My version is creature combo, with no non-permanent spells, and a 23 land count. Im able to quickly draw into the pieces I need and combo off on turns 4-6. I think that like you said, revelation could really be decent, i see the merit in your argument for it. Its just as I said, boiled down, the fewer spells the better- from a consistency standpoint. I NEED my genny to give me two creatures, and hopefully draw 1-2+ cards. If it comes down as a 6/6 and i get nothing, im in trouble. I agree that this deck has many styles of play and lists, and that each plays out differently. But in mine I just cant do it- sb maybe though
I've tested a number of different cards in the deck, and I keep coming back to the same issue: Non-permanents are significantly worse. Chord of Calling, didn't pull its weight, 90% of the time I hate drawing a Setessan Tactics, Shamanic Revelation is rarely as good as you want it to be, counterspells simply rot in your hand most games. In practice, Revelation consistently drew 2-4 cards a game... Not good enough for a 5 mana sorcery in this deck. There is too much removal in the format to bank on having multiple creatures in play when you have a Revelation, and that's just pre-board, post-board, fuggedaboutit. Just about everybody sideboards a wrath of some sort.
I am not saying it is without risk. But please don't mistake trading lands and dig spells as affecting your non-creature count. I personally prefer a beefier, less gimmicky build. But as far as Assault Formation goes, this is what works best in my testing. As with anything, you can go with a slower build that has more land drops, but you will have less consistency and harder mulligans (and the same number of non-creature spells).
IMO ... If you want to run Assault Formation in Temur Combo, this is the way to go. If you want more solid traditional game, you should probably run some other threat suite -- not Assault Formation.
Combo Oriented Build Traditional Advantage Build
As far as wrath effects go... I highly recomend looking to Whisperwood Elemental in the SB -- Easily swapped with Prophet of Kruphix.
Please take the time to fully comprehend what it is you are responding to. I wasn't talking about Assault Formation at all, I was specifically referring to Shamanic Revelation and other things that neither build devotion, nor can be found with a Genesis Hydra.
I have yet to test Assault Formation, but I do worry about potentially decreasing the number of threats in the deck, especially since Assault Formation is asking for the exact opposite of Temur Ascendancy. I think Assault Formation and Temur Ascendancy are asking you to build very different decks around them, that's not to say they can't work together, and Assault Formation may be great, but at least in my current build, the only creatures that benefit from it are Courser of Kruphix (3), Sylvan Caryatid (2) and Karametra's Acolyte (1). Its entirely possible that Assault Formation is so good I would want to warp my deck around it, but that will only come with more testing.
How do you gauge Den Protector in Temur Ascendancy? I have him this build below and is cycling all my fetch lands in the early game then brings back whatever part of the combo my opponent happens to get rid of.
Notable interactions:
Constellation/Ascendancy Draw power- With 12 enchantments and 11 to 14 four power creatures.
Going Aggro - Den Protector/Bestow Boon Satyr or Surrak's Formidable Ability
All Permanent - High percentage to hit with Genesis Hydra.
Trick interaction - Turn 1 Mystic into turn 2 facedown Den Protector, turn 3 morphed the Protector and get a used fetch land use again
I think Savage Ventmaw needs consideration as a 1-of. With an Ascendancy out, you can drop him, draw a card, swing, and drop some more threats post combat, to gum up the board when you aren't ready to combo out
Please take the time to fully comprehend what it is you are responding to. I wasn't talking about Assault Formation at all, I was specifically referring to Shamanic Revelation and other things that neither build devotion, nor can be found with a Genesis Hydra.
Please feel free to take your own advice on this one. I HAVE tested the deck extensively. I was one of the first people to be working on this deck before it was spoiled on SCG. In fact, I have been refining this deck with Kaevyn since it was a ramp-shell pushing Villainous wealth.
If you can't be bothered to read what I have previously written, and you can't be bothered to test for yourself I will state this as plainly as I can. Ramp Formation should ONLY be run in the COMBO-ONLY orientation of the build and SHOULD be run with a low land count, lots of ramp creatures, and should include Shamanic Revelation. Here is a mock up of that deck if you would like to test it yourself. In this version you are trying to ramp as fast as possible and blast out mana to win, or refill your hand. The only thing the deck cares about is flooding the board pre-wipe and using Assault formation as early Defense + EOG mana sink for the win. Shamanic Revelation is tailor made for converting your Mana Dorks into cards-in-hand, refueling the machine for your next attempt to close the game.
That said, I believe that RAMP-AGGRO is a better build. Here is a mock up of THAT deck if you would like to test it. This deck plays a more traditional game gaining slow advantage until you can win outright, OR assembling the combo to win out of nowhere. Neither Assault Formation nor Shamanic Revelation is used here because you are planning on building advantage slowly -- the turns you would normally want to play assault formation, you want to play fatter better creatures than your opponent, and usually go to the face with fliers. in even the worst board states, you can clog the battlefield and buy time to assemble the combo to win.
This is why I have said in the past, this deck has diverged. Whichever way you want to build it is up to you. but you have to decide on a plan, not just a pile of cards.
Do you want to play Breakfast-Cereal* combo? Ramp Formation
Do you want strong midgame synergy with late game inevitability? Sarkan Ascendancy
*While I was not able to find a good article about it, This archetype comes from older magic decks that played like a kid opening a box of sugary breakfast cereal -- pop the top and start digging for the toy in the bottom of the box.
I've tested a number of different cards in the deck, and I keep coming back to the same issue: Non-permanents are significantly worse. Chord of Calling, didn't pull its weight, 90% of the time I hate drawing a Setessan Tactics, Shamanic Revelation is rarely as good as you want it to be, counterspells simply rot in your hand most games. In practice, Revelation consistently drew 2-4 cards a game... Not good enough for a 5 mana sorcery in this deck. There is too much removal in the format to bank on having multiple creatures in play when you have a Revelation, and that's just pre-board, post-board, fuggedaboutit. Just about everybody sideboards a wrath of some sort.
I simply stated my opinion that cards like Shamanic Revelation are not good in the deck due to not being permanents that produce threats or devotion. Then, in a somewhat patronizing tone you respond thusly...
I am not saying it is without risk. But please don't mistake trading lands and dig spells as affecting your non-creature count. I personally prefer a beefier, less gimmicky build. But as far as Assault Formation goes, this is what works best in my testing. As with anything, you can go with a slower build that has more land drops, but you will have less consistency and harder mulligans (and the same number of non-creature spells).
IMO ... If you want to run Assault Formation in Temur Combo, this is the way to go. If you want more solid traditional game, you should probably run some other threat suite -- not Assault Formation.
Combo Oriented Build Traditional Advantage Build
As far as wrath effects go... I highly recomend looking to Whisperwood Elemental in the SB -- Easily swapped with Prophet of Kruphix.
I then attempt to correct the misunderstanding using a similar tone to your own previous post. I defer to your judgement on Assault Formation because I don't have much experience with the card, though I do note my misgivings concerning it.
Please take the time to fully comprehend what it is you are responding to. I wasn't talking about Assault Formation at all, I was specifically referring to Shamanic Revelation and other things that neither build devotion, nor can be found with a Genesis Hydra.
I have yet to test Assault Formation, but I do worry about potentially decreasing the number of threats in the deck, especially since Assault Formation is asking for the exact opposite of Temur Ascendancy. I think Assault Formation and Temur Ascendancy are asking you to build very different decks around them, that's not to say they can't work together, and Assault Formation may be great, but at least in my current build, the only creatures that benefit from it are Courser of Kruphix (3), Sylvan Caryatid (2) and Karametra's Acolyte (1). Its entirely possible that Assault Formation is so good I would want to warp my deck around it, but that will only come with more testing.
You then decide to insult me and talk down to me about how long you have worked on the deck and about how the deck works/changed/etc...
Please feel free to take your own advice on this one. I HAVE tested the deck extensively. I was one of the first people to be working on this deck before it was spoiled on SCG. In fact, I have been refining this deck with Kaevyn since it was a ramp-shell pushing Villainous wealth.
If you can't be bothered to read what I have previously written, and you can't be bothered to test for yourself I will state this as plainly as I can. Ramp Formation should ONLY be run in the COMBO-ONLY orientation of the build and SHOULD be run with a low land count, lots of ramp creatures, and should include Shamanic Revelation. Here is a mock up of that deck if you would like to test it yourself. In this version you are trying to ramp as fast as possible and blast out mana to win, or refill your hand. The only thing the deck cares about is flooding the board pre-wipe and using Assault formation as early Defense + EOG mana sink for the win. Shamanic Revelation is tailor made for converting your Mana Dorks into cards-in-hand, refueling the machine for your next attempt to close the game.
That said, I believe that RAMP-AGGRO is a better build. Here is a mock up of THAT deck if you would like to test it. This deck plays a more traditional game gaining slow advantage until you can win outright, OR assembling the combo to win out of nowhere. Neither Assault Formation nor Shamanic Revelation is used here because you are planning on building advantage slowly -- the turns you would normally want to play assault formation, you want to play fatter better creatures than your opponent, and usually go to the face with fliers. in even the worst board states, you can clog the battlefield and buy time to assemble the combo to win.
This is why I have said in the past, this deck has diverged. Whichever way you want to build it is up to you. but you have to decide on a plan, not just a pile of cards.
While I don't appreciate your tone nor your disregard for my knowledge/opinions/etc... I understand your points and generally agree with most of them, as I have previously on this thread (I've been reading and posting to it for a while now). I'm not sure why it is you seem to think I am new to the deck or the game of Magic, but I can assure you, I've been playing this game a long time and I've been doing quite well with this deck since Fate Reforged came out. I may not have gotten around to testing every single card available for the archetype, but that doesn't mean that I am inexperienced with the deck nor that I don't understand how it works.
As for your over all tone and the "pile of cards" comment, I find them more than a little condescending, especially since you don't know me nor my background or knowledge base concerning Magic. I'm sure that if you go back a read some of MY previous posts you would realize that I am not the "idiotic noob" you seem to think I am. Your increasingly patronizing tone is not welcome nor called for.
I hope you take the time to read and understand where this thread of conversation veered off course as I have, and I hope we can agree to disagree on some of the finer details regarding the deck. It was never my intention to insult or insinuate a lack of understanding of the deck or the game, simply that you misread or misunderstood my statements. Here's to not having these types of misunderstandings in the future.
Please take the time to fully comprehend what it is you are responding to. I wasn't talking about Assault Formation at all, I was specifically referring to Shamanic Revelation and other things that neither build devotion, nor can be found with a Genesis Hydra.
As I have answered previously, in two different ways:
In this version you are trying to ramp as fast as possible and blast out mana to win, or refill your hand. The only thing the deck cares about is flooding the board pre-wipe and using Assault formation as early Defense + EOG mana sink for the win. Shamanic Revelation is tailor made for converting your Mana Dorks into cards-in-hand, refueling the machine for your next attempt to close the game.
In case you missed it, I am saying Assault Formation neccesitates the use of Shamanic Revelation. It seems counterintuitive in paper-theory but in practice it works. It is a green source of card draw that refils your hand while rewarding the use of many ramp creatures. This is essential to playing the deck like a ceareal-box combo, as consistancy of draws tend to slow down your ability to combo out.
No. You cant play Shamanic Revelation off Hydra. You use card draw as an alternate source of additional cards in PLACE of hydra. Playing the deck this way also has another corresponding benefit. you can play hydra for less (sometimes neccesary in early turns) and hope to net a smaller permanent, typically a ramp creature.
I hope you take the time to read and understand where this thread of conversation veered off course as I have, and I hope we can agree to disagree on some of the finer details regarding the deck. It was never my intention to insult or insinuate a lack of understanding of the deck or the game, simply that you misread or misunderstood my statements. Here's to not having these types of misunderstandings in the future.
You seem to enjoy repeatedly "talking down" to a respondant in a condescending tone, and in doing so criticize them for "talking down" to you. I find it irksome and, just like you, I don't enjoy being "talked down to". Turnabout is fair play in my book. However, I will not be bothered to reply again until something of value has been added to this thread. Until then, I highly recommend putting in some testing. Tappedout.net and Untapped.in are great places to do so easily.
Feel free to actually try some decklists that don't make sense to you before you post another commentary about someone else's work that you haven't bothered to comprehend or test. Lastly, I highly recommend that you be mindful of your own tone before taking offense to that of others.
I'd like to take a version of this to Gameday against a meta that is almost entirely going to be midrange with a few aggro decks mixed in. I am having a hard time finding a recent list in this thread that focuses on the combo, can someone point me to one? I am not interested in doing things like playing assault formation etc. I just want to assemble the combo as fast as possible against a field that will be light on removal.
used this list for the last 3 weeks and i've won all 3 FNMs. The list is golden, super solid and has multiple angles of win.
new: i've cut the playset of eidolon of blossom entirely: yeah the card draw it's awesome but I don't need it on a 2/2 body at 4CMC.
the 3 copies of xenagos, the reveler are here to help against control and with +1 he helps combo a lot. Crater's claw is here like another win-condition, and it's absolutely amazing.
Is this still a decent list? Any recent changes to the board or main? I really like the xenagos, he's seems pretty relevant in the format (to go over other decks and pressure control) and works well with the deck in general (building devotion usually involves creatures. )
Your side isn't showing up for me except in the draft screen, but it looks like its a couple cards short.
Since this is the official ascendancy combo thread I'm going to post this here, I'm sorry if I'm discussing a few tweaks that others may have already mentioned or used, but i scanned back through all the way to march and didn't see any mention of a lot of these so here is my current list.
SO I've been on temur ascendancy for the last few months, ever since I watched the coverage of the invitational and saw the potential it had, this is my latest iteration of the deck and I feel as though it is a significant improvement over the lists that most others are running, and it all hinges around the innovation that Ben Stark first demonstrated in his R/W midrange list by playing a complete playset of outpost siege in the main. Everyone who has played me or watched me play this iteration of the deck over the last month has been thoroughly impressed at the power, and non-interactive ability that this affords the combo, and it plays out similarly like this.
1. set up the combo per usual (1 sabertooth, 1 ascendancy, 1 nykthos, 1 voyaging satyr, 7 devotion, any other 4 power creature to draw through your deck)
2. Go off. make infinite mana
3. Draw/ Genesis Hydra for your entire deck
4. cast/put into play an outpost siege naming "dragons"
5. bounce a mana dork and as it leaves play direct the trigger at your opponent, their board.
The reason that this version of the combo has been so much more effective for me is because of the versatility that outpost siege offers the deck, being able to accelerate into it on turn 3 is impressive, and it has the ability to turn your Genesis Hydra into an even better value engine. You actually are afforded the luxury of only needing to cast an outpost siege on dragons once, so the first three you draw into/find can be safely set on khans, and of course you can still just draw out your entire deck and monstrous polukranos as usual to win as usual. It is an incredible engine as I've noticed that this deck also suffers from the same issues that plague all ramp decks, bad topdecks,and wrath effects, being able to draw an extra one or worse two cards a turn changes the equation greatly for this list.
Other notable mentions for the deck include deathmist raptor as a 4-of to help round out the curve, previously this deck had severe issues with RW midrange and honestly still does, but since several red decks are moving to wild slash instead of lightning strike gains additional value along with being able to trade up with rhino, sidisi, and tasigur when you're trying to establish your board, as well as trading on par with rabblemaster and seeker of the way when needed.
If you're interested in playing a version of green devotion that can do more than just clogup the ground I encourage you to play this deck.
I'm still using basically the same build from February. I think the meta might have a few more dragons, a few fewer board wipes, so I might replace Whisperwood with Arbor Colossus. The Reviving Melody in the sideboard is because I'm worried about Dromoka's Command wiping out the Ascendancy.
I'm still using basically the same build from February. I think the meta might have a few more dragons, a few fewer board wipes, so I might replace Whisperwood with Arbor Colossus. The Reviving Melody in the sideboard is because I'm worried about Dromoka's Command wiping out the Ascendancy.
I wouldn't worry very much about dromoka's command. While it can really hamper your ability to combo off, it's also incredibly easy to play around the sacrifice enchantment mode. Against the decks that play it however, we're the faster devotion deck, being able to pile on more threats than most of the G/W decks that want to focus on activating their mastery to take over the board. In an odd way as well we still have a better long-term gameplan than they do, they can at best monstrous a polukranos and attempt to wipe out our board, but because we run 4x temur sabertooth to their one, we're more likely to be able to use it for the utility and synergy it offers with whisperwood elemental.
Long story short, I like it as a one-of in the side, but I think it's fine to cut both of them in favor of more high impact cards. I understand that it's fine when you have the devotion engine going to use it and play whatever you return in the same turn, but in that scenario, it may just be better to keep deploying threats and challenge their ability to keep up with you. I do however really like the abzan beastmaster as a 1-of out of the side, most decks will have to typically remove him at a loss of tempo or risk letting us set up a board-state where we can draw several cards off of him.
So sadly we did not have enough people to play in last night's FNM, attendance has been getting spotty this close to the end of the school year. However, I did gain some very useful testing info, I was trying to decide if i wanted to play esper dragon control or ascendancy combo for gameday, and so far, I've settled on ascendancy combo, the control matchup is not as bad as it used to be thanks to the presence of display of dominance out of the sideboard, it kills Ashiok dead the turn it comes down, and can protect your key threats from removal. As usual Whisperwood Elemental is an all-star in this matchup, the trick is applying just enough pressure via, courser/deathmist/dorks to force them to tap out for either a wrath effect, or an icefall regeant, once that's happened you can nykthos and put on an incredible amount of pressure by casting a whisperwood elemental or an outpost siege.
One last usefull bit of information for those who may consider playing the outpost siege list. Having an outpost siege on khans, and a courser in play with a fetch is incredible, you do have the option to respond to you triggers between each one. For example, last night, I had two sieges on khans, and a courser with a fetch. Deathmist was the top of the deck so I allowed the trigger to resolve normally, the second card was frontier bivouac so in response to the outpost trigger I fetched and then revealed a whisperwood elemental on top, and finally I drew another deathmist for the turn. These kinds of interactions are what allow you to squeeze out the tiniest extra amount of percentage points in each matchup.
Slightly off-topic, but hoping to get attention from early participants in the thread.
The original deck (pre Sabertooth) used huge mana to power giant Villainous Wealths which would give you hasty creatures thanks to Temur Ascendancy. Perhaps the rise of Esper Dragons adds a value to that deck plan again. Specifically, I mean the card is not dead against them. You will pick up dragons and answers like Foul-tongue invocation and Crux of Fate (dragons). Further, Den Protector will let you cast it a second time. Anybody interested in a new thread to pursue this card?
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Yes, I nearly forgot about all those problems. I'm currently on G/U devotion and I find it creates enough pressure that control players struggle to take control. After I counter their Dig Through Time and Crux of Fate, and buy back Deathmist Raptor with a Whisperwood manifest, they resort to dragons just to survive. That's when a Villainous Wealth could clinch it. Ugin is vulnerable to counters and morphs. Anyhow, this is another deck entirely from the current thread so I'll move on.
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Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Temur Ascendancy - No Temur Ascendancy in the deck. As mentioned by a previous poster, Hammer of Purphoros has an identical ability in a single color, with instead of conditional card draw, the ability to turn excess land into creatures. Replacing this allows me to pull all of the blue producing lands out of the mana base, making it much more stable.
Purphoros, God of the Forge - Again, with repeated reuse of creatures through Sabertooth, Purphoros's triggers can quickly get out of hand. Also can push Den Protector's Power up, letting it slip by some creatures that normally it wouldn't.
Crater's Claws is a non-interactive way to provide reach against players and removal for most creatures. It also nicely serves as an immediate win should the combo show up.
Xenagos, the Reveler is in the deck since he provides a must answer problem for most control decks while advancing our own plan using his ramp and token generation.
I'm hoping to test this out this Friday to see how it runs. Conceptually, it's a midrange deck built around Sabertooth, the lynchpin of the Temur Ascendancy deck. By being able to re-use all of the triggers from Den Protector, Hornet Queen, Purphoros, Colossus, Hydra, and Polukranos, and protect them, it should bury unprepared decks in too much card advantage.
Any ideas on updating it with Dragons of Tarkir cards? So far all I can think is to put a couple Display of Dominance into the sideboard. Maybe I could remove Boon Satyrs for Deathmist Raptors, which would mean I should cut out Eidolon of Blossoms and put in Den Protectors? But raptors don't trigger ascendancy so . . . I'm not sure.
Do you think it can still hold its own against various Dragon decks out there?
Seems like a good list. Experience shows Nylea is completely unneeded. So i would make that a Colossus. Beastmaster seems like a waste of a card. I would prefer Den Protector if you want another early play. (Recover an Ascendancy, etc.)
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
I made it to the top four of a 26-person IQ. Along the way I faced:
Abzan Midrange - I'd been away from the game for a month, and hadn't seen the power of Chris Pratt and his Raptor Posse. Wowza. But he got a little mana screwed, and I chained Genesis Hydras into Polukranos, World Eater into wiping his board. 2-0.
Atarka Red Aggro - Close games where he only needed 1 or 2 lands to nearly wreck me, but a single Hornet Nest got me enough breathing room to turn the tide. 2-1.
Abzan Midrange - I didn't get so lucky this time, and my combo didn't come together. 0-2.
Jeskai Rabblemaster Aggro - Two Arbor Colossi never showed up in three games, so he beat me repeatedly with Mantis Rider. Game one was his. Game two I smashed in fast with hasty hydras. Game three I dropped a Hornet Nest to stall then got the Temur Sabertooth-Nylea's Disciple engine to gain a total of 25 life over three uses. He got dual Rabblemasters and Hordeling Outburst. He swung in with Mantis Rider, both rabblemasters, 7 goblin tokens, and three Seekers of the Way, forcing me to chump a lot; and then he Magma Jetted the nest so I only got two tokens, played Jeskai Charm to pump his field and give them lifelink, and hopped up to something like 50 life.
I survived, but we went to turns, and despite a huge Polukranos eating his field, I wasn't able to close out the game. Draw. 1-1-1.
Not Sure - Chromantiflayer? - I felt like kind of an ********. My opponent fetched a few times and put up Satyr Wayfinder, Courser, and Tasigur by turn 4. I got off the infinite combo turn 5. We spent a few minutes sideboarding. He got two Coursers out, then a Whip of Erebos (but his deck had all five colors). I comboed off on turn five again. It wasn't really an interactive game. 2-0.
I made it into the top 8 with 3-1-1. The offer was made to split 8 ways, and my opponent (the first seed) refused. So we played.
White-Green Collected Company (or as I tried to call it, DromoCoCo) - Game one he got off Mastery of the Unseen and chained Den Protectors, Deathmists, and Dromoka's Commands. It took a while, but he put me down. Game two I smashed in Elvish Mystic > Voyaging Satyr > Courser > Genesis Hydra into Temur Ascendancy > Genesis Hydra into Polukranos. Game three went LOOOOONG, but Hornet Nest fended him off, Whisperwood Elemental and Sabertooth dampened the value of Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and finally on turn 10 I found a Nykthos and tore him to pieces.
My opponent, seeing the combo, asks if I actually want to go to the Invitational.
Now, everyone else had finished their matches. It was a friend of mine and two guys who are regulars at the store. I wish someone had explained that they were willing to split prizes and give the actual invitation to my friend. If I'd known that, I would have just beaten the guy and we could have ended it. But instead I got boneheadedly altruistic, and said, "Well, I won't go if I win. I'm not making an offer, but if you feel like showing any gratitude, it'd be cool not to miss out on what I would get from a top-four place. That said, I'll concede to you."
I admit, this was a silly thing for me to do. I didn't remember I was missing out on 90 bucks worth of cash and product.
He proceeded to lose to my friend in the finals, then left in a hurry and took his prizes. Kind of unappreciative, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he just didn't understand my oblique request for prizes. My friend, who just cared about going to the tournament, gave me his packs, which was super cool of him. I'll tell myself that I made top four, even though I clearly should have just taken the win and let us all go home early. Ah well.
Please take the time to fully comprehend what it is you are responding to. I wasn't talking about Assault Formation at all, I was specifically referring to Shamanic Revelation and other things that neither build devotion, nor can be found with a Genesis Hydra.
I have yet to test Assault Formation, but I do worry about potentially decreasing the number of threats in the deck, especially since Assault Formation is asking for the exact opposite of Temur Ascendancy. I think Assault Formation and Temur Ascendancy are asking you to build very different decks around them, that's not to say they can't work together, and Assault Formation may be great, but at least in my current build, the only creatures that benefit from it are Courser of Kruphix (3), Sylvan Caryatid (2) and Karametra's Acolyte (1). Its entirely possible that Assault Formation is so good I would want to warp my deck around it, but that will only come with more testing.
Presenting:
MONSTER COMBO!!!
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Frontier Bivouac
3 Temple of Abandon
4 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Karametra's Acolyte
3 Den Protector
3 Temur Sabertooth
3 Boon Satyr
3 Genesis Hydra
3 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Hornet Queen
3 Temur Ascendancy
2 Singing Bell Strike
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Encase in Ice
3 Hornet Nest
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Reclemation Sage
1 Display of Dominance
1 Harbinger of the Hunt
3 Nylea's Disciple
Notable interactions:
Constellation/Ascendancy Draw power- With 12 enchantments and 11 to 14 four power creatures.
Going Aggro - Den Protector/Bestow Boon Satyr or Surrak's Formidable Ability
All Permanent - High percentage to hit with Genesis Hydra.
Trick interaction - Turn 1 Mystic into turn 2 facedown Den Protector, turn 3 morphed the Protector and get a used fetch land use again
Modern = RBW Aristocrats (Here's the primer thread I made!)
BGW Endless Renewal ( The primer right here! )
Legacy = UB Stiflenought
Please feel free to take your own advice on this one. I HAVE tested the deck extensively. I was one of the first people to be working on this deck before it was spoiled on SCG. In fact, I have been refining this deck with Kaevyn since it was a ramp-shell pushing Villainous wealth.
If you can't be bothered to read what I have previously written, and you can't be bothered to test for yourself I will state this as plainly as I can. Ramp Formation should ONLY be run in the COMBO-ONLY orientation of the build and SHOULD be run with a low land count, lots of ramp creatures, and should include Shamanic Revelation. Here is a mock up of that deck if you would like to test it yourself. In this version you are trying to ramp as fast as possible and blast out mana to win, or refill your hand. The only thing the deck cares about is flooding the board pre-wipe and using Assault formation as early Defense + EOG mana sink for the win. Shamanic Revelation is tailor made for converting your Mana Dorks into cards-in-hand, refueling the machine for your next attempt to close the game.
That said, I believe that RAMP-AGGRO is a better build. Here is a mock up of THAT deck if you would like to test it. This deck plays a more traditional game gaining slow advantage until you can win outright, OR assembling the combo to win out of nowhere. Neither Assault Formation nor Shamanic Revelation is used here because you are planning on building advantage slowly -- the turns you would normally want to play assault formation, you want to play fatter better creatures than your opponent, and usually go to the face with fliers. in even the worst board states, you can clog the battlefield and buy time to assemble the combo to win.
This is why I have said in the past, this deck has diverged. Whichever way you want to build it is up to you. but you have to decide on a plan, not just a pile of cards.
Do you want to play Breakfast-Cereal* combo? Ramp Formation
Do you want strong midgame synergy with late game inevitability? Sarkan Ascendancy
*While I was not able to find a good article about it, This archetype comes from older magic decks that played like a kid opening a box of sugary breakfast cereal -- pop the top and start digging for the toy in the bottom of the box.
I simply stated my opinion that cards like Shamanic Revelation are not good in the deck due to not being permanents that produce threats or devotion. Then, in a somewhat patronizing tone you respond thusly...
I then attempt to correct the misunderstanding using a similar tone to your own previous post. I defer to your judgement on Assault Formation because I don't have much experience with the card, though I do note my misgivings concerning it.
You then decide to insult me and talk down to me about how long you have worked on the deck and about how the deck works/changed/etc...
While I don't appreciate your tone nor your disregard for my knowledge/opinions/etc... I understand your points and generally agree with most of them, as I have previously on this thread (I've been reading and posting to it for a while now). I'm not sure why it is you seem to think I am new to the deck or the game of Magic, but I can assure you, I've been playing this game a long time and I've been doing quite well with this deck since Fate Reforged came out. I may not have gotten around to testing every single card available for the archetype, but that doesn't mean that I am inexperienced with the deck nor that I don't understand how it works.
As for your over all tone and the "pile of cards" comment, I find them more than a little condescending, especially since you don't know me nor my background or knowledge base concerning Magic. I'm sure that if you go back a read some of MY previous posts you would realize that I am not the "idiotic noob" you seem to think I am. Your increasingly patronizing tone is not welcome nor called for.
I hope you take the time to read and understand where this thread of conversation veered off course as I have, and I hope we can agree to disagree on some of the finer details regarding the deck. It was never my intention to insult or insinuate a lack of understanding of the deck or the game, simply that you misread or misunderstood my statements. Here's to not having these types of misunderstandings in the future.
RS
As I have answered previously, in two different ways:
In case you missed it, I am saying Assault Formation neccesitates the use of Shamanic Revelation. It seems counterintuitive in paper-theory but in practice it works. It is a green source of card draw that refils your hand while rewarding the use of many ramp creatures. This is essential to playing the deck like a ceareal-box combo, as consistancy of draws tend to slow down your ability to combo out.
No. You cant play Shamanic Revelation off Hydra. You use card draw as an alternate source of additional cards in PLACE of hydra. Playing the deck this way also has another corresponding benefit. you can play hydra for less (sometimes neccesary in early turns) and hope to net a smaller permanent, typically a ramp creature.
You seem to enjoy repeatedly "talking down" to a respondant in a condescending tone, and in doing so criticize them for "talking down" to you. I find it irksome and, just like you, I don't enjoy being "talked down to". Turnabout is fair play in my book. However, I will not be bothered to reply again until something of value has been added to this thread. Until then, I highly recommend putting in some testing. Tappedout.net and Untapped.in are great places to do so easily.
Feel free to actually try some decklists that don't make sense to you before you post another commentary about someone else's work that you haven't bothered to comprehend or test. Lastly, I highly recommend that you be mindful of your own tone before taking offense to that of others.
Thanks!
Is this still a decent list? Any recent changes to the board or main? I really like the xenagos, he's seems pretty relevant in the format (to go over other decks and pressure control) and works well with the deck in general (building devotion usually involves creatures. )
Your side isn't showing up for me except in the draft screen, but it looks like its a couple cards short.
This is what I see:
SB: 3 Nylea's Disciple
SB: 2 Reclamation Sage
SB: 4 Negate
SB: 2 Barrage of Boulders
SB: 2 Nissa, Worldwaker
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Mana Confluence
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Mountain
5 Forest
Creatures - 29
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Genesis Hydra
4 Temur Sabertooth
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Whisperwood Elemental
4 Deathmist Raptor
3 Temur Ascendancy
4 Outpost Siege
4 Nylea's Disciple
2 Display of Dominance
2 Setessan Tactics
2 Arbor Colossus
4 Negate
1 Skyreaping
SO I've been on temur ascendancy for the last few months, ever since I watched the coverage of the invitational and saw the potential it had, this is my latest iteration of the deck and I feel as though it is a significant improvement over the lists that most others are running, and it all hinges around the innovation that Ben Stark first demonstrated in his R/W midrange list by playing a complete playset of outpost siege in the main. Everyone who has played me or watched me play this iteration of the deck over the last month has been thoroughly impressed at the power, and non-interactive ability that this affords the combo, and it plays out similarly like this.
1. set up the combo per usual (1 sabertooth, 1 ascendancy, 1 nykthos, 1 voyaging satyr, 7 devotion, any other 4 power creature to draw through your deck)
2. Go off. make infinite mana
3. Draw/ Genesis Hydra for your entire deck
4. cast/put into play an outpost siege naming "dragons"
5. bounce a mana dork and as it leaves play direct the trigger at your opponent, their board.
The reason that this version of the combo has been so much more effective for me is because of the versatility that outpost siege offers the deck, being able to accelerate into it on turn 3 is impressive, and it has the ability to turn your Genesis Hydra into an even better value engine. You actually are afforded the luxury of only needing to cast an outpost siege on dragons once, so the first three you draw into/find can be safely set on khans, and of course you can still just draw out your entire deck and monstrous polukranos as usual to win as usual. It is an incredible engine as I've noticed that this deck also suffers from the same issues that plague all ramp decks, bad topdecks,and wrath effects, being able to draw an extra one or worse two cards a turn changes the equation greatly for this list.
Other notable mentions for the deck include deathmist raptor as a 4-of to help round out the curve, previously this deck had severe issues with RW midrange and honestly still does, but since several red decks are moving to wild slash instead of lightning strike gains additional value along with being able to trade up with rhino, sidisi, and tasigur when you're trying to establish your board, as well as trading on par with rabblemaster and seeker of the way when needed.
If you're interested in playing a version of green devotion that can do more than just clogup the ground I encourage you to play this deck.
3 Temur Ascendancy
CREATURES (34)
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voyaging Satyr
3 Boon Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Karametra's Acolyte
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Temur Sabertooth
2 Whisperwood Elemental
4 Genesis Hydra
6 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Mountain
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Temple of Mystery
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Yavimaya Coast
1 Abzan Beastmaster
1 Arbor Colossus
1 Hornet Nest
2 Negate
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Nylea's Disciple
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Reviving Melody
2 Setessan Tactics
I wouldn't worry very much about dromoka's command. While it can really hamper your ability to combo off, it's also incredibly easy to play around the sacrifice enchantment mode. Against the decks that play it however, we're the faster devotion deck, being able to pile on more threats than most of the G/W decks that want to focus on activating their mastery to take over the board. In an odd way as well we still have a better long-term gameplan than they do, they can at best monstrous a polukranos and attempt to wipe out our board, but because we run 4x temur sabertooth to their one, we're more likely to be able to use it for the utility and synergy it offers with whisperwood elemental.
Long story short, I like it as a one-of in the side, but I think it's fine to cut both of them in favor of more high impact cards. I understand that it's fine when you have the devotion engine going to use it and play whatever you return in the same turn, but in that scenario, it may just be better to keep deploying threats and challenge their ability to keep up with you. I do however really like the abzan beastmaster as a 1-of out of the side, most decks will have to typically remove him at a loss of tempo or risk letting us set up a board-state where we can draw several cards off of him.
One last usefull bit of information for those who may consider playing the outpost siege list. Having an outpost siege on khans, and a courser in play with a fetch is incredible, you do have the option to respond to you triggers between each one. For example, last night, I had two sieges on khans, and a courser with a fetch. Deathmist was the top of the deck so I allowed the trigger to resolve normally, the second card was frontier bivouac so in response to the outpost trigger I fetched and then revealed a whisperwood elemental on top, and finally I drew another deathmist for the turn. These kinds of interactions are what allow you to squeeze out the tiniest extra amount of percentage points in each matchup.
The original deck (pre Sabertooth) used huge mana to power giant Villainous Wealths which would give you hasty creatures thanks to Temur Ascendancy. Perhaps the rise of Esper Dragons adds a value to that deck plan again. Specifically, I mean the card is not dead against them. You will pick up dragons and answers like Foul-tongue invocation and Crux of Fate (dragons). Further, Den Protector will let you cast it a second time. Anybody interested in a new thread to pursue this card?
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Temple of Abandon
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
9 Forest
4 Mountain
CREATURES
3 Elvish Mystic
4 Den Protector
4 Voyaging Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Temur Sabertooth
3 Genesis Hydra
2 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Arbor Colossus
1 Hornet Queen
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Outpost Siege
2 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Crater's Claws
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
A couple of card choices-
Temur Ascendancy - No Temur Ascendancy in the deck. As mentioned by a previous poster, Hammer of Purphoros has an identical ability in a single color, with instead of conditional card draw, the ability to turn excess land into creatures. Replacing this allows me to pull all of the blue producing lands out of the mana base, making it much more stable.
Outpost Siege - Excellent card draw engine, with the added synergy between the Dragons ability and Temur Sabertooth
Den Protector - The reborn Eternal Witness does a lot of heavy lifting here, able to work with Temur Sabertooth to rebuy anything in the deck over and over.
Purphoros, God of the Forge - Again, with repeated reuse of creatures through Sabertooth, Purphoros's triggers can quickly get out of hand. Also can push Den Protector's Power up, letting it slip by some creatures that normally it wouldn't.
Crater's Claws is a non-interactive way to provide reach against players and removal for most creatures. It also nicely serves as an immediate win should the combo show up.
Xenagos, the Reveler is in the deck since he provides a must answer problem for most control decks while advancing our own plan using his ramp and token generation.
I'm hoping to test this out this Friday to see how it runs. Conceptually, it's a midrange deck built around Sabertooth, the lynchpin of the Temur Ascendancy deck. By being able to re-use all of the triggers from Den Protector, Hornet Queen, Purphoros, Colossus, Hydra, and Polukranos, and protect them, it should bury unprepared decks in too much card advantage.
Any thoughts or suggestions?
3 Temur Ascendancy
CREATURES (34)
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voyaging Satyr
3 Boon Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Karametra's Acolyte
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Temur Sabertooth
2 Whisperwood Elemental
4 Genesis Hydra
6 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Mountain
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Temple of Mystery
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Yavimaya Coast
2 Abzan Beastmaster
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Display of Dominance
3 Hornet Nest
2 Negate
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Nylea's Disciple
Any ideas on updating it with Dragons of Tarkir cards? So far all I can think is to put a couple Display of Dominance into the sideboard. Maybe I could remove Boon Satyrs for Deathmist Raptors, which would mean I should cut out Eidolon of Blossoms and put in Den Protectors? But raptors don't trigger ascendancy so . . . I'm not sure.
Do you think it can still hold its own against various Dragon decks out there?
BWTokens
GCollected Stompany
BWGUSeance Insanity
URUR Bloo
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
I think I agree about Nylea and Arbor Colossus, though I might keep her in the sideboard. She's handy against Elspeth.
Abzan Midrange - I'd been away from the game for a month, and hadn't seen the power of Chris Pratt and his Raptor Posse. Wowza. But he got a little mana screwed, and I chained Genesis Hydras into Polukranos, World Eater into wiping his board. 2-0.
Atarka Red Aggro - Close games where he only needed 1 or 2 lands to nearly wreck me, but a single Hornet Nest got me enough breathing room to turn the tide. 2-1.
Abzan Midrange - I didn't get so lucky this time, and my combo didn't come together. 0-2.
Jeskai Rabblemaster Aggro - Two Arbor Colossi never showed up in three games, so he beat me repeatedly with Mantis Rider. Game one was his. Game two I smashed in fast with hasty hydras. Game three I dropped a Hornet Nest to stall then got the Temur Sabertooth-Nylea's Disciple engine to gain a total of 25 life over three uses. He got dual Rabblemasters and Hordeling Outburst. He swung in with Mantis Rider, both rabblemasters, 7 goblin tokens, and three Seekers of the Way, forcing me to chump a lot; and then he Magma Jetted the nest so I only got two tokens, played Jeskai Charm to pump his field and give them lifelink, and hopped up to something like 50 life.
I survived, but we went to turns, and despite a huge Polukranos eating his field, I wasn't able to close out the game. Draw. 1-1-1.
Not Sure - Chromantiflayer? - I felt like kind of an ********. My opponent fetched a few times and put up Satyr Wayfinder, Courser, and Tasigur by turn 4. I got off the infinite combo turn 5. We spent a few minutes sideboarding. He got two Coursers out, then a Whip of Erebos (but his deck had all five colors). I comboed off on turn five again. It wasn't really an interactive game. 2-0.
I made it into the top 8 with 3-1-1. The offer was made to split 8 ways, and my opponent (the first seed) refused. So we played.
White-Green Collected Company (or as I tried to call it, DromoCoCo) - Game one he got off Mastery of the Unseen and chained Den Protectors, Deathmists, and Dromoka's Commands. It took a while, but he put me down. Game two I smashed in Elvish Mystic > Voyaging Satyr > Courser > Genesis Hydra into Temur Ascendancy > Genesis Hydra into Polukranos. Game three went LOOOOONG, but Hornet Nest fended him off, Whisperwood Elemental and Sabertooth dampened the value of Elspeth, Sun's Champion, and finally on turn 10 I found a Nykthos and tore him to pieces.
My opponent, seeing the combo, asks if I actually want to go to the Invitational.
Now, everyone else had finished their matches. It was a friend of mine and two guys who are regulars at the store. I wish someone had explained that they were willing to split prizes and give the actual invitation to my friend. If I'd known that, I would have just beaten the guy and we could have ended it. But instead I got boneheadedly altruistic, and said, "Well, I won't go if I win. I'm not making an offer, but if you feel like showing any gratitude, it'd be cool not to miss out on what I would get from a top-four place. That said, I'll concede to you."
I admit, this was a silly thing for me to do. I didn't remember I was missing out on 90 bucks worth of cash and product.
He proceeded to lose to my friend in the finals, then left in a hurry and took his prizes. Kind of unappreciative, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he just didn't understand my oblique request for prizes. My friend, who just cared about going to the tournament, gave me his packs, which was super cool of him. I'll tell myself that I made top four, even though I clearly should have just taken the win and let us all go home early. Ah well.
The deck is still fun, though.
3 Temur Ascendancy
CREATURES (34)
4 Elvish Mystic
2 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Voyaging Satyr
3 Boon Satyr
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Karametra's Acolyte
2 Polukranos, World Eater
4 Temur Sabertooth
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Whisperwood Elemental
4 Genesis Hydra
6 Forest
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Mountain
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Temple of Mystery
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Yavimaya Coast
1 Abzan Beastmaster
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Display of Dominance
3 Hornet Nest
2 Negate
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
3 Nylea's Disciple
2 Windstorm
Dromoka's Command f***s us up real good, though, so if you have suggestions for changes, let me know.