What happens against a boardwipe? It just loses? Seems actually more abysmal than any of the decks here. It's going to need a lot more explanation before I consider it remotely better than my build/anyone else's here. That list looks more like a pile of GW cards than anything.
I like Surrak and Boon Satyr, those are cool ideas.
What happens against a boardwipe? It just loses? Seems actually more abysmal than any of the decks here. It's going to need a lot more explanation before I consider it remotely better than my build/anyone else's here. That list looks more like a pile of GW cards than anything.
I like Surrak and Boon Satyr, those are cool ideas.
it's better to be good against some things and lose to others, instead of just trying to cover all angles. that's my main critique of the lists here. They're not as low to ground as they shoudl be.
Ross's list does have game against boardwipes too. EOT Boon Satyr into Surrak is pretty Brutal. Then there is the Valorous Stance. My main point is, however, that just because a list is weak to one specific type of card doesn't mean the deck is bad in general.
What happens against a boardwipe? It just loses? Seems actually more abysmal than any of the decks here. It's going to need a lot more explanation before I consider it remotely better than my build/anyone else's here. That list looks more like a pile of GW cards than anything.
I like Surrak and Boon Satyr, those are cool ideas.
it's better to be good against some things and lose to others, instead of just trying to cover all angles. that's my main critique of the lists here. They're not as low to ground as they shoudl be.
Ross's list does have game against boardwipes too. EOT Boon Satyr into Surrak is pretty Brutal. Then there is the Valorous Stance. My main point is, however, that just because a list is weak to one specific type of card doesn't mean the deck is bad in general.
I'd question running 4 of a legendary and boon satyr could end up being a two for one in the new meta dromaka command against it is a major blowout?
I think secure the wastes could be good in the SB in that list perhaps against control.
If you opt to play 0 enchantments in any of your decks post DTK just because of Dromoka's Command, then sure, don't play Boon Satyr either.
I still think keeping black in the deck for hero's downfall and siege rhino is perfectly acceptable. It takes away our fear of planeswalkers/stormbreath, and simply makes the deck stronger card for card. Also take note that he was able to pull off running 3-4 of his legendary creatures without much problem.
What happens against a boardwipe? It just loses? Seems actually more abysmal than any of the decks here. It's going to need a lot more explanation before I consider it remotely better than my build/anyone else's here. That list looks more like a pile of GW cards than anything.
I like Surrak and Boon Satyr, those are cool ideas.
it's better to be good against some things and lose to others, instead of just trying to cover all angles. that's my main critique of the lists here. They're not as low to ground as they shoudl be.
Ross's list does have game against boardwipes too. EOT Boon Satyr into Surrak is pretty Brutal. Then there is the Valorous Stance. My main point is, however, that just because a list is weak to one specific type of card doesn't mean the deck is bad in general.
I'd question running 4 of a legendary and boon satyr could end up being a two for one in the new meta dromaka command against it is a major blowout?
I think secure the wastes could be good in the SB in that list perhaps against control.
If you opt to play 0 enchantments in any of your decks post DTK just because of Dromoka's Command, then sure, don't play Boon Satyr either.
Its not just command..people are maindecking the enchant hate already.
none of those are 2-for-1's though. If your opponent Sultai Charms your Boon Satyr, it doesn't make any difference if he Downfalled it instead. Just saying. I can't think of any other relevant MD enchantment hate.
I think we pull all Temples and replace with Mana Confluence. Otherwise, this is just another midrange deck.
Unless you play a mono-colored deck, can this be serious in the format ?
Well that's an interesting comment. So you think I'm talking about putting Mana Confluence in a mono colored deck?
If you look at the decks being posted here (except for the Abzan person who is in the wrong thread), they are typically running a small mixture of ETB tapped lands. It is my belief that in an aggro deck, every turn counts, and you cannot afford to, say, on turn 1, or on turn 3, put an ETB tapped land into play and play something less than what you otherwise would have played, scry or not. In a full aggro deck, your life total doesn't matter, theirs does.
Depending on the mix of casting costs, I would think a mana base for this deck SHOULD look like:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Mana Confluence
8x Forest / 7x Plains or vice versa
Especially if the list tops out at a 4-drop, I think 23 lands with this mix is ideal.
I see what you mean, guess I mean if boon is used as a combat trick. Still I'm wary in dkr, if that one drop enchant creature sees play, mastery of the unseen is a pain already and outpost siege is in every red deck with red being even stronger now. Citadel siege is even seeing play too...dromokas charm is going to be huge I think.
I agree it is a good thing if your deck is immune to enchantment hate. however as mentioned Boon Satyr allows you to play a different kind of game and gives you a lot of play against wraths, which have always been GW aggro's biggest problem. I think the pros outweight the cons in any case.
Having played Boon Satyr in beatdown lists since September, worrying about him being an enchantment is not a real worry.
Things I worry about while playing Boon Satyr:
-- doesn't block 2 drops profitably
-- is double green which can sometimes be difficult on your mana base (not a foreseeable problem in this deck)
-- he doesn't have any sort of evasion
Play powerful cards guys. Boon Satyr is a good beatdown card. Play it.
Well actually I think we're going to see a rise of esper and UW control whos sweeper actually gets rid of Boon Satyr. I also think while it's okay to be weak to a boardwipe, it's not okay to be unable to recover. The boon satyr into Surrak can hurt real bad but then that requires a lot of mana to pull off. With this build we have a way of completely mitigating destroy effects and wraths, while actually getting an advantage. Turning its greatest weakness actually into a strength. I also think we actually have pretty good match ups not simply average. IDK. I believe in the heart of the cards! Lol.
Well actually I think we're going to see a rise of esper and UW control whos sweeper actually gets rid of Boon Satyr. I also think while it's okay to be weak to a boardwipe, it's not okay to be unable to recover. The boon satyr into Surrak can hurt real bad but then that requires a lot of mana to pull off. With this build we have a way of completely mitigating destroy effects and wraths, while actually getting an advantage. Turning its greatest weakness actually into a strength. I also think we actually have pretty good match ups not simply average. IDK. I believe in the heart of the cards! Lol.
well, if you're dumb enough to bestow a Boon Satyr on a creature, knowing your opponent plays End Hostilities, you pretty much deserve what's coming for you. If you play your cards sub-optimally, then it's your own fault you lose, not the cards'.
The boon satyr into Surrak can hurt real bad but then that requires a lot of mana to pull off.
3 mana to cast Boon Satyr EOT, 4 mana to cast Surrak. How is that a lot of mana?
But then your same argument can be used. Why play sub optimal cards when there is a better alternative?
I guess EOT Boon Satyr could work, and following it up with Surrak could hurt but then you have to hold onto Satyr and Surrak. And have them both. Idk, just seems fragile to me. I'd rather they just got indestructible and drew more cards and rely on only 1 card that also works against spot removal.
I actually agree with Tiemuuu on most points. I was brewing a GW aggro deck looking at DTK cards and an efficient beatdown list similar to Abzan aggro but with a faster mana base and a few different threats is appealing. I think people in this thread are set on making something more thematic/casual.
A lot of the creatures in these lists are a huge pain in the butt to deal with. Fleecemane lion goes nuts monstrous, Warden is a mana sink, Boon Satyr is cast at instant removal/bestows at instant speed. That's the point of the deck. You're not playing some midrangey shell hoping to get Elspeth out or playing tempo. You're beating their face in with annoying, efficient creatures and a more consistent mana base.
I think I am going to go more of a midrange style deck with cards like Elspeth and Securing the Wastes available. I would rather play Securing the Wastes than Boon Satyr EOT. Aggro is cool for Abzan, I just feel that this has great low drops but cannot go over the top. Idk I will do some extensive testing this weekend. I have a case of this set coming my way.
There's a lot of different builds for GW aggro going around. It's really really awesome. If you do go midrange @Apex_Predator117 I'd suggest creating another thread because I really would like to focus on aggro here in this thread (especially with SO many different builds going around).
I'm a spike at heart, I like winning. But at the same time I want something original. I honestly think that counters are a powerful archetype. Of course there are other powerful archetypes as well and I really enjoy reading it all. It makes me think about card choices etc, so whatever list works for you personally is what works. All I ask is that you not say one is much better than others, or vise versa, but rather highlight the differences/weaknesses/strengths and what to change but most importantly WHY they should change it.
Depending on the mix of casting costs, I would think a mana base for this deck SHOULD look like:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Mana Confluence
8x Forest / 7x Plains or vice versa
Omg ! Sorry but no. Don't advise people to play 4 Mana confluences, it's just a very very bad idea. It sounds like an advice before Conf' was released a couple of years ago. Temples are needed, period. Conf' can't be a 4-of here, period. That's why mono-colored aggro decks work better than other aggros, it's because their manabase is painless and this is key in the aggro mirrors (and actually other MUs too).
Each tapped land we add is painful, each mana conf' as well. Specifically here, GW aggro can't be as fast as low-curve aggro decks, so with a curve topping at 4-5, playing taplands is less painful than mana conf'. Adding a 5th tapped land like Blossoming Sands may be necessary to lower color deaths in white-intensive decks.
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Thank you for a worthless post Tiemuuu. If you want to take part in the conversation, the post the list and why you think it is better. Anything short of that is just trolling. Go troll somewhere else.
I am opposed to Temple of Plenty in this deck. This is an aggro deck, and you can't afford to have lands coming into play tapped. Also, because it's an aggro deck, our life total is not that important. I think we pull all Temples and replace with Mana Confluence. Otherwise, this is just another midrange deck.
As opposed to these decks that have a 1 mana do nothing enchantment and the counter nonsense that is going to be shredded by a meta with so much removal in the targeted and mass varieties. Not to mention the green one drops into double white if there is any hope of pulling off the gimmick.
Anafenza can easily be replaced, it would probably turn to Boon Satyr or Warden if you like. The "counter nonsense" losing to removal is a kinda crap argument when other decks also lose to removal. Though I do agree, there ARE bad cards/too gimmicky to work/win-more like: Gleam of Authority, Hardened Scales. The non-counter doesn't have a way of dealing with boardwipes (Meriam evens says so himself) where we do in Inspiring Call, if you know your opponent is playing burn as their primary form of removal we also have Dromoka's Command in our colors.
I beg you guys to just try the deck before dismissing it as crap. Just because the pros aren't doing it (possibly yet) doesn't mean it's not good/can't be good maybe it won't be top 8 Pro Tour, maybe it could! Maybe it's only FNM level, maybe it's tournament worthy! But just saying "Yeah that deck blows" without real context is pretty lame. I honestly would like to hear constructive criticism, this card vs this card, scenarios and etc. THAT is what helps. That said, I'll try to work on a more traditional GW aggro variant to please the counters haters.
No bashing archetypes: that goes for everyone. Preferences are perfectly fine, just explain what you like/don't like. But we can keep all the different variants here. Porque no los dos?
I'm playing Surrak and ok, he's a bomb. What we can already read here and there is real : hasty Surrak puts enough pressure for the format. I compared it to High Sentinels of Arashin, and I still think both are good. Sentinels is better than it used to be now DTK is here because Roast, Thunderbreak Regent and Stoke the Flames are expected to be everywhere ; It denies these cards.
Surrak on the other hand fits wonderfully to the classic GW aggro gameplay : tricks, timing, no over-extension. In terms of offense, he does something better than Sentinels : rush into Stormbreath Dragon. This guy kills GW on his own. So the only MD way to beat it is to race it. The already popular Boon Satyr into Surrak play is very appealing and... it works. That 4/x power is very important in the archetype since we don't have many creatures that big at 3 cmc (we can think of Reverent Hunter).
Another wonderful guy is Deathmist Raptor. He has the same role as Heir of the Wilds, and it sounds natural to me to simply play 4 copies of each now I tried them together. With a SB oriented to morph resiliency, it helps the control MU very much, as we can already notice in GW devotion. A package of some Mastery of the Unseen and Whisperwood Elemental in the board should do it.
Now, there's a slot I'm unsure about, it's Warden of the First Tree. I might just fill the slots with bigger threats, but it just hasn't disappointed me so far. Gaining life is key in the red aggro MUs, which are quite difficult (that's why I can't see myself play less than 3 Surge of Righteousness in the SB right now). And I also play a couple of Den Protectors because I can't figure out a better card in that slot. It goes through Elspeth's tokens, races other aggro decks, and gets back Raptors in late game. It's a lot for such a small creature.
The Confrontation could be Plummet, basically it's here to kill fliers and SBD that would race me.
Ajani is an extra life-gainer because red MUs tend to be the worst ones. Secure the wastes can answer tokens, very fast aggros but also be an extra Boon Satyr-esque threat against control.
If you have ideas or see MUs where GW struggles overall, please share.
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Headminerve gets it, the cards you want to be looking at are Deathmist raptor, the New Surrak, Hidden Dragon slayer/Den protector, 4x dromokas command
Im not at home right now but the deck I built had something like
4 x Fleeceman Lion
4 x Deathmist Raptor
3 x Surrak Caller of the Hunt
4 x Hidden Dragon Slayer (lifegain and the ability to kill other big threats helps against burn and swinging)
2 x Warden of the First Tree
4 x Dromokas Command
4 x Collected Company
2 x Spirit of Anafenza
4 x Valorous Stance
2 x Ajani mentor of heroes
3 x Banishing Light
I think the numbers can be tinkered with, and I think Den protector could be a good addition, Collected, and Dromokas Command should be in every g/w deck
i'm not sure.. Servant of the Scale gets killed/destroyed his ability goes on the stack, i would say yes. For his ability to go on the stack he would have to be moved to the graveyard thus boon satyr has already fallen off the creature and then his triggered ability could resolve placing the counter on Boon satyr..at least that how i see it.
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I like Surrak and Boon Satyr, those are cool ideas.
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it's better to be good against some things and lose to others, instead of just trying to cover all angles. that's my main critique of the lists here. They're not as low to ground as they shoudl be.
Ross's list does have game against boardwipes too. EOT Boon Satyr into Surrak is pretty Brutal. Then there is the Valorous Stance. My main point is, however, that just because a list is weak to one specific type of card doesn't mean the deck is bad in general.
Youtube Channel
If you opt to play 0 enchantments in any of your decks post DTK just because of Dromoka's Command, then sure, don't play Boon Satyr either.
Youtube Channel
The main things you should notice are the mana base and creature/spell ratio.
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Rakshasa Deathdealer
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Boon Satyr
4 Siege Rhino
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants
3 Valorous Stance
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Abzan Charm
4 Mana Confluence
4 Windswept Heath
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malady
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Back to Nature
1 Murderous Cut
I still think keeping black in the deck for hero's downfall and siege rhino is perfectly acceptable. It takes away our fear of planeswalkers/stormbreath, and simply makes the deck stronger card for card. Also take note that he was able to pull off running 3-4 of his legendary creatures without much problem.
RGW Naya Company
RWB Mardu Control
Unless you play a mono-colored deck, can this be serious in the format ?
none of those are 2-for-1's though. If your opponent Sultai Charms your Boon Satyr, it doesn't make any difference if he Downfalled it instead. Just saying. I can't think of any other relevant MD enchantment hate.
Youtube Channel
Well that's an interesting comment. So you think I'm talking about putting Mana Confluence in a mono colored deck?
If you look at the decks being posted here (except for the Abzan person who is in the wrong thread), they are typically running a small mixture of ETB tapped lands. It is my belief that in an aggro deck, every turn counts, and you cannot afford to, say, on turn 1, or on turn 3, put an ETB tapped land into play and play something less than what you otherwise would have played, scry or not. In a full aggro deck, your life total doesn't matter, theirs does.
Depending on the mix of casting costs, I would think a mana base for this deck SHOULD look like:
4x Windswept Heath
4x Mana Confluence
8x Forest / 7x Plains or vice versa
Especially if the list tops out at a 4-drop, I think 23 lands with this mix is ideal.
I agree it is a good thing if your deck is immune to enchantment hate. however as mentioned Boon Satyr allows you to play a different kind of game and gives you a lot of play against wraths, which have always been GW aggro's biggest problem. I think the pros outweight the cons in any case.
Youtube Channel
Things I worry about while playing Boon Satyr:
-- doesn't block 2 drops profitably
-- is double green which can sometimes be difficult on your mana base (not a foreseeable problem in this deck)
-- he doesn't have any sort of evasion
Play powerful cards guys. Boon Satyr is a good beatdown card. Play it.
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well, if you're dumb enough to bestow a Boon Satyr on a creature, knowing your opponent plays End Hostilities, you pretty much deserve what's coming for you. If you play your cards sub-optimally, then it's your own fault you lose, not the cards'.
3 mana to cast Boon Satyr EOT, 4 mana to cast Surrak. How is that a lot of mana?
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I guess EOT Boon Satyr could work, and following it up with Surrak could hurt but then you have to hold onto Satyr and Surrak. And have them both. Idk, just seems fragile to me. I'd rather they just got indestructible and drew more cards and rely on only 1 card that also works against spot removal.
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A lot of the creatures in these lists are a huge pain in the butt to deal with. Fleecemane lion goes nuts monstrous, Warden is a mana sink, Boon Satyr is cast at instant removal/bestows at instant speed. That's the point of the deck. You're not playing some midrangey shell hoping to get Elspeth out or playing tempo. You're beating their face in with annoying, efficient creatures and a more consistent mana base.
I'm a spike at heart, I like winning. But at the same time I want something original. I honestly think that counters are a powerful archetype. Of course there are other powerful archetypes as well and I really enjoy reading it all. It makes me think about card choices etc, so whatever list works for you personally is what works. All I ask is that you not say one is much better than others, or vise versa, but rather highlight the differences/weaknesses/strengths and what to change but most importantly WHY they should change it.
Brew on MTGers.
My new list:
4x Avatar of the Resolute
2x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Fleecemane Lion
2x Den Protector
4x Salt Road Quartermasters
4x High Sentinels of Arashin
2x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
Land (23):
4x Windswept Heath
4x Temple of Plenty
2x Blossoming Sands
3x Mana Confluence
5x Forest
5x Plains
3x Collected Company
3x Dromoka's Command
2x Inspiring Call
3x Valorous Stance
2x Citadel Siege
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Inspiring Call
3x Ordeal of Heliod
2x Plummet
4x Reclamation Sage
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Omg ! Sorry but no. Don't advise people to play 4 Mana confluences, it's just a very very bad idea. It sounds like an advice before Conf' was released a couple of years ago. Temples are needed, period. Conf' can't be a 4-of here, period. That's why mono-colored aggro decks work better than other aggros, it's because their manabase is painless and this is key in the aggro mirrors (and actually other MUs too).
Each tapped land we add is painful, each mana conf' as well. Specifically here, GW aggro can't be as fast as low-curve aggro decks, so with a curve topping at 4-5, playing taplands is less painful than mana conf'. Adding a 5th tapped land like Blossoming Sands may be necessary to lower color deaths in white-intensive decks.
As opposed to these decks that have a 1 mana do nothing enchantment and the counter nonsense that is going to be shredded by a meta with so much removal in the targeted and mass varieties. Not to mention the green one drops into double white if there is any hope of pulling off the gimmick.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
I beg you guys to just try the deck before dismissing it as crap. Just because the pros aren't doing it (possibly yet) doesn't mean it's not good/can't be good maybe it won't be top 8 Pro Tour, maybe it could! Maybe it's only FNM level, maybe it's tournament worthy! But just saying "Yeah that deck blows" without real context is pretty lame. I honestly would like to hear constructive criticism, this card vs this card, scenarios and etc. THAT is what helps. That said, I'll try to work on a more traditional GW aggro variant to please the counters haters.
No bashing archetypes: that goes for everyone. Preferences are perfectly fine, just explain what you like/don't like. But we can keep all the different variants here. Porque no los dos?
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Surrak on the other hand fits wonderfully to the classic GW aggro gameplay : tricks, timing, no over-extension. In terms of offense, he does something better than Sentinels : rush into Stormbreath Dragon. This guy kills GW on his own. So the only MD way to beat it is to race it. The already popular Boon Satyr into Surrak play is very appealing and... it works. That 4/x power is very important in the archetype since we don't have many creatures that big at 3 cmc (we can think of Reverent Hunter).
Another wonderful guy is Deathmist Raptor. He has the same role as Heir of the Wilds, and it sounds natural to me to simply play 4 copies of each now I tried them together. With a SB oriented to morph resiliency, it helps the control MU very much, as we can already notice in GW devotion. A package of some Mastery of the Unseen and Whisperwood Elemental in the board should do it.
Now, there's a slot I'm unsure about, it's Warden of the First Tree. I might just fill the slots with bigger threats, but it just hasn't disappointed me so far. Gaining life is key in the red aggro MUs, which are quite difficult (that's why I can't see myself play less than 3 Surge of Righteousness in the SB right now). And I also play a couple of Den Protectors because I can't figure out a better card in that slot. It goes through Elspeth's tokens, races other aggro decks, and gets back Raptors in late game. It's a lot for such a small creature.
Here's the list :
4 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Boon Satyr
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Fleecemane Lion
2 Den Protector
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Valorous Stance
3 Dromoka's Command
Lands (24):
1 Mana Confluence
1 Blossoming Sands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
6 Plains
8 Forest
3 Whisperwood Elemental
3 Mastery of the Unseen
3 Surge of Righteousness
2 Epic Confrontation
2 Glare of Heresy
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Ajani Steadfast
The Confrontation could be Plummet, basically it's here to kill fliers and SBD that would race me.
Ajani is an extra life-gainer because red MUs tend to be the worst ones. Secure the wastes can answer tokens, very fast aggros but also be an extra Boon Satyr-esque threat against control.
If you have ideas or see MUs where GW struggles overall, please share.
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Im not at home right now but the deck I built had something like
4 x Fleeceman Lion
4 x Deathmist Raptor
3 x Surrak Caller of the Hunt
4 x Hidden Dragon Slayer (lifegain and the ability to kill other big threats helps against burn and swinging)
2 x Warden of the First Tree
4 x Dromokas Command
4 x Collected Company
2 x Spirit of Anafenza
4 x Valorous Stance
2 x Ajani mentor of heroes
3 x Banishing Light
I think the numbers can be tinkered with, and I think Den protector could be a good addition, Collected, and Dromokas Command should be in every g/w deck