Black/White Warriors centric; with a splash of red for probably the most powerful draw card in standard from the sideboard.
You'll probably want to replace some of those etb tapped lands. I like the idea of splashing red, but I think this deck does best when it can drop as much as possible within the first 2 turns. You could run a few mana confluences, and bloodstained (if you've got the cash - mana confluence is high considering it's city of ass 99.9% of the time). This opens up outpost, chandra, and lots o' burn.
I really don't like foul-tongue shriek in this deck. If you have enough creatures attacking to make the effect worth a card you're already in a great spot. The biggest weakness of the deck seems to be when your board gets picked apart before the actual warrior synergy gets going, and foul-tongue shriek does nothing to help this. I don't think a zero card draw deck can afford cards with such limited use.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/05-05-15-KhM-bw-warriors/ is the list I've been playing so far
on the fence about the number of temples/mana confluences for the lands, side board is still really flexible depending on the meta, I'm interested in trying chief of the scale on the board.
Main deck I'm still balancing the amount of finishers/removal/one drops but I think the deck needs to stay low to the ground.
You'll probably want to replace some of those etb tapped lands. I like the idea of splashing red, but I think this deck does best when it can drop as much as possible within the first 2 turns. You could run a few mana confluences, and bloodstained (if you've got the cash - mana confluence is high considering it's city of ass 99.9% of the time). This opens up outpost, chandra, and lots o' burn.
If I get a tapland t1, then a Battle Brawler t2, Arashin Foremost t3, t4 Chief of the Edge, Spear of Heliod or Sorin = 6 Damage turn 3, and a potentially fatal turn 4 for opponent. At 2RR Chandra is not a card I see as workable in a splash.
3 2/1 drops on turns 1 and 2 is valid when you follow that up with a "booster" turn 3 (Chief of the Edge and/or Spear of Heliod); but you have to watch out for sweepers. Getting hit with a 4 for 1 can wind up being a lost game quickly. Simply having chief of edge catch a wild slash before the beginning of combat on turn 3 has the same effect. Making that version of the deck work really needs to leverage on the discard in the archetype to keep sweepers out of hand.
To be honest, I would have to run Sidisi, Undead Vizier as a 1 of in place of 1 Sorin before and run just 1 Mana confluence for a scoured barrens instead of the 8 taplands. The late game tutor exploit can be a "complete the combo" to get our red producing land, as well as possibly pull the red card if we need that done. If not - Sidisi can simply find Sorin. The fact he is a 4/6 body with deathtouch is even better.
In building this Deck we have a critical card in Virulent Plague. Plague does not play well with token generating cards, and there are quite a few, especially if we go to full mardu colors and splash red. Pre-Rotation, I am running 15+ removal spells main + the 2 Spear of Heliod and Sorin, Solemn Visitor as potential removal. This is WITHOUT main-decking Hero's Downfall, or Having Utter End anywhere in the 75.
I really don't like foul-tongue shriek in this deck. If you have enough creatures attacking to make the effect worth a card you're already in a great spot. The biggest weakness of the deck seems to be when your board gets picked apart before the actual warrior synergy gets going, and foul-tongue shriek does nothing to help this. I don't think a zero card draw deck can afford cards with such limited use.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/05-05-15-KhM-bw-warriors/ is the list I've been playing so far
on the fence about the number of temples/mana confluences for the lands, side board is still really flexible depending on the meta, I'm interested in trying chief of the scale on the board.
Main deck I'm still balancing the amount of finishers/removal/one drops but I think the deck needs to stay low to the ground.
I think you have a point there. I must admit that maybe I'm biased toward foul-tongue shriek because, in some specific situations it has winned me one or two games, but I'm not really sure if the result wouldn't have been the same if I hadn't that card in my hand. I'll try replacing it for other cards and see what happens, maybe I have underrated secure the wastes, I guess I will test it and see if it can be the answer I've been searching for hard removal.
About Chief of the Scale, in my list at least, although it offers a big body and great effect, they are not that big to solve problems that spear of heliod solves in a better way. I know it means one less creature for the deck, but it is harder to remove (1st game at least) and it adds to the aggro focus that the deck wants.
In spite of the mana base, I have found that it is not the biggest deal to have 2 or 3 (maybe even 4) taplands that offer both mana colors: you could have the worst "luck" and draw three taplands in you first hand and not be able to cast your one-drops, but the probability for that is really low. You will prefer having having a tapland and being able to cast everything in your hand soon or later (the sooner the better) than having two swamps and a plains in play and two Arashin Foremost sitting in your hand.
I previously had a manabase with no temples and now I'm currently testing a manabase with 2 temples (the one in my list), then I'll test one with 4 temples but just 20 lands. I've seen an improvement in consistency, problems like the one I described above are much less frequent now.
I'll post again when I get more results.
I've gone with a very low curve aggro build, since I think curving out quick and hard is the way to go with this deck. The most important advantage we have is making combat difficult for the opponent, between Blood-Chin Rager and Mogis's Marauder. While the manabase looks a bit painful between the full 4 confluences and caves, the goal is to kill your opponent as fast as possible so your life total isn't really a big deal, plus Mardu Woe-Reaper keeps us afloat a bit. The worst card for this to go up against is Anger of the Gods, but you still have the ability to fight through it. If you know your opponent is playing early 1/3s, look for an opening hand that has chiefs/ragers so you can run over it instead of having to set yourself back to remove it or holding off on an attack.
Sideboard choices:
1 Athreos, God of Passage
Lets us play a long game with the decks that want to trade 1 for 1.
1 Chief of the Scale
Helps the x/2s dodge Drown in Sorrow, lets our x/1s eat 1/1 tokens that give this deck problems, and lets the x/2s dodge 2 damage removal.
1 Hall of Triumph
It would be Spear of Heliod if Dromoka's Command wasn't a thing. Has the same function as chief of the scale, helps our creatures trade with x/3s as well. Not a necessary sb card.
2 Mardu Shadowspear
Still the equivalent of a 2/1 in control matchups, but the dashing lets us get some hasty points of damage in and dodge sorcery speed wipes.
1 Mardu Strike Leader
Also a dasher. This card is just too slow, and I rarely want to cast him as a 3 drop. Definitely not necessary in the sb.
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
Great for the G/x decks, significantly better than any of our other removal due to the 2 life loss clause.
1 Swamp
Brought in over a plains when a lot of the black heavy sideboard is brought in
2 Thoughtseize
Brought in to disrupt plans to stabilize with a sweeper, and as a catchall if you run into something unfamiliar.
3 Virulent Plague
Brought in vs token strategies, which are very strong against us. Blanking a decent portion of the opponent's deck is also great for us.
Notable Exclusions Brutal Hordechief: It was either this or Sorin, Solemn Visitor. They both can have an effect when they hit the field, but Sorin hedges better against sweepers. Temple of Silence: Tapped lands are pretty bad here as they prevent us from curving out quickly. With 10 1 drops and 10 2 drops I pretty much always want to have a t1 followed by a t2 play. Playing these slows this deck down and makes hands where temples are the only land much worse. Bile Blight: I've tried to minimalize the cards with double color costs I play to make the mana smoother. Ultimate Price and Valorous Stance tend to do the same thing I need as Blight without a heavy color investment. If I maindecked Mardu Shadowspear over Dragon Hunter and increased the number of black producing lands, I could see myself playing these instead of price. Foul-Tongue Shriek: I do think this deck would love reach. This unfortunately is not the reach I'm looking for as it's a dead card if I run into a sweeper early on. Given the worst case scenario is a Drown in Sorrow or Anger of the Gods on t3, I want to be drawing threats to repopulate the board. Obelisk of Urd: Too slow. I believe it was discussed earlier in this thread, you don't want to be tapping your creatures to cast something, you want to be attacking.
Some Matchups and Sideboarding
Esper Dragons
Pre-board, they generally don't maindeck Drown in Sorrow, so you want to try and rush them the first few turns before they hit Crux of Fate mana. If you don't make it, the game gets a lot rougher but still doable with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Secure the Wastes, as well as recurring Bloodsoaked Champions. Just watch out for early Bile Blights and avoid playing duplicates when you can. I'd say g1 is about 50/50.
Post-board:
-2 Dragon Hunter
-1 Plains
-2 Blood-Chin Fanatic
-2 Ultimate Price
-1 Valorous Stance
+2 Mardu Shadowspear
+1 Swamp
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Athreos, God of Passage
+1 Chief of the Edge
+1 Mardu Strike Leader
The dragon hunters come out and the shadowspears come in to have a dasher after a sweeper. The same applies to the strike leader (which I don't like and will probably take it out of the board in the future. Fanatic is fine in this matchup since the strike leader doesn't have that big of an impact in this matchup). Small plains for swamp swap given the number of black cards I bring in over white. Price and Stance aren't that great here, I leave one stance in cause it's not completely dead. Athreos lets you play the long game if you can't kill them fast enough. The third Chief of the Edge comes in so your x/2s can dodge Drown in Sorrow. Lastly, Thoughtseize so you can snag a sweeper or Elspeth, Sun's Champion on a critical turn. Postboard is still 50/50 given how strong a good Drown can be (which they're sure to bring in 2-3).
Abzan Midrange
Pre-board: Blood-Chin Rager is our best card here, you can quickly put them on the defensive. Chief of the Edge lets us attack into fleecemanes and caryatids (i'm not opposed to trading a 1 drop for either one). Chief of the Scale makes a small showing maindeck to avoid mained Drown in Sorrows, as well as lets our x/2s attack into their 2/x dudes. From my experience the g1 has been a decent matchup as long as they don't play consecutive rhinos.
Price and Stance aren't as good as Wound here for this style of deck. Extra damage off of removal is exactly what we want. Athreos comes in in case the game goes long. Hall and Chief come in to dodge Drowns, and to better trade dudes with their slightly heavier hitters. 1 Marauder comes out since they do play some black creatures, but I don't mind drawing one in combination with Blood-Chin Rager to get in additional hard to block damage towards the end game. A Dragon Hunter comes out for the Chief of the Scale since the two drops are more valuable in a matchup where your opponent brings in Drowns. I could see switching out a plains for a swamp here for this sideboarding plan as well. Matchup improves postboard thanks to Wound mostly.
Abzan aggro is similar, except i leave in the stances and dragon hunter, and cut the Mogis's Marauders given they play more black creatures.
Atarka Aggro
Pre-Board: Definitely a difficult matchup g1 since we're inherently weak to token strategies. It's hard fighting through the tokens with your x/1s and rager, and they hit hard if they get in with tokens and Atarka's Command. Keeping a Chief of the Scale alive lets you eat tokens far better. Mardu Woe-Reaper gives some life gain to keep you afloat. If they stumble you can likely win the race, and Sorin tends to put you out of their reach. Secure the Wastes is great here if you can surprise a token army without command support. Regardless, I feel g1 is 35/65 in their favor.
Virulent Plague might as well read "you win the game" here. Without a flood of tokens to block or put major pressure on you, you out-aggro them. They suffer a major tempo loss as well if they play a t3 Hordeling Outburst, and you follow up with a plague. Secure the Wastes is a nonbo with plague here, and stance only has one mode in this matchup, so they come out. Post-board games are the ones you can really count on winning, so don't invest a whole lot into g1.
Overall I'm pretty happy with where this deck is, and the sideboard has some flex slots. I didn't test with Brutal Hordechief a lot so there's not much I can say on it except it looks alright on paper. I probably wouldn't play this in a meta where everyone has Anger of the Gods, as that is far more difficult to fight through than Drown in Sorrow or any of the higher cost sweepers since it takes out your Bloodsoaked Champions. If the mana could support Dromoka's Command, I would definitely try and get it to fit since it really improves the red matchups.
If the mana could support Dromoka's Command, I would definitely try and get it to fit since it really improves the red matchups.
I played against a G/W Warriors deck like 3 or 4 days ago, and Dromoka's Command, Warden of the First Tree, Surrak, the Hunt Caller and Collected Company were the best cards in it. I lost 1-2, I felt like I was fighting for the honor of this deck, the first match was long and I just lost to a 14/14 trample warden, second game I crushed him in 4 turns, but then, third game, he played a Collected Company and brought 2 Arashin Foremost to the battlefield... couldn't attack nor block well, I had cards to remove just one of the Arashins, there is little more to say. If there is a splash card I would want to try it would be Collected Company, hands down. Anyways, I agree it's green and not red the color I would like to splash into this deck, Command also ables a lot of one for two interactions that would be awesome for us.
The sideboard needs to be worked on a little more, it seems like it's a little biased against Abzan... and it is.
I don't have any problem against UBx control, nor dragons, not even against tokens: with the removal and spells I have in the maindeck I can trade very well with goblins, monks, etc... Abzan is just my nemesis, I don't know if it is just by chance, but my opponent always seem to just make their game and flood the battlefield with creatures I can't manage... It's always fine until they get like three Rhinos or three (or even four) Whisperwood Elementals (has anyone encountered that match? a ton of manifested 2/2 every turn? how do you deal with it?). And it is not like they (or I) do nothing util the fourth o fifth turn, it just that they take the damage and then ramp leaving behind Caryatids, Coursers, Fleecemanes, and then, surprise, Rhinos and Elementals. I know it's part playing the right cards, but I feel like I want to have a hand full of removal everytime I see a Sansteppe Citadel come down in the first or second turn...
*sigh* Anyways, I think you have made a clear point on how "not" to deal with abzan, never thought about bringing in something instead of the Spears, I think maybe it's there were the Chief of the Scale could fit, also, I haven't tried Mogi's Marauder and it could be the last piece I have been looking for in the maindeck.
I have to comment: against what I had tought, Secure the Wastes is just awesome, it's is basically the main answer for everything: rebuild, surprise block (removal-like) and a finisher. Seeker of the way entered my maindeck because of the number of non-creature spells I'm running, and it has been doing VERY well.
My results: I'm lately playing just in Magic Online, I can say I win 90% of the "Tournament Practice" Games I play, and the only official tournament (a Sandard Daily) I have played went 2-2, Fist match lose against Abzan midrange, second match win against UB control, third match lose against G/W manifest and then played just for practice, fourth match win against RDW, full of goblin tokens.
I prefer to hit fast and hard against the slower Abzan decks and try to avoid an attrition game (cause I will lose that). Given all versions of Abzan generally run some number of Dromoka's Command, I don't want to give them a huge blowout opportunity with spear. Hall of Triumph is rather mediocre since I can't give all my warriors a buff, but there's not another good 3 cmc option. Maybe another Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Great Teacher's Decree or even Rush of Battle would be better in its place.
Mogis's Marauder has definitely pulled its weight from what I've found. If they tap out for a Whisperwood, I can put down Marauder to bypass the bodies it makes for the finish. Having some maindeck haste is great for the control matchup as well.
Maybe its just me but I found Valorous Stance rather lackluster in the majority of my matches and would almost always rather have something else (if you notice I side it out in most of my matches, even against Abzan, since wound is much better).
I'll agree with you on Secure the Wastes. I had my doubts about it, but I do like drawing it towards the end of a match. X for just 2 or 3 at EOT with or followed by a buffer can steal games.
Ok, in order to deal with Abzan decks - especially the collected company aggro variant and/or those running Dromoka's command you need a removal package.
Against Abzan and Devotion type decks, keep their creatures off the table so Dromoka's command stays in their hand. They need a creature to play Dromoka's command ON for the spell to be playable - we have no burn spell in deck. Stupid concept here... but why run Evasion creatures such as Blood-Chin Rager and Mogis Marauder when we have removal spells to simply destroy would be blockers in the first place?
Most decks I am seeing run at least 6 removal spells, and 6 "evasion" creatures... I think 12+ Removal would be better.
I keep 3 Radiant Purge sideboard for the Valorous Stances in the "multicolor heavy" variant; and If your meta is full of Abzan and Stormbreath dragon - Hero's Downfall is better than Banishing light. Banishing is better against "fringe threats" as a catch all removal spell at sorcery speed. It has the drawback of being vulnerable to removal - but a corner case of helping in our devotion count for Athreos, God of Passage to offset that risk. Sideboard, Radiant Purge can be exchanged for Bile Blight.
The problem with this tactic versus Abzan is that they run more efficient creatures than we do. The power level of tribal cards in tribal decks rests upon synergy between cards, the power level of cards in the Abzan deck rests upon... the cards themselves. The attrition war will almost always be won by the Abzan deck, especially when they sideboard in cards like Elspeth, Sun's Champion.
I understand your point about Blood-Chin Rager, but you forget that he affects all your warriors, not just himself. Further if you're playing the aggro game then your game needs to be about pressure and constantly applying that pressure whenever you can - this is why evasive creatures are so important. With Blood-Chin Rager you can play it turn two and if they don't find an answer to him and/or keep two creatures on the battlefield, you can maintain pressure. Applying this pressure is, typically, more important than just removing their threats. So, ideally, you want to be able to do both where and when you can and you want to be playing creatures that can apply pressure with less help from you.
I keep changing my list... like all the time. I can never get 100% happy with it. Either way, this is where I am:
The Whip of Erebos might seem strange but an issue I had was falling behind in the race, especially against Abzan, well, against Siege Rhino. Then I realised that against a number of decks Whip of Erebos is still good - it helps in the Abzan matchup, it allows redundancy against control and can help stabilize against burn. Plus a number of creatures I run are effective from its recursion ability, namely Arashin Foremost and Blood-Chin Rager, although Chief of the Edge and the flying Herald of Torment aren't awful either.
Took third with this list at a local place this weekend. Didn't have the toughest matchups this weekend though.
Mono black aggro 2-0
Mono red aggro 2-1
Abzan control 1-2(sideboarded all wrong against this. I brought in removal when I should have brought in anthems and chief of scale.)
Comments:
I had tried jamming different warrior builds before DTK and it just wasn't there. I think this deck is pretty strong and fairly well position right now. I've been playing 4 planes walkers to increase the chances of a turn 4 kill, which I have been able to get fairly consistantly thus far. I had been testing with 3 secure the wastes, but its really something I don't want in my opening hand so I've cut that to two.
Dragons seem to have dropped of a bit in my meta so I think I'll be trading two dragon hunter for two Mardu woe-reaper. The life loss from lands is pretty substantial with this deck, so every point gained is critical should the game go past turn 4/5. The SB duress were erase, but with only a few dangerous enchantments floating around, duress seems better. May switch that to thoughtseize if I encounter more scenarios where I need to remove a creature, just want to be careful of adding any more painful cards.
Overall, its just a fun deck to play. Unfortunately it suffers from the same removal that red aggro does, but without the burn spells to back it up, so I may start testing a single spear of Heliod as well.
Manabase count:
9 Red Sources
12 White Sources
16 Black Sources
4 Taplands, drop Nomad outpost for Mana Confluence if you must.
Ok, 2 changes to the play of the deck - and radical changes to mana base.
Murderous Cut is bad in that it reduces the number of fuel cards for whip and Alesha - so this is not something I would want to see.
Valorous Stance is the card "opposite" Bile Blight.
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death:
1 A first Strike capability
2 Additional Graveyard recursion other than Whip
3 Is still a warrior that contributes to synergy
Against Abzan and Devotion type decks, keep their creatures off the table so Dromoka's command stays in their hand. They need a creature to play Dromoka's command ON for the spell to be playable - we have no burn spell in deck. Stupid concept here... but why run Evasion creatures such as Blood-Chin Rager and Mogis Marauder when we have removal spells to simply destroy would be blockers in the first place?
Like Karloski said, applying pressure is more important then removing threats. If i'm tapping out turn 3 for something like Hero's Downfall to take out an Anafenza, I'm not developing my board to keep the pressure on. I'd much rather put down Arashin Foremost and give a 1 drop double strike, which can easily trade with the khan if they're willing to make the block. With cards like Siege Rhino and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, they get value before we get a chance to remove, which just makes the matchup harder. Sideboard, I'd much rather use Self-Inflicted Wound over Radiant Purge because I'm getting a removal spell and some damage in.
Both Blood-Chin Rager and Mogis's Marauder grant evasion to multiple threats. If they only gave themselves evasion, I'd completely understand not playing them.
The Whip of Erebos might seem strange but an issue I had was falling behind in the race, especially against Abzan, well, against Siege Rhino. Then I realised that against a number of decks Whip of Erebos is still good - it helps in the Abzan matchup, it allows redundancy against control and can help stabilize against burn. Plus a number of creatures I run are effective from its recursion ability, namely Arashin Foremost and Blood-Chin Rager, although Chief of the Edge and the flying Herald of Torment aren't awful either.
You're only running a single one drop, and not having a turn 1 play could be why you're losing the race. 1 drop into Chief of the Edge lets the 1 drop trade with any 2 drop abzan can put out and makes it more likely you can get in there for some early points of damage. I definitely see the perks of Whip, but doesn't Sorin accomplish something similar minus being an enchantment? Maybe its just me but I think minimizing the ability of Dromoka's Command to 2 for 1 you is super important. Also you might want to play a singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to ease the pain from fetches/confluence and improve your ability to meet the double black costs of your cards.
Comments:
I had tried jamming different warrior builds before DTK and it just wasn't there. I think this deck is pretty strong and fairly well position right now. I've been playing 4 planes walkers to increase the chances of a turn 4 kill, which I have been able to get fairly consistantly thus far. I had been testing with 3 secure the wastes, but its really something I don't want in my opening hand so I've cut that to two.
I'm curious, how has Ajani Steadfast been performing for you? Is having a permanent +1/+1 bonus better than Sorin's +1?
I wouldn't say that its better, but maybe on par with what sorin does. They both boost damage and both help you survive, they just go about it different ways. Gaining life can help you survive long enough to rebuild if your board gets wiped and boosting your guys toughness can help prevent a board wipe and possibly boost a guy high enough that it won't die to small chump blockers. Both of these aspects give you a sizeable advantage should the game go past t4/5.
Another reason I run both is in case I draw into multiples, gives me better odds of being able to have two planeswalkers out and boosting my guys simultaneously.
To put it plainly, I'm never upset to see one of either in my first 10 cards. Hope this helps.
Like Karloski said, applying pressure is more important then removing threats. If i'm tapping out turn 3 for something like Hero's Downfall to take out an Anafenza, I'm not developing my board to keep the pressure on. I'd much rather put down Arashin Foremost and give a 1 drop double strike, which can easily trade with the khan if they're willing to make the block. With cards like Siege Rhino and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, they get value before we get a chance to remove, which just makes the matchup harder. Sideboard, I'd much rather use Self-Inflicted Wound over Radiant Purge because I'm getting a removal spell and some damage in.
Both Blood-Chin Rager and Mogis's Marauder grant evasion to multiple threats. If they only gave themselves evasion, I'd completely understand not playing them.
Marauder gives us mass evasion ONCE - and Rager gives evasion only on turns AFTER he is played. Furthermore, Marauder only does this if ALL our drops are at least B. When it comes to a "tide" of creatures coming at us, Azban cannot get a creature threat attacking us until turn 3 at the earliest. A removal spell that takes out their 2 drop + another 2/1 warrior on turn 3 is a very viable play for this deck. If you simply try to "go around" - their removal spell can take out your Blood-Chin Rager ... and the deck's early attack is broken.
Marauder gives us mass evasion ONCE - and Rager gives evasion only on turns AFTER he is played. Furthermore, Marauder only does this if ALL our drops are at least B. When it comes to a "tide" of creatures coming at us, Azban cannot get a creature threat attacking us until turn 3 at the earliest. A removal spell that takes out their 2 drop + another 2/1 warrior on turn 3 is a very viable play for this deck. If you simply try to "go around" - their removal spell can take out your Blood-Chin Rager ... and the deck's early attack is broken.
What you describe sounds closer to a control variant than an aggro variant, which is fine, but it's essentially comparing apples to oranges. Mogis's Marauder only needs to give evasion once - it should be what kills them. If you haven't done that then either the meta isn't right, the cards aren't there or you haven't build your deck correctly. To be honest, I think it's a combination of the first two that prevents Mogis's Marauder being good at the moment.
Blood-Chin Rager however is different. I think people are vastly overstating the fact he doesn't do something the turn he comes down. If you're running a glut of warriors, then the opponent has a choice: he either leaves the Blood-Chin Rager, making blocks very difficult for himself, or he uses removal on him, which is fine with you because you have other cards which can be more of a threat - Arashin Foremost for example. The whole "doesn't do something the turn he is played" is only an issue when top-decking, which, for an aggro-deck, is the signal for defeat anyway.
Quote from Izanamiel »
You're only running a single one drop, and not having a turn 1 play could be why you're losing the race. 1 drop into Chief of the Edge lets the 1 drop trade with any 2 drop abzan can put out and makes it more likely you can get in there for some early points of damage. I definitely see the perks of Whip, but doesn't Sorin accomplish something similar minus being an enchantment? Maybe its just me but I think minimizing the ability of Dromoka's Command to 2 for 1 you is super important. Also you might want to play a singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to ease the pain from fetches/confluence and improve your ability to meet the double black costs of your cards.
Oddly I used to run two one drops (i.e., 8 in total) in a perhaps less suited Mardu aggro deck. I felt it worked better when Sylvan Caryatids were popular and am worried that our single toughness one drops can just get blown away by Red Deck Wins decks, but maybe I'm underestimating them a little in the current meta.
I also didn't really tend to play the Whip of Erebos, because getting back 2/1's is pretty underwhelming. I also wanted to give Sorin, Solemn Visitor some redundancy. I'm aware of the anti-synergy though with Murderous Cut, so maybe going to two one drops and no Whip is a better policy.
Marauder gives us mass evasion ONCE - and Rager gives evasion only on turns AFTER he is played. Furthermore, Marauder only does this if ALL our drops are at least B. When it comes to a "tide" of creatures coming at us, Azban cannot get a creature threat attacking us until turn 3 at the earliest. A removal spell that takes out their 2 drop + another 2/1 warrior on turn 3 is a very viable play for this deck. If you simply try to "go around" - their removal spell can take out your Blood-Chin Rager ... and the deck's early attack is broken.
Mogis's Marauder doesn't even need to give every single creature its evasion buff. If I've had a very good aggressive start, he lets me get in for the last couple of points. Just because he can give everyone intimidate and haste doesn't mean you can't play him until that's the case. He's no Blood-Chin Rager, but he fits an aggro strategy more than another copy of Blood-Chin Fanatic might.
Where your point on removal is concerned, in the early turns if they spent their turn casting a removal spell, they didn't put down a blocker. My 1 drop is still getting in for damage. If they didn't take out my early plays and put down a Rakshasa Deathdealer or Fleecemane Lion, I still get to attack in if I had a t1 play and my t2 play was the rager or Chief of the Edge. If my t3 is Arashin Foremost, i'm pretty far ahead regardless of the scenario. If I have a choice between developing my board and spot removal for this deck in the early turns, I'd pick the former. The 2 cmc removal and a 1 drop on t3 is definitely an option and I'm not saying it's bad, but given that pre-sb your only reasonable 2 cmc removal spell vs abzan on t3 is Bile Blight, the chances of you having both to follow up on a t1 and 2 play aren't that high. So why not have the "go around" option alongside the removal side? Give my list above a try against abzan and try to make the aggressive damage dealing plays, it might change your opinion.
Oddly I used to run two one drops (i.e., 8 in total) in a perhaps less suited Mardu aggro deck. I felt it worked better when Sylvan Caryatids were popular and am worried that our single toughness one drops can just get blown away by Red Deck Wins decks, but maybe I'm underestimating them a little in the current meta.
I also didn't really tend to play the Whip of Erebos, because getting back 2/1's is pretty underwhelming. I also wanted to give Sorin, Solemn Visitor some redundancy. I'm aware of the anti-synergy though with Murderous Cut, so maybe going to two one drops and no Whip is a better policy.
If your meta is full of RDW and Atarka Red, the 1 drops are absolutely terrible, and I wouldn't recommend an aggressive build. Its why I maindeck a few Chief of the Edge to hedge a bit, and sb the Virulent Plagues, which turn a matchup heavily in their favor on its head (assuming its heavy tokens). ZEROorDIE mentioned using Ajani Steadfast as redundancy for pumping creatures (with a bit of lifelink), which could be better than the lifelink + expensive reanimation from Whip.
blood-chin rager, is part of the warrior deck engine. The deck needs 4 of him, and while he will turn on removal, if he sticks for a turn, the potential to go in for 6 with a Chief of the Edge on curve is guaranteed. If your opponent cannot interact quickly enough with your creatures/curve than you will stomp them before they have a chance to stablize (If they run sweepers, that's a whole other story, hence you need Valorous Stance). In my testing and results I haven't had issues vs Abzan lately (The decks psuedo evasion has helped). Once I main decked Chief of the Scale, Drown in Sorrow became less of blow out. I have stated that I'm a Fan of Arashin, but I think that extra reach in the 3-4 drop slot offers the deck more win con variety. Hence Blood-Chin Fanatic is always a 2 of in my deck.
NOTE: Anger of the Gods will completely destroy the deck. SB needs to have minimum 4 Discard spells, and maybe some token, hate. I'm still thinking about this as there is very little we can do to avoid this, maybe the key here is to NOT overextend and drop 1-3 critters and slowly nip them down.
Also, I added Ajani Steadfast weeks ago and that guy combined with Sorin, Solemn Visitor = Bonkers on board. Sure you have over extended a bit, but the deck wants you play out your hand and threats and kill early. Ajani allows you to go Mid-range and into Phase 2 of the game and have outs. Including Ajani offers a serious threat to the opponent as your team will get +1+1 on top on adding Loyalty to Sorin. You add in the synergy he creates on board with the decks built in evasion engine and you get a very well tuned deck that can hold it's own against Mid-range decks.
My current list for FNM and win a box tournments:
(I've never missed a top 4 showing with the deck, and have seen a lot of salty players on the other end. There's this stigma that warriors is just a budget build;in other words they think that it is 2nd tier deck. Sure it doesn't have all the mythics and sweet spells like some current Tier 1 standard decks, but the concept of "tribal" is to create synergy on the board. Hence the more warrior creature out the more their abilities stack, this strategy is the same in Elves, Merfolk and zombies, or whatever other tribal deck you try to create. This one, is actually good in the current standard meta-game. I even had a player chuckle and ask me "What is that your draft deck" and I replied " nope this is the deck I used to go 4-1 tonight". That was before Dragons of Tarkir came out and gave the deck some seriously good tools)
Ajani is my SB, but I'm beginning to feel like he needs to MB and might cut a Brutal Hordechief for it, The chief can swing a game on his own, and VS RDW that life gain is huge. Ajani also helps stbalize in that match up, MY SB is still being tweaked
Deck List:
Lastly, the deck doesn't care about the opponent T1-6. It just wants to win. You swing and get in there, once you get to T6, and the game is still going, that's when your removal and Mid-game plan should go into effect. Namely, some recursion with Bloodsoaked Champion, sacking creatures to Blood-Chin Fanatic (This has won me so many games, need to hit the opponent for 2 pts of even 1, trigger raid, get champion back, sack.) If they have used removal, (and they will) you might have a Hordechief to use with his ability, (i've gotten there a lot) and you just say "Excuse, me coming through!" lol If you go into Phase 3, you will lose, this deck isn't set up to go late, (Abzan is though).
Just some thoughts from my experiences piloting the deck.
Its not going to lose much from it... at least from my version. Will need something to deal with planeswalkers as downfall is leaving.
1 Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scoured Barrens
4 Nomad Outpost
3 Bloodsoaked Champion
3 Mardu Woe-Reaper
3 Battle Brawler
3 Chief of the Edge
3 Arashin Foremost
3 Blood Chin Fanatic
2 Atheros, God of Passage
2 Spear of Heliod
3 Banishing Light
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
3 Ultimate Price
3 Bile Blight
3 Valorous Stance
3 Radiant Purge
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Brutal Hordechief
3 Outpost Siege
Black/White Warriors centric; with a splash of red for probably the most powerful draw card in standard from the sideboard.
You'll probably want to replace some of those etb tapped lands. I like the idea of splashing red, but I think this deck does best when it can drop as much as possible within the first 2 turns. You could run a few mana confluences, and bloodstained (if you've got the cash - mana confluence is high considering it's city of ass 99.9% of the time). This opens up outpost, chandra, and lots o' burn.
3 Dragon Hunter
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
2 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
Creatures (2-drop)
4 Blood-Chin Rager
4 Chief of the Edge
Creatures (3-drop)
4 Arashin Foremost
Creatures (4-drop)
2 Brutal Hordechief
Other spells
2 Foul-Tongue Shriek
4 Valorous Stance
2 Bile Blight
2 Spear of Heliod
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Temple of Silence
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Virulent Plague
2 Merciless Executioner
2 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Erase
2 End Hostilities
1 Dictate of Heliod
2 Return to the Ranks
I have some trouble with hard removal though, Return to the Ranks is in the sideboard to try and cover that problem, but I have not tested it yet.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/05-05-15-KhM-bw-warriors/ is the list I've been playing so far
on the fence about the number of temples/mana confluences for the lands, side board is still really flexible depending on the meta, I'm interested in trying chief of the scale on the board.
Main deck I'm still balancing the amount of finishers/removal/one drops but I think the deck needs to stay low to the ground.
If I get a tapland t1, then a Battle Brawler t2, Arashin Foremost t3, t4 Chief of the Edge, Spear of Heliod or Sorin = 6 Damage turn 3, and a potentially fatal turn 4 for opponent. At 2RR Chandra is not a card I see as workable in a splash.
3 2/1 drops on turns 1 and 2 is valid when you follow that up with a "booster" turn 3 (Chief of the Edge and/or Spear of Heliod); but you have to watch out for sweepers. Getting hit with a 4 for 1 can wind up being a lost game quickly. Simply having chief of edge catch a wild slash before the beginning of combat on turn 3 has the same effect. Making that version of the deck work really needs to leverage on the discard in the archetype to keep sweepers out of hand.
To be honest, I would have to run Sidisi, Undead Vizier as a 1 of in place of 1 Sorin before and run just 1 Mana confluence for a scoured barrens instead of the 8 taplands. The late game tutor exploit can be a "complete the combo" to get our red producing land, as well as possibly pull the red card if we need that done. If not - Sidisi can simply find Sorin. The fact he is a 4/6 body with deathtouch is even better.
In building this Deck we have a critical card in Virulent Plague. Plague does not play well with token generating cards, and there are quite a few, especially if we go to full mardu colors and splash red. Pre-Rotation, I am running 15+ removal spells main + the 2 Spear of Heliod and Sorin, Solemn Visitor as potential removal. This is WITHOUT main-decking Hero's Downfall, or Having Utter End anywhere in the 75.
I think you have a point there. I must admit that maybe I'm biased toward foul-tongue shriek because, in some specific situations it has winned me one or two games, but I'm not really sure if the result wouldn't have been the same if I hadn't that card in my hand. I'll try replacing it for other cards and see what happens, maybe I have underrated secure the wastes, I guess I will test it and see if it can be the answer I've been searching for hard removal.
About Chief of the Scale, in my list at least, although it offers a big body and great effect, they are not that big to solve problems that spear of heliod solves in a better way. I know it means one less creature for the deck, but it is harder to remove (1st game at least) and it adds to the aggro focus that the deck wants.
In spite of the mana base, I have found that it is not the biggest deal to have 2 or 3 (maybe even 4) taplands that offer both mana colors: you could have the worst "luck" and draw three taplands in you first hand and not be able to cast your one-drops, but the probability for that is really low. You will prefer having having a tapland and being able to cast everything in your hand soon or later (the sooner the better) than having two swamps and a plains in play and two Arashin Foremost sitting in your hand.
I previously had a manabase with no temples and now I'm currently testing a manabase with 2 temples (the one in my list), then I'll test one with 4 temples but just 20 lands. I've seen an improvement in consistency, problems like the one I described above are much less frequent now.
I'll post again when I get more results.
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Dragon Hunter
3 Mardu Woe-Reaper
3 Blood-Chin Rager
4 Arashin Foremost
2 Brutal Hordechief
2 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Obelisk of Urd
2 Bile Blight
2 Valorous Stance
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Hero's Downfall
6 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Mana Confluence
2 Banishing Light
3 Surge of Righteousness
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Return to the Ranks
4 Duress
My Theros-M15-Khans-Origins Cube (Trimming)
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
2 Dragon Hunter
4 Chief of the Edge
2 Chief of the Scale
4 Blood-Chin Rager
4 Arashin Foremost
3 Mogis's Marauder
2 Blood-Chin Fanatic
9 Spells:
2 Valorous Stance
2 Ultimate Price
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Secure the Wastes
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Mana Confluence
7 Plains
6 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Athreos, God of Passage
1 Chief of the Scale
1 Hall of Triumph
2 Mardu Shadowspear
1 Mardu Strike Leader
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
1 Swamp
2 Thoughtseize
3 Virulent Plague
I've gone with a very low curve aggro build, since I think curving out quick and hard is the way to go with this deck. The most important advantage we have is making combat difficult for the opponent, between Blood-Chin Rager and Mogis's Marauder. While the manabase looks a bit painful between the full 4 confluences and caves, the goal is to kill your opponent as fast as possible so your life total isn't really a big deal, plus Mardu Woe-Reaper keeps us afloat a bit. The worst card for this to go up against is Anger of the Gods, but you still have the ability to fight through it. If you know your opponent is playing early 1/3s, look for an opening hand that has chiefs/ragers so you can run over it instead of having to set yourself back to remove it or holding off on an attack.
Sideboard choices:
1 Athreos, God of Passage
Lets us play a long game with the decks that want to trade 1 for 1.
1 Chief of the Scale
Helps the x/2s dodge Drown in Sorrow, lets our x/1s eat 1/1 tokens that give this deck problems, and lets the x/2s dodge 2 damage removal.
1 Hall of Triumph
It would be Spear of Heliod if Dromoka's Command wasn't a thing. Has the same function as chief of the scale, helps our creatures trade with x/3s as well. Not a necessary sb card.
2 Mardu Shadowspear
Still the equivalent of a 2/1 in control matchups, but the dashing lets us get some hasty points of damage in and dodge sorcery speed wipes.
1 Mardu Strike Leader
Also a dasher. This card is just too slow, and I rarely want to cast him as a 3 drop. Definitely not necessary in the sb.
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
Great for the G/x decks, significantly better than any of our other removal due to the 2 life loss clause.
1 Swamp
Brought in over a plains when a lot of the black heavy sideboard is brought in
2 Thoughtseize
Brought in to disrupt plans to stabilize with a sweeper, and as a catchall if you run into something unfamiliar.
3 Virulent Plague
Brought in vs token strategies, which are very strong against us. Blanking a decent portion of the opponent's deck is also great for us.
Notable Exclusions
Brutal Hordechief: It was either this or Sorin, Solemn Visitor. They both can have an effect when they hit the field, but Sorin hedges better against sweepers.
Temple of Silence: Tapped lands are pretty bad here as they prevent us from curving out quickly. With 10 1 drops and 10 2 drops I pretty much always want to have a t1 followed by a t2 play. Playing these slows this deck down and makes hands where temples are the only land much worse.
Bile Blight: I've tried to minimalize the cards with double color costs I play to make the mana smoother. Ultimate Price and Valorous Stance tend to do the same thing I need as Blight without a heavy color investment. If I maindecked Mardu Shadowspear over Dragon Hunter and increased the number of black producing lands, I could see myself playing these instead of price.
Foul-Tongue Shriek: I do think this deck would love reach. This unfortunately is not the reach I'm looking for as it's a dead card if I run into a sweeper early on. Given the worst case scenario is a Drown in Sorrow or Anger of the Gods on t3, I want to be drawing threats to repopulate the board.
Obelisk of Urd: Too slow. I believe it was discussed earlier in this thread, you don't want to be tapping your creatures to cast something, you want to be attacking.
Some Matchups and Sideboarding
Esper Dragons
Pre-board, they generally don't maindeck Drown in Sorrow, so you want to try and rush them the first few turns before they hit Crux of Fate mana. If you don't make it, the game gets a lot rougher but still doable with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Secure the Wastes, as well as recurring Bloodsoaked Champions. Just watch out for early Bile Blights and avoid playing duplicates when you can. I'd say g1 is about 50/50.
Post-board:
-2 Dragon Hunter
-1 Plains
-2 Blood-Chin Fanatic
-2 Ultimate Price
-1 Valorous Stance
+2 Mardu Shadowspear
+1 Swamp
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Athreos, God of Passage
+1 Chief of the Edge
+1 Mardu Strike Leader
The dragon hunters come out and the shadowspears come in to have a dasher after a sweeper. The same applies to the strike leader (which I don't like and will probably take it out of the board in the future. Fanatic is fine in this matchup since the strike leader doesn't have that big of an impact in this matchup). Small plains for swamp swap given the number of black cards I bring in over white. Price and Stance aren't that great here, I leave one stance in cause it's not completely dead. Athreos lets you play the long game if you can't kill them fast enough. The third Chief of the Edge comes in so your x/2s can dodge Drown in Sorrow. Lastly, Thoughtseize so you can snag a sweeper or Elspeth, Sun's Champion on a critical turn. Postboard is still 50/50 given how strong a good Drown can be (which they're sure to bring in 2-3).
Abzan Midrange
Pre-board:
Blood-Chin Rager is our best card here, you can quickly put them on the defensive. Chief of the Edge lets us attack into fleecemanes and caryatids (i'm not opposed to trading a 1 drop for either one). Chief of the Scale makes a small showing maindeck to avoid mained Drown in Sorrows, as well as lets our x/2s attack into their 2/x dudes. From my experience the g1 has been a decent matchup as long as they don't play consecutive rhinos.
Post-board:
-2 Ultimate Price
-1 Mogis's Marauder
-1 Dragon Hunter
-2 Valorous Stance
+1 Athreos, God of Passage
+1 Hall of Triumph
+1 Chief of the Scale
+3 Self-Inflicted Wound
Price and Stance aren't as good as Wound here for this style of deck. Extra damage off of removal is exactly what we want. Athreos comes in in case the game goes long. Hall and Chief come in to dodge Drowns, and to better trade dudes with their slightly heavier hitters. 1 Marauder comes out since they do play some black creatures, but I don't mind drawing one in combination with Blood-Chin Rager to get in additional hard to block damage towards the end game. A Dragon Hunter comes out for the Chief of the Scale since the two drops are more valuable in a matchup where your opponent brings in Drowns. I could see switching out a plains for a swamp here for this sideboarding plan as well. Matchup improves postboard thanks to Wound mostly.
Abzan aggro is similar, except i leave in the stances and dragon hunter, and cut the Mogis's Marauders given they play more black creatures.
Atarka Aggro
Pre-Board: Definitely a difficult matchup g1 since we're inherently weak to token strategies. It's hard fighting through the tokens with your x/1s and rager, and they hit hard if they get in with tokens and Atarka's Command. Keeping a Chief of the Scale alive lets you eat tokens far better. Mardu Woe-Reaper gives some life gain to keep you afloat. If they stumble you can likely win the race, and Sorin tends to put you out of their reach. Secure the Wastes is great here if you can surprise a token army without command support. Regardless, I feel g1 is 35/65 in their favor.
Post-Board:
-2 Secure the Wastes
-2 Valorous Stance
+3 Virulent Plague
+1 Chief of the Scale
Virulent Plague might as well read "you win the game" here. Without a flood of tokens to block or put major pressure on you, you out-aggro them. They suffer a major tempo loss as well if they play a t3 Hordeling Outburst, and you follow up with a plague. Secure the Wastes is a nonbo with plague here, and stance only has one mode in this matchup, so they come out. Post-board games are the ones you can really count on winning, so don't invest a whole lot into g1.
Overall I'm pretty happy with where this deck is, and the sideboard has some flex slots. I didn't test with Brutal Hordechief a lot so there's not much I can say on it except it looks alright on paper. I probably wouldn't play this in a meta where everyone has Anger of the Gods, as that is far more difficult to fight through than Drown in Sorrow or any of the higher cost sweepers since it takes out your Bloodsoaked Champions. If the mana could support Dromoka's Command, I would definitely try and get it to fit since it really improves the red matchups.
I played against a G/W Warriors deck like 3 or 4 days ago, and Dromoka's Command, Warden of the First Tree, Surrak, the Hunt Caller and Collected Company were the best cards in it. I lost 1-2, I felt like I was fighting for the honor of this deck, the first match was long and I just lost to a 14/14 trample warden, second game I crushed him in 4 turns, but then, third game, he played a Collected Company and brought 2 Arashin Foremost to the battlefield... couldn't attack nor block well, I had cards to remove just one of the Arashins, there is little more to say. If there is a splash card I would want to try it would be Collected Company, hands down. Anyways, I agree it's green and not red the color I would like to splash into this deck, Command also ables a lot of one for two interactions that would be awesome for us.
This is what I've been playing
2 Dragon Hunter
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
Creatures (2-drop)
4 Blood-Chin Rager
4 Chief of the Edge
3 Seeker of the Way
Creatures (3-drop)
4 Arashin Foremost
Creatures (4-drop)
2 Brutal Hordechief
Other Spells
3 Valorous Stance
3 Ultimate Price
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Spear of Heliod
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Temple of Silence
7 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Virulent Plague
2 Athreos, God of Passage
1 End Hostilities
2 Radiant Purge
2 Merciless Executioner
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Blood-Chin Fanatic
The sideboard needs to be worked on a little more, it seems like it's a little biased against Abzan... and it is.
I don't have any problem against UBx control, nor dragons, not even against tokens: with the removal and spells I have in the maindeck I can trade very well with goblins, monks, etc... Abzan is just my nemesis, I don't know if it is just by chance, but my opponent always seem to just make their game and flood the battlefield with creatures I can't manage... It's always fine until they get like three Rhinos or three (or even four) Whisperwood Elementals (has anyone encountered that match? a ton of manifested 2/2 every turn? how do you deal with it?). And it is not like they (or I) do nothing util the fourth o fifth turn, it just that they take the damage and then ramp leaving behind Caryatids, Coursers, Fleecemanes, and then, surprise, Rhinos and Elementals. I know it's part playing the right cards, but I feel like I want to have a hand full of removal everytime I see a Sansteppe Citadel come down in the first or second turn...
*sigh* Anyways, I think you have made a clear point on how "not" to deal with abzan, never thought about bringing in something instead of the Spears, I think maybe it's there were the Chief of the Scale could fit, also, I haven't tried Mogi's Marauder and it could be the last piece I have been looking for in the maindeck.
I have to comment: against what I had tought, Secure the Wastes is just awesome, it's is basically the main answer for everything: rebuild, surprise block (removal-like) and a finisher. Seeker of the way entered my maindeck because of the number of non-creature spells I'm running, and it has been doing VERY well.
My results: I'm lately playing just in Magic Online, I can say I win 90% of the "Tournament Practice" Games I play, and the only official tournament (a Sandard Daily) I have played went 2-2, Fist match lose against Abzan midrange, second match win against UB control, third match lose against G/W manifest and then played just for practice, fourth match win against RDW, full of goblin tokens.
Mogis's Marauder has definitely pulled its weight from what I've found. If they tap out for a Whisperwood, I can put down Marauder to bypass the bodies it makes for the finish. Having some maindeck haste is great for the control matchup as well.
Maybe its just me but I found Valorous Stance rather lackluster in the majority of my matches and would almost always rather have something else (if you notice I side it out in most of my matches, even against Abzan, since wound is much better).
I'll agree with you on Secure the Wastes. I had my doubts about it, but I do like drawing it towards the end of a match. X for just 2 or 3 at EOT with or followed by a buffer can steal games.
Against Abzan and Devotion type decks, keep their creatures off the table so Dromoka's command stays in their hand. They need a creature to play Dromoka's command ON for the spell to be playable - we have no burn spell in deck. Stupid concept here... but why run Evasion creatures such as Blood-Chin Rager and Mogis Marauder when we have removal spells to simply destroy would be blockers in the first place?
Most decks I am seeing run at least 6 removal spells, and 6 "evasion" creatures... I think 12+ Removal would be better.
My Anti-Abzan cards and removal suite main board:
I keep 3 Radiant Purge sideboard for the Valorous Stances in the "multicolor heavy" variant; and If your meta is full of Abzan and Stormbreath dragon - Hero's Downfall is better than Banishing light. Banishing is better against "fringe threats" as a catch all removal spell at sorcery speed. It has the drawback of being vulnerable to removal - but a corner case of helping in our devotion count for Athreos, God of Passage to offset that risk. Sideboard, Radiant Purge can be exchanged for Bile Blight.
I understand your point about Blood-Chin Rager, but you forget that he affects all your warriors, not just himself. Further if you're playing the aggro game then your game needs to be about pressure and constantly applying that pressure whenever you can - this is why evasive creatures are so important. With Blood-Chin Rager you can play it turn two and if they don't find an answer to him and/or keep two creatures on the battlefield, you can maintain pressure. Applying this pressure is, typically, more important than just removing their threats. So, ideally, you want to be able to do both where and when you can and you want to be playing creatures that can apply pressure with less help from you.
I keep changing my list... like all the time. I can never get 100% happy with it. Either way, this is where I am:
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Blood-Chin Rager
4 Herald of Torment
4 Arashin Foremost
2 Blood-Chin Fanatic
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Spear of Heliod
Instant:
2 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Murderous Cut
Planeswalker:
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Boodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Mana Confluence
3 Temple of Silence
3 Plains
7 Swamp
The Whip of Erebos might seem strange but an issue I had was falling behind in the race, especially against Abzan, well, against Siege Rhino. Then I realised that against a number of decks Whip of Erebos is still good - it helps in the Abzan matchup, it allows redundancy against control and can help stabilize against burn. Plus a number of creatures I run are effective from its recursion ability, namely Arashin Foremost and Blood-Chin Rager, although Chief of the Edge and the flying Herald of Torment aren't awful either.
It might perhaps make sense to ditch Blood-Chin Fanatic perhaps for Mogis's Marauder, just as a more instant effect that has better synergy with the Whip of Erebos. However Blood-Chin Fanatic also has synergy with Herald of Torment's bestow ability.
4x dragon hunter
2x Mardu woe-reaper
4x bloodsoaked champion
2x hidden dragonslayer
3x blood-chin rager
4x chief of the edge
1x chief of the scale
2x blood-chin fanatic
4x arashin foremost
Spells(6)
2x valorous stance
2x ultimate price
2x secure the wastes
2x ajani steadfast
2x sorin, solemn visitor
Lands(24)
6x plains
5x swamp
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4x temple of silence
4x caves of koilos
4x mana confluence
2x duress
2x suspension field
2x radiant purge
2x chief of the scale
2x Mardu strike leader
2x athreos, god of passage
1x utter end
2x obelisk of urd
Took third with this list at a local place this weekend. Didn't have the toughest matchups this weekend though.
Mono black aggro 2-0
Mono red aggro 2-1
Abzan control 1-2(sideboarded all wrong against this. I brought in removal when I should have brought in anthems and chief of scale.)
Comments:
I had tried jamming different warrior builds before DTK and it just wasn't there. I think this deck is pretty strong and fairly well position right now. I've been playing 4 planes walkers to increase the chances of a turn 4 kill, which I have been able to get fairly consistantly thus far. I had been testing with 3 secure the wastes, but its really something I don't want in my opening hand so I've cut that to two.
Dragons seem to have dropped of a bit in my meta so I think I'll be trading two dragon hunter for two Mardu woe-reaper. The life loss from lands is pretty substantial with this deck, so every point gained is critical should the game go past turn 4/5. The SB duress were erase, but with only a few dangerous enchantments floating around, duress seems better. May switch that to thoughtseize if I encounter more scenarios where I need to remove a creature, just want to be careful of adding any more painful cards.
Overall, its just a fun deck to play. Unfortunately it suffers from the same removal that red aggro does, but without the burn spells to back it up, so I may start testing a single spear of Heliod as well.
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Blood-Chin Rager
4 Hearld of Torment
4 Arashin Foremost
2 Blood-Chin Fanatic
3 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2 Whip of Erebos
2 Spear of Heliod
Instants:
2 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Valorous Stance
Planeswalker:
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Nomad Outpost
4 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Manabase count:
9 Red Sources
12 White Sources
16 Black Sources
4 Taplands, drop Nomad outpost for Mana Confluence if you must.
Ok, 2 changes to the play of the deck - and radical changes to mana base.
Murderous Cut is bad in that it reduces the number of fuel cards for whip and Alesha - so this is not something I would want to see.
Valorous Stance is the card "opposite" Bile Blight.
Alesha, Who Smiles at Death:
1 A first Strike capability
2 Additional Graveyard recursion other than Whip
3 Is still a warrior that contributes to synergy
Like Karloski said, applying pressure is more important then removing threats. If i'm tapping out turn 3 for something like Hero's Downfall to take out an Anafenza, I'm not developing my board to keep the pressure on. I'd much rather put down Arashin Foremost and give a 1 drop double strike, which can easily trade with the khan if they're willing to make the block. With cards like Siege Rhino and Elspeth, Sun's Champion, they get value before we get a chance to remove, which just makes the matchup harder. Sideboard, I'd much rather use Self-Inflicted Wound over Radiant Purge because I'm getting a removal spell and some damage in.
Both Blood-Chin Rager and Mogis's Marauder grant evasion to multiple threats. If they only gave themselves evasion, I'd completely understand not playing them.
You're only running a single one drop, and not having a turn 1 play could be why you're losing the race. 1 drop into Chief of the Edge lets the 1 drop trade with any 2 drop abzan can put out and makes it more likely you can get in there for some early points of damage. I definitely see the perks of Whip, but doesn't Sorin accomplish something similar minus being an enchantment? Maybe its just me but I think minimizing the ability of Dromoka's Command to 2 for 1 you is super important. Also you might want to play a singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to ease the pain from fetches/confluence and improve your ability to meet the double black costs of your cards.
I'm curious, how has Ajani Steadfast been performing for you? Is having a permanent +1/+1 bonus better than Sorin's +1?
Another reason I run both is in case I draw into multiples, gives me better odds of being able to have two planeswalkers out and boosting my guys simultaneously.
To put it plainly, I'm never upset to see one of either in my first 10 cards. Hope this helps.
Marauder gives us mass evasion ONCE - and Rager gives evasion only on turns AFTER he is played. Furthermore, Marauder only does this if ALL our drops are at least B. When it comes to a "tide" of creatures coming at us, Azban cannot get a creature threat attacking us until turn 3 at the earliest. A removal spell that takes out their 2 drop + another 2/1 warrior on turn 3 is a very viable play for this deck. If you simply try to "go around" - their removal spell can take out your Blood-Chin Rager ... and the deck's early attack is broken.
What you describe sounds closer to a control variant than an aggro variant, which is fine, but it's essentially comparing apples to oranges. Mogis's Marauder only needs to give evasion once - it should be what kills them. If you haven't done that then either the meta isn't right, the cards aren't there or you haven't build your deck correctly. To be honest, I think it's a combination of the first two that prevents Mogis's Marauder being good at the moment.
Blood-Chin Rager however is different. I think people are vastly overstating the fact he doesn't do something the turn he comes down. If you're running a glut of warriors, then the opponent has a choice: he either leaves the Blood-Chin Rager, making blocks very difficult for himself, or he uses removal on him, which is fine with you because you have other cards which can be more of a threat - Arashin Foremost for example. The whole "doesn't do something the turn he is played" is only an issue when top-decking, which, for an aggro-deck, is the signal for defeat anyway.
Oddly I used to run two one drops (i.e., 8 in total) in a perhaps less suited Mardu aggro deck. I felt it worked better when Sylvan Caryatids were popular and am worried that our single toughness one drops can just get blown away by Red Deck Wins decks, but maybe I'm underestimating them a little in the current meta.
I also didn't really tend to play the Whip of Erebos, because getting back 2/1's is pretty underwhelming. I also wanted to give Sorin, Solemn Visitor some redundancy. I'm aware of the anti-synergy though with Murderous Cut, so maybe going to two one drops and no Whip is a better policy.
Mogis's Marauder doesn't even need to give every single creature its evasion buff. If I've had a very good aggressive start, he lets me get in for the last couple of points. Just because he can give everyone intimidate and haste doesn't mean you can't play him until that's the case. He's no Blood-Chin Rager, but he fits an aggro strategy more than another copy of Blood-Chin Fanatic might.
Where your point on removal is concerned, in the early turns if they spent their turn casting a removal spell, they didn't put down a blocker. My 1 drop is still getting in for damage. If they didn't take out my early plays and put down a Rakshasa Deathdealer or Fleecemane Lion, I still get to attack in if I had a t1 play and my t2 play was the rager or Chief of the Edge. If my t3 is Arashin Foremost, i'm pretty far ahead regardless of the scenario. If I have a choice between developing my board and spot removal for this deck in the early turns, I'd pick the former. The 2 cmc removal and a 1 drop on t3 is definitely an option and I'm not saying it's bad, but given that pre-sb your only reasonable 2 cmc removal spell vs abzan on t3 is Bile Blight, the chances of you having both to follow up on a t1 and 2 play aren't that high. So why not have the "go around" option alongside the removal side? Give my list above a try against abzan and try to make the aggressive damage dealing plays, it might change your opinion.
If your meta is full of RDW and Atarka Red, the 1 drops are absolutely terrible, and I wouldn't recommend an aggressive build. Its why I maindeck a few Chief of the Edge to hedge a bit, and sb the Virulent Plagues, which turn a matchup heavily in their favor on its head (assuming its heavy tokens). ZEROorDIE mentioned using Ajani Steadfast as redundancy for pumping creatures (with a bit of lifelink), which could be better than the lifelink + expensive reanimation from Whip.
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Mana Confluence
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
4 Plains
6 Swamp
Creature (27)
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
3 Dragon Hunter
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Chief of the Edge
2 Chief of the Scale
4 Blood-Chin Rager
4 Arashin Foremost
2 Mogis's Marauder
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Instant (9)
1 Utter End
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Collected Company
1 Dromoka's Command
4 Duress
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Dromoka's Command
1 Radiant Purge
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Virulent Plague
1 Ultimate Price
NOTE: Anger of the Gods will completely destroy the deck. SB needs to have minimum 4 Discard spells, and maybe some token, hate. I'm still thinking about this as there is very little we can do to avoid this, maybe the key here is to NOT overextend and drop 1-3 critters and slowly nip them down.
Also, I added Ajani Steadfast weeks ago and that guy combined with Sorin, Solemn Visitor = Bonkers on board. Sure you have over extended a bit, but the deck wants you play out your hand and threats and kill early. Ajani allows you to go Mid-range and into Phase 2 of the game and have outs. Including Ajani offers a serious threat to the opponent as your team will get +1+1 on top on adding Loyalty to Sorin. You add in the synergy he creates on board with the decks built in evasion engine and you get a very well tuned deck that can hold it's own against Mid-range decks.
My current list for FNM and win a box tournments:
(I've never missed a top 4 showing with the deck, and have seen a lot of salty players on the other end. There's this stigma that warriors is just a budget build;in other words they think that it is 2nd tier deck. Sure it doesn't have all the mythics and sweet spells like some current Tier 1 standard decks, but the concept of "tribal" is to create synergy on the board. Hence the more warrior creature out the more their abilities stack, this strategy is the same in Elves, Merfolk and zombies, or whatever other tribal deck you try to create. This one, is actually good in the current standard meta-game. I even had a player chuckle and ask me "What is that your draft deck" and I replied " nope this is the deck I used to go 4-1 tonight". That was before Dragons of Tarkir came out and gave the deck some seriously good tools)
Ajani is my SB, but I'm beginning to feel like he needs to MB and might cut a Brutal Hordechief for it, The chief can swing a game on his own, and VS RDW that life gain is huge. Ajani also helps stbalize in that match up, MY SB is still being tweaked
Deck List:
2x Arashin Foremost
2x Blood-Chin Fanatic
4x Blood-Chin Rager
4x Bloodsoaked Champion
3x Brutal Hordechief
4x Chief of the Edge
4x Chief of the Scale
2x Mardu Shadowspear
2x Mardu Woe-Reaper
3x Mogis's Marauder
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Mana Confluence
6x Plains
6x Swamp
2x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instant (5)
3x Hero's Downfall
2x Valorous Stance
Planeswalker (2)
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Ajani Steadfast
2x Athreos, God of Passage
3x Bile Blight
3x Self-Inflicted Wound
4x Thoughtseize
1x Valorous Stance
Lastly, the deck doesn't care about the opponent T1-6. It just wants to win. You swing and get in there, once you get to T6, and the game is still going, that's when your removal and Mid-game plan should go into effect. Namely, some recursion with Bloodsoaked Champion, sacking creatures to Blood-Chin Fanatic (This has won me so many games, need to hit the opponent for 2 pts of even 1, trigger raid, get champion back, sack.) If they have used removal, (and they will) you might have a Hordechief to use with his ability, (i've gotten there a lot) and you just say "Excuse, me coming through!" lol If you go into Phase 3, you will lose, this deck isn't set up to go late, (Abzan is though).
Just some thoughts from my experiences piloting the deck.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn