Looks to be similar in terms of direction as your list.
Not really. I'm glad to see Jund get some press, and some card choices like Kolaghan's Command really enforce my positive opinion of them. However I imagine the deck plays out way differently. There is just no way I can see myself maindecking Garruk, Ugin or the new Sidisi and Wayfinders. He is also probably looking to abuse the +1 on Xenagos more than than using him as an offensive tool. It is crucial that my higher drops all have evasion because that's how I intend to win most of my games. Fabiano's list looks like it's trying to play the Siege Rhino game while being able to punish slow starts with Xenagos and Kolaghan, whereas my deck is usually always looking to overwhelm the opponent fast more like GR aggro decks.
Enough of Fabiano's list though, here's what I played to a 3-1 finish this friday!:
Some last minute SB changes were -2 Anger of the Gods, +1 Ultimate Price +1 Chandra. I wasn't really fond of the Angers + ramp plan combo so I decided to cut them from my SB. I chose to play Ultimate Price since it would be similarly good against GW devotion and because it's a great card against the GR aggro decks. Chandra on the other hand is great against tokens and pretty good against mono red and Abzan control too, which all were MUs I was looking to improve on with my SB. Chandra is the 3rd Outpost Siege mainly because there are some scenarios where the +1 ability will be super relevant.
Round 1, Jeskai Tokens 2-0
I absolutely demolished this guy. In the first game I used Thoughtseize to snatch his Jeskai Ascendancy, brickwalled the ground with a Courser and killed his Soulfire Grand Masters with Kolaghan's Commands and returned said Courser to my hand from GY. Once I found my Phoenix and Sarkhan I quickly closed the game. In G2 I drew my Reclamation Sage on t3 to destroy his Ascendancy, and the following turn I used Kolaghan's Command to burn his Soulfire Grandmaster and to return my Sage from GY to hand to destroy his Ascendancy AGAIN. Arc Lighting finished off his Monastery Mentor and his Monk token, leaving him with no resources. My opponent drew some cards with Treasure Cruise but nothing he did was of any relevance since I had found my Dragonlord Kolaghan.
My opponent was playing what was a Abzan Control deck splashing U for Silumgar's Commands, Ashioks and Negates at least. His deck was slightly slower than the regular Abzan decks, but he did play Siege Rhinos so I was mildly anxious. I managed to win the dieroll, which was just what I wanted. G1 I had the chance to land a T3 Ashcloud on an empty board, but decided to play a temple and a Thoughtseize to clear the way instead. This choice payed off big time, since instead of finding a Siege Rhino I got his Abzan Charm, leaving him with a Bile Blight, Tasigur and End Hostilities. Given that my threats in hand were Ashcloud Phoenix and Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker I was quite ecstatic. A Hero's Downfall, timely Siege Rhino and an Elspeth made the race quite close, but ultimately he had no way to remove my Phoenix from play and my Courser of Kruphix sealed the deal. G2 took basically no effort at all. I landed a T3 Xenagos, T4 Sarkhan and followed it with an Ashcloud Phoenix. Roast and Self-Inflicted wound destroyed his defences and the game was soon over.
I've come to the conclusion that his MU is probably the toughest one for me. My challenges were also heightened by the fact that piloting the deck was one Anssi Alkio (even though we weren't playing a Twin mirror match). G1 I was able to take win much like the G1 against the 4c deck. I played a mana accelerant, Thoughtseized his removal and landed an Ashcloud Phoenix (this time as a morph). Anssi took 4 damage from his own Thoughtseizes which weren't capable of stripping me from my aggressive tools. On t5 I flipped my Phoenix face-up, bringing him down to 9 on attacks. My courser revealed a Dragonlord Kolaghan off the top of my deck and we headed to G2. On G2 I was on the on draw and kept my hand of Caryatids and a Kolaghan. This game was soon over too, since I had no removal against his curve of Fleecemane, Anafenza, Siege Rhino. I felt I had decent chances of pulling a victory, being on the play again, but unfortunately my Courser of Kruphix for seized away and I didn't draw my 4th mana source until 2 turns too late.
This one was a nail-biter. G1 I get to be on the play, but mulligan to a weak hand. I deliver some early pressure with a Warden of the First Tree, supported by a Roast and a Thoughtseize, but fail to land my Dragonlord Kolaghan on time. His 3 Whisperwood Elementals and a Mastery of the Unseen close the door very fast. G2 was a crazy one - My opening hand had no real threats but a lot of ramp and removal instead. I Roast and Ultimate Price his biggest threats away and bring him to single digits with Elvish Mystics and Coursers. He draws a Polukranos, which I manage to Ultimate Price just in time before it would have taken over the game. My opponent's board is a Caryatid, a Voyaging Satyr and a Nylea which prevents me from attacking into his mana guys. I finally top deck an Ashcloud Pheonix, which is able to bring my opponent down despite him topdecking a Hornet Queen. G3 was a very different game - my opponent mulligans to 6 and I ramp into a t4 Dragonlord Kolaghan which he has no answer for. That's pretty much all it took to win the game.
Looks to be similar in terms of direction as your list.
Not really. I'm glad to see Jund get some press, and some card choices like Kolaghan's Command really enforce my positive opinion of them. However I imagine the deck plays out way differently. There is just no way I can see myself maindecking Garruk, Ugin or the new Sidisi and Wayfinders. He is also probably looking to abuse the +1 on Xenagos more than than using him as an offensive tool. It is crucial that my higher drops all have evasion because that's how I intend to win most of my games. Fabiano's list looks like it's trying to play the Siege Rhino game while being able to punish slow starts with Xenagos and Kolaghan, whereas my deck is usually always looking to overwhelm the opponent fast more like GR aggro decks.
