OK so I bit the bullet and bought a playset of Ugin. The plan was to attempt many different shells till I found one he works best in. I tried a bunch of different builds to varying degrees of success till I got to something pretty sweet.
I've been having a really surprising amount of success with the following list:
I'm also playing a Sultai get to Ugin list that's a bit different to yours, but I'm also jamming counterspells. I haven't been able to test as much as I'd like, and I'm curious whether you think Dissipates/Negates work in a deck that wants to tap out for Courser, or Frontier Siege or Kiora etc?
I'm also playing a Sultai get to Ugin list that's a bit different to yours, but I'm also jamming counterspells. I haven't been able to test as much as I'd like, and I'm curious whether you think Dissipates/Negates work in a deck that wants to tap out for Courser, or Frontier Siege or Kiora etc?
No, counterspells are not the main gameplan, at least in my build. For the most part you want them resolving their spells then sweeping away the board. I put 4 counterspells (2/2 negate/dissolve) in for the very very late game to protect the walkers or lock the game out, but I board the dissolves out in 1/2 of matchup. It's a reactive tap-out style deck because you have to invest an insane amount of resources in getting the ramp going so leaving up mana is kinda bad.
How does this deck play against fast decks? I don't really see much happening early game here. Do you just get pounded in for a few turns then hope to recover with walkers?
Yeah courser is the main early early defense game 1 then post board I've got drowns and bile blights and more negates and whatnot.
Honestly the only fast deck right now is boss sligh and it's not played much. The other aggro decks (heroic, abzan, warriors, tokens etc) are actually quite slow decks that also don't really get moving till turn 3.
But your general point is well taken - the control spell slots are very much in flux, and meta dependant. Should I have more/less sweepers or spot removal main? Should I be playing more/less countermagic? Should I have bile blights main? these are all questions I'll answer over the course of testing.
I've also considered going Temur so I can have things like lighning strike and anger of the gods in the place of thoughtsieze and drown in sorrow. Spot removal for bigger threats is the issue there though. And thoughtsieze is honestly one of the best cards in this deck.
I'm not full in on the ramp, but I ran this last night and went 4-0. Been playing Abzan, GB Constellation and Jeskai Tokens all year, and none felt quite as powerful as this did tonight! I beat RW Aggro twice, Abzan Aggro and UW Control. Not quite the full on "turbo-Ugin" path you're on, but I was directed here from Sultai Control because I'm not quite control either.
A tap-out style control-ish/delve brew that keeps your opponent busy with Courser + Tasigur + Torrent Elemental, before launching into Hornet Queens and Ugins. I originally had 4 Dissipate instead of the 2 Secrets and the Stroke + Negate, but realised that I'm rarely wanting to leave three mana open, let alone two blue. So about five minutes before we started, I chucked into those 4 as replacements to see how they felt. The Secrets were surprisingly really good! I'm definitely keeping them in there for next week. However, I'm unsure whether Stroke + Negate are worth it, or should be put solely in the SB.
I'm in love with 2x Frontier Siege, by the way. I've been playing with all sort of Frontier Siege brews lately, such as the SCG crew's Constellation deck, and wasn't a fan of maxing out on the things. They can get clunky. Sure, sometimes playing them turn 4 and then dropping Hornet Queen next turn is nice, but usually turn four I want to be spending my mana on removal. If I don't, I'm usually already ahead. With two Sieges, they allow for the possibility of powerful plays, but are actually just useful as cards that I draw sometimes. With Tasigur, all of these expensive spells and Torrent Elemental - I usually have something to sink my mana into, and Siege lets me string multiple spells together a turn.
I'm not full in on the ramp, but I ran this last night and went 4-0. Been playing Abzan, GB Constellation and Jeskai Tokens all year, and none felt quite as powerful as this did tonight! I beat RW Aggro twice, Abzan Aggro and UW Control. Not quite the full on "turbo-Ugin" path you're on, but I was directed here from Sultai Control because I'm not quite control either.
A tap-out style control-ish/delve brew that keeps your opponent busy with Courser + Tasigur + Torrent Elemental, before launching into Hornet Queens and Ugins. I originally had 4 Dissipate instead of the 2 Secrets and the Stroke + Negate, but realised that I'm rarely wanting to leave three mana open, let alone two blue. So about five minutes before we started, I chucked into those 4 as replacements to see how they felt. The Secrets were surprisingly really good! I'm definitely keeping them in there for next week. However, I'm unsure whether Stroke + Negate are worth it, or should be put solely in the SB.
I'm in love with 2x Frontier Siege, by the way. I've been playing with all sort of Frontier Siege brews lately, such as the SCG crew's Constellation deck, and wasn't a fan of maxing out on the things. They can get clunky. Sure, sometimes playing them turn 4 and then dropping Hornet Queen next turn is nice, but usually turn four I want to be spending my mana on removal. If I don't, I'm usually already ahead. With two Sieges, they allow for the possibility of powerful plays, but are actually just useful as cards that I draw sometimes. With Tasigur, all of these expensive spells and Torrent Elemental - I usually have something to sink my mana into, and Siege lets me string multiple spells together a turn.
have you tried using crux of fate in this build? Or is it just to slow for turbo?
I think it should probably have less tap lands (twelve is a lot), but at the same time, they weren't really an issue. Maybe go: -1 Temple of Malady, -2 Temple of Mystery, + 1 Llanowar Wastes + 2 Yavimaya Coast.
In regards to Crux of Fate, I was running two in my sideboard. I think its a bit slow in the MB, when you already have a lot of spot removal. I ended up siding them in against RW Aggro, just so I had a reset button, but Drown in Sorrow + Bile Blight generally did the job anyway.
awesome can you post your side board too? What other problems have you run into with this deck? As well, what should you look out for when playing this deck or ones similar?
It was pretty experiemental, because I wasn't sure what to expect. Silumgur and Doomwake were decent to bring in against the more token based RW decks. Pearl-Lake came in against control, but might be better off as Nissa, Worldwaker. When I took on control in my last round, Torrent Elemental was the best performer, as its so resiliant, but they do need to answer it because three damage a turn pays off. Eventually I was able to resolve Ugin and finish things off.
I do think the SB needs some sort of life-gain to deal with RW/mono-red though, as you feel extremely vulnerable if you hit 8 or so life, and don't have Coursers out. I know Fabiano runs Feed the Clan, but I was actually thinking about running Whip of Erebos as a two-of in the board. It has immense synergy with Torrent Elemental, and is good with Hornet Queen. Even just whipping back a Tasigur and swinging for 4 life-gain can be useful. But it might be too slow for that purpose. It's something I plan on testing at my next event.
Abzan can be a slightly more difficult matchup, because Siege Rhino, Rakshasha, Fleecemane and Anafenza can't be hit with Sultai Charm. For this reason, I may also consider some Silence the Believers in my SB next time out. Crux of Fate is good, though.
Against UW Heroic, you have to push through their Gods Willing and just kill their creatures at every opportunity. We have 8 removal spells MB, and four of them can even hit enchantments if things get desperate. Drop an Ugin and its GG.
You'll quickly find with this deck that the best card is Satyr Wayfinder. It lets you hit your land drops, fuels Delve and perhaps most importantly, chump blocks to let you get to your bigger spells.
awesome!! thanks for all the info dude; please keep posting your tweaks and results I'm gonna play it this week and see how it goes this deck looks mad exciting
Will do mate, good luck! Yeah, it felt insanely powerful while playing it - and was a lot of fun too. Have been jumping around between all sorts of Abzan/Sultai whip and Jeskai Tokens lists recently, but think I've finally found where I want to be.
I really like the eidolon package with this deck. With courser and the sieges already in the deck, my hand is usually full. I'm not much of a fan of DTT in this build, since the sieges encourage us to use them on our turn. Atm testing out the acolytes. Those slots were jace and another downfall. Not sure wihch i like. I've pulled off large VWs or played my things a turn or two earlier because they'll normally at least be producing 2.
I think so, too, Rhandall. I've been brewing on something with all 8 sieges and eidolon of blossoms. The only problem is that in that scenario Ugin is a nombo and unlikely to make the cut. I do definitely think BG siege constellation could be a thing for sure though. Just probably not with Ugin because you don't want to invenst in all these permanents then have to exile them to get rid of an opposing monster.
I've also considered going Temur so I can have things like lighning strike and anger of the gods in the place of thoughtsieze and drown in sorrow. Spot removal for bigger threats is the issue there though. And thoughtsieze is honestly one of the best cards in this deck.
I'd say BUG is your better options. Red's removal is incredibly soft to any sort of large threats, and typically the decks that want them can race to some degree. I've found that red is a bit better than black at deal with aggro, simply because the color commitment is generally not as severe(And Magma Jet's Scry 2 has proven incredible against aggro as spot removal). The issue I've had with most black builds is that while the tools for fighting aggro are significantly stronger, the pesky BB does make it awkward at times. Still, I think overall you'd prefer to be in black. Thoughtseize, as you said, is very important, you have a true sweeper with Crux, and you have better hard removal with Downfall. Equally, your pay-off with Garruk is huge.
I'm a little curious why you are going the 4-1 route with Ugin/Garruk as well. Ugin is generally better, and you likely always want them in any given game, but at 4 you can be left with a lot of dead Ugin's in hand in a good many games. Equally, there aren't many games where ramping into Garruk is at all a bad thing either. His destroy ability is remarkably useful for keeping your head above water, both of his +1 abilities are incredibly useful. If you're going for five high cost walkers, I would imagine a 3-2 Ugin/Garruk split might prove beneficial. Or not; Ugin is an amazing card, and will likely be hit hard as often as your opponent can.
A card to look into is Sultai Charm as well. Not only is it fairly versatile removal in general (Although there are a ton of multi-colored cards; still some good targets for it in creatures, and a handful of enchantments). The Draw 2, discard 1 is good as it lets you dig for your Pay-off Planeswalkers, or ditch overly redundant ones. It also helps fuel delve a bit, and you can ditch less relevant cards for whatever you draw (Such as late game Thoughtseizes). I was running a Sultai Superfriends list at the start of the format, and just generally found the card always relevant. Not sure where you would make room, or if it's good now, but it's something that seems like it would fit.
Ran coyw's deck with some minor tweaks, mostly sideboard and a few land changes, at what is basically a competitive Tuesday "FNM" with people who have been playing forever and have done well in GPs and stuff. I played Fabiano's Sultai list last Tuesday and went 1-3-1, but tonight went 4-1-0 and placed fourth out of 20 some people.
My first round was against a UB control player who wrecked me last week too. No matter how many removal and counters I baited he just kept having answers and I went 0-2 without ever even putting up a fight.
Losing the first round put me up against another 0-1 player with a casual janky Chromanticore/Soulflayer deck. After sideboarding he couldn't really keep up.
Third round was against a green devotion deck that tanked me last week. I put up way more fight this week with actually having a board presence and Torrent Elemental flew me over his 4 chump board for lethal in game 3.
Fourth round was a Temur aggro deck. Again he couldn't keep up with my removal AND board presence after boarding out. He said I was the only control deck he's ever had trouble with and that he rolls UB control really easily.
Last round was against RG aggro and it was super close in the third game. I got saved by a topdeck Drown in Sorrow, which he still followed with two consecutive Stormbreaths. Literally the only reason I won the game was because I played a Feed the Clan (one of the sideboard changes I made) off of Tasigur because I sailed over his guys with Torrent Elemental for lethal while I only had 7 life left. If I hadn't had that Feed I would have lost two or three turns prior. Guy said he'd never see anyone play that card and wasn't sure how to react to it.
So individual card ratings based on tonight:
-Tasigur is amazing. He ducks most removal and his ability gave me back kill spells that saved me in more than one game. I'm torn on whether to have 3 or 4, though. I always want to see one, but I had multiple games where I had an extra one or two clogging my hand and no way to get rid of them because the one I had down was doing a good enough job controlling the board.
-Courser is so good. The lifegain, being able to plan out my plays a turn ahead, dump lands off the top, and chump block most small aggro monsters and trade with Rabblemaster is just impossible to beat. I think this is THE card most responsible for my different performance between this deck and Fabiano's mostly creatureless build.
-Torrent Elemental won me multiple games, including one where I brought it back from exile. Being able to get my Tasigur and even Wayfinders and Coursers past chump blockers for lethal was huge and if it had just been 3 flying damage I could have easily let them come back. It's extra good because nobody seems to want to waste removal on it and it sneaks up on them for game.
-Sultai Charm was never something I was sad to see. If it wasn't a life-saving kill spell, it drew me two cards. I never had to use its artifact/enchant destroy mode but I imagine it's nice to have against whip and ascendancy.
-Frontier Siege did a lot of work for me in longer games, but I sided it out against basically anything aggressive. Still, an extra four mana a turn can majorly swing the game and leaves you mana open for kill spells for surprise haste or flashes. I played it as Dragons one game where I was set for mana but didn't get to live the Hornet Queen fight dream.
-Strongly considering replacing the Bile Blights with Drowns. I can't even think of a target I'd want to kill with Bile Blight that doesn't die to Drown. The only way Bile Blight makes more sense is if you need instant speed or have your own 2 toughness creatures you don't want to die, but I think Drown is just straight up better in this deck.
-I really want to playtest Digs instead of Cruises. I get that it requires an extra mana open but it costs less overall and it can be cast at the end of their turn to potentially find an answer to whatever they played that turn. I just was never too impressed with the Cruises and they rarely got me anything I actually needed. It either felt like a dead card when I wanted removal or it was just more advantage when I was already winning. I feel like being able to see seven cards and pick the two most useful is overall better if you're trying to play any kind of control.
-Seriously Feed the Clan. For 3 mana you can get a 4/5 and gain ten life, which can completely reverse the way the game is going. I only side it in against fast aggro decks, but it's such a huge advantage in those games.
-I went with the Negate/Stroke split because I wasn't sure what to replace them with either. Stroke did a little work for me but Negate basically did nothing ever. I feel like I most often wanted to stop creatures from hitting the board and Stroke hits stuff like Stormbreath and Rhino and most Planeswalkers while Negate only hits walkers and instants/sorceries which rarely felt like they needed to be prevented.
All in all I had a ton of fun playing the deck and it feels closer to what UB control usually feels like rather than this draw-go, play nothing but answers boring nonsense. It's nice to play a deck that is both proactive and reactive and it feels like the way control is meant to play.
Great to hear mate! Really enjoyed your notes, because they almost identically mirror how I feel after a few more days testing the thing.
- Tasigur is great, isn't he? But yes, I suppose in the end dropping to 3 of him may just be the responsible thing to do. I can't help but feel greedy with four the guy, but at the same time, I do want him every game and don't mind him in multiples against decks like Abzan that certainly have removal for the first. Maybe the fourth Tasigur gets sided out against other decks, which is something I've definitely done before.
- Agree, agree and agree with Courser, Elemental and Sultai Charm. Courser does SO much work in this deck. It gains valuable life (which can really add up in the long game, particularly against aggressive decks), blocks Rabblemasters, Fleecemane Lions etc to help you survive the first 5 turns, and finally, improves your draw steps. Glad you agree re: Charm. It feels like one of the most powerful instants in standard right now, because it is NEVER not useful, and more often than not extremely useful.
- Feed the Clans is a card that I've been SO hesitant to play, but the more I play this deck, the more I feel its needed. With your reaffirmation, I'm sleeving them up right after I post this.
- The Cruise vs Dig thing is another thing I've been meaning to test. There are times where being one mana has won me games, but, of course, other times you draw two or three lands and lose. One of the reasons I felt Cruise was more powerful in this deck at first is because I felt there were very few bad draws in here, and would rather pure card advantage. If I get my hands on some Cruises before this Friday, I'll probably try a 2-2 split and see what goes.
- I've almost come to an opposite conclusion re: Stroke vs Negate, in that in many cases I have plenty of removal for whatever creatures they're playing, making Negate feel like a more useful option. Mainly, because I fear the UB Control matchup. Negate can help you beat their counters, or beat their removal etc. In that matchup, which I feel is probably one of the worst, it does WAY better work than Stroke. I might try removing counterspells from the MB altogether and then pack 2 Stroke and 2 Negate in the board?
- Frontier Siege is sitting nicely as a two-of, in my opinion. I rarely, if ever, want to draw a second copy of the thing - but sometimes it just slams down turn four into Hornet Queen + Ugin to steal you a win, or sometimes it provides you four extra mana a turn to sink into Tasigur, Cruises etc. which helps you stay on top of your opponent. I've been very content with two of them in here.
- Re: Bile Blight and Drown, I've been heavily playtesting the Abzan Aggro matchup for the last few days and definitely feel content with a 2-2 split. Blight deals with Fleecemain, while also letting you do tricky stuff like Blight their Siege Rhino and then block with Courser. Drown can become redundant if they have mana-up for their Deathdealer or level up their Warden, and then becomes a pretty bad top deck. Also, for what its worth, Blight can get around Monastery Mentor/Seeker of the Way with one prowess trigger, which might become a thing we see quite a bit. I guess it depends on your meta.
In further regards to the Abzan matchup, I've noted that Crux of Fate feels absolutely and positively vital. In other aggro matchups, Drowns and Blights can handle - but I very rarely won a game in testing against Abzan where Crux wasn't deployed. In good(ish) news, post SBing, I would win about two thirds of the time.
Glad you enjoyed the deck man. I've been really getting into it too. It's a great balance between having answers, and a great long-game, while still being proactive, applying pressure and being synergistic.
Rhandall, I don't think I changed the maindeck at all other than mana, although I kept it at 24 lands. I cut the taplands down to 4 Opulent, and I think 4 Temples split between 1 Malady, 2 Mystery and 1 Deceit, and put in 4 Polluted Deltas with no Windbrisk, two Yavimaya and two Llanowar, and then added an Urborg. I was basically never hurting for mana or kept off any of my colors so I feel like it was solid. I know Urborg can sometimes help the opponent but if they're getting held off black you can just hold it in your hand, and it's really nice to be able to tap fetchlands and painlands for black without paying life.
As far as the sideboard, I cut the Pharika and Doomwake because I couldn't see them doing much other cards weren't already doing, Reclamation Sage because I was content with the four charms for that, and a Negate and Disdainful Stroke because I felt like I wanted more proactive stuff, but I am pretty sure I'll put at least the Stroke back in. I added 2 Feed the Clans because I've won enough games off of it to feel strongly about it, 2 Rakshasa Deathdealers because I can't seem to figure out a viable strategy for UB control and if you can get it out before they have counter mana up and they don't immediately have a kill spell it can basically be impossible to remove. It's also not a bad late game pull. One game last week I played it after he tapped out for Ugin, and he had to Bile Blight it three times his next turn to kill it, and if he had one fewer in hand I probably would have won because he used up his hand and I could easily protect it against 2 kill spells a turn. Last I added a single Silence the Believers that I never ended up siding in but I still think could be potentially useful but I'm considering replacing it with a Reality Shift. Generic 2/2s cause no trouble for this deck and it could get rid of a recurring Phoenix or a Stormbreath or other potentially tricky threat to deal with.
And coyw, yeah I think 4 Tasigur is probably the best since you do want to see him every single game. And I usually sided one out against decks that only ran burn removal and that seemed to work okay. I totally didn't even think about Bile Blights against Abzan and you're right. Basically all we can do against a monstrous Fleeceman is block with Tasigur or Torrent. I think the 2-2 split is probably solid, but I think I'm going to find a spot for a third Drown just because I feel the deck is weakest against ramp and aggro and that blanks mana dorks and cards like Rabblemaster and Seeker in one card whereas Bile Blight doesn't. Bile Blight is superior against Abzan for sure, though. Plus the scry can toss a land off the top and get us a kill spell if they follow up the wipe with something big like a Polukranos or Stormbreath. And yeah, I think a 2-2 split between Cruise and Dig might be the right choice until we see how it shakes out better. I can definitely imagine situations where Cruise is superior, but last night I would have almost always preferred Dig and I never had a situation where the 1 mana difference mattered.
You're right on Negate vs UB, but I think that's just a bad match up for us no matter how we board. It's always going to come down to sticking more stuff than they have answers for, and I don't know if two Negates is enough to swing that in our favor rather than just giving us one or two more chances to outrun them, which could be the difference but could easily do nothing. I honestly can't think of a way to make that match better for us, even if we dedicated half of our sideboard to it. PLA is such a frustrating card. It's so slow, but nearly impossible to get rid of. I honestly think our best weapon against UB might be 2-3 Thoughtseizes in the sideboard. What do you think about trying that? Have you tested it in this deck at all?
Tasigur is super bad and overrated. He's fine in modern, but seriously underperforms in standard. Takes too long to get out and does very little.
You have to invest so much mana and so much time for minimal returns.
With Satyr Wayfinder and a fetch he's super easy to get out turn 3 and he blocks basically anything else that gets played around that same point. I can't overstate how good he is.
No he's actually really bad in standard. I've seen him come out against me at least 2 dozen times and I've only ever seen him activate his ability once. Gurmag Angler is better, and still unplayable.
You realize the main reason he's good is that he's easily a 4/5 for 1 black and his ability is just an added bonus, yeah? Because I really can't articulate how wrong you are. There are some cards in this deck you can maybe argue aren't good, but Tasigur is objectively very, very good and he's currently seeing play in basically any decks that run black including UB control and Abzan.
You can't articulate how wrong I am because I'm not wrong, so there's no way to articulate it.
This card is garbage. He's a big hype right now because he's legitimately good in modern, but in standard he's just an overcosted beater. Sometimes you might get lucky and get the 4/5 on turn 3 or 4 or whatever, but that same thing can be achieved way better in abzan with caryatid + rhino and rhino actually threatens the opponent.
Tasigur is a very cheap 4/5. That is his main appeal. His ability is too costly to be all that good, BUT it is a great ability with Frontier Siege in play. Even though its a good card on its own, Frontier Siege runs into two problems typically. One, nothing to spend the mana on during one of the main phases; or two, running out of cards so having nothing to spend the mana on at all. Tasigur helps solve both of those problems. The two cards synergize so well together it's like they were made with each other in mind.
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I've been having a really surprising amount of success with the following list:
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
Guys
4 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sagu Mauler
Stuff
4 Frontier Siege
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dig Through Time
2 Crux of Fate
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Dissolve
2 Negate
1 Drown in Sorrow
4 Opulent Palace
4 Polluted Delta
3 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Deceit
3 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Crux of Fate
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Unravel the Aether
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Bile Blight
2 Negate
1 Dissolve
1 Nissa, Worldwaker
1 Pearl Lake Ancient
It's really fun to play and between Kiora, Courser and Frontier Siege it's pretty nuts how easy it is to ramp out the fat walkers.
I'm still fine-tuning, but I'm really happy with how it's coming along.
No, counterspells are not the main gameplan, at least in my build. For the most part you want them resolving their spells then sweeping away the board. I put 4 counterspells (2/2 negate/dissolve) in for the very very late game to protect the walkers or lock the game out, but I board the dissolves out in 1/2 of matchup. It's a reactive tap-out style deck because you have to invest an insane amount of resources in getting the ramp going so leaving up mana is kinda bad.
Honestly the only fast deck right now is boss sligh and it's not played much. The other aggro decks (heroic, abzan, warriors, tokens etc) are actually quite slow decks that also don't really get moving till turn 3.
But your general point is well taken - the control spell slots are very much in flux, and meta dependant. Should I have more/less sweepers or spot removal main? Should I be playing more/less countermagic? Should I have bile blights main? these are all questions I'll answer over the course of testing.
I've also considered going Temur so I can have things like lighning strike and anger of the gods in the place of thoughtsieze and drown in sorrow. Spot removal for bigger threats is the issue there though. And thoughtsieze is honestly one of the best cards in this deck.
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Torrent Elemental
2 Hornet Queen
1 Murderous Cut
4 Sultai Charm
4 Treasure Cruise
2 Rakshasha's Secret
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Negate
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
A tap-out style control-ish/delve brew that keeps your opponent busy with Courser + Tasigur + Torrent Elemental, before launching into Hornet Queens and Ugins. I originally had 4 Dissipate instead of the 2 Secrets and the Stroke + Negate, but realised that I'm rarely wanting to leave three mana open, let alone two blue. So about five minutes before we started, I chucked into those 4 as replacements to see how they felt. The Secrets were surprisingly really good! I'm definitely keeping them in there for next week. However, I'm unsure whether Stroke + Negate are worth it, or should be put solely in the SB.
I'm in love with 2x Frontier Siege, by the way. I've been playing with all sort of Frontier Siege brews lately, such as the SCG crew's Constellation deck, and wasn't a fan of maxing out on the things. They can get clunky. Sure, sometimes playing them turn 4 and then dropping Hornet Queen next turn is nice, but usually turn four I want to be spending my mana on removal. If I don't, I'm usually already ahead. With two Sieges, they allow for the possibility of powerful plays, but are actually just useful as cards that I draw sometimes. With Tasigur, all of these expensive spells and Torrent Elemental - I usually have something to sink my mana into, and Siege lets me string multiple spells together a turn.
have you tried using crux of fate in this build? Or is it just to slow for turbo?
Hey mate, this is what I ran with. It's not finely tuned, but I had no problems with it.
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswepth Heath
4 Opulent Palace
4 Temple of Malady
3 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Malice
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Yavimaya Coast
I think it should probably have less tap lands (twelve is a lot), but at the same time, they weren't really an issue. Maybe go: -1 Temple of Malady, -2 Temple of Mystery, + 1 Llanowar Wastes + 2 Yavimaya Coast.
In regards to Crux of Fate, I was running two in my sideboard. I think its a bit slow in the MB, when you already have a lot of spot removal. I ended up siding them in against RW Aggro, just so I had a reset button, but Drown in Sorrow + Bile Blight generally did the job anyway.
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Crux of Fate
2 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Pearl-Lake Ancient
1 Silumgur, the Drifting Death
1 Pharika, God of Affliction
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Reclamation Sage
It was pretty experiemental, because I wasn't sure what to expect. Silumgur and Doomwake were decent to bring in against the more token based RW decks. Pearl-Lake came in against control, but might be better off as Nissa, Worldwaker. When I took on control in my last round, Torrent Elemental was the best performer, as its so resiliant, but they do need to answer it because three damage a turn pays off. Eventually I was able to resolve Ugin and finish things off.
I do think the SB needs some sort of life-gain to deal with RW/mono-red though, as you feel extremely vulnerable if you hit 8 or so life, and don't have Coursers out. I know Fabiano runs Feed the Clan, but I was actually thinking about running Whip of Erebos as a two-of in the board. It has immense synergy with Torrent Elemental, and is good with Hornet Queen. Even just whipping back a Tasigur and swinging for 4 life-gain can be useful. But it might be too slow for that purpose. It's something I plan on testing at my next event.
Abzan can be a slightly more difficult matchup, because Siege Rhino, Rakshasha, Fleecemane and Anafenza can't be hit with Sultai Charm. For this reason, I may also consider some Silence the Believers in my SB next time out. Crux of Fate is good, though.
Against UW Heroic, you have to push through their Gods Willing and just kill their creatures at every opportunity. We have 8 removal spells MB, and four of them can even hit enchantments if things get desperate. Drop an Ugin and its GG.
You'll quickly find with this deck that the best card is Satyr Wayfinder. It lets you hit your land drops, fuels Delve and perhaps most importantly, chump blocks to let you get to your bigger spells.
3x Courser of Kruphix
3x Sylvan Caryatid
2x Karametra's Acolyte
2x Hornet Queen
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Frontier Siege
2x Font of Fortunes
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Dig Through Time
3x Crux of Fate
2x Villainous Wealth
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Garruk, Apex Predator
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Yavimaya Coast
2x Llanowar Wastes
4x Opulent Palace
4x Temple of Deceit
3x Polluted Delta
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Urborg
4x Temple of Malady
I really like the eidolon package with this deck. With courser and the sieges already in the deck, my hand is usually full. I'm not much of a fan of DTT in this build, since the sieges encourage us to use them on our turn. Atm testing out the acolytes. Those slots were jace and another downfall. Not sure wihch i like. I've pulled off large VWs or played my things a turn or two earlier because they'll normally at least be producing 2.
I'd say BUG is your better options. Red's removal is incredibly soft to any sort of large threats, and typically the decks that want them can race to some degree. I've found that red is a bit better than black at deal with aggro, simply because the color commitment is generally not as severe(And Magma Jet's Scry 2 has proven incredible against aggro as spot removal). The issue I've had with most black builds is that while the tools for fighting aggro are significantly stronger, the pesky BB does make it awkward at times. Still, I think overall you'd prefer to be in black. Thoughtseize, as you said, is very important, you have a true sweeper with Crux, and you have better hard removal with Downfall. Equally, your pay-off with Garruk is huge.
I'm a little curious why you are going the 4-1 route with Ugin/Garruk as well. Ugin is generally better, and you likely always want them in any given game, but at 4 you can be left with a lot of dead Ugin's in hand in a good many games. Equally, there aren't many games where ramping into Garruk is at all a bad thing either. His destroy ability is remarkably useful for keeping your head above water, both of his +1 abilities are incredibly useful. If you're going for five high cost walkers, I would imagine a 3-2 Ugin/Garruk split might prove beneficial. Or not; Ugin is an amazing card, and will likely be hit hard as often as your opponent can.
A card to look into is Sultai Charm as well. Not only is it fairly versatile removal in general (Although there are a ton of multi-colored cards; still some good targets for it in creatures, and a handful of enchantments). The Draw 2, discard 1 is good as it lets you dig for your Pay-off Planeswalkers, or ditch overly redundant ones. It also helps fuel delve a bit, and you can ditch less relevant cards for whatever you draw (Such as late game Thoughtseizes). I was running a Sultai Superfriends list at the start of the format, and just generally found the card always relevant. Not sure where you would make room, or if it's good now, but it's something that seems like it would fit.
My first round was against a UB control player who wrecked me last week too. No matter how many removal and counters I baited he just kept having answers and I went 0-2 without ever even putting up a fight.
Losing the first round put me up against another 0-1 player with a casual janky Chromanticore/Soulflayer deck. After sideboarding he couldn't really keep up.
Third round was against a green devotion deck that tanked me last week. I put up way more fight this week with actually having a board presence and Torrent Elemental flew me over his 4 chump board for lethal in game 3.
Fourth round was a Temur aggro deck. Again he couldn't keep up with my removal AND board presence after boarding out. He said I was the only control deck he's ever had trouble with and that he rolls UB control really easily.
Last round was against RG aggro and it was super close in the third game. I got saved by a topdeck Drown in Sorrow, which he still followed with two consecutive Stormbreaths. Literally the only reason I won the game was because I played a Feed the Clan (one of the sideboard changes I made) off of Tasigur because I sailed over his guys with Torrent Elemental for lethal while I only had 7 life left. If I hadn't had that Feed I would have lost two or three turns prior. Guy said he'd never see anyone play that card and wasn't sure how to react to it.
So individual card ratings based on tonight:
-Tasigur is amazing. He ducks most removal and his ability gave me back kill spells that saved me in more than one game. I'm torn on whether to have 3 or 4, though. I always want to see one, but I had multiple games where I had an extra one or two clogging my hand and no way to get rid of them because the one I had down was doing a good enough job controlling the board.
-Courser is so good. The lifegain, being able to plan out my plays a turn ahead, dump lands off the top, and chump block most small aggro monsters and trade with Rabblemaster is just impossible to beat. I think this is THE card most responsible for my different performance between this deck and Fabiano's mostly creatureless build.
-Torrent Elemental won me multiple games, including one where I brought it back from exile. Being able to get my Tasigur and even Wayfinders and Coursers past chump blockers for lethal was huge and if it had just been 3 flying damage I could have easily let them come back. It's extra good because nobody seems to want to waste removal on it and it sneaks up on them for game.
-Sultai Charm was never something I was sad to see. If it wasn't a life-saving kill spell, it drew me two cards. I never had to use its artifact/enchant destroy mode but I imagine it's nice to have against whip and ascendancy.
-Frontier Siege did a lot of work for me in longer games, but I sided it out against basically anything aggressive. Still, an extra four mana a turn can majorly swing the game and leaves you mana open for kill spells for surprise haste or flashes. I played it as Dragons one game where I was set for mana but didn't get to live the Hornet Queen fight dream.
-Strongly considering replacing the Bile Blights with Drowns. I can't even think of a target I'd want to kill with Bile Blight that doesn't die to Drown. The only way Bile Blight makes more sense is if you need instant speed or have your own 2 toughness creatures you don't want to die, but I think Drown is just straight up better in this deck.
-I really want to playtest Digs instead of Cruises. I get that it requires an extra mana open but it costs less overall and it can be cast at the end of their turn to potentially find an answer to whatever they played that turn. I just was never too impressed with the Cruises and they rarely got me anything I actually needed. It either felt like a dead card when I wanted removal or it was just more advantage when I was already winning. I feel like being able to see seven cards and pick the two most useful is overall better if you're trying to play any kind of control.
-Seriously Feed the Clan. For 3 mana you can get a 4/5 and gain ten life, which can completely reverse the way the game is going. I only side it in against fast aggro decks, but it's such a huge advantage in those games.
-I went with the Negate/Stroke split because I wasn't sure what to replace them with either. Stroke did a little work for me but Negate basically did nothing ever. I feel like I most often wanted to stop creatures from hitting the board and Stroke hits stuff like Stormbreath and Rhino and most Planeswalkers while Negate only hits walkers and instants/sorceries which rarely felt like they needed to be prevented.
All in all I had a ton of fun playing the deck and it feels closer to what UB control usually feels like rather than this draw-go, play nothing but answers boring nonsense. It's nice to play a deck that is both proactive and reactive and it feels like the way control is meant to play.
- Tasigur is great, isn't he? But yes, I suppose in the end dropping to 3 of him may just be the responsible thing to do. I can't help but feel greedy with four the guy, but at the same time, I do want him every game and don't mind him in multiples against decks like Abzan that certainly have removal for the first. Maybe the fourth Tasigur gets sided out against other decks, which is something I've definitely done before.
- Agree, agree and agree with Courser, Elemental and Sultai Charm. Courser does SO much work in this deck. It gains valuable life (which can really add up in the long game, particularly against aggressive decks), blocks Rabblemasters, Fleecemane Lions etc to help you survive the first 5 turns, and finally, improves your draw steps. Glad you agree re: Charm. It feels like one of the most powerful instants in standard right now, because it is NEVER not useful, and more often than not extremely useful.
- Feed the Clans is a card that I've been SO hesitant to play, but the more I play this deck, the more I feel its needed. With your reaffirmation, I'm sleeving them up right after I post this.
- The Cruise vs Dig thing is another thing I've been meaning to test. There are times where being one mana has won me games, but, of course, other times you draw two or three lands and lose. One of the reasons I felt Cruise was more powerful in this deck at first is because I felt there were very few bad draws in here, and would rather pure card advantage. If I get my hands on some Cruises before this Friday, I'll probably try a 2-2 split and see what goes.
- I've almost come to an opposite conclusion re: Stroke vs Negate, in that in many cases I have plenty of removal for whatever creatures they're playing, making Negate feel like a more useful option. Mainly, because I fear the UB Control matchup. Negate can help you beat their counters, or beat their removal etc. In that matchup, which I feel is probably one of the worst, it does WAY better work than Stroke. I might try removing counterspells from the MB altogether and then pack 2 Stroke and 2 Negate in the board?
- Frontier Siege is sitting nicely as a two-of, in my opinion. I rarely, if ever, want to draw a second copy of the thing - but sometimes it just slams down turn four into Hornet Queen + Ugin to steal you a win, or sometimes it provides you four extra mana a turn to sink into Tasigur, Cruises etc. which helps you stay on top of your opponent. I've been very content with two of them in here.
- Re: Bile Blight and Drown, I've been heavily playtesting the Abzan Aggro matchup for the last few days and definitely feel content with a 2-2 split. Blight deals with Fleecemain, while also letting you do tricky stuff like Blight their Siege Rhino and then block with Courser. Drown can become redundant if they have mana-up for their Deathdealer or level up their Warden, and then becomes a pretty bad top deck. Also, for what its worth, Blight can get around Monastery Mentor/Seeker of the Way with one prowess trigger, which might become a thing we see quite a bit. I guess it depends on your meta.
In further regards to the Abzan matchup, I've noted that Crux of Fate feels absolutely and positively vital. In other aggro matchups, Drowns and Blights can handle - but I very rarely won a game in testing against Abzan where Crux wasn't deployed. In good(ish) news, post SBing, I would win about two thirds of the time.
Glad you enjoyed the deck man. I've been really getting into it too. It's a great balance between having answers, and a great long-game, while still being proactive, applying pressure and being synergistic.
You have to invest so much mana and so much time for minimal returns.
As far as the sideboard, I cut the Pharika and Doomwake because I couldn't see them doing much other cards weren't already doing, Reclamation Sage because I was content with the four charms for that, and a Negate and Disdainful Stroke because I felt like I wanted more proactive stuff, but I am pretty sure I'll put at least the Stroke back in. I added 2 Feed the Clans because I've won enough games off of it to feel strongly about it, 2 Rakshasa Deathdealers because I can't seem to figure out a viable strategy for UB control and if you can get it out before they have counter mana up and they don't immediately have a kill spell it can basically be impossible to remove. It's also not a bad late game pull. One game last week I played it after he tapped out for Ugin, and he had to Bile Blight it three times his next turn to kill it, and if he had one fewer in hand I probably would have won because he used up his hand and I could easily protect it against 2 kill spells a turn. Last I added a single Silence the Believers that I never ended up siding in but I still think could be potentially useful but I'm considering replacing it with a Reality Shift. Generic 2/2s cause no trouble for this deck and it could get rid of a recurring Phoenix or a Stormbreath or other potentially tricky threat to deal with.
And coyw, yeah I think 4 Tasigur is probably the best since you do want to see him every single game. And I usually sided one out against decks that only ran burn removal and that seemed to work okay. I totally didn't even think about Bile Blights against Abzan and you're right. Basically all we can do against a monstrous Fleeceman is block with Tasigur or Torrent. I think the 2-2 split is probably solid, but I think I'm going to find a spot for a third Drown just because I feel the deck is weakest against ramp and aggro and that blanks mana dorks and cards like Rabblemaster and Seeker in one card whereas Bile Blight doesn't. Bile Blight is superior against Abzan for sure, though. Plus the scry can toss a land off the top and get us a kill spell if they follow up the wipe with something big like a Polukranos or Stormbreath. And yeah, I think a 2-2 split between Cruise and Dig might be the right choice until we see how it shakes out better. I can definitely imagine situations where Cruise is superior, but last night I would have almost always preferred Dig and I never had a situation where the 1 mana difference mattered.
You're right on Negate vs UB, but I think that's just a bad match up for us no matter how we board. It's always going to come down to sticking more stuff than they have answers for, and I don't know if two Negates is enough to swing that in our favor rather than just giving us one or two more chances to outrun them, which could be the difference but could easily do nothing. I honestly can't think of a way to make that match better for us, even if we dedicated half of our sideboard to it. PLA is such a frustrating card. It's so slow, but nearly impossible to get rid of. I honestly think our best weapon against UB might be 2-3 Thoughtseizes in the sideboard. What do you think about trying that? Have you tested it in this deck at all?
With Satyr Wayfinder and a fetch he's super easy to get out turn 3 and he blocks basically anything else that gets played around that same point. I can't overstate how good he is.
This card is garbage. He's a big hype right now because he's legitimately good in modern, but in standard he's just an overcosted beater. Sometimes you might get lucky and get the 4/5 on turn 3 or 4 or whatever, but that same thing can be achieved way better in abzan with caryatid + rhino and rhino actually threatens the opponent.