I've been play testing the revised green splash list on MTGO and there are aspects that I do like about it, but the results have been a bit inconsistent (admittedly this is based on a small sample of games). I am not really a fan of the build so far against Esper decks since it is so reliant upon the 5 CMC and they usually have plenty of counter spells ready to go. The key really seems to be getting a good card draw going and that is where the B/r list is probably better with Kolaghan's Command being a less mana intensive way to get back a card like Merciless Executioner. Green has some great graveyard recursion with Den Protectorand I'm loving the slightly more creature heavy build I have going, but I'm not sure if that fits into "control." I can post that build, but I don't feel like it fits with this thread even if I have used this thread as a major launching point for that build.
I mean to learn how competitive a list like this can be; you can look back at all the pages and see where the deck started; to where things have gone; and see Tournament Reports of what I would consider good success with the deck.
I mean; what are the expectations of competitive? Winning a Pro Tour? A GP? Yea; probably not going to get that out of these lists or variations of it.
But winning your FNM? A game day? Hell yea... Could easily do that depending upon your meta choices and tweeks based on the meta.
I'm not going to rehash what caused me to design a Mono Black list and what was going on at the time... the original list was perfect for that meta then.
The deck has gone through many many many changes... as the Meta has also gone through many many changes.
And through all the changes; the best matchups still remained the same; while the rougher matchups also stayed somewhat the same.
To Summarize:
BEST MATCHUPS:
Creature/Aggro/Midrange -- WHY? Because of the Removal; because we aren't tripping over our Mana Base. Because of the Synergies of Palace Siege and being able to reuse Merciless Executioners over and over again.
WORST MATCHUPS:
Burn -- WHY? Because alot of this deck is a tempo control suicide deck... designed in the images of OLD SCHOOL Suicide Black Control/Tempo Control lists. That was my inspiration... So you do alot of damage to yourself. But with Radiant Fountains and Palace Sieges; you start to recoup that life back; you play the deck aggressively and stand by your choices... win or lose. But BURN was always a tough Matchup... The RED SPLASH list with Kolaghan's commands made the Burn matchup much much better because you're not running as many cards that cause yourself pain. So it was definitely much more improved!
Control -- WHY? Because generally the mainboard is designed to beat Aggro/Midrange decks first and foremost. And with Mono Black; even if we splashed the Red or the Green; or even both (I've done both); generally the Control angles of attack were always the same... Hand Disruption. Why is Hand Disruption not always something we can count on? Luck!!! We may empty their hand; but that top decked Elspeth; or that Top Decked Ojutai; or that Top Decked Ashiok... Always spells D.O.O.M. It happens; but let me be clear... I always felt my control matchups were 50/50 crap shoots... my Control Opponent hated playing against this kind of rogue deck; because you just never know the outcome. You'd win some; lose some; and if you didn't lose to mana screw; they were always hella grindy games and hella interesting. Sequencing your spells; weaving in discard; and finding your angles of attack; just always keeps your opponent off balance.
So why play ANY of the variations in this thread?
Because if you're a fan of Old School Black Control Decks; even with the slight splashes; then you'll love the change of pace...
You'll love the Simple Mana Base...
Notice I don't comment on any of the people replying wanting to turn this into a Aggro Deck; adding Den Protector; or Blood Soaked Champion; Tormented Hero; etc.. etc...
This thread was started as a Mono Black Control thread; the style of control is Tempo Based at times; and at times it was passive.
The style of Control could also be considered Suicide or Sui decks...
That's how Mono Black has always played out... you use your life as a resource; and control; disrupt your opponent, while playing resilient threats to win out.
That's what the thread is; anything that deviates; I wont' comment on.
That's not to say your idea is bad; or it won't work; it probably will; and I wish you luck... but it's not what I'm focused on with the decks direction.
Speaking of hand disruption (and I apologize if you have already covered this), but would a card like Mind Rot or Dark Deal be a viable sideboard card for the control match-up? Once again I fully agree with everything stated and the MBC is definitely fun to play. I'm looking forward to fine tuning it more based on my local meta.
Speaking of hand disruption (and I apologize if you have already covered this), but would a card like Mind Rot or Dark Deal be a viable sideboard card for the control match-up? Once again I fully agree with everything stated and the MBC is definitely fun to play. I'm looking forward to fine tuning it more based on my local meta.
The problem with Mind Rot and similar cards is by the time you can play them control decks are setting on a pile of counter spells. Your better off playing Duress or Despise and stripping out there win conditions.
I was thinking as an in addition to type of deal, but that's fair enough. My current SB plan is to bring in Duress on top of Thoughtseize, but perhaps the addition of despise would be more than enough.
Yea i've gone through all of those; on one hand I like a couple of Mind Rots; on the other I like a Thoughtseize + Duress + Despise package even better.
And then I round it all out with 1 or 2 Liliana in the sideboard.
Because of the way the Format is; I've pretty much built my variations to be mainboard better VS Creature decks; midrange or aggro and then just go nuts with like a 10 card Control sideboard.
So maybe something like:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Despise
3 Mind Rot
1 Liliana Vess
This way you can also bring in ANY COMBINATION of Duress/Thoughtseize/Liliana/Mind Rot VS Midrange decks.
Or you could bring in the Duress/Mind Rot VS Burn decks.
VS CoCo Decks; because the Merciless Executioner Removal plan is Sorcery Speed and our Sweeper is also Sorcery; I would treat CoCo decks as Midrange decks; bring in the Thoughtseize and Duress; or maybe the Duress with Mind Rots so you can try and eat their hand and prevent CoCo from being cast. Maybe the 2 Duress 3 Mind Rot 1 Despise VS them or something.
Bring it all in VS Control Decks.
That leaves you 5 Slots that you can bolster your Speedy Aggro Deck Matchups and even Tokens.
1 Crux of Fate
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Bile Blight
...something going in that direction basically.... with the RED Splash that I did; I didn't need to bring as much Discard in from the side because Kolaghan's Command also primarily used the Discard option for it.
But with the Green Splash; yea I'd go nuts. LOL
Like I said; it's a 50/50 crap shoot; they hat playing against us; and when it's clicking; we dominate.
What do people think of a white splash? Could allow for more win cons in Elspeth (our curve is pretty low) and more forms of utility (removal, life gain, evasion, etc.)
I'm loving this convo about the sideboard. I was looking at Mind Rot earlier, but couldn't find the room tbh. I'm currently playing Agent of Erebos in this spot for Deathmist decks.
My meta is mainly aggro/burn or control with a splashing of midrange. I'm pretty good vs the aggro/control decks, but really struggle with the control and Den Protector/Deathmist decks.
So my current side is:
4 Duress
2 Self-Inflicted Wound (not sure if worth it or not)
1 Bile Blight
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Virulent Plague
2 Agent of Erebos
2 Liliana Vess
How do people deal with Deathmist/Den Protector decks?
Also, playing vs 'standard' control (ie with Blue), do we just play through the counter spells? Or what? I've been trying to play around them and not to much success.
EDIT: Looking at making the following changes to it and would like opinions.
-1 Duress
-2 Wound
-2 Agent
+1 Crux (2 mained)
+1 Thoughtseize (2 mained)
+3 Mind Rot
We are incredibly slow....I like the concept of endless merciless executioners but I still think grim haruspex and bloodsoaked would belong in the 75 somewhere as more draw. And attack.
We are incredibly slow....I like the concept of endless merciless executioners but I still think grim haruspex and bloodsoaked would belong in the 75 somewhere as more draw. And attack.
The Thread is "Mono Black Control"... ...and sure; we've gotten a bit away from Mono Black with some of the splash ideas; but with the Splash ideas; we've still maintained the Control/Tempo Control and/or Suicide Black Control core of the deck.
Control Decks are generally pretty slow...
If you want to add alot of creatures to make us faster; then I would suggest heading over to the Mono Black Aggro thread; there's a bunch unless they merged them all into 1.
I'm one of those Deathmist/Den Protector deck players primarily, and I would suggest cards like Tormod's Crypt or Silence the Believers. Both of those cards can wreck that game plan, so if you are encountering those decks a lot, might be worthwhile SB tech. Often times those decks are over reliant on the Den Protector (I myself have been very guilty of that) so the best way to disrupt it is exiling their graveyard and their raptors. Exiling Den Protector is even better.
I am still tweaking the sideboard, but for now I have cut out Windstorm. I do like the card given the current meta, but it is probably unnecessary in this deck since there is no shortage of removal. I feel Naturalize should be in the SB since one of the advantages of a green splash is access to Enchantment/artifact removal, but that is admittedly meta dependent. My LGS has plenty of Mastery of the unseen decks, so I feel it is worthwhile. I'd also consider Back to nature, but I'd hate to take out my own sieges in the process.
Also graveyard exiling cards are on my radar such as Tormod's Crypt. This would be strictly a SB item though.
I tried stain the mind and it can be an awesome card, but I think (based off of play testing too) that most decks are too robust for that to really hurt, especially ones playing a Den/Deathmist package. It did wonders against Jeskai ascendancy and certain control decks where there is a very clear win con that can be disrupted.
Fair point on Agent, but timing might be difficult where as Tormod's Crypt can be put in play and the ability used at a later time. Agent is certainly seeing more play overall, but when I have come up against it, it hasn't hurt my game plan too much so I'd go with whatever you are most comfortable with. The recursion off of Palace Siege definitely makes a better argument for Agent. I would personally say that I'd dislike coming up against Tormod more simply because the ability is more flexible based on board state. Bile Blight into exile graveyard before I can cast and flip would wreck my game haha.
^This is also one of the reasons why I've started playing around with the MBC build. The Den/Deathmist engine is great, but ultimately I enjoy disrupting my opponents board the most which is why my main standard deck has gone the direction it has (aggro/midrange transformed into midrange control). The MBC (with splash where appropriate) gives me the same potential and at this point I'm not sure which one I enjoy more.
I am still tweaking the sideboard, but for now I have cut out Windstorm. I do like the card given the current meta, but it is probably unnecessary in this deck since there is no shortage of removal. I feel Naturalize should be in the SB since one of the advantages of a green splash is access to Enchantment/artifact removal, but that is admittedly meta dependent. My LGS has plenty of Mastery of the unseen decks, so I feel it is worthwhile. I'd also consider Back to nature, but I'd hate to take out my own sieges in the process.
Also graveyard exiling cards are on my radar such as Tormod's Crypt. This would be strictly a SB item though.
So far I'm playing Agent, as he's reusable. Another one I'm thinking of is Stain The Mind, but unsure if it's worth it. Thanks!
What would your recommendation be, seeing you play the Den/Deathmist decks, which one would you hate to have played against you more?
For GY hate; I was pretty keen on Agent of Erebos myself; simply because he synergizes with the "Bring Back Creature" shananigans. So in theory you could do it more than once every time you play it.
However; Tormod Crypt is also high on my Radar too for GY hate. I like it alot.
Not a big fan of Stain the Mind simply because we generally don't get to make it cheaper; so by the time we have to play it; it's not really answering alot of the things we want it to answer... and VS Control; if we're tapping out 5 for it; chances are it's getting countered.
So I wasn't a fan of Stain... Agent of Erebos and Crypt are much more flexible; and the only reason Agent gets my favor is because of the Palace Siege synergy.
Thanks guys. Had a lot of games against a mates Esper control list (PW Control) and got destroyed every game, including post board. I just lose out to all the instant speed draw spells that they can chain together, not to mentioned the counters. I just feel the matchup is unwinnable. I'm probably playing it wrong though.
Esper is a tough matchup for any deck IMO. If your local meta has a lot of esper control, then the deck would probably require tweaking in the mainboard to deal with it. I know my creature heavy decks have a hard time dealing with Esper and that is with getting them to constantly use their counter spells.
The vs Esper idea really makes me think of this article on understanding what role your deck plays.
Overall I'm still learning how to best play the MBC deck and the mirror matches are certainly tough, but I wouldn't say they are unwinnable. Hand disruption is key as is timing. Any time I've tried to be the aggressor, it hasn't panned out well for me with this build. I feel I have to be more reactionary in order to make a good go at it.
edit: I totally forgot that the above article does talk about the old suicide black decks which is similar in style to what the MBC deck is doing, so it is very relevant to this discussion, even if the cards have long since rotated.
Thanks guys. Had a lot of games against a mates Esper control list (PW Control) and got destroyed every game, including post board. I just lose out to all the instant speed draw spells that they can chain together, not to mentioned the counters. I just feel the matchup is unwinnable. I'm probably playing it wrong though.
Esper is a tough matchup for any deck IMO. If your local meta has a lot of esper control, then the deck would probably require tweaking in the mainboard to deal with it. I know my creature heavy decks have a hard time dealing with Esper and that is with getting them to constantly use their counter spells.
The vs Esper idea really makes me think of this article on understanding what role your deck plays.
Overall I'm still learning how to best play the MBC deck and the mirror matches are certainly tough, but I wouldn't say they are unwinnable. Hand disruption is key as is timing. Any time I've tried to be the aggressor, it hasn't panned out well for me with this build. I feel I have to be more reactionary in order to make a good go at it.
Yea I mean if you're playing MOSTLY Esper lists at your Local Store; then you could easily pull some of the removal and go with a Thoughtseize + Duress package.
If you look at my FIRST version of the deck when I first came up with it; I not only had Mainboard Thoughtseize; I had mainboard Liliana and 2 Ugins.
With that said; I've always maintained that our worst matchups no matter the variation are BURN DECKS and CONTROL DECKS; specifically Esper or UB.
Burn decks love facing me...
While Control Decks hated facing me; because I feel the matchup isn't unwinable; I know what my role is; I know how you gotta attack the deck; and I stack heavily against them in favor of what the role is.
Control Role is just targeted Discard.
One card I wanted to try out and had it planned in my last Red Splash list was Brain Maggot; I haven't played the list since then just simply because I've been more focused on Modern as of late and playing a similar list in STD now too. GRIXIS
But my theories are still sound...
With Brain Maggot though; you take their best card; support that with Thoughtseize/Duress/Despise splits; they are forced to use their best removal spells on Brain Maggot; all the while we can bring them back.
It's a resilient Targeted Discard option; where Thoughtseize/Duress/Despise don't come back once we use it.
So my Control Opponents never liked facing me; because if things clicked; they lost; if things didn't they won but it was usually a grindy painful match. lol
With my Red Splash list; even Burn was becoming a much much better matchup.
Now; I say all this but admit I haven't played the list ina while; haven't played the Red Splash list ina while...
If I were to guess; I have to say that the Collective Company decks maybe a problem too with this type of deck.
Simply because you need LOTS of Instant Speed removal; and/or Instant Speed sweepers which we don't really have.
Our Removal Package is very very consistent and reliable; and can go very very deep in games once we get the Merciless Executioner + Siege package going.
But none of that matters if you're opponent is casting Instant Speed CoCo; putting 2 creatures down; and then untapping and casting another creature or 2.
@Battle
I think that's the issue. I'm playing aggressor (used to playing aggro/midrange decks I think - this is my first control deck). I liked the article, good read!
@Rotten
He's the only Esper list, so I'm fine haha. I mean, there's one other, but he rarely shows. I have 2 mb Seize.
I really want to find room for the Maggot in my board, but room :(. I like Duress/seize better. I guess I could cut Mind Rots for them, but have been loving Mind Rot.
So I'm starting to get interested in picking up my list again.
I made a few adjustments when considering the current meta game at my shop.
Lots of Dragon Decks; and CoCo Decks; and still alot of Rabblemasters.
Still very little control to worry about; I'm one of a few people that play Control decks at my shop.
So I've adjusted things to deal with Aggro/Midrange in the Mainboard; keeping in mind that I think CoCo decks could be a big problem for a deck like this; I've upped my Silence of the Believers love again.
I am very very high on Silence of the Believers right now; early game you Exile their biggest; late game you can take 2 or more if you're at 7 to 10 mana; and easily we can get there.
VS Control: UB, Esper, Jeskai Control OUT: (9) x2 Crux; x3 Silence the Believers; x4 Bile Blight IN: (9) x2 Liliana Vess; x3 Duress; x4 Thoughtseize VERDICT: We still have Merciless Executioners; Downfalls to deal with any creatures and walkers. This gives me 7 1 CMC Targeted Discard Spells; attack their DRAW and then attack their Threats. Attack Ench hate after that. The mainboard Kolaghan's Commands should be put on 2 Damage and Discard I feel first and foremost. We want to get them in Top Deck mode so that things like Palace Siege can resolve and add to chipping away at their life total. Also so that DASHED Hordes HIT. We could bring in the extra Ugin too out of the side; but I don't think it's needed.
VS Midrange: AKA Dragon Decks, Mardu Midrange, Jund Midrange, Abzan Rhino NON CoCo Decks OUT: (5) x4 Bile Blight; x1 Empty the Pits IN: (5) x1 Crux of Fate; x1 Foul-Tongue Invocation; x2 Liliana Vess; x1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon VERDICT: Midrange are VS Decks that have 4 and 5 Cost and above Creatures; I don't worry too much about the smaller creatures; the Executioners usually can take care of those if say they're playing a mix of Midrange with some early threats. If say they're Rabblemasters or other smaller creatures; then keep some of the Bile Blights for extra protection. The Foul-Tongue is really just a 5th Sac effect; there's really nothing there... so it's unimportant. Board Sweeps Board Sweeps Board Sweeps. The reason I bring in a 2nd Ugin is because alot of these decks run Outpost Sieges or other Sieges that you want to be careful about. Those types of cards could easily run away with games. Be sure to slow play your Palace Sieges; or go ahead and play the 1st or 2nd one and get your Merciless Executioner train going; but don't over extend on the Sieges till you've stripped all their threats from them. I like Liliana because it forces them to PLAY Magic. It drops down; and starts to slowly pluck away at their hand. And when they're hand is stripped; start tutoring for your Sieges and Hordes.
VS Aggro: AKA Atarka Red, Rabble Red, Boros Aggro, Mono Black Aggro OUT: (6) x1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon; x1 Erebos, God of the Dead; x3 Silence the Believers; x1 Empty the Pits IN: (6) x2 Drown in Sorrow; x1 Foul-Tongue Invocation; 3 Duress VERDICT: So between the Executioners, Downfalls, Bile Blights, and Kolaghan's Commands; this should really be an easy match. The Mono Black Version ran more Self Inflicted Pain cards like Read the Bones and mainboard Thoughtseize. With the Red Splash; we don't need those things; and Kolaghan's Commands really go along way to making these Aggro Matchups that shift to Burn Decks easier. The side plan is basically taking out anything that is too slow; and adding in more board sweepers and cheaper removal. I also like the Duress in these Matchups to help pluck away any Sandbagged Burn Spells or even Pump Spells. Because generally I like to do 2 Damage to a Creature and force them to Discard more cards with Kolaghan's Commands. Helps to yank away any gas that these decks generally start off having; because once you hit Turn 5; generally they're all out of Gas; and they usually can't deal with Palace Siege DRAIN 2 at all.
VS CoCo.dek: Abzan CoCo, Temur CoCo OUT: (8) x2 Merciless Executioner; x2 Crux of Fate; x2 Sign in Blood; x1 Empty the Pits; x1 Kolaghan's Command IN: (8) x4 Thoughtseize; x3 Duress; x1 Foul-Tongue Invocation VERDICT: I treat this deck as a Midrange Deck although alot of times it's still an AGGRO or MIDRANGE deck. You really need to prevent CoCo from happening. Because the problem with that card is it's Instant Speed put 2 creatures into play; then they untap and attack. They just start to overwhelm us. So you really want alot of INSTANT speed removal; you also want the Thoughtseize and Duress I feel so that we can try and hit the CoCo and also pluck away any early Threats so that we can save our Instant Speed removal for mid/later game. I don't know if this is the right plan; but this is the plan I feel could work... Silence the Believers being the best card I feel in this match. So you want to hit Silence the Believers; you want to hit your land drops; so that you can get to a point you can Strive it once or twice. And once we've taken care of any threats they have; the deck putters out very much like a Aggro deck. Once you've cleared away their first 4 or 5 Turns of Threats; and dealt with CoCo; they really don't have much else going on after that for the most part. I don't know if it's right to pull Crux; but I feel like having Crux at Sorcery speed against these decks isn't as good as just stocking up on Silence the Believers and alot of other Cheap Instant Speed removal. We still keep a few Merciless Executioners; because in this match; it's really about the Instant Speed stuff at first; and then to take our Removal package into the late game while we try to WIN and finish; all we need is 1 Merciless Executioner and 1 Palace Siege to keep getting the 1 Executioner back to then keep them completely down after that.
Im strongly considering blood soaked champion....I feel that it would be less clunky to attack and sack with merciless and raid it back. Sidisi as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I mean; what are the expectations of competitive? Winning a Pro Tour? A GP? Yea; probably not going to get that out of these lists or variations of it.
But winning your FNM? A game day? Hell yea... Could easily do that depending upon your meta choices and tweeks based on the meta.
I'm not going to rehash what caused me to design a Mono Black list and what was going on at the time... the original list was perfect for that meta then.
The deck has gone through many many many changes... as the Meta has also gone through many many changes.
And through all the changes; the best matchups still remained the same; while the rougher matchups also stayed somewhat the same.
To Summarize:
BEST MATCHUPS:
Creature/Aggro/Midrange -- WHY? Because of the Removal; because we aren't tripping over our Mana Base. Because of the Synergies of Palace Siege and being able to reuse Merciless Executioners over and over again.
WORST MATCHUPS:
Burn -- WHY? Because alot of this deck is a tempo control suicide deck... designed in the images of OLD SCHOOL Suicide Black Control/Tempo Control lists. That was my inspiration... So you do alot of damage to yourself. But with Radiant Fountains and Palace Sieges; you start to recoup that life back; you play the deck aggressively and stand by your choices... win or lose. But BURN was always a tough Matchup... The RED SPLASH list with Kolaghan's commands made the Burn matchup much much better because you're not running as many cards that cause yourself pain. So it was definitely much more improved!
Control -- WHY? Because generally the mainboard is designed to beat Aggro/Midrange decks first and foremost. And with Mono Black; even if we splashed the Red or the Green; or even both (I've done both); generally the Control angles of attack were always the same... Hand Disruption. Why is Hand Disruption not always something we can count on? Luck!!! We may empty their hand; but that top decked Elspeth; or that Top Decked Ojutai; or that Top Decked Ashiok... Always spells D.O.O.M. It happens; but let me be clear... I always felt my control matchups were 50/50 crap shoots... my Control Opponent hated playing against this kind of rogue deck; because you just never know the outcome. You'd win some; lose some; and if you didn't lose to mana screw; they were always hella grindy games and hella interesting. Sequencing your spells; weaving in discard; and finding your angles of attack; just always keeps your opponent off balance.
So why play ANY of the variations in this thread?
Because if you're a fan of Old School Black Control Decks; even with the slight splashes; then you'll love the change of pace...
You'll love the Simple Mana Base...
Notice I don't comment on any of the people replying wanting to turn this into a Aggro Deck; adding Den Protector; or Blood Soaked Champion; Tormented Hero; etc.. etc...
This thread was started as a Mono Black Control thread; the style of control is Tempo Based at times; and at times it was passive.
The style of Control could also be considered Suicide or Sui decks...
That's how Mono Black has always played out... you use your life as a resource; and control; disrupt your opponent, while playing resilient threats to win out.
That's what the thread is; anything that deviates; I wont' comment on.
That's not to say your idea is bad; or it won't work; it probably will; and I wish you luck... but it's not what I'm focused on with the decks direction.
And then I round it all out with 1 or 2 Liliana in the sideboard.
Because of the way the Format is; I've pretty much built my variations to be mainboard better VS Creature decks; midrange or aggro and then just go nuts with like a 10 card Control sideboard.
So maybe something like:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Despise
3 Mind Rot
1 Liliana Vess
This way you can also bring in ANY COMBINATION of Duress/Thoughtseize/Liliana/Mind Rot VS Midrange decks.
Or you could bring in the Duress/Mind Rot VS Burn decks.
VS CoCo Decks; because the Merciless Executioner Removal plan is Sorcery Speed and our Sweeper is also Sorcery; I would treat CoCo decks as Midrange decks; bring in the Thoughtseize and Duress; or maybe the Duress with Mind Rots so you can try and eat their hand and prevent CoCo from being cast. Maybe the 2 Duress 3 Mind Rot 1 Despise VS them or something.
Bring it all in VS Control Decks.
That leaves you 5 Slots that you can bolster your Speedy Aggro Deck Matchups and even Tokens.
1 Crux of Fate
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Bile Blight
...something going in that direction basically.... with the RED Splash that I did; I didn't need to bring as much Discard in from the side because Kolaghan's Command also primarily used the Discard option for it.
But with the Green Splash; yea I'd go nuts. LOL
Like I said; it's a 50/50 crap shoot; they hat playing against us; and when it's clicking; we dominate.
My meta is mainly aggro/burn or control with a splashing of midrange. I'm pretty good vs the aggro/control decks, but really struggle with the control and Den Protector/Deathmist decks.
So my current side is:
4 Duress
2 Self-Inflicted Wound (not sure if worth it or not)
1 Bile Blight
3 Drown in Sorrow
1 Virulent Plague
2 Agent of Erebos
2 Liliana Vess
How do people deal with Deathmist/Den Protector decks?
Also, playing vs 'standard' control (ie with Blue), do we just play through the counter spells? Or what? I've been trying to play around them and not to much success.
EDIT: Looking at making the following changes to it and would like opinions.
-1 Duress
-2 Wound
-2 Agent
+1 Crux (2 mained)
+1 Thoughtseize (2 mained)
+3 Mind Rot
The Thread is "Mono Black Control"... ...and sure; we've gotten a bit away from Mono Black with some of the splash ideas; but with the Splash ideas; we've still maintained the Control/Tempo Control and/or Suicide Black Control core of the deck.
Control Decks are generally pretty slow...
If you want to add alot of creatures to make us faster; then I would suggest heading over to the Mono Black Aggro thread; there's a bunch unless they merged them all into 1.
Edit: This is in response to corranhorn01
4 Merciless Executioner
2 Pitiless Horde
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Sorcery: 12
4 Thoughtseize
2 Read the Bones
4 Sign in Blood
2 Crux of Fate
2 Ultimate Price
3 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
Enchantments: 4
4 Palace Siege
Planeswalkers: 2
2 Garruk, Apex Predator
Lands: 25
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
4 Radiant Fountain
13 Swamp
2 Duress
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Mind Rot
1 Liliana Vess
1 Dictate of Erebos
2 Naturalize
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Crux of Fate
1 Ultimate Price
1 Despise
I am still tweaking the sideboard, but for now I have cut out Windstorm. I do like the card given the current meta, but it is probably unnecessary in this deck since there is no shortage of removal. I feel Naturalize should be in the SB since one of the advantages of a green splash is access to Enchantment/artifact removal, but that is admittedly meta dependent. My LGS has plenty of Mastery of the unseen decks, so I feel it is worthwhile. I'd also consider Back to nature, but I'd hate to take out my own sieges in the process.
Also graveyard exiling cards are on my radar such as Tormod's Crypt. This would be strictly a SB item though.
What would your recommendation be, seeing you play the Den/Deathmist decks, which one would you hate to have played against you more?
Fair point on Agent, but timing might be difficult where as Tormod's Crypt can be put in play and the ability used at a later time. Agent is certainly seeing more play overall, but when I have come up against it, it hasn't hurt my game plan too much so I'd go with whatever you are most comfortable with. The recursion off of Palace Siege definitely makes a better argument for Agent. I would personally say that I'd dislike coming up against Tormod more simply because the ability is more flexible based on board state. Bile Blight into exile graveyard before I can cast and flip would wreck my game haha.
^This is also one of the reasons why I've started playing around with the MBC build. The Den/Deathmist engine is great, but ultimately I enjoy disrupting my opponents board the most which is why my main standard deck has gone the direction it has (aggro/midrange transformed into midrange control). The MBC (with splash where appropriate) gives me the same potential and at this point I'm not sure which one I enjoy more.
I'll give Crypt a run. Thanks a lot! I guess Crypt can also come in vs control/dragons, assuming they are running lots of delve/recursion
For GY hate; I was pretty keen on Agent of Erebos myself; simply because he synergizes with the "Bring Back Creature" shananigans. So in theory you could do it more than once every time you play it.
However; Tormod Crypt is also high on my Radar too for GY hate. I like it alot.
Not a big fan of Stain the Mind simply because we generally don't get to make it cheaper; so by the time we have to play it; it's not really answering alot of the things we want it to answer... and VS Control; if we're tapping out 5 for it; chances are it's getting countered.
So I wasn't a fan of Stain... Agent of Erebos and Crypt are much more flexible; and the only reason Agent gets my favor is because of the Palace Siege synergy.
The vs Esper idea really makes me think of this article on understanding what role your deck plays.
Overall I'm still learning how to best play the MBC deck and the mirror matches are certainly tough, but I wouldn't say they are unwinnable. Hand disruption is key as is timing. Any time I've tried to be the aggressor, it hasn't panned out well for me with this build. I feel I have to be more reactionary in order to make a good go at it.
edit: I totally forgot that the above article does talk about the old suicide black decks which is similar in style to what the MBC deck is doing, so it is very relevant to this discussion, even if the cards have long since rotated.
Yea I mean if you're playing MOSTLY Esper lists at your Local Store; then you could easily pull some of the removal and go with a Thoughtseize + Duress package.
If you look at my FIRST version of the deck when I first came up with it; I not only had Mainboard Thoughtseize; I had mainboard Liliana and 2 Ugins.
With that said; I've always maintained that our worst matchups no matter the variation are BURN DECKS and CONTROL DECKS; specifically Esper or UB.
Burn decks love facing me...
While Control Decks hated facing me; because I feel the matchup isn't unwinable; I know what my role is; I know how you gotta attack the deck; and I stack heavily against them in favor of what the role is.
Control Role is just targeted Discard.
One card I wanted to try out and had it planned in my last Red Splash list was Brain Maggot; I haven't played the list since then just simply because I've been more focused on Modern as of late and playing a similar list in STD now too. GRIXIS
But my theories are still sound...
With Brain Maggot though; you take their best card; support that with Thoughtseize/Duress/Despise splits; they are forced to use their best removal spells on Brain Maggot; all the while we can bring them back.
It's a resilient Targeted Discard option; where Thoughtseize/Duress/Despise don't come back once we use it.
So my Control Opponents never liked facing me; because if things clicked; they lost; if things didn't they won but it was usually a grindy painful match. lol
With my Red Splash list; even Burn was becoming a much much better matchup.
Now; I say all this but admit I haven't played the list ina while; haven't played the Red Splash list ina while...
If I were to guess; I have to say that the Collective Company decks maybe a problem too with this type of deck.
Simply because you need LOTS of Instant Speed removal; and/or Instant Speed sweepers which we don't really have.
Our Removal Package is very very consistent and reliable; and can go very very deep in games once we get the Merciless Executioner + Siege package going.
But none of that matters if you're opponent is casting Instant Speed CoCo; putting 2 creatures down; and then untapping and casting another creature or 2.
So things like Silence the Believers could be good... going back to Mainboard Thoughtseize is what I would recommend.
But I say again; if your meta is heavy control; I would totally be up to playing a list like this...
Cut out the mainboard Blights; and Ultimate Price; keep the Downfalls and Merciless Executioners; keep the Palace Sieges.
Mainboard Duress/Thoughtseize package; maybe a 1/4 split or a 2/3 Split even a 2/4 Split.. Something like that.
Good luck.
I think that's the issue. I'm playing aggressor (used to playing aggro/midrange decks I think - this is my first control deck). I liked the article, good read!
@Rotten
He's the only Esper list, so I'm fine haha. I mean, there's one other, but he rarely shows. I have 2 mb Seize.
I really want to find room for the Maggot in my board, but room :(. I like Duress/seize better. I guess I could cut Mind Rots for them, but have been loving Mind Rot.
I made a few adjustments when considering the current meta game at my shop.
Lots of Dragon Decks; and CoCo Decks; and still alot of Rabblemasters.
Still very little control to worry about; I'm one of a few people that play Control decks at my shop.
So I've adjusted things to deal with Aggro/Midrange in the Mainboard; keeping in mind that I think CoCo decks could be a big problem for a deck like this; I've upped my Silence of the Believers love again.
I am very very high on Silence of the Believers right now; early game you Exile their biggest; late game you can take 2 or more if you're at 7 to 10 mana; and easily we can get there.
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Merciless Executioner
2 Pitiless Horde
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Spells: 22
2 Crux of Fate
4 Bile Blight
3 Silence the Believers
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Kolaghan's Command
4 Sign in Blood
1 Empty the Pits
4 Palace Siege
Planeswalkers: 1
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands: 25
10 Swamp
4 Bloodfell Caves
4 Temple of Malace
2 Nomad Outpost
4 Radiant Fountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Liliana Vess
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Virulent Plague
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Crux of Fate
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Some Sideboard plans:
VS Control: UB, Esper, Jeskai Control
OUT: (9) x2 Crux; x3 Silence the Believers; x4 Bile Blight
IN: (9) x2 Liliana Vess; x3 Duress; x4 Thoughtseize
VERDICT: We still have Merciless Executioners; Downfalls to deal with any creatures and walkers. This gives me 7 1 CMC Targeted Discard Spells; attack their DRAW and then attack their Threats. Attack Ench hate after that. The mainboard Kolaghan's Commands should be put on 2 Damage and Discard I feel first and foremost. We want to get them in Top Deck mode so that things like Palace Siege can resolve and add to chipping away at their life total. Also so that DASHED Hordes HIT. We could bring in the extra Ugin too out of the side; but I don't think it's needed.
VS Midrange: AKA Dragon Decks, Mardu Midrange, Jund Midrange, Abzan Rhino NON CoCo Decks
OUT: (5) x4 Bile Blight; x1 Empty the Pits
IN: (5) x1 Crux of Fate; x1 Foul-Tongue Invocation; x2 Liliana Vess; x1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
VERDICT: Midrange are VS Decks that have 4 and 5 Cost and above Creatures; I don't worry too much about the smaller creatures; the Executioners usually can take care of those if say they're playing a mix of Midrange with some early threats. If say they're Rabblemasters or other smaller creatures; then keep some of the Bile Blights for extra protection. The Foul-Tongue is really just a 5th Sac effect; there's really nothing there... so it's unimportant. Board Sweeps Board Sweeps Board Sweeps. The reason I bring in a 2nd Ugin is because alot of these decks run Outpost Sieges or other Sieges that you want to be careful about. Those types of cards could easily run away with games. Be sure to slow play your Palace Sieges; or go ahead and play the 1st or 2nd one and get your Merciless Executioner train going; but don't over extend on the Sieges till you've stripped all their threats from them. I like Liliana because it forces them to PLAY Magic. It drops down; and starts to slowly pluck away at their hand. And when they're hand is stripped; start tutoring for your Sieges and Hordes.
VS Aggro: AKA Atarka Red, Rabble Red, Boros Aggro, Mono Black Aggro
OUT: (6) x1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon; x1 Erebos, God of the Dead; x3 Silence the Believers; x1 Empty the Pits
IN: (6) x2 Drown in Sorrow; x1 Foul-Tongue Invocation; 3 Duress
VERDICT: So between the Executioners, Downfalls, Bile Blights, and Kolaghan's Commands; this should really be an easy match. The Mono Black Version ran more Self Inflicted Pain cards like Read the Bones and mainboard Thoughtseize. With the Red Splash; we don't need those things; and Kolaghan's Commands really go along way to making these Aggro Matchups that shift to Burn Decks easier. The side plan is basically taking out anything that is too slow; and adding in more board sweepers and cheaper removal. I also like the Duress in these Matchups to help pluck away any Sandbagged Burn Spells or even Pump Spells. Because generally I like to do 2 Damage to a Creature and force them to Discard more cards with Kolaghan's Commands. Helps to yank away any gas that these decks generally start off having; because once you hit Turn 5; generally they're all out of Gas; and they usually can't deal with Palace Siege DRAIN 2 at all.
VS CoCo.dek: Abzan CoCo, Temur CoCo
OUT: (8) x2 Merciless Executioner; x2 Crux of Fate; x2 Sign in Blood; x1 Empty the Pits; x1 Kolaghan's Command
IN: (8) x4 Thoughtseize; x3 Duress; x1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
VERDICT: I treat this deck as a Midrange Deck although alot of times it's still an AGGRO or MIDRANGE deck. You really need to prevent CoCo from happening. Because the problem with that card is it's Instant Speed put 2 creatures into play; then they untap and attack. They just start to overwhelm us. So you really want alot of INSTANT speed removal; you also want the Thoughtseize and Duress I feel so that we can try and hit the CoCo and also pluck away any early Threats so that we can save our Instant Speed removal for mid/later game. I don't know if this is the right plan; but this is the plan I feel could work... Silence the Believers being the best card I feel in this match. So you want to hit Silence the Believers; you want to hit your land drops; so that you can get to a point you can Strive it once or twice. And once we've taken care of any threats they have; the deck putters out very much like a Aggro deck. Once you've cleared away their first 4 or 5 Turns of Threats; and dealt with CoCo; they really don't have much else going on after that for the most part. I don't know if it's right to pull Crux; but I feel like having Crux at Sorcery speed against these decks isn't as good as just stocking up on Silence the Believers and alot of other Cheap Instant Speed removal. We still keep a few Merciless Executioners; because in this match; it's really about the Instant Speed stuff at first; and then to take our Removal package into the late game while we try to WIN and finish; all we need is 1 Merciless Executioner and 1 Palace Siege to keep getting the 1 Executioner back to then keep them completely down after that.