Fabiano's deck is a midrange deck, like yours ought to be. You're running ramp creatures alongside aggro creatures like Warden. There's no reason to split the deck and go half way on two different game plans. If you want to play aggro cut the mana dorks, but at that point you're playing a worse version of GR Aggro due to the unnecessary black splash, or hell just play GR with the black splash for Ultimate Price and the dashing Kolaghan. Or build something more like Fabiano's deck that looks consistent and works towards winning the grind.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Looks to be similar in terms of direction as your list.
Not really. I'm glad to see Jund get some press, and some card choices like Kolaghan's Command really enforce my positive opinion of them. However I imagine the deck plays out way differently. There is just no way I can see myself maindecking Garruk, Ugin or the new Sidisi and Wayfinders. He is also probably looking to abuse the +1 on Xenagos more than than using him as an offensive tool. It is crucial that my higher drops all have evasion because that's how I intend to win most of my games. Fabiano's list looks like it's trying to play the Siege Rhino game while being able to punish slow starts with Xenagos and Kolaghan, whereas my deck is usually always looking to overwhelm the opponent fast more like GR aggro decks.
Fabiano's deck is a midrange deck, like yours ought to be. You're running ramp creatures alongside aggro creatures like Warden. There's no reason to split the deck and go half way on two different game plans. If you want to play aggro cut the mana dorks, but at that point you're playing a worse version of GR Aggro due to the unnecessary black splash, or hell just play GR with the black splash for Ultimate Price and the dashing Kolaghan. Or build something more like Fabiano's deck that looks consistent and works towards winning the grind.
I haven't played with Fabiano's list so I'd rather not discuss it too much. I don't think it's clever to try to grind out against Siege Rhino. The deck's game plan is totally dependant on the opponent. Sometimes I can afford to stay on D, sometimes I'm looking to race the opponent.
If you think my deck building approach is simply wrong and think your and Fabiano's list are better, that's fine. I just don't think that's the case.
I saw Fabiano's list yesterday and I may try a hybrid list of Fabiano's and Tiemuu's lists after States next week. I think both Kolaghan and his command are very powerful and I think Warden is excellent at being both an aggro and midrange creature. What made Jund Monsters so good last Standard was that it could play both the Aggro and Midrange game. I think the same is true now, you just don't get the CA of Domri Rade. I think this is where the Command really helps though, because you can punish the Abzan decks from trying to sit on removal, and provide you card advantage. I think Ugin is better off coming off the SB for Midrange and Control Matchups. I'll post up a rough draft of a list later this weekend.
Manabase probably needs corrected, but I'm not bothering with the math right now. If you want better removal in order to not have to play to the board as much, then do that, but you need more of a top end that can close games out. I really just feel like both Phoenix and Warden are underwhelming cards. I kinda feel that way too about Polukranos, but I just ported Jund Monsters from last season directly over to what cards you have available now.
Manabase probably needs corrected, but I'm not bothering with the math right now. If you want better removal in order to not have to play to the board as much, then do that, but you need more of a top end that can close games out. I really just feel like both Phoenix and Warden are underwhelming cards. I kinda feel that way too about Polukranos, but I just ported Jund Monsters from last season directly over to what cards you have available now.
I'm not interested in arguing over semantics. you can call this deck whatever you want. however saying "deck x is closer to the truest form of midrange decks, hence midrange deck x is more competitive than midrange deck y in any given metagame" is simply fallacious. I'm not particularly fond of porting over decks from previous standard formats either since that rarely works.
I saw Fabiano's list yesterday and I may try a hybrid list of Fabiano's and Tiemuu's lists after States next week. I think both Kolaghan and his command are very powerful and I think Warden is excellent at being both an aggro and midrange creature. What made Jund Monsters so good last Standard was that it could play both the Aggro and Midrange game. I think the same is true now, you just don't get the CA of Domri Rade. I think this is where the Command really helps though, because you can punish the Abzan decks from trying to sit on removal, and provide you card advantage. I think Ugin is better off coming off the SB for Midrange and Control Matchups. I'll post up a rough draft of a list later this weekend.
I definitely agree on your assessments. Just remember to keep in mind what your game plan is against different kind of decks. Sidisi, Undead Vizier is a fantastic card and will help you in games where you can afford to grind out. With my deck I found it too slow to tap 5 mana for a non-evasive threat since it isn't efficient enough. So when you are making your hybrid list, make sure you have a clear vision of how you intend to win your games.
Manabase probably needs corrected, but I'm not bothering with the math right now. If you want better removal in order to not have to play to the board as much, then do that, but you need more of a top end that can close games out. I really just feel like both Phoenix and Warden are underwhelming cards. I kinda feel that way too about Polukranos, but I just ported Jund Monsters from last season directly over to what cards you have available now.
I'm not interested in arguing over semantics. you can call this deck whatever you want. however saying "deck x is closer to the truest form of midrange decks, hence midrange deck x is more competitive than midrange deck y in any given metagame" is simply fallacious. I'm not particularly fond of porting over decks from previous standard formats either since that rarely works.
It's not about semantics or saying that there is a true way of building a deck. I just don't think your deck is built properly. It's not porting a deck over, but splashing a third color in a recently prominent aggro deck. I actually think its removal package looks solid depending on how Draconic Roar and Craters' Claws fit in the metagame. Kolaghan and Tasigur seem really good for that deck in the way that it struggles in some ways in the late game and not over committing to sweepers.
After getting the chance to watch Fabiano's list on camera, I didn't really like it. Insofar as it looked rather cumbersome, but I could be wrong. It definitely shifted over to a Whip deck, which doesn't do much for me.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Manabase probably needs corrected, but I'm not bothering with the math right now. If you want better removal in order to not have to play to the board as much, then do that, but you need more of a top end that can close games out. I really just feel like both Phoenix and Warden are underwhelming cards. I kinda feel that way too about Polukranos, but I just ported Jund Monsters from last season directly over to what cards you have available now.
I'm not interested in arguing over semantics. you can call this deck whatever you want. however saying "deck x is closer to the truest form of midrange decks, hence midrange deck x is more competitive than midrange deck y in any given metagame" is simply fallacious. I'm not particularly fond of porting over decks from previous standard formats either since that rarely works.
It's not about semantics or saying that there is a true way of building a deck. I just don't think your deck is built properly. It's not porting a deck over, but splashing a third color in a recently prominent aggro deck. I actually think its removal package looks solid depending on how Draconic Roar and Craters' Claws fit in the metagame. Kolaghan and Tasigur seem really good for that deck in the way that it struggles in some ways in the late game and not over committing to sweepers.
After getting the chance to watch Fabiano's list on camera, I didn't really like it. Insofar as it looked rather cumbersome, but I could be wrong. It definitely shifted over to a Whip deck, which doesn't do much for me.
The list itself doesn't look bad at all. However for me some things have been very apparent from my experience with the deck thus far. Evasion is absolutely key. Ashcloud Phoenix has been so, so good. Speaking of Ashcloud vs. Thunderbreak, I'm always thinking about how Thunderbreak Regent would play out if I had it instead of Phoenix in my hand or board, and Phoenix has been superb exactly for his resiliency.
I'm not a fan of big ground pounders like Polukranos or Surrak in these aggressively slanted decks and you can see even the RG decks moving away from those in favor of more fliers. Tasigur gets the nod from me solely for his ability to come down dirt cheap, and the build-in card advantage machine (for when I can afford to grind it out).
My deck is very reminiscent of RG aggro that also plays black spells. Its threat density is slightly lower, which seems bad, but cards like Thoughtseize and Kolaghan's Command often double as threats by nullifying a removal spell. The deck is more resilient against removal spells, but having the aggression is essential because otherwise you won't get to "turn on" the CA machines. When I force my opponent to spend removal on Ashcloud, I'm getting ahead. When I force my opponent to Downfall my Xenagos or Sarkhan (after a -3) I'm getting ahead. Courser of Kruphix is card advantage. The deck's plan is to leverage the cheap interaction and hard-to-kill threats to get ahead and force certain action from my opponent. Against faster decks these same cards present CA while being on the D too.
So definitely, if anything I'm looking to make this deck more aggressive. Thunderbreak Regent, Deathmist Raptor and Stormbreath Dragon are the kind of cards I can see supplementing this strategy.
We are seeing CVM playing with Elvish Mystics, Sylvan Caryatids, Courser of Kruphix and Ashcloud Phoenix in his RG aggro deck. So certainly this composition of cards has some merit.
The Sideboard is a WIP. I tested last night against a friends Temur Dragons build which I seemed to have the advantage in. Draconic Roar was great against his mana dorks allowing my dragons to end the game quickly. I also tested against Jeskai Herioc which was about a 50/50 matchup. The deck turns the tables against Herioc so fast if they don't have a quick hand. At the same time, he'd easily blow me out if I kept a heavy removal hand. I'm really enjoying the deck, Outpost Siege generates amazing value, and the deck seems to curve well consistently. I'm not sure I want to keep Ugin in the main, he may end up in the SB. The mana base worked well, but it was only a handful of test games. I never really wanted Whip, I tried it because Fabiano did, so I'll likely be cutting it. I think I'll probably add a 3rd Stormbreath, and not sure what else. I'm open to all criticism and suggestions!
This is my first rough draft of testing the deck, so it's definitely not focused in yet. Hero's Downfall hasn't been an issue yet, but I am only running Stormbreath wanting RR right now. I think trying to squeeze RR, BB, and GG on T4 will stress the mana base. I could probably move downfalls to the SB for midrange mirrors and control matchups. The deck should play well against the GR decks because it matches on curve while going bigger and has better removal. I'll revise my list some after work today. I'm hoping to test against Mono R and GR today.
This is my first rough draft of testing the deck, so it's definitely not focused in yet. Hero's Downfall hasn't been an issue yet, but I am only running Stormbreath wanting RR right now. I think trying to squeeze RR, BB, and GG on T4 will stress the mana base. I could probably move downfalls to the SB for midrange mirrors and control matchups. The deck should play well against the GR decks because it matches on curve while going bigger and has better removal. I'll revise my list some after work today. I'm hoping to test against Mono R and GR today.
I'm definitely interested in hearing how your deck plays out. Ultimate Price is a fantastic tool against both GR and mono red, and you might benefit from having more than just 1 in your 75.
I also think Ashcloud Phoenix is great against the GR decks. Your deck might be a little slow and having a 4-power flier that wins combat against Thunderbreak and Stormbreath is great way to pull ahead.
Man, the mana requirements are so steep here too. It's really interesting to see these new brews pop up, even if I don't think their game plan is super viable. Ashcloud Phoenix + Sidisi, Undead Vizier does make me feel warm and tingly inside, though.
Outpost Siege seems really bad with stuff like Atarka and Ugin in your list. God forbid you flip those with six lands in play. I would replace those with another Xenagos for ramp. I think if you want more card advantage run Tasigur. Then Satyr Wayfinder would be better too.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
I definitely want more Ultimate Price in the deck, my meta has a tendency to play the winning deck lists from the previous weekend. I was originally against Ashcloyd... But he works really well with Sidisi... Oh the fun to be had. I may look into the Thunderbreak's, unfortunately I only have 2 right now.
I definitely want more Ultimate Price in the deck, my meta has a tendency to play the winning deck lists from the previous weekend. I was originally against Ashcloyd... But he works really well with Sidisi... Oh the fun to be had. I may look into the Thunderbreak's, unfortunately I only have 2 right now.
I think you want more 4-drops that impact the board anyway, be it Regent or Ashcloud. In my opinion Ashcloud becomes more appealing the slower your deck is. Regent is a huge player in the GR aggro decks, and depending on your build he could be huge in Jund too, but even in my list I slightly prefer the Phoenix. If you are planning to play with Sidisi, Phoenix is easily superior.
