff on a Favored Hoplite and with the use of God's Willing and Center Soul prevents me from killing it - and I never draw a Foul-Tongue Invocation to get around protection. G3 I've got Ultimate Price also in a desperate attempt to keep him down, but he lands more frustrating creatures than I can handle.
Matches Record: 1-2.
Round 4 v. Temur Collected Company (1-2): I don't know if this counts as rogue, but was basically a Temur Aggro deck. G1 I died pretty quickly to a Polukranos, World Eater monstrosity trigger and with a bestowed Boon Satyr. I win G2 off the back of kill-spells and ramp, but can't draw more than 4 land in G3 and can't handle his plays once he lands the second Savage Knuckleblade.
Matches Record: 1-3, and drop.
Post-Tournament Deck Thoughts:
I'll be honest, I was tilting pretty hard about the deck after the tournament on the drive home. That's a large part of why I waited a bit before writing this up. I think the best conclusion I can make is that in this format you don't want to be spending time setting up; you want to be acting and reacting as quick as you can. Moving forward, I definitely want a third Foul-Tongue Invocation as well as probably some extra early action, in general. The Ultimate Price v. Roast debate definitely still feels relevant. Also, I'm starting to lean towards agreeing with Tiemuuu and wanting to add back in the Elvish Mystics, albeit reluctantly. I don't think it's a good card, but it might be the card I need here. I'm starting to think about Nissa, Worldwaker as a sticky threat worth considering, whether in the MD or the SB. Crux of Fate also still seems good, and I think I was wrong to remove it. I think that the results was a bit less due to a weakness or unsuitability for the deck, and more due to my own lacks; I've not had time to grind games with it against common meta decks, for example.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Currently messing with U/R or Mono-Red Artifacts, following Origins.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
Nice to have a tournament report, even though your day didn't go that well. I think your analysis is in line with how I think this deck should be built.
Nissa is a decent finisher, but I really only like her against control. The format is full of Siege Rhinos, Tasigurs and Deathmist Raptors, so it's difficult to overpower people with just 4/4's. She could come out of the SB against control and probably token decks too, but I think those slots could be used for cards that have utility against other decks too. I also don't like playing Nissa when she's not your curve topper. I don't think you can play both Nissa and Atarka in the same deck, since you want really want to start turning your lands sideways immediately and use your cards to clear any big blockers your opponent might play.
I think the 3rd MD Foul-Tongue Invocation would definitely be a good addition. It's just a great tempo tool.
I definitely don't like the See the Unwritten. It's not a horrible magic card by any means, but even if we disregard the possibility that you'll often just flip a 6-mana Couurser or maybe a Thunderbreak Regent into play instead of hitting anything juicy, it's not rally what this deck wants. You clearly have enough power in this deck. I have touched on these things in my previous posts quite extensively, so in order to stop myself from further I'm just gonna post my current decklist here (it's pretty much the same as the last one):
Brewed this up yesterday. Looking to play something grindy that can beat both Whip decks and Esper dragons. I know it's really short on removal, but I don't know what I'd want to pull for Hero's Downfall. I suppose I'm just banking on playing more must-kill threats (and recurring them with Whip, K-Command, and Den Protector) than my opponent can handle.
the deck seems to be constructed pretty well. however I'm not a huge fan of these satyr wayfinder variants - I think the sultai versions that simply splash red for Atarka are much more consistent at executing the whip game plan. you could argue that Kolaghan offers another angle of attack against decks that flood the board, but honestly, Torrent Elemental is probably just a better tool for that.
I think you can have success at an FNM level with decks like these, but I do think the strategy is inherently disadvantaged compared to the other established archetypes.
Brewed this up yesterday. Looking to play something grindy that can beat both Whip decks and Esper dragons. I know it's really short on removal, but I don't know what I'd want to pull for Hero's Downfall. I suppose I'm just banking on playing more must-kill threats (and recurring them with Whip, K-Command, and Den Protector) than my opponent can handle.
If you're worried about enemy Whip of Erebos decks, I'd definitely consider a few copies of Destructive Revelry in the SB. They're not irrelevant in other matchups either (getting rid of Outpost Siege, etc). Plus, you can redirect the damage to hit a 'Walker!
Hornet Nest is an interesting card I'd not considered before. What do you bring it in against? Something that I've seen that could be worth considering would be running Roast as well, to generate 5 1/1 deathtouch bees if needed.
The Satyr Wayfinder + Sidisi, Undead Vizier package is interesting, but I'm not sure it's the best option. I've not tried it out, though, so I can't comment too much. The tutoring seems nice, but I'm not sure if you want the full 4 with this level of recursion - generally, most graveyard decks I've seen want to recur from the 'yard to the battlefield, not the 'yard to hand as Den Protector and Kolaghan's Command do. I'd suggest at least one more copy of Whip of Erebos as well as maybe considering some of the reanimation spells running around, like Rescue From the Underworld and Fearsome Awakening. As an additional plus, those cards also bring back the creature more permanently than Whip of Erebos, and often at a mana-discount by comparison to bringing it to hand.
Savage Ventmaw might be worth considering since it's got some interesting interactions with Whip of Erebos, although it's probably too cute. I can just imagine ditching a Ventmaw with Wayfinder and then later bringing it back with the Whip, only to use the mana to ramp into a big threat like Dragonlord Atarka or Garruk, Apex Predator.
Speaking of Garruk, I actually think that Ugin, the Spirit Dragon might be better, since he practically wins games when he lands.
Personally, I'd recommend a sweeper like Seismic Rupture or Anger of the Gods instead of Twin Bolt for the mono-Red/aggro matchups, but that's just me. I know Tiemuuu disagrees with me quite a bit on that one!
Hope my rambling's been helpful, Priest! If you've got any specific questions/thoughts, feel free to ask and I'll try to answer or evade or babble more.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: Currently messing with U/R or Mono-Red Artifacts, following Origins.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
Another FNM, another report. The decklist was same as above (Seismic Ruptures included, mind you)!
RW aggro, 2-1
A blast from the past. This deck was very low to ground with Monastery Swiftspears, Seeker of the Ways and lots of burn. I win the roll and keep a 3-land hand but never draw land or spells to cast, outside of morphing an Ashcloud Phoenix. G2 my opponent mulligans to 6 and I manage to swipe all his creatures with a Seismic Rupture on t4. I flooded a little, but Den Protector and other powerful spells eventually overwhelmed my opponent. Courser of Kruphix, Kolaghan's Command and Tasigur did tons of work. G3 my opponent has an unfortunate draw, since he lacks double red to cast his Goblin Outburst before I duress it away, which would have been very powerful against my hand of spot removal. Even though my deck is more powerful, I'm still grasping for good top decks to win the game. Sarkhan and Ashcloud Phoenix eventually get there.
Same opponent that I played a couple of weeks ago. G1 is looking very good for me, since I get to remove his threats with Murderous Cuts, Kolaghan's Commands and Sarkhan. I have a strong board presence but I'm unable to close the game fast since his Hopeful Eidolons had gained him over 15 life during the game. I have a morphed Ashcloud in play, alongside Tasigur, Courser, Xenagos, Sarkhan, Caryatid and Warden, but the game ends on my loss because of a crucial mistake (and a strong top deck) - I was at 15 life and decided to use Sarkhan's -3 ability to kill my opponent's last Hopeful Eidolon with the intent of closing the game as soon as possible, leaving him with a Hooting Mandrills and 2 Strength from the Fallen. Next turn my opponent plays a third strength, dealing exactly lethal damage if I block with all creatures. Bummer. G2 my opponent mulligans to 5 and I have great control of the game, removing his creatures from play and once again riding my Ashcloud and Sarkhan to victory. G3 I have to mulligan (again!) and face a very fast draw from my opponent. Luckily I drew a Seismic Rupture to deal with his 3 creatures in play, including a morphed Den Protector. This set back my opponent a lot, leaving me able to play Sarkhan to kill of his only threat and eventually tempo him out of the game with removal spells, even despite him being able to chain Den Protectors each turn.
2-0
Esper Dragons, 2-1
These games were appalling. G1 my opponent mulligans to 5 and I mulligan to 6. He doesn't hit his 3rd land drop on time, while my hand was chock full of gas. G2 my opponent mulligans to 6 and I mulligan 5, and this time I get land screwed. G3 I'm finally able to keep a 7 with 2 temples and a Courser, and even though my opponent seizes away my Courser I'm able to make my 4th land drop in time to start casting my threats.
3-0
Mono Red, 2-0
G1 was one of the greatest games of the evening. I lose the die roll but my hand is quite strong, with 2 Caryatids, Elvish Mystic, Courser and Kolaghan's Command. I deploy my mana guys and block aggressively to take as little damage as possible. I wait until I don't have to tap my mana guys to land my Courser. I'm starting to get out of double burn rage, when my opponent lands a Hall of Triumph to boost his 2 Swiftspears and 2 Goblin tokens. Next turn my Kolaghan's Command absolutely WRECKS him, taking down the Hall and a Mardu Scout and making the combat absolutely awful for my opponent. Game eventually ends in a double Kolaghan -swing. G2 was much less exciting, since I once again draw a hand with acceleration and good blockers while my opponent's hand was 2 Stokes, Foundry Street Denizen and 2 Zurgos. My Tasigurs end up being quite the roadblocks, even though I offer a trade for his Lightning Berserker with the first Tasigur.
4-0
The deck felt wonderful all day. Tomorrow is a GPT and the day after that, PPTQ, which I'm definitely trying to take down.
Lel, I shouldn't have asked to make my Orzhov deck the thread of the month. I chickened out and played Jund Memerange at FNM instead. Beat Abzan Warriors homebrew, Temur Midrange, Mono Blue Devotion, and Esper Dragons (opponent refused to split, lol) to go 4-0.
The deck felt great all night, despite looking like a random pile on the outside. Dragonlord Kolaghan is really good, and criminally underplayed right now. When combined with the mana ramp of Xenagos and the tutor ability on Sidisi, you can have absolutely busted turns and steal games out of nowhere. Of particular distinction was one such game where my opponent was at 16 and had me dead next turn (he swung in with Dragonlord Atarka and something else to drop me to 4, I had Xenagos, Courser, 2 Satyr Tokens and a Caryatid) and I +1'ed to play Sidisi, tutored up Kolaghan, and swung with my team for lethal that turn.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier is busted. Like, Demonic Tutor on a 4/6 deathtouch stick for 5 is just sick. She bailed me out of some seriously bad situations, repeatedly snatching the right threat/answer for the moment. Highlights include: the aforementioned scenario; playing out the last 2 cards of my hand (a Satyr Wayfinder and her) to tutor up a Thoughtseize to take the last card out of his hand (Dragonlord Silumgar) following a Crux of Fate on the previous turn; tutoring up a Foul-Tongue Invocation to wreck Dragonlord Ojutai; tutoring up a Murderous Cut to deal with an Icefall Regent. She really just does it all, and feels like the set-up card for the deck.
Honorable Mentions: Xenagos, the Reveler puts serious pressure on Control if he resolves, and produces a crap-ton of mana against other decks. Enables seriously busted turns, and the games where I had him were completely different in texture from the ones where I didn't. Kolaghan's Command is a bit slow, but feels really great when you have time for it. Another very underplayed card, and helps a lot in recurring threats. Satyr Wayfinder, strangely enough, overperformed as well, pitching ample fuel for Tasigur, the Golden Fang turns and putting tasty treats to recur with Kolaghan's Command and Den Protector.
I have a rather late-game oriented version of this deck. It plays a lot like a control deck mashed together with a sidisi whip deck (minus the sidisi).
The point is to do one of two things:
A: Whip something huge back
B: Chord something huge into play
While whip can be more consistent (and honestly it's the preferred line of play) I've found that this deck needs chord due to its low threat density and high removal count. We're not in blue, we can't just sit back and draw cards for days while controlling the board and drop a finisher when we feel like it.
If the chord target gets removed, we can just whip the removed creature back. Whip and chord complement each other very well.
Chord also gives us versatility against decks who try and hate out whip decks game 2/3. I'm looking into a transformative sideboard (something like -4 whip -3 commune +2 thunderbreak +2 stormbreath +3 insert threat here) to help the deck curve out, or moving the chords to the side and turning this into a midrange deck like many of the other lists here.
Nice to have a tournament report, even though your day didn't go that well. I think your analysis is in line with how I think this deck should be built.
Nissa is a decent finisher, but I really only like her against control. The format is full of Siege Rhinos, Tasigurs and Deathmist Raptors, so it's difficult to overpower people with just 4/4's. She could come out of the SB against control and probably token decks too, but I think those slots could be used for cards that have utility against other decks too. I also don't like playing Nissa when she's not your curve topper. I don't think you can play both Nissa and Atarka in the same deck, since you want really want to start turning your lands sideways immediately and use your cards to clear any big blockers your opponent might play.
I think the 3rd MD Foul-Tongue Invocation would definitely be a good addition. It's just a great tempo tool.
I definitely don't like the See the Unwritten. It's not a horrible magic card by any means, but even if we disregard the possibility that you'll often just flip a 6-mana Couurser or maybe a Thunderbreak Regent into play instead of hitting anything juicy, it's not rally what this deck wants. You clearly have enough power in this deck. I have touched on these things in my previous posts quite extensively, so in order to stop myself from further I'm just gonna post my current decklist here (it's pretty much the same as the last one):
Wassup everyone! Tiemuuu im virtually playing the same deck as you and wanted some insight on your past experiences. First let me start by saying that instead of playing warden and den protector I play 2 deathdealers. I also play the third thoughtsieze and run 24 lands. I'm loving this flavor of jund but I still think the removal package is not optimal. I understand murderous cut and all but I feel like lightning strike might serve us better. In my experiences at best it gets cast for about two or three mana and at that point it might as well be downfall. I often ask myself if the deck can support enough delve for tasigur and cut. Part of me even wants lightning strike to hit the creatures that we cannot hit with price (flecemane and mantis rider etc). Hell, I've even considered stoke the flames. Additionally, are you including atarka in your sideboard for hornet queen? I know that you have tried harbinger in the past but I think that is better for dealing with queens. I just feel like if you end up winning game one boarding into atarka on the draw against a green ramp deck might not be the best idea because they are ramping too which leaves you playing from behind and in that situation raising your curve just feels wrong. Of course that's just my oppinion. I do feel like the deck has potential and im looking forward to playing it more. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
about the removal spells, what choices are best are partially dictated by what your local metagame is like. I don't hate Lighting Strike, but I think the power level of that card is simply too low. I'd rather play Ultimate Price since when it has targets it's a GREAT deal, and side it out for match-ups when it doesn't. Lightning Strike might be more flexible, true, but I'd rather kill a Stormbreath Dragon or a Whisperwood Elemental 50% of the time than settle for striking a Voyaging Satyr or a Deathmist Raptor 80% the time. I don't think Lightning Strike's stocks are very high right now, given that the only real good target for is Fleecemane Lion.
Same things apply for Murderous Cut, delve and Tasigur. Playing 4 delve spells main can be very taxing, but the times you get to cast these spells on the cheap make it worth it all. Downfall is simply too difficult to cast for Jund's manabase, and that makes Murderous Cut easily the next best removal spell. I also side out either Tasigurs or Cuts for many sideboard games (Cut gets cut against mono-red / atarka red and control, Tasigurs get cut against many green decks for when I want evasion and evasion only), which then improves them.
I don't hate Deathdealers, but I can't quite figure when I'd really want to have them - they are fine against control, but control is already a very fine MU from my experience at least. Against grindy decks you really don't want to try out-grind them, but take to the skies instead. At least that's my strategy. If they work for you, then that's great too of course.
I actually ended up cutting the Atarka from my SB in favor of an additional Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury. I quite liked this change and will probably stick to this configuration.
------
I'm gonna write tournament reports from both the GPT and the PPTQ when I have gathered enough energy to do it. I'm just gonna spoil that the deck worked very well for me, and piloting it was fun too as usual.
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond bro. I totally get where you are coming from regarding the power level of lightning strike. My want for it most likely stems from dying to fleecemane lion and mantis rider more than I would like to admit. If only we had abrupt decay again lol. Tasigur has been good in my experiences, however I find it interesting that you think that the manabase can not support double black for heroes downfall when we have 12 black sources. I am going to try running them and I will let you know how it turns out.
I landed on deathdealer because I was only mildly impressed with warden. I am by no means saying that warden was bad but at the same time, he was not winning games on his own. The lifelink was fantastic when you are able to turn it on but those situations were few and far between in my experiences running him. Deathdealer on the other hand is a harder threat to get rid of and can attack thru problem creatures that would normally make warden but the brakes on (deathmist raptor, mantis rider,and courser just to name a few). In addition he also blocks well. I think that a shining point of this list is that there are a ton of mana sinks in our creatures so we always get to be efficient with our mana, and attacking for 6 with regen backup with the creature that you played way back on turn two is pretty powerful imo.
I 100% agree with the addition of the additional Kolaghan in the board. That choice makes a lot of sense in match ups where the ground is locked up. I feel as though taking to the skies and accelerating your clock is a good strategy when your opponent is siding to wall you and grind you out. If I am not too late good luck at the tournament. I look forward to reading your tournament report. GL
really just trying to switch it up a bit, bored of playing the same old deck
the 1 of stain the mind is a bit awkward to me, so i added another raptor because why not there awesome.
Play more dorks, more lands, and why is Stain the Mind maindeck?
You have 10 B land sources to cast Hero's Downfall. Something like 12 sources if you include Caryatid. I'm not sure that Hero's Downfall is feasible.
someone took 1st with with from a invitational, just saw it and thought it would be fun, i took out stain the mind, but all the double colors where super hard to hit... my normal instant top 8 splits for TNM tunred into a 1-2 drop because i was always behind with this deck. Unless I could curve to double storm or regent storm kolghan it just wasnt good. probably wont stick with this list again more of a pain to play that fun.
the curve does looks pretty horrid for your manabase. For comparison you top at two 7-drops and play 23 lands and 4 mana guys, whereas I top at two 6-drops and play 25 lands + 7 mana guys. So truly, it is hard for me to imagine someone having fun with that list.
------
GPT Utrecht 2.5.
Round 1, Atarka Red 2-1
Can't remember much about these games. My opponent was a very skilled player, but we both dropped a game due to mulliganing and mana screw or something and the 3rd one is decided by my powerful SB cards.
Round 2, 4c Rhino 2-1
I win the roll and accelerate into early Ashcloud Pheonix and a Dragonlord Kolaghan, while Thoughtseize removed one of his removals. My opponent doesn't have anything to stop my aerial assault and we move to SB games. I mistake his deck for a 4c whip deck, and side in my enchantment removal while keeping Kolaghan's Commands in. This proves to be a mistake as I get stomped by Siege Rhinos and Tasigurs. For G3 I get to be on the play again, and side in my anti-rhino removal. Chandra was also good at killing off his Satyr Wayfinders from sucking damage. I get to double Self-Inflicted Wound my opponent thanks to a Den Protector, and alongside Chandra this chip damage is enough to finish the game decisively.
Round 3, GR Jurassic Dragons 2-0
Once again I win the die roll. This MU is all about getting ahead in the race, since I can't compete with my opponent's Raptors and direct damage in the long run. I Kolaghan's Command away his morphed Rattleclaw Mystic, and lacking green sources and land drops in general he can't cast his spells on time, while my Ashcloud Phoenixes and Dragonlord Kolaghan hit for a bunch. Being on the draw is a very tough position, but my unexpected SB strategy pays off as I get to kill my opponent's two mana guys and a morphed Den Protector away with a Seismic Rupture. Kolaghan's Command kills of his last mana dork which he deploys after my turn, and my opponent is forced to discard a Dragonlord Atarka. At this point he is playing off the top of his deck, while I still have a ton of gas in my tank. Ultimate Price kills of the few dragons my opponent plays and the game is over fast.
Round 4, Esper Dragons 2-1
Pretty elementary stuff here. G1 I curve nicely into threats, and my Dragonlord Kolaghan and Ashcloud Pheonix prove to be too problematic. Kolaghan's Command was pivotal in ensuring I didn't run out of gas. G2 we again trade threats for answers. I eventually top deck a Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, and even threaten an ultimate, but my opponent top decks a Dragonlord Silumgar and steals the Sarkhan away, which unfortunately loses me the 2nd game. Such a bummer. I don't mind, since I know my chances of losing on the play are very slim.
Round 5, GR Dragons ID for top 4
In the end I'm the only player at 13 points, winning the swiss portion. This was certainly a great position to be in, as being on the play is highly advantageous.
Semis, 4c Rhino 2-0
Can't remember much, besides the fact that Dragonlord Kolaghan once again swung these games for me. The first game super close, as I get blown out by a morphed Sagu Mauler. I spend my removal to contain his siege rhinos, and the game ended on me blocking his 6/6 and 4/5 tramples at 7 life with a Tasigur and a Courser of Kruphix, while a Dragonlord Kolaghan and an Ashcloud Phoenix I'd drew off the top of my library dealt the final blow.
Finals, GR Dragons 1-2
Both of us draw serviceable hands in all games, but this time despite me being on the play I don't manage to draw enough fliers to clock my opponent. G1 I win since my opponent draws pretty slim, having a bunch of mana guys and a couple of Boon Satyrs. Xenagos, Tasigur and Courser were enough to grind him out. In G2 and G3 the ground gets shut by Deathmist Raptors and Den Protectors, and my Tasigurs do little to advance my game plan. Unfortunate loss, but can't complain since I lost probably to the best player in the room.
-----
I'll get back to the PPTQ breakdown after my FNM probably. List is similar to the previous iterations, but not quite identical!
Since mine are SB I usually only bring them in against control, whip, and slower midrange. Sometimes I'll bring it in against slower Rabblemaster decks in order to jump ahead in cards. I tend not to bring it in against Gx Ramp decks due to how quickly they can sometimes play their hand out. Perhaps it has a role when on the play.
In my experiences with the deck the only time that this card is really underwhelming is against mono G. Everywhere else the card has its uses. I believe its the kind of card that you want in the main though. Simply because it is easy to side command out in place of something much more useful in whatever match up you are involved in. Verses bringing command into a match up where really only one of its modes is relevant.
I think I just need to unsubscribe from this thread.
Ultimate Price and Murderous Cut are great removal spells, you just need to draw them. With 2 and 1 copies each the chances aren't super great. Whip decks dominated the top 8 of last weekend's scg open (on a fundamental level I agree with you in that UB control is good at punishing these archetypes, but that doesn't mean people stop playing these decks. Also the resurgence of mono-red makes whip decks more appealing, so it's not that black and white as you make it to be). Furthermore I don't personally believe the Jund deck's control MU is that great, although I could be wrong about and I also have no intention of arguing over this since it'd be pure theorycrafting by both parties. I just don't think deck is *the* answer to meta.
Also, if you want to stop following this thread, you don't need my permission to do it nor inform me of your decision
EDIT: honestly, if you're looking to vent your frustration of whatever by making snappy remarks, I'd rather have you post them in some other thread.
Youtube Channel
3 Swamp
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Malice
4 Temple of Abandon
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Merciless Executioner
1 rakshasa's secret
1 Doomwake Giant
4 Den Protector
4 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Bile Blight
3 Thoughtseize
1 Whip of Erebos
4 Kolaghan's Command
3 Hero's Downfall
1 crux of fate
1 duress
2 Hornet Nest
3 Drown in Sorrow
3 Feed the Clan
1 ugin, the spirit dragon
1 Roast
1 murderous cut
1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 tormod's crypt
2 Den Protector
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Dragonlord Atarka
Sorceries (5):
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crater's Claws
2 Roast
Instants (5):
2 Murderous Cut
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Enchantments (1):
1 Outpost Siege
Lands (25):
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Malice
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Mana Confluence
3 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Virulent Plague
3 Seismic Rupture
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Outpost Siege
2 Crux of Fate
Deck Comments:
Den Protector Definitely pulls its weight. I'm not sure whether or not I want more, but I'm inclined to say no. One of the weaknesses of this deck is the lack of constant four-ofs, and being able to recur something from my 'yard adds a lot of help. Kolaghan's Command has also been useful in this regard, bringing back a Dragon for value. Foul-Tongue Invocation feels absolutely insane. I think it's a fair card at three mana - not obscenely broken or anything - but wow, does it do work. I think I want to go up to a third. The lifegain is exactly what I've been needing in this deck to let me grind out wins. That's actually a good point; this deck is grindy, very grindy. While I'm not certain, I think it is successfully so. Control is still rough, but I think that the direction this deck is working towards has been positive. Removing Draconic Roar feels right. While I love it, and do genuinely think that Searing Blaze is good, it isn't very strong in the current meta/format IMO. One of my biggest hesitations is the Sarkhan, the Dragonspeakers. They were a last-minute switch (originally Stormbreath Dragons), and while it did pay off, I'm still a bit hesitant.
Moving forward, I've so far decided to remove the copies of Hero's Downfall from the SB in favor of Ultimate Price (which will come in against G/R Dragons), to eventually finish my set of Thoughtseize by removing Duress once I have the last copy. Speaking of Thoughtseize, for me it's a bit of a concession to be in this deck. While I personally feel it's a bit of a lazy catch-all, it really is very strong and useful here. I don't know whether or not I'd want the playset MD. I'm considering removing the last MD Outpost Siege in favor of a third Xenagos, the Reveler if I can get a copy. The removal of the Outpost Sieges has mostly been on the advice of friends, and while I'm not sure it's been correct - I love basically drawing two cards per turn - the extra slots for removal are nice.
The biggest weakness IMO is a lack of decent early action. Usually, my first turns are setup or removal, and against control I'd love some more early action, since it's really hard to win once they've stabilized. I'm thinking of Warden of the First Tree or Rakshasa Deathdealer out of the SB, but I'm a bit at a loss for what to bring in against control.
FNM Report (3-1 Overall):
Round 1: G/R Dragons (0-2) I'll be honest, I got pretty brutally thrashed, here. Game 1 I mulled to five on with only a Llanowar Wastes in-hand, on the draw. I had two Sylvan Caryatids in hand, so with the extra draw step it wasn't impossible that I'd be able to pick back up into the game alongside a T1 Thoughtseize in order to try to turn off any early aggression against my unknown opponent, but without getting my second land until turn four there wasn't a chance. Game 2 was close, but his Draconic Roar killing my Courser of Kruphix after blocking his led to a slow loss of momentum and eventual loss. I think the matchup is probably winnable, but I've not played against it enough to have more information since I don't get much time for testing.
Round 2: Esper Dragons (2-0) I think this is probably a difficult matchup, although Foul-Tongue Invocation and after board Self-Inflicted Wound both do a lot of work to get rid of irritating hexproof dragons. Crux of Fate also has potential, although I've not got enough non-Dragons for it to really be worthwhile since Foul-Tongue Invocation does the job fine. Game 1 I managed to get a decent series of top-decks, with him bricking on any card-draw spells, and so managed to eke out a win. Game 2, he only got 2 land through the game, and apparently was stuck on a hand of Foul-Tongue Invocations and a Dragon, which would have let him survive if he hadn't mulled so low. So, again, a bit lucky. This is the matchup I'd really like to get either some protection like Display of Dominance alongside a bit of early aggressive creatures to help this matchup, but tinkering with the sideboard seems likely to make other matchups worse...
Round 3: U/B Walls Mill (2-0) Easy game, although not the most competitive deck. His gameplan was mostly play walls and stall until landing Phenax, God of Deception to mill out on end-steps, but there were also small bits of control elements, and a few copies of Master of Waves. Just flew over his blockers, and kill-spelled everything I saw.
Round 4: Jund Dragons Midrange (!) (2-0) These two games were definitely the hardest-fought games for me of the night, and it boiled down to my being able to out-grind my opponent. He was running a surprising amount of manadorks and cheap creatures for some scary early aggression (Sylvan Caryatid, Elvish Mystic, and Rattleclaw Mystic all as four-ofs, in addition to at least two Avatar of the Resolute, although that might have been SB.). In other words, I was the more black-heavy deck; he seemed to only have black for the Dragons, without much concession to the removal. Foul-Tongue Invocation was, again, a monster here, and probably was literally the reason I won the game. Also, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker killing a Stormbreath Dragon with his -3 was huge.
Thanks for reading! I'll respond as best I can to any comments. I'm currently looking to play this at a PPTQ on Sunday, and while I hope I can spend some time testing tomorrow, I suspect that school will preclude that. The matchups I'm overall most worried about for a competitive meta are Esper Dragons, Abzan Aggro, and Mono-Red/Atarka Red Aggro. My SB is skewed towards handling aggro decks, with a bit of a cost against G/R Dragons and Esper Dragons/U/W Control/Sultai Control.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
Great report! I wish you the best of luck for the PPTQ, I've got mine coming up next weekend.
I'm gonna be kicking a lot of dead horses here but I really can't help myself from trying to sell you my deck philosophy.
I really think Elvish Mystic is the best possible early play - it's true that Mystic is a poor top deck, but sometimes cards like that warrant their inclusion regardless. Your deck has a lot of grinding power, and not playing Mystics pays off when you can execute this game plan.
However, as you also mentioned, Mono-red / Atarka red and UBx dragons are one of the biggest players of this current standard meta. Abzan Aggro is also a good deck to try to pray on of course, especially if you have some reads that people might be playing that deck at your PPTQ.
Elvish Mystic is at its best against mono-red. At worst it's a mana-neutral trade with cards like Foundry Street Denizen and Wild Slash. Throwing the red player's sequencing off in the early turns of the game can translate into a huge chunk of lifegain that can eventually win you the game. When Mystic survives - perhaps the red player isn't willing to use his burn spells on him and you also deem Mystic's mana ramp more useful than trading with a threat in the current situation - you get to ramp into stabilizing plays. Pretty elementary, but I just felt like typing this out anyway.
The reason Elvish Mystic is such a great card to play as insurance against red decks is that it's a very low opportunity cost inclusion that will improve your G1 too. The problem with relying too much on powerful SB cards is that you're only improving your G2 and G3, which may not be enough since being on the draw against a red player that curves out perfectly is usually always a death sentence no matter what cards you have in your hand.
How I see things is that playing Elvish Mystic improves your mono-red MU greatly, while often being at least an "ok" card at worst against other decks. This should also free up slots from your SB. In my opinion it's slightly better to maindeck Mystics, and then sideboard cards that help you grind out for when you want that kind of cards and then side them in in place of the Mystics.
A card I'm pretty high on right now is Twin Bolt. If you're not running Mystics anyway, Seismic Rupture is probably a slightly better card, but I'm quite certain that playing Mystics and sideboarding Twin Bolts would improve your match win %. Of course constructing your SB to accommodate for these kind changes would be a lot work, but I genuinely feel this is the best approach to the mono-red MU.
I really think Display of Dominance is a huge trap, since against the current versions of controlling decks it's more like a glorified Ranger's Guile (although protecting planeswalkers can be handy).
Again, I know I've been proposing this same approach for this MU every time, but I just have to revisit it here too. Play Elvish Mystic / Sylvan Caryatid
. Play Duress / Thoughtseize, usually taking their counterspells. Play a Xenagos, a Sarkhan or an Ashcloud Pheonix and give enough pressure to make sure the rest of the cards in their hand won't matter.
This is the MU where I really feel like the grindier nature of your deck makes it slightly weaker - although card advantage is an important resource, you also want to have sufficient pressure. I highly prefer the game plan of accelerating into difficult to deal with -threats. I think it's all about trying to slip through a single threat or two, and then forcing action from the control players part. Once the opponent has to invest more mana into dealing with a PW than a single counterspell, for example (stuff like mainphasing a Dig Through Time to find a Hero's Downfall), you're pretty much winning the game. If you give the control player too much time to breathe, they're more likely to find answers for each of your threats.
It's rough, but I don't think maindeck Atarkas is where you want to be if you want to have a good MU against aggressive red decks and control. They're great against decks like Abzan aggro and other middle of the road -strategies, but playing Elvish Mystics in their place would improve your MU against both aggro and control.
Roast is also a card that is fantastic against Abzan Aggro, but Ultimate Price is miles better against mono-red and GR dragons. Roast and Price are similarly dead against UBx dragons, so I'd prefer a 1-1 split here.
Foul-Tongue Invocation is absolutely amazing in that it's great against all the three decks you listed - mono/atarka red, Abzan aggro, UBx control. 2 MD copies is the number I like too. This card is pretty much the only real reason I'm considering playing more dragons. Perhaps you could play 1 more in the siedeboard in place of a Self-Inflicted Wound? Not sure.
I like Duress a lot since it has utility against mono / Atarka red too - once again, a similarly low opportunity cost inclusion like Elvish Mystic. Then again Thoughtseize is a lot better against UBx since Ojutai / Silumgar is often the card you want to take away from their hand.
Crux of Fate is a card I don't feel is necessary. It's way too slow against Mono-red and it feels super clunky against UBx too, especially since you play your own dragons. It's not even super useful against Abzan aggro since creatures like Rakshasa Deathdealer and Fleecemane Lion are resilient against expensive sorcery-speed removal, and you have your own creatures you don't want to nuke. I really feel like Foul-Tongue Invocation is just a better card here.
-----
My suggestions (the ultimate ):
MD
- 2 Roast
- 1 Outpost Siege
- 2 Dragonlord Atarka
+ 1 Ultimate Price
+ 1 Xenagos
+ 3 Elvish Mystic (/+ 2 Mystic, + 1 Dragonlord Kolaghan)
SB:
2 Thoughtseize / Duress
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Twin Bolt
2 Roast
2 Outpost Siege
1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Thoughtseize / Duress / Foul-Tongue / Price / Roast / Chandra. Can't really decide on the spot.
-----
Of course I'm just trying to offer some food for thought here - I'm definitely not assuming you're going to build your deck following my instructions, but hopefully you'll find some of these ideas useful.
Youtube Channel
At least we agree that Foul-Tongue Invocation is good, yeah? I'm currently considering removing my last MD Kolaghan's Command in favor of it, since the lifegain can be a huge stabilizing factor for me, and Kolaghan's Command, while strong as a frequent two-for-one, just doesn't do enough against aggressive matchups. It's too slow at three mana IMO against things like mono-red, and against decks using manadorks often by the time you can cast it they've gotten a chance to use it as an accelerant into something nasty.
I think I disagree somewhat significantly on Twin Bolt. It's certainly an interesting option - especially the instant speed - but I'm not sure it's better than Arc Lightning, Seismic Rupture or Anger of the Gods. I'd rather have the sweeper of Seismic Rupture than a two-mana, two (split) damage spell. If it was Forked Lightning, we might be talking since that's a huge tempo swing sometimes, but the fact that Seismic Rupture can come in against other decks that utilize morphs, manifest, etc. - while definitely an off-chance - is a nice additional upside apart from wiping the board of Atarka Red. I see the point to the Duress, though; getting to snipe an Atarka's Command out of their hand can save you a massive amount of life. I'd currently been planning to board OUT my discard since paying life for Thoughtseize seems really risky against aggressive red decks, but I'd trade 2 life for avoiding a 7+ life loss almost any day.
Ultimate Price versus Roast is one of those fights I keep coming back to, mentally. They're both super good, and they're both fairly meta-dependent, what with all the multicolor creatures running around. They're equally good against Mono-Red/Atarka Red, Roast is better against the mess of Abzan decks still pervading the format, while Ultimate Price is better against G/R Dragons, Devotion decks, and marginally against Esper Dragons or other control decks (since it can at least target/kill Icefall Regent or Pearl Lake Ancient, although actually resolving it is probably unlikely). Does that seem a correct/fair assessment? I'd say my choice of Roast is due to the popularity of Abzan decks and other ground-based decks, since it's at least useable against Mono-Red/Atarka Red (although in G2 and G3 it's coming out for Seismic Rupture). Being worse in the Esper Dragons matchup doesn't feel super relevant to me, since the only MD killspell really worth playing there is Foul-Tongue Invocation due to all the freaking hexproof. The weakness in the G/R dragons matchup definitely feels worth being noted, though; Ultimate Price to kill Thunderbreak Regent or Stormbreath Dragon is a serious tempo-win. The best thing to hit with Roast is Courser of Kruphix which, while not irrelevant, isn't probably the best use of mana for sorcery-speed removal.
But it kills Siege Rhino!!! Hate those things, when I'm not casting them.
Anyway, thanks for the food for thought. Definitely think I need to give Elvish Mystic another think-over.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
Seismic Rupture can win a game on spot, but the better aggro players know how to play around these kind of effects. I honestly found Anger of the Gods terrible against the red decks when I still played cards. I had to nuke my own mana generators to maybe kill 2-3 creatures, for 3 mana, at sorcery speed. At that point my defence is down and I'm hugely vulnerable to Lightning Berserker, for example. It's super easy for the red decks to pace their threats and if you're not playing to the board you might end up taking too much damage from their creatures even if you sweep the board at some point.
I know I sound a little extreme: Seismic Rupture is a good SB card against mono red! However I genuinely think it's not as powerful as it appears on the surface level and that the non-compromising qualities of Twin Bolt are prime. As I mentioned before, Elvish Mystic is the tipping point IMO. Once you play Elvish Mystics you want to leverage your ability to play to the board and take over with Xenagos's satyr tokens, and Seismic Rupture doesn't play as well with that.
Roast vs. Ultimate Price is a tough one. However I think Foul-Tongue Invocation shores up your weaknesses against Abzan aggro and Abzan control already, so I think you could leave Roasts to the sideboard. Basically what I think is that Price and Invocation are a better complimentary pair.
I would definitely remove Thoughtseize for the SB games against atarka / mono red, even though Duress is fantastic. the 2 life matters a LOT.
Dragonlord Atarka is a great card, just keep in mind how playing that card affects your MUs and whether that is where you wan to be for the G1s.
EDIT: I agree that Seismic Rupture has nice utility against stuff like GWx manifest decks. Both Rupture and Bolt are great SB cards IMO.
EDIT 2: I have actually liked Kolaghan's Command against the aggressive decks. it's by no means fantastic, but it's still important to have some cards in that let you overpower the red player. Sometimes the threat density of the red decks can be problematic if all I draw is removal spells and the only Courser I drew got removed from play. K-Command ensures I can ultimately play threats to take over the game. I like Chandra in the MU for similar reasons.
Youtube Channel
4 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Den Protector
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Hornet Queen
Instants/Sorceries (8)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Murderous Cut
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
Land (24)
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Temple of Malady
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Hornet Nest
2 Twin Bolt
2 Ultimate Price
1 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
2 Outpost Siege
1 Archfiend of Depravity
1 Soul of Innistrad
Let me know what you guys think
2 Den Protector
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Dragonlord Atarka
Sorceries (6):
2 Thoughtseize
1 Crater's Claws
2 Roast
1 See the Unwritten
Instants (5):
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Murderous Cut
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Lands (25):
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Malady
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Ultimate Price
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
2 Destructive Revelry
3 Seismic Rupture
1 Virulent Plague
1 Outpost Siege
So, this is the decklist I ran yesterday. It's pretty similar to v. 2.1, so I won't talk in too much detail, just explain the changes.
-1 MD Outpost Siege, +1 MD See the Unwritten: This was mostly a last-minute change, I'll admit. The goal was to add another more threatening card, which has a fair chance of hitting action. The dream, of course, being to hit Dragonlord Atarka plus Dragonlord Kolaghan, but that's obviously magical Christmas land. I never got a chance to cast See the Unwritten yesterday, and only saw it once, so not much to say on it yet.
-2 SB Hero's Downfall, +2 Ultimate Price: Just predicted it to be strictly better, as I wasn't really sure where I'd be wanting Hero's Downfall, except against decks which would potentially have vulnerable Planeswalkers. In hindsight, this should have been SB Roast, with MD Ultimate Price; I just made a bad meta call on the popularity of Abzan.
-2 SB Crux of Fate, +2 Rakshasa Deathdealer: I'm still convinced that Rakshasa Deathdealer is good in the control matchup as an irritatingly difficult card to remove, although I never played against a control deck (and Crux of Fate might have been better in the meta I played in). I'm not sure; I feel like Crux of Fate is definitely good in Jund Dragons, but I'm not sure how to work it to goodness.
Tournament Report:
Round 1 v. Atarka Red (2-1): Game one was absolutely brutal; I got pretty thoroughly trashed by Foundry Street Denizen, Hordeling Outburst and Atarka's Command for the kill on T4. Kind of what I'd expected for G1, though, to be honest. Sideboarded in my copies of Seismic Rupture and Virulent Plague, taking out Thoughtseize and Roast, if I remember correctly. G2 I'm on the play, and two Sylvan Carytids lead me to a T5 Dragonlord Atarka for maximum winning. G3 I just refuse him any board presence, even with a T2 Crater's Claws on his Foundry Street Denizen and using Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker's -3 to kill a second one later in the game.
Matches Record: 1-0.
Round 2 v. Jeskai Tokens (0-2): Game one he gets his engine online and I just don't draw much action, leading to him burning me out and killing me with Jeskai Ascendancy-triggered tokens. Naturally, I sideboard in my Seismic Ruptures and Virulent Plague, and Destructive Revelry and expect an easy win, with a more difficult G3. ... He completely outplayed me in sideboarding for G2, bringing in Dragonlord Ojutais and other controlling elements, and I didn't have a chance. Oh well.
Matches Record: 1-1.
Round 3 v. Mono-White Heroic (1-2): Rogue deck, playing soldier synergies as well. I won G1, and saw a ton of tokens off of Raise the Alarm and Secure the Wastes. So, bringing in my clears and token-hate. G2 and G3, he stacks up stuff on a Favored Hoplite and with the use of God's Willing and Center Soul prevents me from killing it - and I never draw a Foul-Tongue Invocation to get around protection. G3 I've got Ultimate Price also in a desperate attempt to keep him down, but he lands more frustrating creatures than I can handle.
Matches Record: 1-2.
Round 4 v. Temur Collected Company (1-2): I don't know if this counts as rogue, but was basically a Temur Aggro deck. G1 I died pretty quickly to a Polukranos, World Eater monstrosity trigger and with a bestowed Boon Satyr. I win G2 off the back of kill-spells and ramp, but can't draw more than 4 land in G3 and can't handle his plays once he lands the second Savage Knuckleblade.
Matches Record: 1-3, and drop.
Post-Tournament Deck Thoughts:
I'll be honest, I was tilting pretty hard about the deck after the tournament on the drive home. That's a large part of why I waited a bit before writing this up. I think the best conclusion I can make is that in this format you don't want to be spending time setting up; you want to be acting and reacting as quick as you can. Moving forward, I definitely want a third Foul-Tongue Invocation as well as probably some extra early action, in general. The Ultimate Price v. Roast debate definitely still feels relevant. Also, I'm starting to lean towards agreeing with Tiemuuu and wanting to add back in the Elvish Mystics, albeit reluctantly. I don't think it's a good card, but it might be the card I need here. I'm starting to think about Nissa, Worldwaker as a sticky threat worth considering, whether in the MD or the SB. Crux of Fate also still seems good, and I think I was wrong to remove it. I think that the results was a bit less due to a weakness or unsuitability for the deck, and more due to my own lacks; I've not had time to grind games with it against common meta decks, for example.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
Nissa is a decent finisher, but I really only like her against control. The format is full of Siege Rhinos, Tasigurs and Deathmist Raptors, so it's difficult to overpower people with just 4/4's. She could come out of the SB against control and probably token decks too, but I think those slots could be used for cards that have utility against other decks too. I also don't like playing Nissa when she's not your curve topper. I don't think you can play both Nissa and Atarka in the same deck, since you want really want to start turning your lands sideways immediately and use your cards to clear any big blockers your opponent might play.
I think the 3rd MD Foul-Tongue Invocation would definitely be a good addition. It's just a great tempo tool.
I definitely don't like the See the Unwritten. It's not a horrible magic card by any means, but even if we disregard the possibility that you'll often just flip a 6-mana Couurser or maybe a Thunderbreak Regent into play instead of hitting anything juicy, it's not rally what this deck wants. You clearly have enough power in this deck. I have touched on these things in my previous posts quite extensively, so in order to stop myself from further I'm just gonna post my current decklist here (it's pretty much the same as the last one):
1 Warden of the First Tree
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Kolaghan, the storm's fury
1 Den Protector
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
PWs (5):
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Other (9):
2 Thoughtseize
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Ultimate Price
2 Murderous Cut
1 Crater's Claws
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Roast
3 Seismic Rupture
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Dragonlord Atarka
Youtube Channel
the deck seems to be constructed pretty well. however I'm not a huge fan of these satyr wayfinder variants - I think the sultai versions that simply splash red for Atarka are much more consistent at executing the whip game plan. you could argue that Kolaghan offers another angle of attack against decks that flood the board, but honestly, Torrent Elemental is probably just a better tool for that.
I think you can have success at an FNM level with decks like these, but I do think the strategy is inherently disadvantaged compared to the other established archetypes.
Youtube Channel
If you're worried about enemy Whip of Erebos decks, I'd definitely consider a few copies of Destructive Revelry in the SB. They're not irrelevant in other matchups either (getting rid of Outpost Siege, etc). Plus, you can redirect the damage to hit a 'Walker!
Hornet Nest is an interesting card I'd not considered before. What do you bring it in against? Something that I've seen that could be worth considering would be running Roast as well, to generate 5 1/1 deathtouch bees if needed.
The Satyr Wayfinder + Sidisi, Undead Vizier package is interesting, but I'm not sure it's the best option. I've not tried it out, though, so I can't comment too much. The tutoring seems nice, but I'm not sure if you want the full 4 with this level of recursion - generally, most graveyard decks I've seen want to recur from the 'yard to the battlefield, not the 'yard to hand as Den Protector and Kolaghan's Command do. I'd suggest at least one more copy of Whip of Erebos as well as maybe considering some of the reanimation spells running around, like Rescue From the Underworld and Fearsome Awakening. As an additional plus, those cards also bring back the creature more permanently than Whip of Erebos, and often at a mana-discount by comparison to bringing it to hand.
Savage Ventmaw might be worth considering since it's got some interesting interactions with Whip of Erebos, although it's probably too cute. I can just imagine ditching a Ventmaw with Wayfinder and then later bringing it back with the Whip, only to use the mana to ramp into a big threat like Dragonlord Atarka or Garruk, Apex Predator.
Speaking of Garruk, I actually think that Ugin, the Spirit Dragon might be better, since he practically wins games when he lands.
Personally, I'd recommend a sweeper like Seismic Rupture or Anger of the Gods instead of Twin Bolt for the mono-Red/aggro matchups, but that's just me. I know Tiemuuu disagrees with me quite a bit on that one!
Hope my rambling's been helpful, Priest! If you've got any specific questions/thoughts, feel free to ask and I'll try to answer or evade or babble more.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
RW aggro, 2-1
A blast from the past. This deck was very low to ground with Monastery Swiftspears, Seeker of the Ways and lots of burn. I win the roll and keep a 3-land hand but never draw land or spells to cast, outside of morphing an Ashcloud Phoenix. G2 my opponent mulligans to 6 and I manage to swipe all his creatures with a Seismic Rupture on t4. I flooded a little, but Den Protector and other powerful spells eventually overwhelmed my opponent. Courser of Kruphix, Kolaghan's Command and Tasigur did tons of work. G3 my opponent has an unfortunate draw, since he lacks double red to cast his Goblin Outburst before I duress it away, which would have been very powerful against my hand of spot removal. Even though my deck is more powerful, I'm still grasping for good top decks to win the game. Sarkhan and Ashcloud Phoenix eventually get there.
1-0
GW Strength from the Fallen, 2-1
Same opponent that I played a couple of weeks ago. G1 is looking very good for me, since I get to remove his threats with Murderous Cuts, Kolaghan's Commands and Sarkhan. I have a strong board presence but I'm unable to close the game fast since his Hopeful Eidolons had gained him over 15 life during the game. I have a morphed Ashcloud in play, alongside Tasigur, Courser, Xenagos, Sarkhan, Caryatid and Warden, but the game ends on my loss because of a crucial mistake (and a strong top deck) - I was at 15 life and decided to use Sarkhan's -3 ability to kill my opponent's last Hopeful Eidolon with the intent of closing the game as soon as possible, leaving him with a Hooting Mandrills and 2 Strength from the Fallen. Next turn my opponent plays a third strength, dealing exactly lethal damage if I block with all creatures. Bummer. G2 my opponent mulligans to 5 and I have great control of the game, removing his creatures from play and once again riding my Ashcloud and Sarkhan to victory. G3 I have to mulligan (again!) and face a very fast draw from my opponent. Luckily I drew a Seismic Rupture to deal with his 3 creatures in play, including a morphed Den Protector. This set back my opponent a lot, leaving me able to play Sarkhan to kill of his only threat and eventually tempo him out of the game with removal spells, even despite him being able to chain Den Protectors each turn.
2-0
Esper Dragons, 2-1
These games were appalling. G1 my opponent mulligans to 5 and I mulligan to 6. He doesn't hit his 3rd land drop on time, while my hand was chock full of gas. G2 my opponent mulligans to 6 and I mulligan 5, and this time I get land screwed. G3 I'm finally able to keep a 7 with 2 temples and a Courser, and even though my opponent seizes away my Courser I'm able to make my 4th land drop in time to start casting my threats.
3-0
Mono Red, 2-0
G1 was one of the greatest games of the evening. I lose the die roll but my hand is quite strong, with 2 Caryatids, Elvish Mystic, Courser and Kolaghan's Command. I deploy my mana guys and block aggressively to take as little damage as possible. I wait until I don't have to tap my mana guys to land my Courser. I'm starting to get out of double burn rage, when my opponent lands a Hall of Triumph to boost his 2 Swiftspears and 2 Goblin tokens. Next turn my Kolaghan's Command absolutely WRECKS him, taking down the Hall and a Mardu Scout and making the combat absolutely awful for my opponent. Game eventually ends in a double Kolaghan -swing. G2 was much less exciting, since I once again draw a hand with acceleration and good blockers while my opponent's hand was 2 Stokes, Foundry Street Denizen and 2 Zurgos. My Tasigurs end up being quite the roadblocks, even though I offer a trade for his Lightning Berserker with the first Tasigur.
4-0
The deck felt wonderful all day. Tomorrow is a GPT and the day after that, PPTQ, which I'm definitely trying to take down.
Youtube Channel
The deck felt great all night, despite looking like a random pile on the outside. Dragonlord Kolaghan is really good, and criminally underplayed right now. When combined with the mana ramp of Xenagos and the tutor ability on Sidisi, you can have absolutely busted turns and steal games out of nowhere. Of particular distinction was one such game where my opponent was at 16 and had me dead next turn (he swung in with Dragonlord Atarka and something else to drop me to 4, I had Xenagos, Courser, 2 Satyr Tokens and a Caryatid) and I +1'ed to play Sidisi, tutored up Kolaghan, and swung with my team for lethal that turn.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier is busted. Like, Demonic Tutor on a 4/6 deathtouch stick for 5 is just sick. She bailed me out of some seriously bad situations, repeatedly snatching the right threat/answer for the moment. Highlights include: the aforementioned scenario; playing out the last 2 cards of my hand (a Satyr Wayfinder and her) to tutor up a Thoughtseize to take the last card out of his hand (Dragonlord Silumgar) following a Crux of Fate on the previous turn; tutoring up a Foul-Tongue Invocation to wreck Dragonlord Ojutai; tutoring up a Murderous Cut to deal with an Icefall Regent. She really just does it all, and feels like the set-up card for the deck.
Honorable Mentions: Xenagos, the Reveler puts serious pressure on Control if he resolves, and produces a crap-ton of mana against other decks. Enables seriously busted turns, and the games where I had him were completely different in texture from the ones where I didn't. Kolaghan's Command is a bit slow, but feels really great when you have time for it. Another very underplayed card, and helps a lot in recurring threats. Satyr Wayfinder, strangely enough, overperformed as well, pitching ample fuel for Tasigur, the Golden Fang turns and putting tasty treats to recur with Kolaghan's Command and Den Protector.
The point is to do one of two things:
A: Whip something huge back
B: Chord something huge into play
While whip can be more consistent (and honestly it's the preferred line of play) I've found that this deck needs chord due to its low threat density and high removal count. We're not in blue, we can't just sit back and draw cards for days while controlling the board and drop a finisher when we feel like it.
If the chord target gets removed, we can just whip the removed creature back. Whip and chord complement each other very well.
Chord also gives us versatility against decks who try and hate out whip decks game 2/3. I'm looking into a transformative sideboard (something like -4 whip -3 commune +2 thunderbreak +2 stormbreath +3 insert threat here) to help the deck curve out, or moving the chords to the side and turning this into a midrange deck like many of the other lists here.
Anyways, here's my two (janky) cents.
4 Whip of Erebos
Creatures (16):
1 Atarka, World Render
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Chord of Calling
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries (7):
3 Commune with the Gods
4 Thoughtseize
Land (24):
3 Bloodstained Mire
5 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes
4 Mountain
5 Swamp
1 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Malice
3 Wooded Foothills
The sideboard I'm not too sure about, help would be nice. This is just an idea, feel free to comment.
Wassup everyone! Tiemuuu im virtually playing the same deck as you and wanted some insight on your past experiences. First let me start by saying that instead of playing warden and den protector I play 2 deathdealers. I also play the third thoughtsieze and run 24 lands. I'm loving this flavor of jund but I still think the removal package is not optimal. I understand murderous cut and all but I feel like lightning strike might serve us better. In my experiences at best it gets cast for about two or three mana and at that point it might as well be downfall. I often ask myself if the deck can support enough delve for tasigur and cut. Part of me even wants lightning strike to hit the creatures that we cannot hit with price (flecemane and mantis rider etc). Hell, I've even considered stoke the flames. Additionally, are you including atarka in your sideboard for hornet queen? I know that you have tried harbinger in the past but I think that is better for dealing with queens. I just feel like if you end up winning game one boarding into atarka on the draw against a green ramp deck might not be the best idea because they are ramping too which leaves you playing from behind and in that situation raising your curve just feels wrong. Of course that's just my oppinion. I do feel like the deck has potential and im looking forward to playing it more. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.
about the removal spells, what choices are best are partially dictated by what your local metagame is like. I don't hate Lighting Strike, but I think the power level of that card is simply too low. I'd rather play Ultimate Price since when it has targets it's a GREAT deal, and side it out for match-ups when it doesn't. Lightning Strike might be more flexible, true, but I'd rather kill a Stormbreath Dragon or a Whisperwood Elemental 50% of the time than settle for striking a Voyaging Satyr or a Deathmist Raptor 80% the time. I don't think Lightning Strike's stocks are very high right now, given that the only real good target for is Fleecemane Lion.
Same things apply for Murderous Cut, delve and Tasigur. Playing 4 delve spells main can be very taxing, but the times you get to cast these spells on the cheap make it worth it all. Downfall is simply too difficult to cast for Jund's manabase, and that makes Murderous Cut easily the next best removal spell. I also side out either Tasigurs or Cuts for many sideboard games (Cut gets cut against mono-red / atarka red and control, Tasigurs get cut against many green decks for when I want evasion and evasion only), which then improves them.
I don't hate Deathdealers, but I can't quite figure when I'd really want to have them - they are fine against control, but control is already a very fine MU from my experience at least. Against grindy decks you really don't want to try out-grind them, but take to the skies instead. At least that's my strategy. If they work for you, then that's great too of course.
I actually ended up cutting the Atarka from my SB in favor of an additional Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury. I quite liked this change and will probably stick to this configuration.
------
I'm gonna write tournament reports from both the GPT and the PPTQ when I have gathered enough energy to do it. I'm just gonna spoil that the deck worked very well for me, and piloting it was fun too as usual.
Youtube Channel
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond bro. I totally get where you are coming from regarding the power level of lightning strike. My want for it most likely stems from dying to fleecemane lion and mantis rider more than I would like to admit. If only we had abrupt decay again lol. Tasigur has been good in my experiences, however I find it interesting that you think that the manabase can not support double black for heroes downfall when we have 12 black sources. I am going to try running them and I will let you know how it turns out.
I landed on deathdealer because I was only mildly impressed with warden. I am by no means saying that warden was bad but at the same time, he was not winning games on his own. The lifelink was fantastic when you are able to turn it on but those situations were few and far between in my experiences running him. Deathdealer on the other hand is a harder threat to get rid of and can attack thru problem creatures that would normally make warden but the brakes on (deathmist raptor, mantis rider,and courser just to name a few). In addition he also blocks well. I think that a shining point of this list is that there are a ton of mana sinks in our creatures so we always get to be efficient with our mana, and attacking for 6 with regen backup with the creature that you played way back on turn two is pretty powerful imo.
I 100% agree with the addition of the additional Kolaghan in the board. That choice makes a lot of sense in match ups where the ground is locked up. I feel as though taking to the skies and accelerating your clock is a good strategy when your opponent is siding to wall you and grind you out. If I am not too late good luck at the tournament. I look forward to reading your tournament report. GL
4 Den Protector
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
4 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malady
2 Temple of Malice
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
2 Ultimate Price
2 Crater's Claws
1 Stain the Mind
2 Lightning Berserker
2 Palace Siege
1 Virulent Plague
3 Boon Satyr
2 Feed the Clan
2 Rending Volley
3 Roast
really just trying to switch it up a bit, bored of playing the same old deck
the 1 of stain the mind is a bit awkward to me, so i added another raptor because why not there awesome.
BRU Grixis Control/delver URB
standard:
BWUEsper controlUWB
legacy:
UWRMiraclesRWU
Play more dorks, more lands, and why is Stain the Mind maindeck?
You have 10 B land sources to cast Hero's Downfall. Something like 12 sources if you include Caryatid. I'm not sure that Hero's Downfall is feasible.
someone took 1st with with from a invitational, just saw it and thought it would be fun, i took out stain the mind, but all the double colors where super hard to hit... my normal instant top 8 splits for TNM tunred into a 1-2 drop because i was always behind with this deck. Unless I could curve to double storm or regent storm kolghan it just wasnt good. probably wont stick with this list again more of a pain to play that fun.
BRU Grixis Control/delver URB
standard:
BWUEsper controlUWB
legacy:
UWRMiraclesRWU
------
GPT Utrecht 2.5.
Round 1, Atarka Red 2-1
Can't remember much about these games. My opponent was a very skilled player, but we both dropped a game due to mulliganing and mana screw or something and the 3rd one is decided by my powerful SB cards.
Round 2, 4c Rhino 2-1
I win the roll and accelerate into early Ashcloud Pheonix and a Dragonlord Kolaghan, while Thoughtseize removed one of his removals. My opponent doesn't have anything to stop my aerial assault and we move to SB games. I mistake his deck for a 4c whip deck, and side in my enchantment removal while keeping Kolaghan's Commands in. This proves to be a mistake as I get stomped by Siege Rhinos and Tasigurs. For G3 I get to be on the play again, and side in my anti-rhino removal. Chandra was also good at killing off his Satyr Wayfinders from sucking damage. I get to double Self-Inflicted Wound my opponent thanks to a Den Protector, and alongside Chandra this chip damage is enough to finish the game decisively.
Round 3, GR Jurassic Dragons 2-0
Once again I win the die roll. This MU is all about getting ahead in the race, since I can't compete with my opponent's Raptors and direct damage in the long run. I Kolaghan's Command away his morphed Rattleclaw Mystic, and lacking green sources and land drops in general he can't cast his spells on time, while my Ashcloud Phoenixes and Dragonlord Kolaghan hit for a bunch. Being on the draw is a very tough position, but my unexpected SB strategy pays off as I get to kill my opponent's two mana guys and a morphed Den Protector away with a Seismic Rupture. Kolaghan's Command kills of his last mana dork which he deploys after my turn, and my opponent is forced to discard a Dragonlord Atarka. At this point he is playing off the top of his deck, while I still have a ton of gas in my tank. Ultimate Price kills of the few dragons my opponent plays and the game is over fast.
Round 4, Esper Dragons 2-1
Pretty elementary stuff here. G1 I curve nicely into threats, and my Dragonlord Kolaghan and Ashcloud Pheonix prove to be too problematic. Kolaghan's Command was pivotal in ensuring I didn't run out of gas. G2 we again trade threats for answers. I eventually top deck a Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, and even threaten an ultimate, but my opponent top decks a Dragonlord Silumgar and steals the Sarkhan away, which unfortunately loses me the 2nd game. Such a bummer. I don't mind, since I know my chances of losing on the play are very slim.
Round 5, GR Dragons ID for top 4
In the end I'm the only player at 13 points, winning the swiss portion. This was certainly a great position to be in, as being on the play is highly advantageous.
Semis, 4c Rhino 2-0
Can't remember much, besides the fact that Dragonlord Kolaghan once again swung these games for me. The first game super close, as I get blown out by a morphed Sagu Mauler. I spend my removal to contain his siege rhinos, and the game ended on me blocking his 6/6 and 4/5 tramples at 7 life with a Tasigur and a Courser of Kruphix, while a Dragonlord Kolaghan and an Ashcloud Phoenix I'd drew off the top of my library dealt the final blow.
Finals, GR Dragons 1-2
Both of us draw serviceable hands in all games, but this time despite me being on the play I don't manage to draw enough fliers to clock my opponent. G1 I win since my opponent draws pretty slim, having a bunch of mana guys and a couple of Boon Satyrs. Xenagos, Tasigur and Courser were enough to grind him out. In G2 and G3 the ground gets shut by Deathmist Raptors and Den Protectors, and my Tasigurs do little to advance my game plan. Unfortunate loss, but can't complain since I lost probably to the best player in the room.
-----
I'll get back to the PPTQ breakdown after my FNM probably. List is similar to the previous iterations, but not quite identical!
1 Warden of the First Tree
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Kolaghan, the storm's fury
1 Den Protector
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
PWs (5):
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Other (9):
2 Thoughtseize
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Ultimate Price
2 Murderous Cut
1 Crater's Claws
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Roast
3 Seismic Rupture
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
Youtube Channel
Since mine are SB I usually only bring them in against control, whip, and slower midrange. Sometimes I'll bring it in against slower Rabblemaster decks in order to jump ahead in cards. I tend not to bring it in against Gx Ramp decks due to how quickly they can sometimes play their hand out. Perhaps it has a role when on the play.