High Sentinels of Arashin was the card from Khans I thought would see a lot more play than it does. I could've sworn that it was worth waaaaaay more than its 35 cent preorder cost and I'm really surprised it hasn't seen more play. It's popping up in GW Devotion variants in the side to deal with the mirror but personally? I want to see it shine mainboard. And if nobody else is going to do it, I will. I am DETERMINED to show the world that this is a dumb strong card. And though my past iterations have failed, I believe that with Dragons we actually may have a winning formula.
The premise of the deck is winning through counters, the army you build will be strong on their own but strongest in numbers. A lot of green and white cards are being glanced over simply because they don't exactly fit in with current archetypes, but there are some very very strong cards that we will soon see in 2 weeks.
I made a list of cards that may fit with the deck from average janky cards to serious beaters, going through all of the standard legal cards through gatherer.wizards then going through all of Dragons.
I then made notes on which cards were straight up not good from that list. I wrote a number as how many I would want max in the deck, whether or not it was a Sideboard or a card that I may want but was unsure of.
0-4 = Max I want in main
S = Sideboard
M = Maybeboard
1
4 Servant of the Scale
M Warden of the First Tree
M Hardened Scales
0 Vineweft
M Warrior's Lesson
2
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Den Protector
3 Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit
0 Ajani's Pridemate
S Fleecemane Lion
M Phalanx Leader
4 Dromoka's Command
0 Echoes of the Kin Tree
4 Gleam of Authority
S Feat of Resistance
S Mastery of the Unseen
S Ordeal of Heliod
M Solidarity of Heroes
S Suspension Field
M Titanic Growth
2 Valorous Stance
3
0 Salt Road Quartermasters
0 Abzan Falconer
4 Inspiring Call
2 Reap What is Sown
4
0 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 High Sentinels of Arashin
2 Daghatar, the Adamant
M Dragonscale General
0 Reverant Hunter
0 Tuskguard Captain
Then based off the list, I created this monstrosity. Attempting to figure out what synergizes well and what doesn't will all be a matter of gauntlet running and brutal evaluations. But this list has been fairly solid for a first iteration. I'll be putting up card evaluations as I test more to get a real sense of what works and what doesn't.
I think there may be something to this deck. Although I have come up with
Spells 18
2x Citadel Seige
2x Secure the wastes
2x Inspiring Call
2x Dromoka Command
2x Harden Scales
4x Feat of resistance
4x Valorous Stance
Creatures 16
2x Daghtar the Adamant
2x Phalanx leader
4x Warden of first tree
4x Avatar of the Resolute
2x Dragon Lord Dromoka
2x Dromoka The Eternal
I think Collected Company is simply a must in any green aggro deck. It simply does everything. For starters, at instant speed it makes it much harder for your opponents to simply remove your creatures. They have to hold removal till the end of their turn instant of playing threats and most of the time you'll at least get one body on the board even if they have removal. On top of that, it activates Anafenza twice for more counters and even serves as pseudo ramp. It is simply amazing in top-deck situations, serving essentially as a Dig Through Time that puts the creatures directly into play.
At first I was skeptical of Den Protector but after playing with it the ability to act as a bad Eternal Witness is value, especially combined with Collected Company. Turn 4, put Collected Company > Turn 5 Morph/Megammorph Den Protector is a powerful series of plays. Dromoka's Command and Inspiring Call are the two other primary targets. I also have liked the lifelink megamorph in white. At the very least it helps stabilize you and benefits from counters from Anafenza, Ajani, and Dromoka's Charm and its megamorph ability helps against a wide variety of decks. While neither is particularly efficient, they are "spell-like" creatures that benefits from +1/+1 counters and work well within the theme.
I like both Ajani Steadfast and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in this deck. They both serve the same basic purpose, though Mentor is better in grindy games and Steadfast in damage races. From the side I could see an argument for Elspeth and Nissa to help against control and midrange decks. As far as +1/+1 lords go, my favorite is Abzan Falconer for the teamwide evasion. On the other hand, Ainok Bond-Kin helps a little more if you run Bow of Nylea but I found that the deck space was very thin.
Thanks for your replies guys! I especially like your build in particular Manbear. Collected Company was going to be in my deck but I didn't want it to miss Sentinels, Daghatar, or Sunscorch. But I'll be taking out the Abzan leader and possibly Sunscorch, making Collected Co a better choice.
I tested a lot last night and found Gleam of Authority very win more. It also feels bad when you don't have much on the field to put it on. I think I may cut them out of the deck.
Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit was a monster all night, they can't let her live very long unless they want to stare down some scary monsters.
Den Protector was really solid as well. It's a great top deck and when he gets counters, he swings in often for a huge beating. Against some decks, they prefer to even kill Den Protector over Anafenza, leaving me lots of bolstering triggers.
Servant of the Scale is also a horrendous threat for my opponents to deal with. I do not understand how this is a common. If they kill it, the counters get to go onto another threat of my choice, effectively letting me kinda keep her, even if they kill her. It also works incredibly well with T1 Servant into T2 Avatar.
Speaking of Avatar of the Resolute, he's just a good card all around. 3/2 trample reach for 2 is strong strong strong on its own, the chance of just being huge later and not being a bad top deck was useful. He was also really good against Stormbreath. Since our other kill spells don't really work against it, Avatar being a 4/3 is really easy to hit and walls off a scary Stormbreath.
Daghatar the Adamant, was okay. Vigilance is a killer vs aggro decks, though they can always just frenzied goblin past him making him kinda eh. Especially at 4 mana. Salt Road Quartermasters fills his role just fine.
Dromoka's Command was good all night, sacrificing an enchantment is one of the most relevant abilities on the card. Among Outpost Siege, Courser of Kruphix, and Mastery of the Unseen, there are targets for saccing everywhere. The +1/+1 counter is also very good, considering our deck just gets stronger with them. With High Sentinels of Arashin out, it basically reads "Put 2 +1/+1 Counters"
Inspiring Call was also really really good. Being able to deploy all your threats without fear from a wrath, is really really strong. Especially in an aggro deck. Being able to make them all indestructible in response, AND draw (at least 2 99% of the time) cards is back breaking and scoop worthy.
Sunscorch Regent was actually pretty good. He gets counters really easily and can threaten the game if your opponents don't deal with it. But they have to deal with it before they can start advancing anything on the field otherwise he just gets 2 coul 4 skuul.
Plummet for the impending Dragons decks and Stormbreath
Inspiring Call to fight off Boardwipes
Dromoka's Command to hose enchantment reliant decks and Mastery of the Unseen
Fleecemane because Fleecemane
Elspeth vs Midrange
Citadel Siege to break through midrange and make them sad
Ordeal of Heliod because we have lots of counters and gaining 10 vs Aggro is likely GG.
Yay! I am glad to see I am not alone on the +1/+1 counter train!
My Build is a little different from yours since I am splashing black for a couple cards, but It's close enough that I think you may find it useful.
My deck is definitely not set, but I am going for a push with great creatures in both the early and late game.
Some of the things to bring to your attention:
Yes I am running Siege Rhino. I believe it is too good to not be playing a play set in our colors.
Abzan Charm is really, really good for our deck. We love all 3 of it's modes.
I think that the combination of Avatar of the Resolute, Genesis Hydra, and Reverent Hunter is too good to over look. They should definitely be played together.
My Sideboard is basically maybe cards right now.
I don't have collected company main board partially because I could not find room, and partially because its lack of synergy with 4 drops/Genesis Hydra.
So let me know what you think, and happy brewing everyone!
I would like to say this much. Warden of the First Tree is ideal for this deck. To make this type of deck you need to learn how to go over and under your opponent. Daghatar the Adamant is cool with his vigilance and sending more counters on cards. This deck shouldn't be played without a full playset of Feat of resistance and Valorous Stance. Simply because you need to protect those low end and high end cards like Dragonlord Dromoka. He stops your opponent very hard. Warden of the first tree is great for this style of deck because you can just get to his second mode and with cards like Citadel Siege and Hardened Scales he can become a serious threat. My build should be considered for further testing.....trust me
@Everyone, what do we do about Perilous Vault and Ugin? I think a lot of it is just not over extending, Which is easier to do in our deck vs other aggro since our creatures just scale easily. Reclamation Sage could do the job well. And Whisperwood seems like a HUGE pain for decks with Ugin. I think we may be safe from seeing as many Ugins as we did before now that Gw Devotion is a thing now. Other thoughts?
My newest list has been working out well. Gotta figure out the mana base still though. Fleecemane may come in from the side, works crazy well with Collected Company when they’re tapped out followed up with an activation. Putting counters on him with Sentinels makes him pummel through the magic 5 toughness.
@Yearlongsummer I like the idea of Abzan Ascendancy, seems like a fun way to deal with wraths on top of Inspiring Call. It also works well with Servant of the Scale. How has Daghatar been treating you? I found him to be underwhelming at 4 mana and like Salt Road Quartermasters in his place. Vigilance is nice but his 4 Toughness let him die to a lot of things. His ability helps with that but 4 mana is a lot to just move a counter, though 1 counter move is enough to wall out rhino, tasigur, and all the other 4 power guys.
@Kamirios Thanks! Glad you like it! Good luck at the GP!
@Some_Soggy_Tacos I was thinking about Genesis Hydra and Reverent Hunter as well! The hydra seemed like a fun combo but I could never really pull it off without Nykthos. Rev Hunter seems like a solid choice as well, I just wish he had a keyword like… Trample or something, not sure but I just can’t help this feeling like he’s missing that one thing…
Abzan Charm was something I skipped over. I like the idea! Cool card and certainly fits in an Abzan counters deck. My only gripe about Abzan is the mana, we have a lot of double cost cards in our deck. How has it been working out for you?
@Apex_Predator117 I do think your build is interesting. I think it’s lacking consistency with all the 2 drops though. I also think we need more creatures in our deck. Though it’s ideal to protect our guys (via Feat of Resistance and Valorous Stance), what happens with those cards when we have no creatures? They also don’t work very well with Secure the Wastes (I think this is a great card). It’s just that if you have protection for 1 creature, you don’t want to protect a token.
Phalanx Leader has always been a card I wanted to work. I like the idea behind him a lot. I just can never really figure out the right balance of creatures to spells with him. He wants an army but he wants spells to target him as well. I think he’s too cute for me but I really do like him.
It also seems you’re all aboard the Warden train, I was too! I tested him a lot, he’s good when he’s good. Like real good. But I just always felt like I had something….better to do with my mana. I’ll be testing him more and more though because I do think he’s good for our deck. Like really good. He’s another low cost creature that I’m not sad to top deck.
How have the Dragons been treating you? I like them in the side personally and have done really well without them to the point where I may even take them out. Citadel Siege is also something I’d like to ask about. How has it been working? Which mode has been most relevant/used most often?
Andddd last point on further testing, of course it should! Go out and test that thing! Let us know how it goes!
What does any player do against Ugin or Perilous Vault? Those are control players answer to Aggro or decks that clog the board. And the Answer for vault is Reclamation Sage. Believe it or not the Answer for Ugin is Securing the Wastes. Play that card after the Exile the whole board on their end phase they are wide open for an attack. I want this build to be more midrange with us getting more value from the simple stuff on the board. Getting +1/1 counter from Citadel Siege and Hardened Scales is a do nothing boost for any of our creatures putting them out of range of burn spells.
I have to agree about Phalanx Leader. I love the card to death but he seems clunky. He may be replaced with Servant of the Scale or Hidden Dragon Slayer. Besides Valorous Stance is a removal spell so it serves purpose.
I just like playing cheap value stuff with what I am trying to build. I do a transformative side board a lot of times. I am making an "aggro" board for this deck with more creatures and Collected Company. That's how I like to combat control deck.
I was tinkering around with a similar idea when FRF was released. I think it didn't pack enough punch then, but I think it does now. Here are some things I think we are missing:
1.) I think Dromoka, the Eternal is better than Dragonlord Dromoka. It is faster and gives us counters better. I don't like stretching this deck way up to a 6 casting cost, because this (at least how I was looking at it) was a fast deck.
2.) We are missing Heir of the Wilds from our lists. 2/2 deathtouch for 2 is at least worth consideration, especially with the ability to go up later.
3.) The only planeswalker we should really be considering is Ajani Steadfast, at least for a fast deck. Both of the top abilities are useful.
4.) High Sentinels of Arashin I would think would be a 4x. Surprised to see many not running it as much.
5.) Gleam of Authority is way too win-more. We want pretty much every non-creature spell to be useful if we only have 1 creature on the board.
6.) I like Citadel Siege. A lot. Polukranos should also be a consideration for a 4 drop. It has some late-game synergy and early on is just a great beater.
7.) We should be considering become immense as well I think.
I was tinkering around with a similar idea when FRF was released. I think it didn't pack enough punch then, but I think it does now. Here are some things I think we are missing:
1.) I think Dromoka, the Eternal is better than Dragonlord Dromoka. It is faster and gives us counters better. I don't like stretching this deck way up to a 6 casting cost, because this (at least how I was looking at it) was a fast deck.
2.) We are missing Heir of the Wilds from our lists. 2/2 deathtouch for 2 is at least worth consideration, especially with the ability to go up later.
3.) The only planeswalker we should really be considering is Ajani Steadfast, at least for a fast deck. Both of the top abilities are useful.
4.) High Sentinels of Arashin I would think would be a 4x. Surprised to see many not running it as much.
5.) Gleam of Authority is way too win-more. We want pretty much every non-creature spell to be useful if we only have 1 creature on the board.
6.) I like Citadel Siege. A lot. Polukranos should also be a consideration for a 4 drop. It has some late-game synergy and early on is just a great beater.
7.) We should be considering become immense as well I think.
Dromoka the Eternal is really good for the counters. But Dragonlord Dromoka can be on the field at the same time. Plus the life link is really relevant for the format going forward. Like I said before, Relying on the counters is very counter productive when it comes to trying to win any attrition game, which judging from the current standard is something you want to win at.
I have opted for a smaller creature line up that can do big things on my opponent turns when there isn't too much I can do during my turns. I have only 6 cards in the deck that requine me playing them after turn 4. All of which can do plenty. Although I may try out Ajani Steadfast.
Some really interesting discussion. I was thinking about a token matters deck after seeing Inspiring Call spoiled too. My initial thoughts were around combining Monastery Mentor with Phalanx Leader in a wide build Heroic shell.
Having read the ideas and realising I hadn't noticed Servant of the Scale at all, or the power of Bow of Nylea in this build I am pretty excited. Here are the three options that I'm most interested in:
First up: Attacking creatures get death touch. This allows us to really take advantage of the reach that having trample on Avatar of the Resolute and a pumped up Warden of the First Tree can provide. Trample + Deathtouch could even justify the inclusion of Ainok Bondkin that was discussed earlier.
+1/+1 Counters: Understandably useful.
+3 Life: The life gain may be relatively incidental, but I also noticed that this shell has the potential for a lot of synergistic life-gain without stretching itself too far. Warder of the First Tree gets lifelink at the same time it hits the desired level for trample; Hidden Dragonslayer comes with lifelink attached; Sunscorch Regent gains life almost immediately along with its counters; Ordeal of Heliod is a fantastic card against aggro that'll pop for life immediately on pumped creatures or start giving counters to underdeveloped ones; and, both Ajani planes walkers that have been discussed so far have life gain options.
All this leads me to thinking that the other counter generator that we should consider is: Ajani's Pridemage
Sideboard and mana-base are very preliminary. Its basically there to go bigger as, with all the life gain, I can't imagine aggro being too much of a problem. As you'll notice, I've moved away from Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. Being base green the WW pulls on the mana and I think (in theory for the time being) that most of these cards are pretty self-sufficient in generating their own tokens.
I like how I'm not the only one who wanted to get on the G/W tokens train. I'm looking at a bit more of a "white weenie" style of deck with a lot of protection and a bit of removal. I'm trying to keep the curve a bit on the low side and I also noticed that the mana costs for a lot of the creatures I was looking at would be really difficult with just basics and the G/W fetch so I added in a playset of Mana Confluence. I'm not sure where High Sentinels of Arashin would fit and hadn't really given it a fair shake but, now that I think about it, I think it could be a great bomb to drop and end the game if you can keep your board-state stable.
I love that +1/+1 counters are finally being looked at seriously. I will most likely be building a deck like this since I love my Bant Heroic deck but the sheer amount of counter fun to be had here is even better.
However, and this may sound crazy...has anyone thought of adding red and going real wide? Phalanx Leader, Akroan Crusader, Monastery Mentor and Secure the Wastes together could make a superb wall of buffed 1/1 creatures. Apply Avatar of the Resolute and Inspiring Call as needed. Could also use Rabblemasters to go more wide. Don't know if we want to wrestle with Naya mana base though. Other reason for red: Purphoros, God of the Forge. Using a spell on Akroan Crusader with Monastery Mentor out gives 4 damage right off the bat.
I did consider Red but the mana is just too hard for double casting costs IMO and the cards available in red just isn't worth the fault in consistency I think. But feel free to try! Solidarity of Heroes is also a cool card but I think we want to distribute the counters among our army while solidarity wants a focus of counters on 1 card. I like the concept behind a tokens route though and would love to see a list! I like the idea of heroic too! Cool to see so many different builds guys.
I'm considering Back to Nature as I don't have very many enchantments and it seems enchantments are a huge player right now. Often, it's a 2 for 1. Perfect for an aggro deck looking to punch through Coursers and other scary enchantments. Reclamation Sage is another good one since it beats out Perilous Vault and enchantments as well. Ugin is another monster all together, maybe we want to include Whisperwood because manifested/morph creatures are a huge pain for Ugin to deal with.
I like the sinergy with soldiers, as some are already doing, but I'm also of the mind set that keeping Siege Rhino really good.
Back to the soldiers theme, I also want to explore the legendary ones to work with hero's blade given that this deck already runs versions with Anafenza, the Foremost, and Brimaz, King of Oreskos, etc.
Lastly, I am splashing blue for this guy Daxos of Meletis, because with the sword it's just funny.
I'm hoping between Collected Company and Preeminent Captain I'll be able to keep constant pressure; so the cmc for creatures is at 3 max with the exception of the rhino.
Here is what I am thinking so far... Sideboard in the works, but will prbably be comprised of streamilned spot removal and protection for various situations.
That's a shame! Den Protector has been an absolute all star for me. I don't mind casting her for 2 if I have no other T2 play, or playing her + something else if that's whats better. But often times I play something else T3 and play Den Protector face down in the later turns of the game. At that point you've probably cast many spells, including Inspiring Call, Valorous Stance, and Dromoka's Command. When she's face down I have the option of picking any of those and casting them in response to a kill spell, a board wipe, a burn spell, a problematic enchantment, or even just to get another use from a Collected Company. Keep in mind you can return "target card" which means if you're mana screwed a little bit, you can find a fetch. It also means that you can find certain creatures EOT that would make your board even more threatening on their own, OR make your hand a little better. Re-casting an Avatar of the Resolute with an army for 2 mana feels really really good, because it IS really really good. This also means your scary creatures can just come back to haunt them later in the game if they remove it now and essentially turns your 4-of into 5-ofs on command and 3-ofs into 4-ofs and so on. Because of that, I never have really had a problem with spot removal or boardwipes. Try to give her another shot, maybe drop her down to 3 or 2 of but I strongly strongly would recommend against completely removing her.
On the Battle Priest, I haven't really had too much an issue with life to be honest with you. Against aggro it's a problem, but then in the side I have 4 Ordeal of Heliod, 10 life is often enough to get by but 20 life? That's game over for the aggro deck. I wouldn't want a 4 drop against aggro to be my savior, because by that time I could be dead.
I build my board presence up to the point where it's just bad news for them then from that point on I leave my mana up to play things in response or move counters or place counters EOT or mid combat, this puts a LOT of pressure on the opponent on how they want to swing, what they want to kill, and what cards they should play. Remember, our opponents are human and make mistakes. The more opportunities you give them to make mistakes, the more often they will. This is not to say you're playing bad players, it just forces them to really really think on choices that otherwise would be simple. This deck is different from other aggro decks where it's not always about dumping your hand, but rather utilizing the many options each of these cards give you to take the reigns. It's a tricky deck to play just right, and I'm not even sure if I have it down.
It seems lots of people are attempting to go Abzan! I like it but I'm wondering how the mana has been. With the double casting costs in several cards, how has it been performing? Have the CIPT lands been screwing with playing on the curve for you guys? Is rhino worth the 4 drop slot over High Sentinels of Arashin or other options in this particular deck and is it worth making Collected Company less reliable?
I'm still working on my deck, but I've found the biggest problematic cards against me/us:
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: His wipe can be bad news for us. Mass exile hurts us very bad, but he comes down pretty late in the game. Holding up Collected Company and casting it EOT to kill him on our own turn really hurts them.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: If it comes out T3 she can wall you out with your own creatures, which is not good for us.
Planeswalkers in general: How do we deal with them? Swinging at them? Not quite sure how we should approach this but those 2 above are among the hardest to deal with.
Stormbreath Dragon: More of an annoyance than a problem card, Avatar of the Resolute can actually wall him out with 1 counter, but he's annoying as hell to play against. Plummet is the option you can seek if your meta is heavy on the dragon.
My list is the same as my most recent post with this as a sideboard:
It seems lots of people are attempting to go Abzan! I like it but I'm wondering how the mana has been. With the double casting costs in several cards, how has it been performing? Have the CIPT lands been screwing with playing on the curve for you guys? Is rhino worth the 4 drop slot over High Sentinels of Arashin or other options in this particular deck and is it worth making Collected Company less reliable?
I'm still working on my deck, but I've found the biggest problematic cards against me/us:
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: His wipe can be bad news for us. Mass exile hurts us very bad, but he comes down pretty late in the game. Holding up Collected Company and casting it EOT to kill him on our own turn really hurts them.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: If it comes out T3 she can wall you out with your own creatures, which is not good for us.
Planeswalkers in general: How do we deal with them? Swinging at them? Not quite sure how we should approach this but those 2 above are among the hardest to deal with.
Re: Abzan and Planeswalkers, adding black could be beneficial in that it allows us to play Utter End, and or Hero's downfall??
Re: the Rhino, personally I think the immediate impact he makes is better than sentinels, but not expert, so just an opinion.
Well, I did some testing on my Naya Counter/Tokens deck, and sadly, without a proper Naya mana base (i.e. trilands), a deck with both Phalanx Leader and Avatar of the Resolute isn't gonna work if I have to include R in it as well. I only included red for Akroan Crusader and Purphoros, God of the Forge's funky interaction, but it didn't happen nearly often enough to warrant the inclusion. I'll be focusing on pure Selesnya colours and the glory of +1/+1 counters for now.
I'd like to point out it's very risky to play very bad cards just for the purpose of synergy, since most synergies I've seen in this thread are weak in the format, or rely on high variance, or can be easily disrupted.
I understand some players want to turn Avatar of the Resolute into a buffed Tarmogoyf, but playing cards that aren't even played in draft (like Servant of the Scale) is not the way to go for a start. Let's play cards that have already seen constructed play, not unplayables like Daghatar, Daxos, Quartermasters, etc...
The first thing to choose is whether we're based G or W. If we're based G, we can't play 4 Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit, and I would say we can't play more than 2 ? And perhaps the right number is 0. I mean, Hall of Triumph for Gw or Spear of Heliod as 1-ofs will be better in the curve and better against removals. Don't get me wrong, I like Ana, but she's been awful in opening hands with Mystic, a tapped land or a fetchland. I wouldn't even consider her in the same deck as Avatar.
Let's take a look at new cards. I don't think Deathmist Raptor has been quoted, while he has good resiliency in a build with morph / manifest spells (remember Vengevine ?). I've tested it along with 4 Den Protector, 3 Mastery of the Unseen and 2 Whisperwood Elemental, and it's been disgustingly great. Long story short, if your opponent doesn't have a mass removal spell, you have an almost unbreakable loop. Den Protector is a engine card, as long as you reach 5 mana. You can loop it with another Den Protector in your graveyard, and if there's some Raptor sleeping, it/they instantly come back.
Collected Company is certainly an attractive spell, but might be a 4-mana trap. Not for every aggro build. I would keep it as a 2-3x for a monoG stompy with 30+ creatures, not less. Inspiring Call only works in a full-counter deck, otherwise it's a very bad card. I think Mastery is better in that slot in most decks, since we get CA no matter what the board state is.
2.) We are missing Heir of the Wilds from our lists. 2/2 deathtouch for 2 is at least worth consideration, especially with the ability to go up later.
4 power creatures seem hard to get compared to the GRx aggro decks already existing. However, Deathtouch is good. Not sure it's better than other 2-drops.
3.) The only planeswalker we should really be considering is Ajani Steadfast, at least for a fast deck. Both of the top abilities are useful.
He's fine, but I think there are better 4-drops. I'd rather play Citadel Siege or other creatures.
4.) High Sentinels of Arashin I would think would be a 4x. Surprised to see many not running it as much.
Depends on the build (4 copies of a 4-drop in an aggro build is a lot). Really good if you run Ana. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is more aggressive and powerful right away, but I'm afraid he'll die too easily with Roast and Stoke the Flames.
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I'd like to point out it's very risky to play very bad cards just for the purpose of synergy, since most synergies I've seen in this thread are weak in the format, or rely on high variance, or can be easily disrupted.
I understand some players want to turn Avatar of the Resolute into a buffed Tarmogoyf, but playing cards that aren't even played in draft (like Servant of the Scale) is not the way to go for a start. Let's play cards that have already seen constructed play, not unplayables like Daghatar, Daxos, Quartermasters, etc...
Personally it's not that Avatar is a buffed Tarm, but a great addition to a counter deck. A 3/2 trample reach for 2 is way above curve, the fact that it CAN come in as a 4/3 T2 just makes it better. Often times in testing it comes in even larger than that. I also think that you have a very very ill misconception of Servant of the Scale, Of course it's not good in draft. There are cards not good in draft that can fill a role in a deck. I don't really understand the logic behind basing a card's value in one format correlates to another. Servant fills the 1 drop role really well in the deck, she adds a form of resiliency in her ability to place her strength in another creature. Making her a fantastic chump blocker, an annoying attacker, and a synergistic 1-drop. Daghatar and Quartermasters are also there for synergy purposes, I'd agree on Daghatar, he's probably not good enough but I really don't mind the Quartermasters, again they synergize well with the deck and can make blocking and attacking a real struggle for the opponent. Other 3 drops for consideration would be Brimaz, King of Oreskos and Deathmist Raptor. Brimaz is good yeah, he just is so I could see the change here. But Deathmist takes way too much investment to be as good in our deck. We're an aggro deck that wants to avoid high curves and the only way to effectively manifest and flip cards is through Whisperwood Elemental and Mastery of the Unseen. Don't get me wrong! They're great cards! Just not for our deck. Both of those considerably slow down our game plan (we're effectively a growing aggro deck) that wants to be able to use all its mana. If you're playing those 2 cards why not just go GW devotion? They're considerably better there.
The first thing to choose is whether we're based G or W. If we're based G, we can't play 4 Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit, and I would say we can't play more than 2 ? And perhaps the right number is 0. I mean, Hall of Triumph for Gw or Spear of Heliod as 1-ofs will be better in the curve and better against removals. Don't get me wrong, I like Ana, but she's been awful in opening hands with Mystic, a tapped land or a fetchland. I wouldn't even consider her in the same deck as Avatar.
This is an issue I have been having, but our game plan can often utilize one or the other (talking about Avatar of the Resolute) in a given situation and I can easily adjust accordingly. I think 2-of her is the right number. I also think again, if you're running Elvish Mystic in a GW deck, it shouldn't be this one. I think you're suited better in GW devotion.
Let's take a look at new cards. I don't think Deathmist Raptor has been quoted, while he has good resiliency in a build with morph / manifest spells (remember Vengevine ?). I've tested it along with 4 Den Protector, 3 Mastery of the Unseen and 2 Whisperwood Elemental, and it's been disgustingly great. Long story short, if your opponent doesn't have a mass removal spell, you have an almost unbreakable loop. Den Protector is a engine card, as long as you reach 5 mana. You can loop it with another Den Protector in your graveyard, and if there's some Raptor sleeping, it/they instantly come back.
Again I think you're just suited better playing GW devotion. It seems that's where your heart is. If you're not all in on manifesting/morphing Deathmist really is just basically a 3 mana Heir of the Wilds. Which is okay, but not worthy of inclusion in a counters deck like this.
Collected Company is certainly an attractive spell, but might be a 4-mana trap. Not for every aggro build. I would keep it as a 2-3x for a monoG stompy with 30+ creatures, not less.
I agree, Collected Company is not for every aggro build. But here it really does shine. It has combos with many of our cards. Dropping this after an Ugin to take him out or swing to end is nothing to laugh at. Neither is swinging with High Sentinels, and playing this before combat damage for a Servant of the Scale and Avatar of the Resolute or others for extra damage. It's really good in stompy G but it's also good here. I'll probably end up dropping my count to 3-of though.
Inspiring Call only works in a full-counter deck, otherwise it's a very bad card. I think Mastery is better in that slot in most decks, since we get CA no matter what the board state is.
Inspiring Call only working on a full-counter deck is the point of this whole deck thread! It's good here, no doubt about it. Mastery is just getting too much hype. It's easily hated out now since there's so much enchantment removal specifically for that card, we often don't get to that point in mana that we can activate it nearly as often as GW devotion and it just becomes a clunky card for us. The lifegain is also negligible more often than not. The only time it gets absurd is when GW fights against the mirror and that's worse than watching two control decks battle it out IMO.
Your list is cool! But I think it's shying away from our idea of counters a lot and moving towards a GW devotion strategy. Another issue I see is that you make the comment where we have to decide whether or not we want to be G or W based but yet your build faces the same issues of double white in Brimaz, Ana, and Spear, playing against Deathmist, Mystic and Warden. I don't think color requirements is as big a problem as it seems to be, given you don't always want to cast both creatures at the same time. Deathmist, Elemental and Mastery seem deadly together but I think would really shine in a more dedicated GW devotion list.
2.) We are missing Heir of the Wilds from our lists. 2/2 deathtouch for 2 is at least worth consideration, especially with the ability to go up later.
4 power creatures seem hard to get compared to the GRx aggro decks already existing. However, Deathtouch is good. Not sure it's better than other 2-drops.
3.) The only planeswalker we should really be considering is Ajani Steadfast, at least for a fast deck. Both of the top abilities are useful.
He's fine, but I think there are better 4-drops. I'd rather play Citadel Siege or other creatures.
4.) High Sentinels of Arashin I would think would be a 4x. Surprised to see many not running it as much.
Depends on the build (4 copies of a 4-drop in an aggro build is a lot). Really good if you run Ana. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is more aggressive and powerful right away, but I'm afraid he'll die too easily with Roast and Stoke the Flames.
There are cards not good in draft that can fill a role in a deck. I don't really understand the logic behind basing a card's value in one format correlates to another
Well it often correlates between limited and standard. It's rare to see bad limited cards shine in standard, put in other words. It's definitely not a card I would ever play over Elvish Mystic. I would play Mystic in a counters shell as in my morph shell. The reason behind my list is I tried with and without, and realized how important Mystic was to reach the 4th and 5th mana, so important to make the deck run (aka play 2 things a turn, like a spell and an ability).
If you're playing those 2 cards why not just go GW devotion? They're considerably better there.
Yes they are, and I tried them already. In a an aggro shell though, they provide resiliency and CA that's really good against midrange and control, where a counters shell flinches more easily. I understand the counters shell is attracting, but it's not necessarily what Selesnya aggro is, or the only way we should develop this thread.
Mastery is just getting too much hype. It's easily hated out now
... but you can play it anytime and it has to be answered. It's great against control and red decks. I've been very disappointed by Inspiring Call in those MUs because you never have enough living creatures to draw a decent amount of cards. And it's a bad topdeck when you have a weak-to-neutral board.
your build faces the same issues of double white in Brimaz, Ana, and Spear, playing against Deathmist, Mystic and Warden
Yep, and it doesn't satisfy me. I could see Ana be a 1-of like Soulfire Grand Master in WR aggro, since I only really care of her when I have manifest engines on the board. She's always clunky in the opening hand. Always. So you wait for turn 2 to play her, then turn 3 play your 1 drops...
Brimaz/Spear can be Boon Satyr, and I actually think I like the idea because of Roast, which doesn't care of these white cards.
Your list is cool! But I think it's shying away from our idea of counters a lot and moving towards a GW devotion strategy
There's no devotion really, but my take could actually be too much in between 2 strategies, indeed.
Glad to share opinions anyway.
Meriam's list is very interesting.
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Thank you for a worthless post Tiemuuu. If you want to take part in the conversation, the post the list and why you think it is better. Anything short of that is just trolling. Go troll somewhere else.
I am opposed to Temple of Plenty in this deck. This is an aggro deck, and you can't afford to have lands coming into play tapped. Also, because it's an aggro deck, our life total is not that important. I think we pull all Temples and replace with Mana Confluence. Otherwise, this is just another midrange deck.
The premise of the deck is winning through counters, the army you build will be strong on their own but strongest in numbers. A lot of green and white cards are being glanced over simply because they don't exactly fit in with current archetypes, but there are some very very strong cards that we will soon see in 2 weeks.
I made a list of cards that may fit with the deck from average janky cards to serious beaters, going through all of the standard legal cards through gatherer.wizards then going through all of Dragons.
Here's what I came up with:
I then made notes on which cards were straight up not good from that list. I wrote a number as how many I would want max in the deck, whether or not it was a Sideboard or a card that I may want but was unsure of.
S = Sideboard
M = Maybeboard
4 Servant of the Scale
M Warden of the First Tree
M Hardened Scales
0 Vineweft
M Warrior's Lesson
2
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Den Protector
3 Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit
0 Ajani's Pridemate
S Fleecemane Lion
M Phalanx Leader
4 Dromoka's Command
0 Echoes of the Kin Tree
4 Gleam of Authority
S Feat of Resistance
S Mastery of the Unseen
S Ordeal of Heliod
M Solidarity of Heroes
S Suspension Field
M Titanic Growth
2 Valorous Stance
3
0 Salt Road Quartermasters
0 Abzan Falconer
4 Inspiring Call
2 Reap What is Sown
4
0 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 High Sentinels of Arashin
2 Daghatar, the Adamant
M Dragonscale General
0 Reverant Hunter
0 Tuskguard Captain
M Sunbringer's Touch
2 Citadel Siege
5
2 Sunscorch Regent
0 Hooded Hydra
M Genesis Hydra
2 Whisperwood Elemental
5+
S Dragonlord Dromoka
Then based off the list, I created this monstrosity. Attempting to figure out what synergizes well and what doesn't will all be a matter of gauntlet running and brutal evaluations. But this list has been fairly solid for a first iteration. I'll be putting up card evaluations as I test more to get a real sense of what works and what doesn't.
Here's my list thus far.
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Den Protector
3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Salt Road Quartermasters
4 High Sentinels of Arashin
2 Daghatar the Adamant
2 Sunscorch Regent
3 Gleam of Authority
3 Inspiring Call
2 Valorous Stance
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Blossoming Sands
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Mana Confluence
5 Forest
4 Plains
4 Ordeal of Heliod
2 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Inspiring Call
2 Citadel Siege
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Let me know what you guys think! Thanks for looking and thanks for reading!
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Spells 18
2x Citadel Seige
2x Secure the wastes
2x Inspiring Call
2x Dromoka Command
2x Harden Scales
4x Feat of resistance
4x Valorous Stance
Creatures 16
2x Daghtar the Adamant
2x Phalanx leader
4x Warden of first tree
4x Avatar of the Resolute
2x Dragon Lord Dromoka
2x Dromoka The Eternal
Planeswalkers 2
2x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands 24
4x Windswept Heath
4x Blossoming Sands
4 Temple of Plenty
6x Forests
5x Plains
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Servant of the Scale
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Ainok Bond-Kin
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Daghatar the Adamant
3 High Sentinels of Arashin
Spells (14)
4 Dromoka's Command
3 Inspiring Call
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Abzan Ascendancy
3 Citadel Siege
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Lands (24)
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Forest
3 Plains
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Temple of Plenty
2 Mana Confluence
1 Caves of Koilos
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Windswept Heath
At first I was skeptical of Den Protector but after playing with it the ability to act as a bad Eternal Witness is value, especially combined with Collected Company. Turn 4, put Collected Company > Turn 5 Morph/Megammorph Den Protector is a powerful series of plays. Dromoka's Command and Inspiring Call are the two other primary targets. I also have liked the lifelink megamorph in white. At the very least it helps stabilize you and benefits from counters from Anafenza, Ajani, and Dromoka's Charm and its megamorph ability helps against a wide variety of decks. While neither is particularly efficient, they are "spell-like" creatures that benefits from +1/+1 counters and work well within the theme.
I like both Ajani Steadfast and Ajani, Mentor of Heroes in this deck. They both serve the same basic purpose, though Mentor is better in grindy games and Steadfast in damage races. From the side I could see an argument for Elspeth and Nissa to help against control and midrange decks. As far as +1/+1 lords go, my favorite is Abzan Falconer for the teamwide evasion. On the other hand, Ainok Bond-Kin helps a little more if you run Bow of Nylea but I found that the deck space was very thin.
My current list looks like this:
4 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Salt Road Quartermasters
4 Servant of the Scale
3 Den Protector
3 Hidden Dragonslayer
1 Abzan Falconer
Instant
4 Collected Company
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Inspiring Call
1 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Lands
4 Blossoming Sands
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Windswept Heath
2 Mana Confluence
5 Forest
5 Plains
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Valorous Stance
2 Display of Dominance
2 Last Breath
2 Surge of Righteousness
1 Ajani Steadfast
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
I tested a lot last night and found Gleam of Authority very win more. It also feels bad when you don't have much on the field to put it on. I think I may cut them out of the deck.
Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit was a monster all night, they can't let her live very long unless they want to stare down some scary monsters.
Den Protector was really solid as well. It's a great top deck and when he gets counters, he swings in often for a huge beating. Against some decks, they prefer to even kill Den Protector over Anafenza, leaving me lots of bolstering triggers.
Servant of the Scale is also a horrendous threat for my opponents to deal with. I do not understand how this is a common. If they kill it, the counters get to go onto another threat of my choice, effectively letting me kinda keep her, even if they kill her. It also works incredibly well with T1 Servant into T2 Avatar.
Speaking of Avatar of the Resolute, he's just a good card all around. 3/2 trample reach for 2 is strong strong strong on its own, the chance of just being huge later and not being a bad top deck was useful. He was also really good against Stormbreath. Since our other kill spells don't really work against it, Avatar being a 4/3 is really easy to hit and walls off a scary Stormbreath.
Daghatar the Adamant, was okay. Vigilance is a killer vs aggro decks, though they can always just frenzied goblin past him making him kinda eh. Especially at 4 mana. Salt Road Quartermasters fills his role just fine.
Dromoka's Command was good all night, sacrificing an enchantment is one of the most relevant abilities on the card. Among Outpost Siege, Courser of Kruphix, and Mastery of the Unseen, there are targets for saccing everywhere. The +1/+1 counter is also very good, considering our deck just gets stronger with them. With High Sentinels of Arashin out, it basically reads "Put 2 +1/+1 Counters"
Inspiring Call was also really really good. Being able to deploy all your threats without fear from a wrath, is really really strong. Especially in an aggro deck. Being able to make them all indestructible in response, AND draw (at least 2 99% of the time) cards is back breaking and scoop worthy.
Sunscorch Regent was actually pretty good. He gets counters really easily and can threaten the game if your opponents don't deal with it. But they have to deal with it before they can start advancing anything on the field otherwise he just gets 2 coul 4 skuul.
New Iteration:
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Den Protector
3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Salt Road Quartermasters
4 High Sentinels of Arashin
2 Sunscorch Regent
4 Collected Company
3 Inspiring Call
2 Valorous Stance
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Blossoming Sands
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Mana Confluence
5 Forest
4 Plains
Sideboard: Still under construction
Considering some combination of
Plummet for the impending Dragons decks and Stormbreath
Inspiring Call to fight off Boardwipes
Dromoka's Command to hose enchantment reliant decks and Mastery of the Unseen
Fleecemane because Fleecemane
Elspeth vs Midrange
Citadel Siege to break through midrange and make them sad
Ordeal of Heliod because we have lots of counters and gaining 10 vs Aggro is likely GG.
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My Build is a little different from yours since I am splashing black for a couple cards, but It's close enough that I think you may find it useful.
My deck is definitely not set, but I am going for a push with great creatures in both the early and late game.
3 Fleecemane Lion
4 Genesis Hydra
2 High Sentinels of Arashin
4 Reverent Hunter
4 Siege Rhino
3 Servant of the Scale
2 Warden of the First Tree
3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Abzan Charm
3 Inspiring Call
Land:
3 Caves of Koilos
5 Forest
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Plains
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Temple of Plenty
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Windswept Heath
4 Collected Company
2 Dromoka's Command
1 Palace Siege
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Thoughtsieze
Some of the things to bring to your attention:
Yes I am running Siege Rhino. I believe it is too good to not be playing a play set in our colors.
Abzan Charm is really, really good for our deck. We love all 3 of it's modes.
I think that the combination of Avatar of the Resolute, Genesis Hydra, and Reverent Hunter is too good to over look. They should definitely be played together.
My Sideboard is basically maybe cards right now.
I don't have collected company main board partially because I could not find room, and partially because its lack of synergy with 4 drops/Genesis Hydra.
So let me know what you think, and happy brewing everyone!
RGW Naya Company
RWB Mardu Control
My newest list has been working out well. Gotta figure out the mana base still though. Fleecemane may come in from the side, works crazy well with Collected Company when they’re tapped out followed up with an activation. Putting counters on him with Sentinels makes him pummel through the magic 5 toughness.
@Yearlongsummer I like the idea of Abzan Ascendancy, seems like a fun way to deal with wraths on top of Inspiring Call. It also works well with Servant of the Scale. How has Daghatar been treating you? I found him to be underwhelming at 4 mana and like Salt Road Quartermasters in his place. Vigilance is nice but his 4 Toughness let him die to a lot of things. His ability helps with that but 4 mana is a lot to just move a counter, though 1 counter move is enough to wall out rhino, tasigur, and all the other 4 power guys.
@Kamirios Thanks! Glad you like it! Good luck at the GP!
@Some_Soggy_Tacos I was thinking about Genesis Hydra and Reverent Hunter as well! The hydra seemed like a fun combo but I could never really pull it off without Nykthos. Rev Hunter seems like a solid choice as well, I just wish he had a keyword like… Trample or something, not sure but I just can’t help this feeling like he’s missing that one thing…
Abzan Charm was something I skipped over. I like the idea! Cool card and certainly fits in an Abzan counters deck. My only gripe about Abzan is the mana, we have a lot of double cost cards in our deck. How has it been working out for you?
@Apex_Predator117 I do think your build is interesting. I think it’s lacking consistency with all the 2 drops though. I also think we need more creatures in our deck. Though it’s ideal to protect our guys (via Feat of Resistance and Valorous Stance), what happens with those cards when we have no creatures? They also don’t work very well with Secure the Wastes (I think this is a great card). It’s just that if you have protection for 1 creature, you don’t want to protect a token.
Phalanx Leader has always been a card I wanted to work. I like the idea behind him a lot. I just can never really figure out the right balance of creatures to spells with him. He wants an army but he wants spells to target him as well. I think he’s too cute for me but I really do like him.
It also seems you’re all aboard the Warden train, I was too! I tested him a lot, he’s good when he’s good. Like real good. But I just always felt like I had something….better to do with my mana. I’ll be testing him more and more though because I do think he’s good for our deck. Like really good. He’s another low cost creature that I’m not sad to top deck.
How have the Dragons been treating you? I like them in the side personally and have done really well without them to the point where I may even take them out. Citadel Siege is also something I’d like to ask about. How has it been working? Which mode has been most relevant/used most often?
Andddd last point on further testing, of course it should! Go out and test that thing! Let us know how it goes!
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I have to agree about Phalanx Leader. I love the card to death but he seems clunky. He may be replaced with Servant of the Scale or Hidden Dragon Slayer. Besides Valorous Stance is a removal spell so it serves purpose.
I just like playing cheap value stuff with what I am trying to build. I do a transformative side board a lot of times. I am making an "aggro" board for this deck with more creatures and Collected Company. That's how I like to combat control deck.
1.) I think Dromoka, the Eternal is better than Dragonlord Dromoka. It is faster and gives us counters better. I don't like stretching this deck way up to a 6 casting cost, because this (at least how I was looking at it) was a fast deck.
2.) We are missing Heir of the Wilds from our lists. 2/2 deathtouch for 2 is at least worth consideration, especially with the ability to go up later.
3.) The only planeswalker we should really be considering is Ajani Steadfast, at least for a fast deck. Both of the top abilities are useful.
4.) High Sentinels of Arashin I would think would be a 4x. Surprised to see many not running it as much.
5.) Gleam of Authority is way too win-more. We want pretty much every non-creature spell to be useful if we only have 1 creature on the board.
6.) I like Citadel Siege. A lot. Polukranos should also be a consideration for a 4 drop. It has some late-game synergy and early on is just a great beater.
7.) We should be considering become immense as well I think.
Dromoka the Eternal is really good for the counters. But Dragonlord Dromoka can be on the field at the same time. Plus the life link is really relevant for the format going forward. Like I said before, Relying on the counters is very counter productive when it comes to trying to win any attrition game, which judging from the current standard is something you want to win at.
I have opted for a smaller creature line up that can do big things on my opponent turns when there isn't too much I can do during my turns. I have only 6 cards in the deck that requine me playing them after turn 4. All of which can do plenty. Although I may try out Ajani Steadfast.
Some really interesting discussion. I was thinking about a token matters deck after seeing Inspiring Call spoiled too. My initial thoughts were around combining Monastery Mentor with Phalanx Leader in a wide build Heroic shell.
Having read the ideas and realising I hadn't noticed Servant of the Scale at all, or the power of Bow of Nylea in this build I am pretty excited. Here are the three options that I'm most interested in:
First up: Attacking creatures get death touch. This allows us to really take advantage of the reach that having trample on Avatar of the Resolute and a pumped up Warden of the First Tree can provide. Trample + Deathtouch could even justify the inclusion of Ainok Bondkin that was discussed earlier.
+1/+1 Counters: Understandably useful.
+3 Life: The life gain may be relatively incidental, but I also noticed that this shell has the potential for a lot of synergistic life-gain without stretching itself too far. Warder of the First Tree gets lifelink at the same time it hits the desired level for trample; Hidden Dragonslayer comes with lifelink attached; Sunscorch Regent gains life almost immediately along with its counters; Ordeal of Heliod is a fantastic card against aggro that'll pop for life immediately on pumped creatures or start giving counters to underdeveloped ones; and, both Ajani planes walkers that have been discussed so far have life gain options.
All this leads me to thinking that the other counter generator that we should consider is: Ajani's Pridemage
My list at the moment looks something like this:
4x Servant of the Scale
3x Warden of the First Tree
4x Ajani's Pridemate
4x Avatar of the Resolute
4x Hidden Dragonslayer
3x High Sentinels of Arashin
2x Sunscorch Regent
Instants:
4x Dromoka's Command
3x Inspiring Call
1x Ajani Steadfast
Enchantments:
2x Bow of Nylea
3x Ordeal of Heliod
Lands:
4x Blossoming Sands
4x Temple of Plenty
4x Windswept Heath
5x Forest
4x Plains
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Mana Confluence
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
3x Back to Nature
3x Den Protector
3x Display of Dominance
2x Dragonlord Dromoka
3x Fleecemane Lion
Sideboard and mana-base are very preliminary. Its basically there to go bigger as, with all the life gain, I can't imagine aggro being too much of a problem. As you'll notice, I've moved away from Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit. Being base green the WW pulls on the mana and I think (in theory for the time being) that most of these cards are pretty self-sufficient in generating their own tokens.
My Builds
W: Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
WB: Karlov of the Ghost Council
WR: Anax & Cymede
WUG: Phelddagrif
Others' Builds that I've Enjoyed
WUB: Chromium
4 Servant of the Scale
3 Favored Hoplite
3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Akroan Skyguard
2 Avatar of the Resolute
3 Phalanx Leader
Noncreatures:
4 Hardened Scales
3 Dromoka's Command
3 Gods Willing
3 Collected Company
3 Valorous Stance
2 Inspiring Call
4 Windswept Heath
4 Mana Confluence
8 Plains
8 Forest
3 Glare of Heresy
3 Surge of Righteousness
3 Ainok Survivalist
3 Display of Dominance
3 End Hostilities
Nuts play would be something like: Mana Confluence + Hardened Scales turn 1, Plains + Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit turn 2, Servant of the Scale and possibly Favored Hoplite with a Gods Willing in-hand turn 3. Both Servant and Hoplite come out as 3/3s and Gods Willing can make the Hoplite into a 5/5 on your opponent's turn.
Just FYI, I am still fiddling with the sideboard and the mana base right now, so the counts will probably be a little wonky. Thoughts?
However, and this may sound crazy...has anyone thought of adding red and going real wide? Phalanx Leader, Akroan Crusader, Monastery Mentor and Secure the Wastes together could make a superb wall of buffed 1/1 creatures. Apply Avatar of the Resolute and Inspiring Call as needed. Could also use Rabblemasters to go more wide. Don't know if we want to wrestle with Naya mana base though. Other reason for red: Purphoros, God of the Forge. Using a spell on Akroan Crusader with Monastery Mentor out gives 4 damage right off the bat.
Also don't forget our bomb card: Solidarity of Heroes!!!
I'm considering Back to Nature as I don't have very many enchantments and it seems enchantments are a huge player right now. Often, it's a 2 for 1. Perfect for an aggro deck looking to punch through Coursers and other scary enchantments. Reclamation Sage is another good one since it beats out Perilous Vault and enchantments as well. Ugin is another monster all together, maybe we want to include Whisperwood because manifested/morph creatures are a huge pain for Ugin to deal with.
I'm going to try out -1 High Sentinels of Arashin -1 Salt Road Quartermasters +2 Daghatar the Adamant. Rhinos get completely stomped by the addition of 1 counter. Not completely sure about it but I want to test it out.
Here's the list again:
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Den Protector
3 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Salt Road Quartermasters
3 High Sentinels of Arashin
2 Daghatar the Adamant
2 Sunscorch Regent
4 Collected Company
3 Inspiring Call
2 Valorous Stance
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
2 Blossoming Sands
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Mana Confluence
5 Forest
4 Plains
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I like the sinergy with soldiers, as some are already doing, but I'm also of the mind set that keeping Siege Rhino really good.
Back to the soldiers theme, I also want to explore the legendary ones to work with hero's blade given that this deck already runs versions with Anafenza, the Foremost, and Brimaz, King of Oreskos, etc.
Lastly, I am splashing blue for this guy Daxos of Meletis, because with the sword it's just funny.
I'm hoping between Collected Company and Preeminent Captain I'll be able to keep constant pressure; so the cmc for creatures is at 3 max with the exception of the rhino.
Here is what I am thinking so far... Sideboard in the works, but will prbably be comprised of streamilned spot removal and protection for various situations.
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Blossoming Sands
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Caves of Koilos
3 Opulent Palace
1 Tranquil Cove
3 Forest
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
3 Fleecemane Lion
4 Preeminent Captain
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Daxos of Meletis
2 Abzan Falconer
4 Siege Rhino
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Spells (12)
3 Gods Willing
4 Collected Company
3 Dromoka's Command
2 Utter End
Artifacts (3)
3 Hero's Blade
Cheers!
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On the Battle Priest, I haven't really had too much an issue with life to be honest with you. Against aggro it's a problem, but then in the side I have 4 Ordeal of Heliod, 10 life is often enough to get by but 20 life? That's game over for the aggro deck. I wouldn't want a 4 drop against aggro to be my savior, because by that time I could be dead.
I build my board presence up to the point where it's just bad news for them then from that point on I leave my mana up to play things in response or move counters or place counters EOT or mid combat, this puts a LOT of pressure on the opponent on how they want to swing, what they want to kill, and what cards they should play. Remember, our opponents are human and make mistakes. The more opportunities you give them to make mistakes, the more often they will. This is not to say you're playing bad players, it just forces them to really really think on choices that otherwise would be simple. This deck is different from other aggro decks where it's not always about dumping your hand, but rather utilizing the many options each of these cards give you to take the reigns. It's a tricky deck to play just right, and I'm not even sure if I have it down.
It seems lots of people are attempting to go Abzan! I like it but I'm wondering how the mana has been. With the double casting costs in several cards, how has it been performing? Have the CIPT lands been screwing with playing on the curve for you guys? Is rhino worth the 4 drop slot over High Sentinels of Arashin or other options in this particular deck and is it worth making Collected Company less reliable?
I'm still working on my deck, but I've found the biggest problematic cards against me/us:
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: His wipe can be bad news for us. Mass exile hurts us very bad, but he comes down pretty late in the game. Holding up Collected Company and casting it EOT to kill him on our own turn really hurts them.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver: If it comes out T3 she can wall you out with your own creatures, which is not good for us.
Planeswalkers in general: How do we deal with them? Swinging at them? Not quite sure how we should approach this but those 2 above are among the hardest to deal with.
Perilous Vault: Again, mass exile hurts. BUT because it's an artifact we can just run Reclamation Sage in the side. He's easy to find and hit with 4 copies of him, Den Protector for another use of an old one, and Collected Company
Stormbreath Dragon: More of an annoyance than a problem card, Avatar of the Resolute can actually wall him out with 1 counter, but he's annoying as hell to play against. Plummet is the option you can seek if your meta is heavy on the dragon.
My list is the same as my most recent post with this as a sideboard:
2 Fleecemane Lion
3 Reclamation Sage
3 Odeal of Heliod
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Citadel Siege
Cards to think about:
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Re: Abzan and Planeswalkers, adding black could be beneficial in that it allows us to play Utter End, and or Hero's downfall??
Re: the Rhino, personally I think the immediate impact he makes is better than sentinels, but not expert, so just an opinion.
Cheers!
I understand some players want to turn Avatar of the Resolute into a buffed Tarmogoyf, but playing cards that aren't even played in draft (like Servant of the Scale) is not the way to go for a start. Let's play cards that have already seen constructed play, not unplayables like Daghatar, Daxos, Quartermasters, etc...
The first thing to choose is whether we're based G or W. If we're based G, we can't play 4 Anafenza, Kin-tree Spirit, and I would say we can't play more than 2 ? And perhaps the right number is 0. I mean, Hall of Triumph for Gw or Spear of Heliod as 1-ofs will be better in the curve and better against removals. Don't get me wrong, I like Ana, but she's been awful in opening hands with Mystic, a tapped land or a fetchland. I wouldn't even consider her in the same deck as Avatar.
Let's take a look at new cards. I don't think Deathmist Raptor has been quoted, while he has good resiliency in a build with morph / manifest spells (remember Vengevine ?). I've tested it along with 4 Den Protector, 3 Mastery of the Unseen and 2 Whisperwood Elemental, and it's been disgustingly great. Long story short, if your opponent doesn't have a mass removal spell, you have an almost unbreakable loop. Den Protector is a engine card, as long as you reach 5 mana. You can loop it with another Den Protector in your graveyard, and if there's some Raptor sleeping, it/they instantly come back.
Collected Company is certainly an attractive spell, but might be a 4-mana trap. Not for every aggro build. I would keep it as a 2-3x for a monoG stompy with 30+ creatures, not less. Inspiring Call only works in a full-counter deck, otherwise it's a very bad card. I think Mastery is better in that slot in most decks, since we get CA no matter what the board state is.
2 Whisperwood Elemental
2 High Sentinels of Arashin
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Den Protector
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Spear of Heliod
3 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Valorous Stance
3 Dromoka's Command
Lands:
2 Blossoming Sands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
6 Plains
7 Forest
4 power creatures seem hard to get compared to the GRx aggro decks already existing. However, Deathtouch is good. Not sure it's better than other 2-drops.
He's fine, but I think there are better 4-drops. I'd rather play Citadel Siege or other creatures.
Depends on the build (4 copies of a 4-drop in an aggro build is a lot). Really good if you run Ana. Surrak, the Hunt Caller is more aggressive and powerful right away, but I'm afraid he'll die too easily with Roast and Stoke the Flames.
On
Personally it's not that Avatar is a buffed Tarm, but a great addition to a counter deck. A 3/2 trample reach for 2 is way above curve, the fact that it CAN come in as a 4/3 T2 just makes it better. Often times in testing it comes in even larger than that. I also think that you have a very very ill misconception of Servant of the Scale, Of course it's not good in draft. There are cards not good in draft that can fill a role in a deck. I don't really understand the logic behind basing a card's value in one format correlates to another. Servant fills the 1 drop role really well in the deck, she adds a form of resiliency in her ability to place her strength in another creature. Making her a fantastic chump blocker, an annoying attacker, and a synergistic 1-drop. Daghatar and Quartermasters are also there for synergy purposes, I'd agree on Daghatar, he's probably not good enough but I really don't mind the Quartermasters, again they synergize well with the deck and can make blocking and attacking a real struggle for the opponent. Other 3 drops for consideration would be Brimaz, King of Oreskos and Deathmist Raptor. Brimaz is good yeah, he just is so I could see the change here. But Deathmist takes way too much investment to be as good in our deck. We're an aggro deck that wants to avoid high curves and the only way to effectively manifest and flip cards is through Whisperwood Elemental and Mastery of the Unseen. Don't get me wrong! They're great cards! Just not for our deck. Both of those considerably slow down our game plan (we're effectively a growing aggro deck) that wants to be able to use all its mana. If you're playing those 2 cards why not just go GW devotion? They're considerably better there.
This is an issue I have been having, but our game plan can often utilize one or the other (talking about Avatar of the Resolute) in a given situation and I can easily adjust accordingly. I think 2-of her is the right number. I also think again, if you're running Elvish Mystic in a GW deck, it shouldn't be this one. I think you're suited better in GW devotion.
Again I think you're just suited better playing GW devotion. It seems that's where your heart is. If you're not all in on manifesting/morphing Deathmist really is just basically a 3 mana Heir of the Wilds. Which is okay, but not worthy of inclusion in a counters deck like this.
I agree, Collected Company is not for every aggro build. But here it really does shine. It has combos with many of our cards. Dropping this after an Ugin to take him out or swing to end is nothing to laugh at. Neither is swinging with High Sentinels, and playing this before combat damage for a Servant of the Scale and Avatar of the Resolute or others for extra damage. It's really good in stompy G but it's also good here. I'll probably end up dropping my count to 3-of though.
Inspiring Call only working on a full-counter deck is the point of this whole deck thread! It's good here, no doubt about it. Mastery is just getting too much hype. It's easily hated out now since there's so much enchantment removal specifically for that card, we often don't get to that point in mana that we can activate it nearly as often as GW devotion and it just becomes a clunky card for us. The lifegain is also negligible more often than not. The only time it gets absurd is when GW fights against the mirror and that's worse than watching two control decks battle it out IMO.
2 Whisperwood Elemental
2 High Sentinels of Arashin
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Deathmist Raptor
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Den Protector
2 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Spear of Heliod
3 Mastery of the Unseen
2 Valorous Stance
3 Dromoka's Command
Lands:
2 Blossoming Sands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
6 Plains
7 Forest
Your list is cool! But I think it's shying away from our idea of counters a lot and moving towards a GW devotion strategy. Another issue I see is that you make the comment where we have to decide whether or not we want to be G or W based but yet your build faces the same issues of double white in Brimaz, Ana, and Spear, playing against Deathmist, Mystic and Warden. I don't think color requirements is as big a problem as it seems to be, given you don't always want to cast both creatures at the same time. Deathmist, Elemental and Mastery seem deadly together but I think would really shine in a more dedicated GW devotion list.
I agree on the points you make here!
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2 Den Protector
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Heir of the Wilds
4 Warden of the First Tree
2 Wingmate Roc
4 Boon Satyr
4 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
10 Forest
4 Plains
1 Blossoming Sands
2 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Plenty
4 Windswept Heath
4 Dromoka's Command
3 Valorous Stance
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Well it often correlates between limited and standard. It's rare to see bad limited cards shine in standard, put in other words. It's definitely not a card I would ever play over Elvish Mystic. I would play Mystic in a counters shell as in my morph shell. The reason behind my list is I tried with and without, and realized how important Mystic was to reach the 4th and 5th mana, so important to make the deck run (aka play 2 things a turn, like a spell and an ability).
Yes they are, and I tried them already. In a an aggro shell though, they provide resiliency and CA that's really good against midrange and control, where a counters shell flinches more easily. I understand the counters shell is attracting, but it's not necessarily what Selesnya aggro is, or the only way we should develop this thread.
... but you can play it anytime and it has to be answered. It's great against control and red decks. I've been very disappointed by Inspiring Call in those MUs because you never have enough living creatures to draw a decent amount of cards. And it's a bad topdeck when you have a weak-to-neutral board.
Yep, and it doesn't satisfy me. I could see Ana be a 1-of like Soulfire Grand Master in WR aggro, since I only really care of her when I have manifest engines on the board. She's always clunky in the opening hand. Always. So you wait for turn 2 to play her, then turn 3 play your 1 drops...
Brimaz/Spear can be Boon Satyr, and I actually think I like the idea because of Roast, which doesn't care of these white cards.
There's no devotion really, but my take could actually be too much in between 2 strategies, indeed.
Glad to share opinions anyway.
Meriam's list is very interesting.
I am opposed to Temple of Plenty in this deck. This is an aggro deck, and you can't afford to have lands coming into play tapped. Also, because it's an aggro deck, our life total is not that important. I think we pull all Temples and replace with Mana Confluence. Otherwise, this is just another midrange deck.