Barich hasn't given a damn about his manabase and probably never will. #allthemanaconfluences
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Anywho, I posted this back in the GRx Monsters thread a couple days ago. It's not really a board control/aggro shell -- just an aggro shell. I made some changes from the original post and put it through a gauntlet for a couple hours Saturday.
The manabase is pretty wonky since it was misbuilt. I'm fairly certain that I have to either cut Flamewake or Boon Satyr since the mana is outrageous. In all likelihood I cut Flamewake. If I cut Flamewake I can drop a red source and up my t1 green sources for Mystic. And better yet, just play Courser.
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury got much better since the printing of Thunderbreak Regent and can end games in the flash of an eye -- ganking an opponent for 12 w/ Regent out of nowhere. When you have another dragon than Kolaghan attacking, you functionally get another 4/x hasty in the air. At worst it's a 5/5 haster that never blocks and you have to sink 5 mana into every turn; that's pretty bad but sometimes 5/5 w/ haste is all you need.
I'd like to try and cut a Crater's Claws for a Murderous Cut. Ultimate Price was rather efficient at clearing the way. Assuming things devolve into mid-range thrashfests, I'd like to be able to pump out removal for 1-2 mana.
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Kolaghan's Command will be an interesting card this standard. There will be weeks where it is one of the best cards in the format (I think this week it was one of the better cards due to how good it is against aggro; also noting how good it is against control decks leaning on spot removal) and weeks where it one of the weaker cards in the format (where at best it's a Funeral Charm against topdecking Courser strategies). I'd like to work it in my 60, but it may be a sideboard strategy at best.
Splashing black makes Caryatid even more appealing.
I mentioned Courser above as something I think I want over Flamewake. I'm going to be fitting in 3 by taking out 2x Flamewake and an unknown. I never really liked Courser in beatdown shells but I might not have an option. I ran Caryatid in Monsters in the fall, splashing for Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. I wasn't thrilled to play it there but maybe it belongs here.
I despise not giving Dragonlord Kolaghan a chance (the card is bonkers!), but given the composition of your deck its absence is probably excusable.
I could see it in the sideboard as a card to bring in against board control decks like Abzan control and other midrange dragon decks. 6cmc is a lot to ask of a deck with 24 land only running 6 mana dorks.
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What I'm most excited about for the black splash is the awesome SB cards and the ability to go longer. Can't really hate on that.
I'm really liking how this list is playing as of right now. I keep wanting more dragons, they're just so fun to play and can turn around games so easily.
So, I've been tinkering a bit with Jund Dragons recently, (in a way, aka Jund Midrange), and think it could be useful if I share my decklist and a rounds report from FNM last Friday (4/3/15). In some ways, the list is pretty similar to Tiemuuu's due to the general plan of "get big flying things and hit people", but mine's more loosely based in trying to get some Dragon synergy with things like Draconic Roar and SB Crux of Fate. I'm sure that the manabase needs help since I'm not great at those, and I ought to mention that some card decisions have been made due to lack of availability of copies (in particular, Stormbreath Dragon).
Round 1: Abzan Control/Midrange (1-2)
This round was really tough; we went into overtime, although I suspect that if it was at a more competitive event, I could have called my opponent for delay. I never was really able to determine the Abzan archetype while playing until I saw the End Hostilities Game 2, which may have been SB. My opponent described the deck as Abzan Midrange, but it played a lot more like Control than Midrange. I feel like the matchup is pretty even here. I lost a narrow Game 1, won Game 2 off of Crux of Fate, and got a bit unlucky Game 3 with a mulligan to five, with Wooded Foothills as the only land in-hand. Fortunately, 2 Elvish Mystics and a Sylvan Caryatid let me get a Xenagos, the Reveler in a comparatively insane start, but it inevitably couldn't last. SB Crux of Fate was an enormous powerhouse, here, as well as Dragonlord Kolaghan requiring an immediate answer or else significant damage would be incoming.
Round 2: Bye
Round 3: Esper Dragons (2-0)
I feel like this was a pretty experimental Esper build from my opponent, since Game 1 he flooded out early, even with Anticipate and Dig Through Time. Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury was a monster here, letting me hit for twelve alongside a Thunderbreak Regent. Dragon synergy is pretty great, plus dash is nice for dodging removal, to some degree. In general, my experience was that I consistently had more threats than he had answers, especially when I was able to ramp up early. Thoughtseize and Goblin Rabblemaster out of the SB did a lot of work. Also, major misplay on his part in using Encase in Ice on Thunderbreak Regent, in my opinion. Sure, he stopped it from hitting him in the face, but it significantly improved each dragon I later played.
Round 4: Abzan Warriors (0-2)
Ooh, this round was rough. I got completely destroyed, no question about it. This deck is outside the somewhat "regular" meta, but I would say that it's probably very similar to Abzan Aggro. Siege Rhino, Anafenza, the Foremost, etc. alongside early, effective warriors. I wouldn't anticipate seeing the deck around, since I suspect that the established Abzan Aggro is better than this Abzan Warriors, but conversely, I expect my variant on Jund Midrange to be pretty terrible against Abzan Aggro.
Card Choices:
Elvish Mystic: I don't think I like having a playset of this, especially with the high number of Temples I'm currently running. Also, it's a terrible topdeck. That being said, there are some T1 Mystic lines of play which lead to overwhelming victories (like T2 Goblin Rabblemaster, for example). I might trim these, though, if the deck drifts away from the acceleration goals and into a more grindy plan. Currently, I think I like two.
Dragonlord's Servant: I've not happened to draw these in the rather limited amount of time playing I've had with the deck, but I think they ought to be cut. The idea was that they'd reduce the cost on my dragons while at the same time giving me an early wall to kill X/1 creatures with v. aggro decks. In practice, this is only somewhat viable against Mono-Red, so I'd bring them into the deck if I expected a lot of Mono-Red, but otherwise leave it aside.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang: I'm planning to cut one of these for one of my (eventual) Stormbreath Dragon. They're currently in the deck to be something on the ground which doesn't die to Crux of Fate versus U/B control, and which also provides a bit of card advantage. Don't know how I feel about them in general, but I think it's good enough to keep a single.
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury: This card is, without a doubt, my MVP. It's one of the key reasons to include the dragons synergy package into Jund Midrange, alongside Crux of Fate. The extra damage this can toss down while having some slight protections from removal--and being able to leap out of nowhere--due to Dash is crazy.
Bile Blight: When I designed this deck, aggro decks were one of the major ones I had in mind. Even with them, though, I'm not sure the mana base can adequately support this. I'm not sure what to replace it with; maybe Ultimate Price, although I'm heavily considering Read the Bones. Drawing cards is just so good.
Rakshasa Deathdealer: I think I wanted this for matchups where being able to regenerate it would matter, but I'm no longer really sure where that is. I feel like it's a card worth considering for the archetype, but I'm unsure as to its role.
Anger of the Gods: Another card I'm hesitant on. I'd probably try replacing it with Drown in Sorrow, since that doesn't kill Sylvan Caryatid, and anything that runs three-toughness creatures we can probably just bring Crux of Fate in against.
Moving Forward:
I think I want more disruption in the deck. Kolaghan's Command seems like a good call, but I'm not sure how to fit it. I want the playset of Stormbreath Dragons, of course, as well as finishing the playset of Wooded Foothills and Courser of Kruphix, but I'm not sure what to trim for them. My (very loose) mental model for this deck is Abzan Midrange; I want something that is capable of accelerating into difficult to handle threats, but which loosely plans to be a grindy midrange deck that just powers through the wins. The biggest things I need to work on are the disruption/removal suite--which is probably always going to be pretty meta-dependent--the manabase, and the sideboard, in that order of importance (only because the manabase will need to be finalized after the rest of the deck). I'd love some suggestions/constructive criticism, or questions about how the deck seems to work!
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Standard: Currently messing with U/R or Mono-Red Artifacts, following Origins.
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo
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4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Malice
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Murderous Cut
3 Thoughtseize
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Whisperwood Elemental
2 Bile Blight
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Crux of Fate
1 Duress
1 In Garruk's Wake
2 Read the Bones
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Thoughtseize
Looks to be similar in terms of direction as your list.
Not really. I'm glad to see Jund get some press, and some card choices like Kolaghan's Command really enforce my positive opinion of them. However I imagine the deck plays out way differently. There is just no way I can see myself maindecking Garruk, Ugin or the new Sidisi and Wayfinders. He is also probably looking to abuse the +1 on Xenagos more than than using him as an offensive tool. It is crucial that my higher drops all have evasion because that's how I intend to win most of my games. Fabiano's list looks like it's trying to play the Siege Rhino game while being able to punish slow starts with Xenagos and Kolaghan, whereas my deck is usually always looking to overwhelm the opponent fast more like GR aggro decks.
Enough of Fabiano's list though, here's what I played to a 3-1 finish this friday!:
3 Elvish Mystic
2 Warden of the First Tree
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
Planeswalkers:
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Other:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Ultimate Price
2 Murderous Cut
1 Roast
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Temple of Malady
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Malice
3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Duress
2 Outpost Siege
1 Ultimate Price
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Arc Lightning
2 Roast
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
Some last minute SB changes were -2 Anger of the Gods, +1 Ultimate Price +1 Chandra. I wasn't really fond of the Angers + ramp plan combo so I decided to cut them from my SB. I chose to play Ultimate Price since it would be similarly good against GW devotion and because it's a great card against the GR aggro decks. Chandra on the other hand is great against tokens and pretty good against mono red and Abzan control too, which all were MUs I was looking to improve on with my SB. Chandra is the 3rd Outpost Siege mainly because there are some scenarios where the +1 ability will be super relevant.
Round 1, Jeskai Tokens 2-0
I absolutely demolished this guy. In the first game I used Thoughtseize to snatch his Jeskai Ascendancy, brickwalled the ground with a Courser and killed his Soulfire Grand Masters with Kolaghan's Commands and returned said Courser to my hand from GY. Once I found my Phoenix and Sarkhan I quickly closed the game. In G2 I drew my Reclamation Sage on t3 to destroy his Ascendancy, and the following turn I used Kolaghan's Command to burn his Soulfire Grandmaster and to return my Sage from GY to hand to destroy his Ascendancy AGAIN. Arc Lighting finished off his Monastery Mentor and his Monk token, leaving him with no resources. My opponent drew some cards with Treasure Cruise but nothing he did was of any relevance since I had found my Dragonlord Kolaghan.
MVPs: Kolaghan's Command (so sick!), Warden of the First Tree (in g1), Courser of Kruphix
Round 2, 4c Siege Rhino 2-0
My opponent was playing what was a Abzan Control deck splashing U for Silumgar's Commands, Ashioks and Negates at least. His deck was slightly slower than the regular Abzan decks, but he did play Siege Rhinos so I was mildly anxious. I managed to win the dieroll, which was just what I wanted. G1 I had the chance to land a T3 Ashcloud on an empty board, but decided to play a temple and a Thoughtseize to clear the way instead. This choice payed off big time, since instead of finding a Siege Rhino I got his Abzan Charm, leaving him with a Bile Blight, Tasigur and End Hostilities. Given that my threats in hand were Ashcloud Phoenix and Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker I was quite ecstatic. A Hero's Downfall, timely Siege Rhino and an Elspeth made the race quite close, but ultimately he had no way to remove my Phoenix from play and my Courser of Kruphix sealed the deal. G2 took basically no effort at all. I landed a T3 Xenagos, T4 Sarkhan and followed it with an Ashcloud Phoenix. Roast and Self-Inflicted wound destroyed his defences and the game was soon over.
MVPs: Achloud Phoenix, Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker, Xenagos, the Reveler
Round 3, Abzan Aggro 1-2
I've come to the conclusion that his MU is probably the toughest one for me. My challenges were also heightened by the fact that piloting the deck was one Anssi Alkio (even though we weren't playing a Twin mirror match). G1 I was able to take win much like the G1 against the 4c deck. I played a mana accelerant, Thoughtseized his removal and landed an Ashcloud Phoenix (this time as a morph). Anssi took 4 damage from his own Thoughtseizes which weren't capable of stripping me from my aggressive tools. On t5 I flipped my Phoenix face-up, bringing him down to 9 on attacks. My courser revealed a Dragonlord Kolaghan off the top of my deck and we headed to G2. On G2 I was on the on draw and kept my hand of Caryatids and a Kolaghan. This game was soon over too, since I had no removal against his curve of Fleecemane, Anafenza, Siege Rhino. I felt I had decent chances of pulling a victory, being on the play again, but unfortunately my Courser of Kruphix for seized away and I didn't draw my 4th mana source until 2 turns too late.
MVPs: Roast, Ashcloud Phoenix, Dragonlord Kolaghan
Round 4, GW devotion 2-1
This one was a nail-biter. G1 I get to be on the play, but mulligan to a weak hand. I deliver some early pressure with a Warden of the First Tree, supported by a Roast and a Thoughtseize, but fail to land my Dragonlord Kolaghan on time. His 3 Whisperwood Elementals and a Mastery of the Unseen close the door very fast. G2 was a crazy one - My opening hand had no real threats but a lot of ramp and removal instead. I Roast and Ultimate Price his biggest threats away and bring him to single digits with Elvish Mystics and Coursers. He draws a Polukranos, which I manage to Ultimate Price just in time before it would have taken over the game. My opponent's board is a Caryatid, a Voyaging Satyr and a Nylea which prevents me from attacking into his mana guys. I finally top deck an Ashcloud Pheonix, which is able to bring my opponent down despite him topdecking a Hornet Queen. G3 was a very different game - my opponent mulligans to 6 and I ramp into a t4 Dragonlord Kolaghan which he has no answer for. That's pretty much all it took to win the game.
MVPs: Ashcloud Phoenix, Dragonlord Kolaghan, Reclamation Sage, all removal
-----
all in all this deck was a blast to play, and I'm going to give it a spin in the next two PPTQs the next weekend and the weekend after that.
Youtube Channel
I haven't played with Fabiano's list so I'd rather not discuss it too much. I don't think it's clever to try to grind out against Siege Rhino. The deck's game plan is totally dependant on the opponent. Sometimes I can afford to stay on D, sometimes I'm looking to race the opponent.
If you think my deck building approach is simply wrong and think your and Fabiano's list are better, that's fine. I just don't think that's the case.
Youtube Channel
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Bring to Niv
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Legacy - Lands
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4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Heir of the Wilds
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Surrak, Hunt Caller
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Kolaghan's command
2 Ultimate Price
1 Murderous Cut
1 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Forest
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Mana Confluence
1 Haven o the Spirit Dragon
2 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Malice
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Duress
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Outpost Siege
2 Arc Lightning
1 Ultimate Price
1 Virulent Plague
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Roast
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
Manabase probably needs corrected, but I'm not bothering with the math right now. If you want better removal in order to not have to play to the board as much, then do that, but you need more of a top end that can close games out. I really just feel like both Phoenix and Warden are underwhelming cards. I kinda feel that way too about Polukranos, but I just ported Jund Monsters from last season directly over to what cards you have available now.
I'm not interested in arguing over semantics. you can call this deck whatever you want. however saying "deck x is closer to the truest form of midrange decks, hence midrange deck x is more competitive than midrange deck y in any given metagame" is simply fallacious. I'm not particularly fond of porting over decks from previous standard formats either since that rarely works.
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I definitely agree on your assessments. Just remember to keep in mind what your game plan is against different kind of decks. Sidisi, Undead Vizier is a fantastic card and will help you in games where you can afford to grind out. With my deck I found it too slow to tap 5 mana for a non-evasive threat since it isn't efficient enough. So when you are making your hybrid list, make sure you have a clear vision of how you intend to win your games.
Youtube Channel
After getting the chance to watch Fabiano's list on camera, I didn't really like it. Insofar as it looked rather cumbersome, but I could be wrong. It definitely shifted over to a Whip deck, which doesn't do much for me.
The list itself doesn't look bad at all. However for me some things have been very apparent from my experience with the deck thus far. Evasion is absolutely key. Ashcloud Phoenix has been so, so good. Speaking of Ashcloud vs. Thunderbreak, I'm always thinking about how Thunderbreak Regent would play out if I had it instead of Phoenix in my hand or board, and Phoenix has been superb exactly for his resiliency.
I'm not a fan of big ground pounders like Polukranos or Surrak in these aggressively slanted decks and you can see even the RG decks moving away from those in favor of more fliers. Tasigur gets the nod from me solely for his ability to come down dirt cheap, and the build-in card advantage machine (for when I can afford to grind it out).
My deck is very reminiscent of RG aggro that also plays black spells. Its threat density is slightly lower, which seems bad, but cards like Thoughtseize and Kolaghan's Command often double as threats by nullifying a removal spell. The deck is more resilient against removal spells, but having the aggression is essential because otherwise you won't get to "turn on" the CA machines. When I force my opponent to spend removal on Ashcloud, I'm getting ahead. When I force my opponent to Downfall my Xenagos or Sarkhan (after a -3) I'm getting ahead. Courser of Kruphix is card advantage. The deck's plan is to leverage the cheap interaction and hard-to-kill threats to get ahead and force certain action from my opponent. Against faster decks these same cards present CA while being on the D too.
So definitely, if anything I'm looking to make this deck more aggressive. Thunderbreak Regent, Deathmist Raptor and Stormbreath Dragon are the kind of cards I can see supplementing this strategy.
Youtube Channel
Youtube Channel
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Elvish Mystic
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Dragonlord Atarka
Planeswalkers
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Outpost Siege
1 Whip of Erebos
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hero's Downfall
2 Draconic Roar
1 Ultimate Price
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Murderous Cut
Land
4 Temple of Malady
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mountain
1 Mana Confluence
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The Sideboard is a WIP. I tested last night against a friends Temur Dragons build which I seemed to have the advantage in. Draconic Roar was great against his mana dorks allowing my dragons to end the game quickly. I also tested against Jeskai Herioc which was about a 50/50 matchup. The deck turns the tables against Herioc so fast if they don't have a quick hand. At the same time, he'd easily blow me out if I kept a heavy removal hand. I'm really enjoying the deck, Outpost Siege generates amazing value, and the deck seems to curve well consistently. I'm not sure I want to keep Ugin in the main, he may end up in the SB. The mana base worked well, but it was only a handful of test games. I never really wanted Whip, I tried it because Fabiano did, so I'll likely be cutting it. I think I'll probably add a 3rd Stormbreath, and not sure what else. I'm open to all criticism and suggestions!
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Legacy - Lands
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I also found that Hero's Downfall had too steep mana requirements, so keep an eye out for that.
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I'm definitely interested in hearing how your deck plays out. Ultimate Price is a fantastic tool against both GR and mono red, and you might benefit from having more than just 1 in your 75.
I also think Ashcloud Phoenix is great against the GR decks. Your deck might be a little slow and having a 4-power flier that wins combat against Thunderbreak and Stormbreath is great way to pull ahead.
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Man, the mana requirements are so steep here too. It's really interesting to see these new brews pop up, even if I don't think their game plan is super viable. Ashcloud Phoenix + Sidisi, Undead Vizier does make me feel warm and tingly inside, though.
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I think you want more 4-drops that impact the board anyway, be it Regent or Ashcloud. In my opinion Ashcloud becomes more appealing the slower your deck is. Regent is a huge player in the GR aggro decks, and depending on your build he could be huge in Jund too, but even in my list I slightly prefer the Phoenix. If you are planning to play with Sidisi, Phoenix is easily superior.
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Barich hasn't given a damn about his manabase and probably never will. #allthemanaconfluences
__________________________________________
Anywho, I posted this back in the GRx Monsters thread a couple days ago. It's not really a board control/aggro shell -- just an aggro shell. I made some changes from the original post and put it through a gauntlet for a couple hours Saturday.
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Heir of the Wilds
2x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Fanatic of Xenagos
2x Boon Satyr
2x Flamewake Phoenix
4x Thunderbreak Regent
1x Ashcloud Phoenix
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
3x Wild Slash
3x Crater's Claws
1x Ultimate Price
Land (24)
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Temple of Abandon
1x Temple of Malice
1x Temple of Malady
1x Mana Confluence
2x Llanowar Wastes
1x Swamp
4x Mountain
3x Forest
The manabase is pretty wonky since it was misbuilt. I'm fairly certain that I have to either cut Flamewake or Boon Satyr since the mana is outrageous. In all likelihood I cut Flamewake. If I cut Flamewake I can drop a red source and up my t1 green sources for Mystic. And better yet, just play Courser.
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury got much better since the printing of Thunderbreak Regent and can end games in the flash of an eye -- ganking an opponent for 12 w/ Regent out of nowhere. When you have another dragon than Kolaghan attacking, you functionally get another 4/x hasty in the air. At worst it's a 5/5 haster that never blocks and you have to sink 5 mana into every turn; that's pretty bad but sometimes 5/5 w/ haste is all you need.
I'd like to try and cut a Crater's Claws for a Murderous Cut. Ultimate Price was rather efficient at clearing the way. Assuming things devolve into mid-range thrashfests, I'd like to be able to pump out removal for 1-2 mana.
_______________________________
Kolaghan's Command will be an interesting card this standard. There will be weeks where it is one of the best cards in the format (I think this week it was one of the better cards due to how good it is against aggro; also noting how good it is against control decks leaning on spot removal) and weeks where it one of the weaker cards in the format (where at best it's a Funeral Charm against topdecking Courser strategies). I'd like to work it in my 60, but it may be a sideboard strategy at best.
Splashing black makes Caryatid even more appealing.
The more linear your deck gets the worse Kolaghan's Command ís, probably. Insurance against Whip and Vault can be huge though.
Ultimate Price can be dead sometimes, but it's still a trump against other aggressive decks. Mana advantage is pretty key.
I despise not giving Dragonlord Kolaghan a chance (the card is bonkers!), but given the composition of your deck its absence is probably excusable.
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I mentioned Courser above as something I think I want over Flamewake. I'm going to be fitting in 3 by taking out 2x Flamewake and an unknown. I never really liked Courser in beatdown shells but I might not have an option. I ran Caryatid in Monsters in the fall, splashing for Ajani, Mentor of Heroes. I wasn't thrilled to play it there but maybe it belongs here.
Hence it's in the 75, but unlikely to be in the MD.
I could see it in the sideboard as a card to bring in against board control decks like Abzan control and other midrange dragon decks. 6cmc is a lot to ask of a deck with 24 land only running 6 mana dorks.
______________________________
What I'm most excited about for the black splash is the awesome SB cards and the ability to go longer. Can't really hate on that.
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Elvish Mystic
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Ashcloud Phoenix
2 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
1 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Thoughtseize
3 Outpost Siege
3 Draconic Roar
2 Ultimate Price
1 Hero's Downfall
Planeswalkers
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
Land
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Abandon
3 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Swamp
2 Temple of Malice
1 Mountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I'm really liking how this list is playing as of right now. I keep wanting more dragons, they're just so fun to play and can turn around games so easily.
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Legacy - Lands
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2 Elvish Mystic
2 Dragonlord's Servant
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Courser of Kruphix
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
1 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Sorceries (1):
1 Crater's Claws
Instants (5):
2 Bile Blight
2 Draconic Roar
1 Murderous Cut
2 Outpost Siege
Planeswalkers (3):
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
Lands (24):
1 Swamp
3 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Malady
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mana Confluence
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Temple of Abandon
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Rakshasa Deathdealer
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Crux of Fate
2 Roast
Games Report:
Round 1: Abzan Control/Midrange (1-2)
This round was really tough; we went into overtime, although I suspect that if it was at a more competitive event, I could have called my opponent for delay. I never was really able to determine the Abzan archetype while playing until I saw the End Hostilities Game 2, which may have been SB. My opponent described the deck as Abzan Midrange, but it played a lot more like Control than Midrange. I feel like the matchup is pretty even here. I lost a narrow Game 1, won Game 2 off of Crux of Fate, and got a bit unlucky Game 3 with a mulligan to five, with Wooded Foothills as the only land in-hand. Fortunately, 2 Elvish Mystics and a Sylvan Caryatid let me get a Xenagos, the Reveler in a comparatively insane start, but it inevitably couldn't last. SB Crux of Fate was an enormous powerhouse, here, as well as Dragonlord Kolaghan requiring an immediate answer or else significant damage would be incoming.
Round 2: Bye
Round 3: Esper Dragons (2-0)
I feel like this was a pretty experimental Esper build from my opponent, since Game 1 he flooded out early, even with Anticipate and Dig Through Time. Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury was a monster here, letting me hit for twelve alongside a Thunderbreak Regent. Dragon synergy is pretty great, plus dash is nice for dodging removal, to some degree. In general, my experience was that I consistently had more threats than he had answers, especially when I was able to ramp up early. Thoughtseize and Goblin Rabblemaster out of the SB did a lot of work. Also, major misplay on his part in using Encase in Ice on Thunderbreak Regent, in my opinion. Sure, he stopped it from hitting him in the face, but it significantly improved each dragon I later played.
Round 4: Abzan Warriors (0-2)
Ooh, this round was rough. I got completely destroyed, no question about it. This deck is outside the somewhat "regular" meta, but I would say that it's probably very similar to Abzan Aggro. Siege Rhino, Anafenza, the Foremost, etc. alongside early, effective warriors. I wouldn't anticipate seeing the deck around, since I suspect that the established Abzan Aggro is better than this Abzan Warriors, but conversely, I expect my variant on Jund Midrange to be pretty terrible against Abzan Aggro.
Card Choices:
Elvish Mystic: I don't think I like having a playset of this, especially with the high number of Temples I'm currently running. Also, it's a terrible topdeck. That being said, there are some T1 Mystic lines of play which lead to overwhelming victories (like T2 Goblin Rabblemaster, for example). I might trim these, though, if the deck drifts away from the acceleration goals and into a more grindy plan. Currently, I think I like two.
Dragonlord's Servant: I've not happened to draw these in the rather limited amount of time playing I've had with the deck, but I think they ought to be cut. The idea was that they'd reduce the cost on my dragons while at the same time giving me an early wall to kill X/1 creatures with v. aggro decks. In practice, this is only somewhat viable against Mono-Red, so I'd bring them into the deck if I expected a lot of Mono-Red, but otherwise leave it aside.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang: I'm planning to cut one of these for one of my (eventual) Stormbreath Dragon. They're currently in the deck to be something on the ground which doesn't die to Crux of Fate versus U/B control, and which also provides a bit of card advantage. Don't know how I feel about them in general, but I think it's good enough to keep a single.
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury: This card is, without a doubt, my MVP. It's one of the key reasons to include the dragons synergy package into Jund Midrange, alongside Crux of Fate. The extra damage this can toss down while having some slight protections from removal--and being able to leap out of nowhere--due to Dash is crazy.
Bile Blight: When I designed this deck, aggro decks were one of the major ones I had in mind. Even with them, though, I'm not sure the mana base can adequately support this. I'm not sure what to replace it with; maybe Ultimate Price, although I'm heavily considering Read the Bones. Drawing cards is just so good.
Rakshasa Deathdealer: I think I wanted this for matchups where being able to regenerate it would matter, but I'm no longer really sure where that is. I feel like it's a card worth considering for the archetype, but I'm unsure as to its role.
Anger of the Gods: Another card I'm hesitant on. I'd probably try replacing it with Drown in Sorrow, since that doesn't kill Sylvan Caryatid, and anything that runs three-toughness creatures we can probably just bring Crux of Fate in against.
Moving Forward:
I think I want more disruption in the deck. Kolaghan's Command seems like a good call, but I'm not sure how to fit it. I want the playset of Stormbreath Dragons, of course, as well as finishing the playset of Wooded Foothills and Courser of Kruphix, but I'm not sure what to trim for them. My (very loose) mental model for this deck is Abzan Midrange; I want something that is capable of accelerating into difficult to handle threats, but which loosely plans to be a grindy midrange deck that just powers through the wins. The biggest things I need to work on are the disruption/removal suite--which is probably always going to be pretty meta-dependent--the manabase, and the sideboard, in that order of importance (only because the manabase will need to be finalized after the rest of the deck). I'd love some suggestions/constructive criticism, or questions about how the deck seems to work!
Modern: Budget U/R Burn
Legacy: LOLnope
Vintage: See previous
Commander: Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Tiny Commander: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo