I use one Learn from the Past and one Bow so I can use the bow to bury Learn from the Past. Bow doubles as lifegain and puts counters on dudes if I have them which is nice and imo better than the second Learn from the Past.
Edit: I'd like to also point out that in all my games I have never been required to Learn from the Past more than once to win. Idk if you've experienced otherwise, but I've found this to be the case.
Oh, I generally don't have to fire it off more than once. I just like the flexibility of recycling stuff I've used (and delving away what I don't want to reuse with Dig Through Time). I'll admit the lifegain would be useful, but I don't actually run any creatures or ways to create tokens in my 75 at all.
Makes sense then. Part of the reason I opted for a creatureless build is it allowed me to blank a lot of removal. For a while, I was running Kiora, but I found the lack of creatures actually made her pretty terrible, since playing her against most opponents generally resulted in her being immediately removed, since there were no other outlets for removal.
I decided to give a singleton Bow of Nylea a try in the maindeck (in the place of the awkward singleton Banishing Light), and I like it so far, so thanks for the suggestion! I've also added some Nyx-Fleece Ram to the sideboard for Mono-Red, so the counter-adding ability isn't a complete blank.
The only troubles I see with Horizon Chimera are that if they burn it immediately, it was just an inefficient one-for-one, and it can't earn you any life until turn 5. Assuming you have one Dictate down, it only catches up to Nyx-Fleece Ram on turn 6, surpassing Ram on turn 7. (Assuming you dropped Ram "on time" on t2, which is admittedly difficult if white is merely a splash.) Bow, by comparison, lands earlier, can't be burned out, and earns more life than Chimera can unless you have out double Dictate or resolve a Fascination - albeit at the cost of a recurring mana investment. If you have enough white to make Ram a reasonable play, I think it's somewhat better because if they tap out you can block profitably, and it gives you the ability to block-and-fog for added protection in case they have Wild Slash to counter a fog.
The best, I think, is Bow PLUS Chimera. Wait for them to tap out before dropping Chimera, so you can get at least two life out of it and untap. Then you can threaten to pump it with Bow in response to burn, meaning they at least need to use something better than Wild Slash if they want to kill it. Bow plus Ram is pretty good too, since a 1/6 body is hard to kill plus can actually kill things occasionally.
Bow of Nylea and Resolute Archangel both pulled a lot of weight, so thanks for the tips there! My only other issue is that I need to smooth out my manabase some. The last round of Swiss was win-and-in for Top 8, and I died in game 3 to a Rabblemaster and a slew of tokens with End Hostilities in my hand and only one white source. Given that I was sitting at 18 life and he had no cards in his hand, sweeping the board there would have sealed the game for me.
Went to a GPT this weekend. Didn't make Top 8, but ended up at the top of the non-top 8 players with this list:
Uhh, no Clocks main? You mean you actually just milled most opponents out with Dictates?? That's pretty impressive. I would expect more losses to burn with that plan. Were there not many burn decks? Did you ever wish you had a second Bow to ensure getting it early against burn?
Also, how did the Displays of Dominance perform against Ashioks?
Glad to hear it! I'm wondering also how the wrath mix went for you. I prefer to run all-Waves and Spouts because, while they're worse against Rhinos and a few other creatures, they're phenomenal against most of the rest of the field, and they both allow you to reset your own Archangel in a pinch. Aside from Rhino, are there any other situations where you are much happier drawing End Hostilities rather than Spouts or Wave?
Did you test the Fascinations that some are running and just reject them, or decide against them for some other reason? I'm currently running only one alongside Kruphix, but the singleton has been occasionally awesome.
Love the heavy permission package. Can you explain exactly what your sideboarding strategy was?
If you go white I think it's correct to play End Hostilities in some number... atleast 2. It kills aura's attached which is nice and makes it so they don't just jam haste guys. When you do that though you have to skew your manabase towards more white and blue then more white and green. Also not playing Elspeth is a mistake if you're white imo. One (wo)man turbo fog machine that can win the game for you.
If you go white I think it's correct to play End Hostilities in some number... atleast 2. It kills aura's attached which is nice and makes it so they don't just jam haste guys.
I get the auras thing, which is great against Bestows (not that many run them right now). But I don't get how it prevents hasters? EH is sorcery, they can untap and throw some Dash guys at you or Kolaghan or Sarkhan, etc., etc. Aetherspouts is instant and you get to untap BEFORE they get another attack step. Also, both Spouts and Wave can clear Heroic's board, which is not likely with EH since they typically just use an instant to grant indestructible to their best threat.
I really don't use Wave / Spouts as permanent solutions to problems but as "big fogs" that buy me more breathing room and allow me to counter specific creatures on recast. Wave's 1 mana cost savings over EH is really important, especially if you run Bant which likely involves more taplands than Simic lists. The risk of not having an untap land (basic or fetch) on t5 is significant and can easily be game over. Even if you're right on curve, EH can simply be too slow to save you against a very good hand from red or Heroic if they are on the play. Turn four is not when we want to start casting our fogs, Wave allows us what is sometimes two turns' breathing room (since the added cards from Dictate have not necessarily converted into added mana for the opponent yet by this point). Later in the game, Wave is less meaningful since they can probably just cast a lethal-power army with available mana. But on turn four, Wave buys critical time to set up. It allows t5 Bow + Fog or Bow activation mana up, or it allows Clock + Counter mana up, where those plays would previously be impossible b/c t5 would be EH time. The downside (terrible against Rhino, weak against haste / Rabblemaster) is IMO made up for by the cheapness. It's also nice when you face Jeskai and their first few turns are token spells and you get to sweep them with Wave. I've had Jeskai players look at my mana, see I'm not going to have five on my next turn, and tap out for Hordeling Outburst to follow their Raise the Alarm. People forget Whelming Wave exists. I've had plenty of opponents grab it from me and read it in shock. We should capitalize on that more.
It's also pretty hilarious with the singleton Stormtide Leviathan sideboard plan...
When you do that though you have to skew your manabase towards more white and blue then more white and green. Also not playing Elspeth is a mistake if you're white imo. One (wo)man turbo fog machine that can win the game for you.
I like the idea of maybe a singleton Elspeth, to go along with the PLA and a couple other options. A deck like this, with such massive draw power, can afford to run two or three singleton win-conditions that are very different from one another, so we can use whichever one works best in a given m/u. I agree that the more double-white spells we add, the harder our mana base gets to build. Elspeth is fine since you're not going to want to drop her without counter backup in most cases (Hero's Downfall is still a card and will be hungry for a target after our not playing any creatures), which means nine mana. Getting to two white by turn nine is not difficult. Getting to two white by turn five for EH, now that's the thing that strains the mana base. Which is the other reason I'm not so hot on EH these days. I run only a small white splash but supporting a singleton Archangel, a singleton Elspeth, and a few Rams and Banishing Lights in the board is very doable and I rarely lack for blue and green.
I think the main benefit to running a couple End Hostilities is that you don't bounce a bunch of haste dudes back in there hand to slam you again or Seige Rhino's. What I'm saying is I'd probably run 2 main 2 side of End Hostilities and I'd still run the Whelming Waves and Aetherspouts.
My favorite wincon is still mill. I agree about Elspeth just dieing to a removal but you can always sideboard it if you're worried. I play 3 Negates 2 dissolve main and typically prefer to save it for permanent destruction and planeswalkers.
Went to a GPT this weekend. Didn't make Top 8, but ended up at the top of the non-top 8 players with this list:
Uhh, no Clocks main? You mean you actually just milled most opponents out with Dictates?? That's pretty impressive. I would expect more losses to burn with that plan. Were there not many burn decks? Did you ever wish you had a second Bow to ensure getting it early against burn?
Also, how did the Displays of Dominance perform against Ashioks?
Glad to hear it! I'm wondering also how the wrath mix went for you. I prefer to run all-Waves and Spouts because, while they're worse against Rhinos and a few other creatures, they're phenomenal against most of the rest of the field, and they both allow you to reset your own Archangel in a pinch. Aside from Rhino, are there any other situations where you are much happier drawing End Hostilities rather than Spouts or Wave?
Did you test the Fascinations that some are running and just reject them, or decide against them for some other reason? I'm currently running only one alongside Kruphix, but the singleton has been occasionally awesome.
Love the heavy permission package. Can you explain exactly what your sideboarding strategy was?
Yes, I actually just milled my opponents out with Dictates. It was a relatively small GPT, though. R1 was v Esper Dragons, R2 was v Mardu Dragons, R3 v some Mardu brew, and R4 was v RDW/Burn. I never ended up wishing I had a second Bow, and if I wanted to add Grindclocks main, I definitely wouldn't know what to cut to make room for another Bow as well. Adding a second Bow would also stretch my mana, since I have to hit WW for End Hostilities and UU for the permission package. I still have the two Radiant Fountains that I could cut, and I may end up replacing them with ETB tapped gain lands before Providence.
I actually didn't see any Ashioks, and now that I'm running white for Banishing Light, I may end up cutting Display of Dominance. I can say that I liked them back when I wasn't running white, though. I'm generally happier running End Hostilities against Rabblemaster and Stormbreath/Mantis Rider as well - for Rabblemaster, the damage from them builds up over time, and the first turn or two generally isn't worth blowing a fog on, but still causes damage to build up over time. For Stormbreath/Mantis Rider, I just want to get that guy out of there. Aetherspouts/Whelming Wave just don't do enough against them, and can actually be worth for Stormbreath if you end up resetting monstrous. That said, Wave/Spouts is excellent v Abzan decks if you don't have Siege Rhino to worry about, since Rakshasa Deathdealer and Fleecemane Lion can just ignore the wraths.
I wasn't excited by Fascination. I haven't actually tested them, but I don't like that they're sorcery-speed and leave me more prone to tapping out (and I also don't want to run Kruphix, since I'll have to give up permission slots).
If you go white I think it's correct to play End Hostilities in some number... atleast 2. It kills aura's attached which is nice and makes it so they don't just jam haste guys. When you do that though you have to skew your manabase towards more white and blue then more white and green. Also not playing Elspeth is a mistake if you're white imo. One (wo)man turbo fog machine that can win the game for you.
I'm considering testing an Elspeth or two (probably in the side in lieu of the Displays). I definitely don't want her main, since I like the idea of my opponents boarding out removal after G1 that would otherwise leave her prone to a quick death. I have ended up skewing my mana base more towards white, and I feel like End Hostilities is worth it. With the exception of the Bow, I don't have any GG requirements, and if I'm already gunning for the mana for End Hostilities, I can see Elspeth coming in too.
Sideboarding strategies:
V RDW-style decks:
I brought in the three Nyx-Fleece Ram and the Resolute Archangel, taking out Disdainful Stroke, one Negate, the Whelming Wave (this may be incorrect) and something else. The Archangel ended up maybe being too slow, but I never actually drew it anyways. The Stroke doesn't really hit much in this deck, so I found it to be worthless, and I found Negate to be awkward in multiples. Whelming Wave was taken out because I just didn't like to hit Rabblemaster, but I'd leave it in if it's a more token-oriented build.
V Abzan:
I would change basically nothing (I'd bring in Elspeths if I ran them, probably taking out a Negate and maybe the Bow - I don't think it's needed in this matchup). The only noncreature spell I really care about is Thoughtseize here, and I think that this is the deck I like facing most out of the major players in Standard.
Esper Dragons:
I like bringing in the Banishing Lights here, since they tend to have more problem permanents - Ashiok, Narset - and the dragons they recur are also issues. I've also seen some Risen Executioners out of sideboards and those can't just be wrathed away. I'd probably go +2 Banishing Light +3 Gainsay, -1 Disdainful Stroke, -1 Aetherspouts, -2 fogs, -1 Bow of Nylea. I'd probably leave out one of the Banishing Lights and leave the Aetherspouts in if it's a U/B build, since you can't use BL on Silumgar, the Drifting Death.
Mardu Dragons:
Resolute Archangel is huge here, and this is a matchup I'd probably want Elspeth in. Bring in Archangel and Elspeth, take out Whelming Wave, one Negate, maybe something else?
Those are the main things I found to be effective.
I mean, I generally don't want to be casting End Hostilities on turn 5, but you make a valid point. I also definitely want some gain lands if I'm cutting the Fountains (which I did do last night). Right now I'm at:
I think the main benefit to running a couple End Hostilities is that you don't bounce a bunch of haste dudes back in there hand to slam you again or Seige Rhino's. What I'm saying is I'd probably run 2 main 2 side of End Hostilities and I'd still run the Whelming Waves and Aetherspouts.
I still don't see how Aetherspouts fails against hasters. Even if they have the mana to recast a new army of hasters same turn as your Spouts, they've already used up their attack step, so the heat is still off for a turn. By comparison, Dictate feeds them extra attackers. All they need to cast is a lethal army, they can hold the rest and just plop lands until you End. Then they untap, cast a hasty army and swing. If you tapped out for that EH, you're dead. So Spouts serves as both a wrath and a fog, thanks to being instant speed.
I have also tested Fated Retribution in a more white-heavy list as a two-of. Lategame it's pretty sick, most have forgotten the card exists, and paying for it is easier with Kruphix. But I'm trending away from the heavy white investment so I've dropped Fated R.
I would probably run 3 Spouts, 2 Waves, and 2 EH in the board, to bring in against decks where Wave is terrible.
Yes, I actually just milled my opponents out with Dictates.
Either you are much better at t-fog than me or you had some luck on your side. Milling out via draw only means in sideboarded games you are guaranteeing your opponent will draw every sideboard one-of they might bring in against you. That's pretty ballsy! I'm happy to have Dictates do much of the heavy lifting, but if my goal is millout I prefer to give it a boost with Clocks.
I actually didn't see any Ashioks, and now that I'm running white for Banishing Light, I may end up cutting Display of Dominance.
Agree with this. Ashiok was really the top card DoD was for and B-L can handle her. So can Gainsay and Negate, if you have an untapped land on t2.
I wasn't excited by Fascination. I haven't actually tested them, but I don't like that they're sorcery-speed and leave me more prone to tapping out (and I also don't want to run Kruphix, since I'll have to give up permission slots).
Fair enough. I'm thinking of dropping Kruphix myself, as the hand size thing is rarely crucial (plus discarding helps me pay for Dig), and the mana-storage thing is also rarely useful as I'm running a more land-light version now anyway, so I don't have as much excess mana sitting around. Without Kruphix, Fascination would probably get the boot as well. The sorcery speed is a real problem. The main reason I like it is that it's a good way to finish off a nearly-milled-out opponent when you're facing time pressure. Ie., if my opponent is on 12 cards remaining vs. my double Dictate, it will take him 5 more turns to lose (4 to draw out and dies on the 5th). Fascination can easily knock 2-3 turns off that clock in one shot, and as long as I'm holding a Bow or Learn from the Past it's no trouble. If the oppo's library is really low it's a straight-up kill spell. Only one is necessary, you won't want or need to use it until the end and you'll have found it by then. Still, without Kruphix to power it up I have doubts whether it would be efficient enough to be worth all the times it gets drawn early and sits there uselessly in hand.
Again, love the deck, Cythare, and thanks for the sideboarding tips!
Kasreyn, would you mind posting your current list, I can't seem to find it looking back at this thread.
That's because it's been forever and I've drifted away from that list. I was running a variant on Ali Aintrazi's "Bant Gods", which I called "enbantment fog" since most of my control pieces were enchantments. Win-cons were millout or three singleton gods (Heliod, Thassa, and Kruphix). Most games were won via smashing with gods, not milling - the turbofog just let me get my board state set up. My creatures being gods meant I could drop Ends and Retributions on top of their heads without fear.
But the deck struggled endlessly with fast aggro like Rabble Red and Jeskai, because it was fog-light, and the recent rise of Esper Dragons put the final nail in the coffin: Foul-Tongue Invocation is horrifically efficient at dealing with gods that aren't backed up by other creatures. I found myself swapping to 4x Grindclock but usually lost the counter war because my permission suite wasn't beefy enough.
For a time I was on straight Simic t-fog, but the lack of Banishing Light and good lifegain (read: Ram and Rezzo Angel) were just too frustrating for me to tolerate. Struggling against burn was one thing, but struggling against burn AND Ashiok was a position I didn't want to be in. So now I'm back on the Bant plan but with white as a mere splash for a few silver bullet style answers and a few Banishing Lights. The deck is still primarily Simic in nature.
I have a list from a couple weeks ago but frankly I'm going to tear it apart and re-do Thursday anyway, based on the amazing lists I've been seeing here this week. I lean more heavily towards life lands than others do, as I feel 4x Anticipate, 2x Dig, and 4x Dictate provide all the digging I need. Gaining 3 life in a game against red is a free card, and I don't want to pass that up. As far as win-cons go, I currently include 2 Clocks, 1 Kruphix, 1 Thassa, 1 PLA, and 1 Fascination. PLA is really mostly there just as a planeswalker killer. Kruphix I am considering cutting. Thassa is just a better Monastery Siege and always worth including IMO. Best is to combine Thassa, one Dictate, and PLA to turn Thassa online - then if you need you can bounce the PLA to save them both from removal.
Running double white spells with only 10 white sources is insane IMO. You want around 16 for End Hostilities (13 or 14 is probably OK due to scry lands and the card draw/filtering in the deck). I think radiant fountain is pretty greedy in a three colour deck with double-costed cards in every colour as well.
I agree with this assessment. Any third-color splash denies the use of more than one or two colorless lands, and even then they have to be really awesome to make the grade. Radiant Fountain is good but not that awesome. You preserve your life much better by hitting double white reliably than you do by gaining two life.
Ouch, 6 fetches and no life lands? You're taking it too far in the opposite direction. What do we even need fetches for? They help with Dig a bit but you don't need 6 of them, that could cost you 3 life in the early game against burn and that's simply too much. I would turn three of them and three of the Temples into lifegain lands.
I mean, I generally don't want to be casting End Hostilities on turn 5, but you make a valid point. I also definitely want some gain lands if I'm cutting the Fountains (which I did do last night). Right now I'm at:
This is very close to my lands. I am all-in on Temples of Mystery and Thornwood Falls as my deck is heavily Simic with a small white splash, plus I board a second Bow vs. Burn so I need to be able to rely on both GG and UU early on in sideboarded games. But basically you're very close to the mana base I'm at.
I will post my list once I get it assembled for FNM.
One important factor to keep in mind is paper and MTGO are two very different things. On Mtgo you have to actually finish all 3 games to win. In paper you can just win the first and 1-0-1 your opponent lol. You have to be able to kill them in 2 games or play faster than them or lose.
I've found that for me I like setting up a turn where I can get a Kruphix into play and protect it. Then start slowly building mana and resources until I'm in a unkillable position and then cast Fascination for game or just keep trying to run my opponents time clock if I'm ahead.
Did a little more testing and changed up the deck to try to shore up v Mono-Red, which I think is the worst matchup. After a few sideboard games, I found that whenever I drew Nyx-Fleece Ram, I wished it was Arashin Cleric. I also added a couple Elspeths to the sideboard after taking what you guys had noted about her into consideration, moved the Grindclocks to the main deck, and removed the Radiant Fountains, adding a couple more KTK gainlands instead, which leaves me at this:
I also swapped one of the Gainsays in the SB for an Ojutai's Command for mono-red/Atarka red, which is where I feel most of the modes will be most relevant (specifically, it's the only deck I expect to bring in Clerics for). I'll be putting a bit more testing in over the week to get ready for this weekend, but I'm hoping this is at least somewhere in the right area for the GP.
Planning to have this available as a curve-ball choice in a FNM environment. Have you fog-pilots formed opinions on Sphinx's Tutelage or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? Jace seems to have good synergy with Ojutai's Command and generates huge value not only in recurring CA engines like DTT or his own ingenuity, but simultaneously milling with Tutelage.
Likely Grindclock and Tutelage both belong in the 75, as Tugelage turns on probably 3-4 turns after you'd want GC resolved.
Planning to have this available as a curve-ball choice in a FNM environment. Have you fog-pilots formed opinions on Sphinx's Tutelage or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? Jace seems to have good synergy with Ojutai's Command and generates huge value not only in recurring CA engines like DTT or his own ingenuity, but simultaneously milling with Tutelage.
Likely Grindclock and Tutelage both belong in the 75, as Tugelage turns on probably 3-4 turns after you'd want GC resolved.
I like Grindclock more because it's colorless and Ugin is in the format. If I was playing 4 Grindclocks and wanted more I'd add some Sphinx's Tutelage in. Jace is a good sideboard card for creatureless maindecks, but I wouldn't play him unless that was the case.
Well when they cast it you fog before it enters play then hopefully have end hostilities or Elspeth too kill it. If you're playing ug you lose though unless you can kill them.
Planning to have this available as a curve-ball choice in a FNM environment. Have you fog-pilots formed opinions on Sphinx's Tutelage or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy? Jace seems to have good synergy with Ojutai's Command and generates huge value not only in recurring CA engines like DTT or his own ingenuity, but simultaneously milling with Tutelage.
Likely Grindclock and Tutelage both belong in the 75, as Tugelage turns on probably 3-4 turns after you'd want GC resolved.
Uh, I may be wrong here but I'm pretty sure this forum's rules preclude discussion of spoiled cards until WotC has published the full spoiler. Which they haven't. If I were you I'd be careful, a moderator might nuke those comments.
End Hostilities. Banishing Light. Whelming Wave can buy a turn. Or just combo lifegain from Bow with a beatstick like Pearl Lake Ancient and just outrace him. Some bant versions of t-fog run Citadel Siege, which can lock Dromoka down. Still though, you really don't want to leave him on the board, so wrathing or banishing him is best. Glare of Heresy works too.
OK, a quick update folks, it appears WotC has published the full visual spoiler for MTG:Origins on the mothership. Here is a link for any who've not seen it.
According to forum rules IIRC it is now acceptable to discuss new cards from the upcoming set in this thread. So, without further ado, I will go over my thoughts for t-fog from Magic Origins. (Spoiler alert: not much in this set is any use to us.)
Sphinx's Tutelage is riDONKulous. Will definitely be testing a few. Even if its grindstone ability never triggers, it mills a good deal faster than Grindclock in combination with Dictates. It doesn't fit into an early curve like the Clock, but the cool thing is since you don't need to "charge" it, you can drop it later without worrying so much. With two Dictates online it drops and immediately starts milling for 6+ per turn. I would say this card is good enough that it makes the deck want to replace some of its pseudo-draw like Anticipate and Dig Through Time, with cards that actually say the word "draw" so we can get more triggers. I will still want a couple Clocks in the board vs. decks packing Ugin, which I expect to make a resurgence with the phenomenally good ramp spells green is getting in this set.
I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with the Walkers in this set. Not just because, since they all have to arrive as creatures, they are all miserable in this deck since they will be removal magnets, but also just because their walker modes are pretty weak compared to what you have to go through to get them to transform. :\
Vine Snare - OK, so WotC has given us another Fog to play with, but once again it's a limited and crappy fog. This is pretty terrible, since it can't stop a lot of relevant creatures in Standard, particularly Dragons. Not that I was even running Revealing Wind (which is terrible but still better than Vine Snare), but Vine Snare doesn't deserve a slot in this deck at all, at least not until Theros rotates out. But since Theros rotating out might take out Dictate without providing a replacement in a later set, the deck might not survive that rotation anyway. I expect Vine Snare might see a little play as a "trick" in green fatties type decks at FNM but it's useless for T-Fog purposes.
Tragic Arrogance is a pretty poor example of a wrath, especially since it forces us to lose all but one of our enchantments, while allowing the opponent to save their best fatty. No thanks.
Orbs of Warding strike me as a useful card against token decks and potentially Red Deck Wins. This combination Witchbane Orb and quasi-Urza's Armor does a lot of work for only five mana. Blanking all direct burn until they can find an artifact removal, and blunting all combats, means we gain a LOT of time to find answers. I will definitely be testing a couple of these in the board vs. Red, as in my experience they often pull their bigger creatures and bring in all their situational burn. By running zero creatures plus Orbs I think Orbs could also play a role against WGx decks running Dromoka's Command, which is also a beating against us. Clever red players will realize they can still Wild Slashthemselves to beat a fog, but even that will still reduce the threat to us.
Cards to look out for would include Vryn Wingmare. If we are relying on being able to untap and cast End Hostilities, but they cast this thing on their t5, we could be hosed if we don't have a fog to last another turn. In multiples it's particularly nasty, because this deck relies on being able to fog plus anticipate / counter on several turns in the midgame. I could see some W/x aggro decks sideboarding this card against control decks, and catching us in the "splash damage". Remember that if you have a fog in hand and they go to cast this guy before combat you can just fog the turn right then. If you can take the hit from the attack it's probably better to just counter the Wingmare.
Let me know what your thoughts are! I'm very excited to start testing Sphinx's Tutelage and Orbs of Warding.
I didn't read the 9 pages but someone has tested yet soulfire grandmaster? She does block early creatures and he can make a lock against many decks also would be nice to include some numbers of ojutai command cause they work really well with her and for the new set i guess jace with the sphinx milage coud be great also dont forget that sphinx is a sink of mana too so maybe some numbers of nissa could make in to help us get mana for the soulfire lock and in late game she makes a great card advantage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but SGM is a creature, right? And we're running Dictate of Kruphix, right?
Looks like your playing superfriend fog. Not running Dictate of Kruphix means you have no fog. I'd cut Wall of Essence for Deathmist Raptor if you wanna play Den Protector. I'd try and fit some dictate of kruphix into here as they are critical for us to draw into fogs. You might be better off just running Dig Through Time / Anticipate in your build though to keep them off removal for walkers and because with Ugin you don't want cheap permanents.
Edit: I'd like to also point out that in all my games I have never been required to Learn from the Past more than once to win. Idk if you've experienced otherwise, but I've found this to be the case.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
The best, I think, is Bow PLUS Chimera. Wait for them to tap out before dropping Chimera, so you can get at least two life out of it and untap. Then you can threaten to pump it with Bow in response to burn, meaning they at least need to use something better than Wild Slash if they want to kill it. Bow plus Ram is pretty good too, since a 1/6 body is hard to kill plus can actually kill things occasionally.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
1 AEtherspouts
4 Anticipate
4 Defend the Hearth
2 Dig Through Time
1 Disdainful Stroke
3 Dissipate
2 Dissolve
1 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Learn from the Past
2 Negate
4 Winds of Qal Sisma
Sorcery (4)
3 End Hostilities
1 Whelming Wave
1 Bow of Nylea
4 Dictate of Kruphix
Land (25)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Radiant Fountain
3 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Plenty
2 Thornwood Falls
1 Tranquil Cove
1 Windswept Heath
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Banishing Light
2 Display of Dominance
2 Erase
3 Gainsay
2 Grindclock
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
1 Resolute Archangel
Bow of Nylea and Resolute Archangel both pulled a lot of weight, so thanks for the tips there! My only other issue is that I need to smooth out my manabase some. The last round of Swiss was win-and-in for Top 8, and I died in game 3 to a Rabblemaster and a slew of tokens with End Hostilities in my hand and only one white source. Given that I was sitting at 18 life and he had no cards in his hand, sweeping the board there would have sealed the game for me.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Also, how did the Displays of Dominance perform against Ashioks?
Glad to hear it! I'm wondering also how the wrath mix went for you. I prefer to run all-Waves and Spouts because, while they're worse against Rhinos and a few other creatures, they're phenomenal against most of the rest of the field, and they both allow you to reset your own Archangel in a pinch. Aside from Rhino, are there any other situations where you are much happier drawing End Hostilities rather than Spouts or Wave?
Did you test the Fascinations that some are running and just reject them, or decide against them for some other reason? I'm currently running only one alongside Kruphix, but the singleton has been occasionally awesome.
Love the heavy permission package. Can you explain exactly what your sideboarding strategy was?
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
I get the auras thing, which is great against Bestows (not that many run them right now). But I don't get how it prevents hasters? EH is sorcery, they can untap and throw some Dash guys at you or Kolaghan or Sarkhan, etc., etc. Aetherspouts is instant and you get to untap BEFORE they get another attack step. Also, both Spouts and Wave can clear Heroic's board, which is not likely with EH since they typically just use an instant to grant indestructible to their best threat.
I really don't use Wave / Spouts as permanent solutions to problems but as "big fogs" that buy me more breathing room and allow me to counter specific creatures on recast. Wave's 1 mana cost savings over EH is really important, especially if you run Bant which likely involves more taplands than Simic lists. The risk of not having an untap land (basic or fetch) on t5 is significant and can easily be game over. Even if you're right on curve, EH can simply be too slow to save you against a very good hand from red or Heroic if they are on the play. Turn four is not when we want to start casting our fogs, Wave allows us what is sometimes two turns' breathing room (since the added cards from Dictate have not necessarily converted into added mana for the opponent yet by this point). Later in the game, Wave is less meaningful since they can probably just cast a lethal-power army with available mana. But on turn four, Wave buys critical time to set up. It allows t5 Bow + Fog or Bow activation mana up, or it allows Clock + Counter mana up, where those plays would previously be impossible b/c t5 would be EH time. The downside (terrible against Rhino, weak against haste / Rabblemaster) is IMO made up for by the cheapness. It's also nice when you face Jeskai and their first few turns are token spells and you get to sweep them with Wave. I've had Jeskai players look at my mana, see I'm not going to have five on my next turn, and tap out for Hordeling Outburst to follow their Raise the Alarm. People forget Whelming Wave exists. I've had plenty of opponents grab it from me and read it in shock. We should capitalize on that more.
It's also pretty hilarious with the singleton Stormtide Leviathan sideboard plan...
I like the idea of maybe a singleton Elspeth, to go along with the PLA and a couple other options. A deck like this, with such massive draw power, can afford to run two or three singleton win-conditions that are very different from one another, so we can use whichever one works best in a given m/u. I agree that the more double-white spells we add, the harder our mana base gets to build. Elspeth is fine since you're not going to want to drop her without counter backup in most cases (Hero's Downfall is still a card and will be hungry for a target after our not playing any creatures), which means nine mana. Getting to two white by turn nine is not difficult. Getting to two white by turn five for EH, now that's the thing that strains the mana base. Which is the other reason I'm not so hot on EH these days. I run only a small white splash but supporting a singleton Archangel, a singleton Elspeth, and a few Rams and Banishing Lights in the board is very doable and I rarely lack for blue and green.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
My favorite wincon is still mill. I agree about Elspeth just dieing to a removal but you can always sideboard it if you're worried. I play 3 Negates 2 dissolve main and typically prefer to save it for permanent destruction and planeswalkers.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
I actually didn't see any Ashioks, and now that I'm running white for Banishing Light, I may end up cutting Display of Dominance. I can say that I liked them back when I wasn't running white, though. I'm generally happier running End Hostilities against Rabblemaster and Stormbreath/Mantis Rider as well - for Rabblemaster, the damage from them builds up over time, and the first turn or two generally isn't worth blowing a fog on, but still causes damage to build up over time. For Stormbreath/Mantis Rider, I just want to get that guy out of there. Aetherspouts/Whelming Wave just don't do enough against them, and can actually be worth for Stormbreath if you end up resetting monstrous. That said, Wave/Spouts is excellent v Abzan decks if you don't have Siege Rhino to worry about, since Rakshasa Deathdealer and Fleecemane Lion can just ignore the wraths.
I wasn't excited by Fascination. I haven't actually tested them, but I don't like that they're sorcery-speed and leave me more prone to tapping out (and I also don't want to run Kruphix, since I'll have to give up permission slots). I'm considering testing an Elspeth or two (probably in the side in lieu of the Displays). I definitely don't want her main, since I like the idea of my opponents boarding out removal after G1 that would otherwise leave her prone to a quick death. I have ended up skewing my mana base more towards white, and I feel like End Hostilities is worth it. With the exception of the Bow, I don't have any GG requirements, and if I'm already gunning for the mana for End Hostilities, I can see Elspeth coming in too.
Sideboarding strategies:
I brought in the three Nyx-Fleece Ram and the Resolute Archangel, taking out Disdainful Stroke, one Negate, the Whelming Wave (this may be incorrect) and something else. The Archangel ended up maybe being too slow, but I never actually drew it anyways. The Stroke doesn't really hit much in this deck, so I found it to be worthless, and I found Negate to be awkward in multiples. Whelming Wave was taken out because I just didn't like to hit Rabblemaster, but I'd leave it in if it's a more token-oriented build.
V Abzan:
I would change basically nothing (I'd bring in Elspeths if I ran them, probably taking out a Negate and maybe the Bow - I don't think it's needed in this matchup). The only noncreature spell I really care about is Thoughtseize here, and I think that this is the deck I like facing most out of the major players in Standard.
Esper Dragons:
I like bringing in the Banishing Lights here, since they tend to have more problem permanents - Ashiok, Narset - and the dragons they recur are also issues. I've also seen some Risen Executioners out of sideboards and those can't just be wrathed away. I'd probably go +2 Banishing Light +3 Gainsay, -1 Disdainful Stroke, -1 Aetherspouts, -2 fogs, -1 Bow of Nylea. I'd probably leave out one of the Banishing Lights and leave the Aetherspouts in if it's a U/B build, since you can't use BL on Silumgar, the Drifting Death.
Mardu Dragons:
Resolute Archangel is huge here, and this is a matchup I'd probably want Elspeth in. Bring in Archangel and Elspeth, take out Whelming Wave, one Negate, maybe something else?
Those are the main things I found to be effective.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
I still don't see how Aetherspouts fails against hasters. Even if they have the mana to recast a new army of hasters same turn as your Spouts, they've already used up their attack step, so the heat is still off for a turn. By comparison, Dictate feeds them extra attackers. All they need to cast is a lethal army, they can hold the rest and just plop lands until you End. Then they untap, cast a hasty army and swing. If you tapped out for that EH, you're dead. So Spouts serves as both a wrath and a fog, thanks to being instant speed.
I have also tested Fated Retribution in a more white-heavy list as a two-of. Lategame it's pretty sick, most have forgotten the card exists, and paying for it is easier with Kruphix. But I'm trending away from the heavy white investment so I've dropped Fated R.
I would probably run 3 Spouts, 2 Waves, and 2 EH in the board, to bring in against decks where Wave is terrible.
Either you are much better at t-fog than me or you had some luck on your side. Milling out via draw only means in sideboarded games you are guaranteeing your opponent will draw every sideboard one-of they might bring in against you. That's pretty ballsy! I'm happy to have Dictates do much of the heavy lifting, but if my goal is millout I prefer to give it a boost with Clocks.
Agree with this. Ashiok was really the top card DoD was for and B-L can handle her. So can Gainsay and Negate, if you have an untapped land on t2.
Fair enough. I'm thinking of dropping Kruphix myself, as the hand size thing is rarely crucial (plus discarding helps me pay for Dig), and the mana-storage thing is also rarely useful as I'm running a more land-light version now anyway, so I don't have as much excess mana sitting around. Without Kruphix, Fascination would probably get the boot as well. The sorcery speed is a real problem. The main reason I like it is that it's a good way to finish off a nearly-milled-out opponent when you're facing time pressure. Ie., if my opponent is on 12 cards remaining vs. my double Dictate, it will take him 5 more turns to lose (4 to draw out and dies on the 5th). Fascination can easily knock 2-3 turns off that clock in one shot, and as long as I'm holding a Bow or Learn from the Past it's no trouble. If the oppo's library is really low it's a straight-up kill spell. Only one is necessary, you won't want or need to use it until the end and you'll have found it by then. Still, without Kruphix to power it up I have doubts whether it would be efficient enough to be worth all the times it gets drawn early and sits there uselessly in hand.
Again, love the deck, Cythare, and thanks for the sideboarding tips!
That's because it's been forever and I've drifted away from that list. I was running a variant on Ali Aintrazi's "Bant Gods", which I called "enbantment fog" since most of my control pieces were enchantments. Win-cons were millout or three singleton gods (Heliod, Thassa, and Kruphix). Most games were won via smashing with gods, not milling - the turbofog just let me get my board state set up. My creatures being gods meant I could drop Ends and Retributions on top of their heads without fear.
But the deck struggled endlessly with fast aggro like Rabble Red and Jeskai, because it was fog-light, and the recent rise of Esper Dragons put the final nail in the coffin: Foul-Tongue Invocation is horrifically efficient at dealing with gods that aren't backed up by other creatures. I found myself swapping to 4x Grindclock but usually lost the counter war because my permission suite wasn't beefy enough.
For a time I was on straight Simic t-fog, but the lack of Banishing Light and good lifegain (read: Ram and Rezzo Angel) were just too frustrating for me to tolerate. Struggling against burn was one thing, but struggling against burn AND Ashiok was a position I didn't want to be in. So now I'm back on the Bant plan but with white as a mere splash for a few silver bullet style answers and a few Banishing Lights. The deck is still primarily Simic in nature.
I have a list from a couple weeks ago but frankly I'm going to tear it apart and re-do Thursday anyway, based on the amazing lists I've been seeing here this week. I lean more heavily towards life lands than others do, as I feel 4x Anticipate, 2x Dig, and 4x Dictate provide all the digging I need. Gaining 3 life in a game against red is a free card, and I don't want to pass that up. As far as win-cons go, I currently include 2 Clocks, 1 Kruphix, 1 Thassa, 1 PLA, and 1 Fascination. PLA is really mostly there just as a planeswalker killer. Kruphix I am considering cutting. Thassa is just a better Monastery Siege and always worth including IMO. Best is to combine Thassa, one Dictate, and PLA to turn Thassa online - then if you need you can bounce the PLA to save them both from removal.
I agree with this assessment. Any third-color splash denies the use of more than one or two colorless lands, and even then they have to be really awesome to make the grade. Radiant Fountain is good but not that awesome. You preserve your life much better by hitting double white reliably than you do by gaining two life.
Ouch, 6 fetches and no life lands? You're taking it too far in the opposite direction. What do we even need fetches for? They help with Dig a bit but you don't need 6 of them, that could cost you 3 life in the early game against burn and that's simply too much. I would turn three of them and three of the Temples into lifegain lands.
This is very close to my lands. I am all-in on Temples of Mystery and Thornwood Falls as my deck is heavily Simic with a small white splash, plus I board a second Bow vs. Burn so I need to be able to rely on both GG and UU early on in sideboarded games. But basically you're very close to the mana base I'm at.
I will post my list once I get it assembled for FNM.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
I've found that for me I like setting up a turn where I can get a Kruphix into play and protect it. Then start slowly building mana and resources until I'm in a unkillable position and then cast Fascination for game or just keep trying to run my opponents time clock if I'm ahead.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
4 Anticipate
4 Defend the Hearth
2 Dig Through Time
1 Disdainful Stroke
3 Dissipate
2 Dissolve
1 Jace's Ingenuity
2 Learn from the Past
1 Negate
4 Winds of Qal Sisma
Sorcery (4)
3 End Hostilities
1 Whelming Wave
Enchantment (5)
1 Bow of Nylea
4 Dictate of Kruphix
2 Grindclock
Land (25)
2 Blossoming Sands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Temple of Mystery
1 Temple of Plenty
2 Thornwood Falls
2 Tranquil Cove
1 Windswept Heath
2 Yavimaya Coast
1 Aetherspouts
3 Arashin Cleric
2 Banishing Light
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Erase
2 Gainsay
1 Negate
1 Ojutai's Command
1 Resolute Archangel
I also swapped one of the Gainsays in the SB for an Ojutai's Command for mono-red/Atarka red, which is where I feel most of the modes will be most relevant (specifically, it's the only deck I expect to bring in Clerics for). I'll be putting a bit more testing in over the week to get ready for this weekend, but I'm hoping this is at least somewhere in the right area for the GP.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
Likely Grindclock and Tutelage both belong in the 75, as Tugelage turns on probably 3-4 turns after you'd want GC resolved.
I like Grindclock more because it's colorless and Ugin is in the format. If I was playing 4 Grindclocks and wanted more I'd add some Sphinx's Tutelage in. Jace is a good sideboard card for creatureless maindecks, but I wouldn't play him unless that was the case.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Uh, I may be wrong here but I'm pretty sure this forum's rules preclude discussion of spoiled cards until WotC has published the full spoiler. Which they haven't. If I were you I'd be careful, a moderator might nuke those comments.
End Hostilities. Banishing Light. Whelming Wave can buy a turn. Or just combo lifegain from Bow with a beatstick like Pearl Lake Ancient and just outrace him. Some bant versions of t-fog run Citadel Siege, which can lock Dromoka down. Still though, you really don't want to leave him on the board, so wrathing or banishing him is best. Glare of Heresy works too.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
According to forum rules IIRC it is now acceptable to discuss new cards from the upcoming set in this thread. So, without further ado, I will go over my thoughts for t-fog from Magic Origins. (Spoiler alert: not much in this set is any use to us.)
Sphinx's Tutelage is riDONKulous. Will definitely be testing a few. Even if its grindstone ability never triggers, it mills a good deal faster than Grindclock in combination with Dictates. It doesn't fit into an early curve like the Clock, but the cool thing is since you don't need to "charge" it, you can drop it later without worrying so much. With two Dictates online it drops and immediately starts milling for 6+ per turn. I would say this card is good enough that it makes the deck want to replace some of its pseudo-draw like Anticipate and Dig Through Time, with cards that actually say the word "draw" so we can get more triggers. I will still want a couple Clocks in the board vs. decks packing Ugin, which I expect to make a resurgence with the phenomenally good ramp spells green is getting in this set.
I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with the Walkers in this set. Not just because, since they all have to arrive as creatures, they are all miserable in this deck since they will be removal magnets, but also just because their walker modes are pretty weak compared to what you have to go through to get them to transform. :\
Vine Snare - OK, so WotC has given us another Fog to play with, but once again it's a limited and crappy fog. This is pretty terrible, since it can't stop a lot of relevant creatures in Standard, particularly Dragons. Not that I was even running Revealing Wind (which is terrible but still better than Vine Snare), but Vine Snare doesn't deserve a slot in this deck at all, at least not until Theros rotates out. But since Theros rotating out might take out Dictate without providing a replacement in a later set, the deck might not survive that rotation anyway. I expect Vine Snare might see a little play as a "trick" in green fatties type decks at FNM but it's useless for T-Fog purposes.
Tragic Arrogance is a pretty poor example of a wrath, especially since it forces us to lose all but one of our enchantments, while allowing the opponent to save their best fatty. No thanks.
Orbs of Warding strike me as a useful card against token decks and potentially Red Deck Wins. This combination Witchbane Orb and quasi-Urza's Armor does a lot of work for only five mana. Blanking all direct burn until they can find an artifact removal, and blunting all combats, means we gain a LOT of time to find answers. I will definitely be testing a couple of these in the board vs. Red, as in my experience they often pull their bigger creatures and bring in all their situational burn. By running zero creatures plus Orbs I think Orbs could also play a role against WGx decks running Dromoka's Command, which is also a beating against us. Clever red players will realize they can still Wild Slash themselves to beat a fog, but even that will still reduce the threat to us.
Cards to look out for would include Vryn Wingmare. If we are relying on being able to untap and cast End Hostilities, but they cast this thing on their t5, we could be hosed if we don't have a fog to last another turn. In multiples it's particularly nasty, because this deck relies on being able to fog plus anticipate / counter on several turns in the midgame. I could see some W/x aggro decks sideboarding this card against control decks, and catching us in the "splash damage". Remember that if you have a fog in hand and they go to cast this guy before combat you can just fog the turn right then. If you can take the hit from the attack it's probably better to just counter the Wingmare.
Let me know what your thoughts are! I'm very excited to start testing Sphinx's Tutelage and Orbs of Warding.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Correct me if I'm wrong, but SGM is a creature, right? And we're running Dictate of Kruphix, right?
Good luck with that.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog