Here's my take on Orzhov Warriors. Might just be lucky draws in playtesting, but I'm routinely getting Mardu Strike Leader and Brutal Hordechief out on curve, with predictable results. This feels kinda like Abzan Aggro to me - it's clearly not a midrange deck, but it goes for bigger creatures than a typical aggro deck. The biggest effect of this divergence is that it completely eschews a t1 play, opting instead for a perfect mana base from a fixing standpoint.
Chiefs - Pretty self-explanatory. You don't run a B/W Warriors deck without efficient 2-drop BW warriors that boost the P/T of all other warriors.
Brawler - This guy is filler/backup play on any given turn. T2 he's a decent enough body that can buy a little time to find Chiefs/Strike Leader. T3 he becomes a 3/3 or 4/2 first striker that again buys time to find the bigger threats. T4 and beyond he's just a solid backup. I really like him because one Chief of the Edge turns him into a trading machine, able to go toe-to-toe with Courser of Kruphix and come out on top. 2 Chiefs makes him capable of downing a Siege Rhino and walking away unscathed. Etc. He's not integral to the game plan, so if we need to cut something from this list then he's on the table, but I think he rounds out the 2-drop beater spot pretty well.
Strike Leader - Also self-explanatory, 3/2 Warrior for 3 that pumps out more Warriors, all getting boosted by Chiefs, Heliod and Obelisk for mondo damage.
Athreos - He's a last-second inclusion and prime cut material for improving this deck. His role is pretty obvious, and it's not hard to make him a creature, but it's not clear whether his ability actually provides that much. Theoretically most of your deaths here should be the creature tokens instead of the actual creatures, especially once Athreos comes out and your opponent plays around it. I really like the choice that's supposed to be forced on the opponent, but it's an open question as to whether your opponent will actually have to make that choice much.
Downfall - Self-explanatory.
Heliod - Constant +1/+1 and circumstantial spot removal for 3 mana? Sign me up.
Hordechief - This guy is filthy. Our stat boosters quickly make him into a huge body for 4 cmc, and his lifeswing potential with tokens is through the roof. The fact that multiple versions of him can be on the field at once puts him over the top.
Sorin - Even more lifegain.
The Roc - Not a Warrior, but it brings solid evasion and obscene lifegain potential with all the tokens being pumped out. Good enough to be included on policy if it fits into our mana base, and it does.
Obelisk - Self-explanatory. Strike Leader tokens make great Convoke bait.
Thoughts on how to change this up? There's room to pull several cards out of here for other stuff, and I haven't given any real thought to a sideboard yet.
Here's my take on Orzhov Warriors. Might just be lucky draws in playtesting, but I'm routinely getting Mardu Strike Leader and Brutal Hordechief out on curve, with predictable results. This feels kinda like Abzan Aggro to me - it's clearly not a midrange deck, but it goes for bigger creatures than a typical aggro deck. The biggest effect of this divergence is that it completely eschews a t1 play, opting instead for a perfect mana base from a fixing standpoint.
Chiefs - Pretty self-explanatory. You don't run a B/W Warriors deck without efficient 2-drop BW warriors that boost the P/T of all other warriors.
Brawler - This guy is filler/backup play on any given turn. T2 he's a decent enough body that can buy a little time to find Chiefs/Strike Leader. T3 he becomes a 3/3 or 4/2 first striker that again buys time to find the bigger threats. T4 and beyond he's just a solid backup. I really like him because one Chief of the Edge turns him into a trading machine, able to go toe-to-toe with Courser of Kruphix and come out on top. 2 Chiefs makes him capable of downing a Siege Rhino and walking away unscathed. Etc. He's not integral to the game plan, so if we need to cut something from this list then he's on the table, but I think he rounds out the 2-drop beater spot pretty well.
Strike Leader - Also self-explanatory, 3/2 Warrior for 3 that pumps out more Warriors, all getting boosted by Chiefs, Heliod and Obelisk for mondo damage.
Athreos - He's a last-second inclusion and prime cut material for improving this deck. His role is pretty obvious, and it's not hard to make him a creature, but it's not clear whether his ability actually provides that much. Theoretically most of your deaths here should be the creature tokens instead of the actual creatures, especially once Athreos comes out and your opponent plays around it. I really like the choice that's supposed to be forced on the opponent, but it's an open question as to whether your opponent will actually have to make that choice much.
Downfall - Self-explanatory.
Heliod - Constant +1/+1 and circumstantial spot removal for 3 mana? Sign me up.
Hordechief - This guy is filthy. Our stat boosters quickly make him into a huge body for 4 cmc, and his lifeswing potential with tokens is through the roof. The fact that multiple versions of him can be on the field at once puts him over the top.
Sorin - Even more lifegain.
The Roc - Not a Warrior, but it brings solid evasion and obscene lifegain potential with all the tokens being pumped out. Good enough to be included on policy if it fits into our mana base, and it does.
Obelisk - Self-explanatory. Strike Leader tokens make great Convoke bait.
Thoughts on how to change this up? There's room to pull several cards out of here for other stuff, and I haven't given any real thought to a sideboard yet.
With 16 lands that come in tapped there's no way this works efficiently. I have found that since we run two colors and most of our cards (aside from BB/WW cards) cost xW or xB, running 4 Caves + 4 Temple/Barrens + Plains/Swamp is the best. You will barely miss your lands, and you will be able to cast something each turn without having a tapped land in play. Mana Confluence is fine at 1-2 copies but I find myself not needing it and taking the extra damage for no reason.
Here's my take on Orzhov Warriors. Might just be lucky draws in playtesting, but I'm routinely getting Mardu Strike Leader and Brutal Hordechief out on curve, with predictable results. This feels kinda like Abzan Aggro to me - it's clearly not a midrange deck, but it goes for bigger creatures than a typical aggro deck. The biggest effect of this divergence is that it completely eschews a t1 play, opting instead for a perfect mana base from a fixing standpoint.
Chiefs - Pretty self-explanatory. You don't run a B/W Warriors deck without efficient 2-drop BW warriors that boost the P/T of all other warriors.
Brawler - This guy is filler/backup play on any given turn. T2 he's a decent enough body that can buy a little time to find Chiefs/Strike Leader. T3 he becomes a 3/3 or 4/2 first striker that again buys time to find the bigger threats. T4 and beyond he's just a solid backup. I really like him because one Chief of the Edge turns him into a trading machine, able to go toe-to-toe with Courser of Kruphix and come out on top. 2 Chiefs makes him capable of downing a Siege Rhino and walking away unscathed. Etc. He's not integral to the game plan, so if we need to cut something from this list then he's on the table, but I think he rounds out the 2-drop beater spot pretty well.
Strike Leader - Also self-explanatory, 3/2 Warrior for 3 that pumps out more Warriors, all getting boosted by Chiefs, Heliod and Obelisk for mondo damage.
Athreos - He's a last-second inclusion and prime cut material for improving this deck. His role is pretty obvious, and it's not hard to make him a creature, but it's not clear whether his ability actually provides that much. Theoretically most of your deaths here should be the creature tokens instead of the actual creatures, especially once Athreos comes out and your opponent plays around it. I really like the choice that's supposed to be forced on the opponent, but it's an open question as to whether your opponent will actually have to make that choice much.
Downfall - Self-explanatory.
Heliod - Constant +1/+1 and circumstantial spot removal for 3 mana? Sign me up.
Hordechief - This guy is filthy. Our stat boosters quickly make him into a huge body for 4 cmc, and his lifeswing potential with tokens is through the roof. The fact that multiple versions of him can be on the field at once puts him over the top.
Sorin - Even more lifegain.
The Roc - Not a Warrior, but it brings solid evasion and obscene lifegain potential with all the tokens being pumped out. Good enough to be included on policy if it fits into our mana base, and it does.
Obelisk - Self-explanatory. Strike Leader tokens make great Convoke bait.
Thoughts on how to change this up? There's room to pull several cards out of here for other stuff, and I haven't given any real thought to a sideboard yet.
With 16 lands that come in tapped there's no way this works efficiently. I have found that since we run two colors and most of our cards (aside from BB/WW cards) cost xW or xB, running 4 Caves + 4 Temple/Barrens + Plains/Swamp is the best. You will barely miss your lands, and you will be able to cast something each turn without having a tapped land in play. Mana Confluence is fine at 1-2 copies but I find myself not needing it and taking the extra damage for no reason.
[admittedly limited] playtesting seems to say otherwise, but I'll certainly agree that this deck can get away with dropping some taplands. Think of this as a Warriors take on Abzan Aggro, which in my experience tends to run anywhere from 10-14 taplands. Still lower than 16, and I think we can realistically afford to drop some of the trilands for Plains and Urborg/Swamp. I disagree with dropping any Mana Confluence though, unless you want to drop more than one of the sets of Sorin/Hordechief/Roc you'll be okay with lifegain.
I'm more concerned about the creature picks. Any thoughts on them? I tend to like all of them. The Chiefs make this thing go, Strike Leader is a black Rabblemaster on steroids if the Chiefs are in play, Brawler becomes a monster with even one Chief of the Edge backing him up (hello, 2-drop that kills Courser and walks away unharmed), let alone any other boosts from Spear or Obelisk (hello, 2-drop that stares down Siege Rhino), and Hordechief and The Roc give you mondo lifegain to get away with all those painlands and to put games away.
Also thinking about the stuff filling out the creature shell - the more I consider it I really think Athreos is probably dead weight, since ideally most of the creatures you're swinging with are tokens from Strike Leader, which are getting "returned to hand" (read: killed for free) after they get blocked and killed. I like 2-ofs of both Spear and Obelisk; Obelisk is virtually a win condition in this deck since literally everything becomes at least a 3/4 or 4/3 when it drops [and it can drop as soon as t4 if you don't mind taking a turn to Convoke], and Spear is a nice extra shot in the arm for only 3 mana. One is legendary and the other is 6 mana, so I don't think more than 2-ofs are needed, but they seem just right at 2 apiece. Downfall is self-explanatory, Sorin is probably redundant and might even be interfering with our plans a bit given that he shares the 4-drop slot with Hordechief. Any ideas on how to improve this? Thoughts on sideboard?
The lands run at 8 max tapped so it's very difficult to compare this between Abzan because our probability of hitting our colors is much much higher at 2 colors than 3. That is also another reason not to run Mana Confluence at 4 because you will take unnecessary damage to your own health when by that point, your mana is already fixed. Also the creature curve is much more concentrated around 3+CMC, which means your banking on dropping big threats in the mid-game.
With this archetype I feel you have to make a decision either between running low curve aggro, mid-range, or something in between.
Speaking of mana bases, how is 1 Urborg ever wrong? Is there something I'm missing?
I don't think you need it with two colors unless you're running BB spells in the mainboard and need to fix your mana right away. With other versions that don't run those cards, we don't need to fix our mana on black and would do us a disfavor if we ever face against decks that had it (which happens to be a lot).
I'm loving this deck. Rush of Battle is too sick not to run in a Warrior Tribal deck. So far I've only played two tournaments and I've placed both times. PPTQ top 8 lost to flooding out some how with fetches. Monday night Standard tied for 1st. It is great against all match ups. The thing I don't understand is why no one is running any fetches. Being able to thin the deck is so great. Shadowspear is solid for bringing back Champions. This deck also has the opportunity to attack for 20+ lifelink on turn four with 2 1 drops & 2 2 drops, but you don't even need that to win. Some of you are going to question why I'm running Mardu Hordechief. This guy is nuts. The token is great with Rush of Battle, its a good chump blocker to help protect Sorin if need be. The token can also attack a turn sooner than Strike Leader's token, and some times that matters with Rush of Battle. Battle Brawler can take over the game so easily getting the first strike is great right now. So many Siege Rhinos needing to chump block with the Brawler still living. Skull Hunter's discard comes in handy alot too. I've had lots of fun playing this. I'll be playing this until Khans rotates. It can only get better lol.
Thanks for posting this decklist! It's very interesting.
I played an Orzhov warriors deck on Monday night at a local game store. I ended up playing 10 or more games against Jeskai tokens, and I felt that this deck really had no chance. Mostly because I was playing a version that lacked removal. Bile Blights and Hero's Downfalls are so important.
Citadel Siege seems really strong. I played it in a Mardu deck the week before, and it definitely won games.
I ended up playing 10 or more games against Jeskai tokens, and I felt that this deck really had no chance. Mostly because I was playing a version that lacked removal. Bile Blights and Hero's Downfalls are so important.
My only removal is Downfall and I've played Jeskai tokens alot. I only had two decks to playtest with beofre taking this to tournaments, Abzan (my friend's deck) & Jeskai tokens (my old deck). Both decks never stood a chance. I lost one game to Abzan due to flooding again. And I hardly saw Downfall against tokens. They needed to chump block and never had the chance to anything productive. Everyone's lists is going to be different but I strongly encourage everyone to play Rush of Battle. Now everyone who was playing a similar deck did not run Rush, one person even said its not good and another said its too slow. The funny thing is I've placed and they didn't. I'm not saying anyone else's list is bad or anything but if you're playing this deck you need to copy my exact 75.
It's hard to take deckbuilding advice from someone who advocates deck-thinning, something that has been proven inconsequential. It makes some sense if you run delve cards, which this deck does not, but any other perceived advantage from it is in your head.
It's hard to take deckbuilding advice from someone who advocates deck-thinning, something that has been proven inconsequential. It makes some sense if you run delve cards, which this deck does not, but any other perceived advantage from it is in your head.
Any other perceived advantage from it is in my head?
You must not know somethings called math and percentages.
Nice article from 2002, if you want to post an article about it post one that's recent not from 12 years ago.
I'm not going to argue this but it is a FACT that running fetches lowers the chances of drawing a land. Ok turn 1 you play your fecthland. You get a land out of your deck. So on turn two you have 42 cards in your deck instead 43. There are other factors in there with having lands in hand too. But 42 vs 43 on turn two just proved my point. You have a slightly better chance to draw a non land than a land card, then with using other fetches increases this even more.
There's probably enough life gain to balance out all the fetching in that deck anyway, GMax. I agree that it is thinning your deck but if the stats show, from 13 years ago yes, it doesn't give you any more nonlands than not thinning until turn 25 then it's not really needed. It's sort of like getting 2 lottery tickets; you technically increase your odds but so minisculely that it's pretty much negligible.
And butthole was a little hostile there but I enjoyed the link, thanks.
GMax how are you liking the Skullhunters, I found them lackluster in an early Warriors build of mine but love the card. Like rush of battle here, too. There's no plan to get around anything but it's so fast you just go wide and hope they don't have sweepers? Then if so you brought in Return to the Ranks.
I'm not going to argue this but it is a FACT that running fetches lowers the chances of drawing a land. Ok turn 1 you play your fecthland. You get a land out of your deck. So on turn two you have 42 cards in your deck instead 43. There are other factors in there with having lands in hand too. But 42 vs 43 on turn two just proved my point. You have a slightly better chance to draw a non land than a land card, then with using other fetches increases this even more.
Of course. This should be obvious to anyone.
However, you're missing the most important concern: is taking 1 card from your deck worth losing 1 life?
Nice article from 2002, if you want to post an article about it post one that's recent not from 12 years ago.
I hate calling ad hominem (cuz it's overused as hell), but this is a textbook case. You're ignoring the contents of the article to focus on the fact that it's old, therefore invalid. Math doesn't change over time. The article is sound.
There's probably enough life gain to balance out all the fetching in that deck anyway, GMax. I agree that it is thinning your deck but if the stats show, from 13 years ago yes, it doesn't give you any more nonlands than not thinning until turn 25 then it's not really needed. It's sort of like getting 2 lottery tickets; you technically increase your odds but so minisculely that it's pretty much negligible.
And butthole was a little hostile there but I enjoyed the link, thanks.
GMax how are you liking the Skullhunters, I found them lackluster in an early Warriors build of mine but love the card. Like rush of battle here, too. There's no plan to get around anything but it's so fast you just go wide and hope they don't have sweepers? Then if so you brought in Return to the Ranks.
Yeah I noticed the hostility that why I said I wasn't going to argue. In previous posts I've mentioned that I still flooded out in a few games and I understand running the fetches only lowers the percent by so much but it still helps. Skullhunter has been pretty good for me. Out of all the times I've played him my opponents have only discard one land ever. I know this is going to change the more I play this but so far so good lol. Return to the Ranks is my sideboard mvp. The funny thing is I picked up my Returns for a modern deck I was working on but scrapped that idea and love them in here.
I'm not going to argue this but it is a FACT that running fetches lowers the chances of drawing a land. Ok turn 1 you play your fecthland. You get a land out of your deck. So on turn two you have 42 cards in your deck instead 43. There are other factors in there with having lands in hand too. But 42 vs 43 on turn two just proved my point. You have a slightly better chance to draw a non land than a land card, then with using other fetches increases this even more.
Of course. This should be obvious to anyone.
However, you're missing the most important concern: is taking 1 card from your deck worth losing 1 life?
Nice article from 2002, if you want to post an article about it post one that's recent not from 12 years ago.
I hate calling ad hominem (cuz it's overused as hell), but this is a textbook case. You're ignoring the contents of the article to focus on the fact that it's old, therefore invalid. Math doesn't change over time. The article is sound.
Yes it is worth the one life there is too much life gain with Rush, Sorin and Woe-Reapers. There have been games where I've been at 40-60 life before the end of the game.
I did enjoy reading the article too its just there was some parts that was completely irrelevant. Magic has changed so much since then and way the game was played back then is way different than how its played now. It was very informative cause the guy who made the article had been playing for awhile back then and it shows., and he is very smart too. I just figured there would have been a similar article but a more recent one. I was a little flustered when I first replied but I just shook it off TS<3
Nice article from 2002, if you want to post an article about it post one that's recent not from 12 years ago.
I hate calling ad hominem (cuz it's overused as hell), but this is a textbook case. You're ignoring the contents of the article to focus on the fact that it's old, therefore invalid. Math doesn't change over time. The article is sound.
Yes it is worth the one life there is too much life gain with Rush, Sorin and Woe-Reapers. There have been games where I've been at 40-60 life before the end of the game.
I did enjoy reading the article too its just there was some parts that was completely irrelevant. Magic has changed so much since then and way the game was played back then is way different than how its played now. It was very informative cause the guy who made the article had been playing for awhile back then and it shows., and he is very smart too. I just figured there would have been a similar article but a more recent one. I was a little flustered when I first replied but I just shook it off TS<3
Two thoughts on the 40+ life bit...
(1) How regularly are you hitting 40+ life? That strikes me as an egregious outlier rather than anything close to a norm.
(2) Considering that you've essentially already won any game at which you cross that life threshold, why would deck thinning matter at all? If you're counting on life buffers that obscene to fund your deck thinning, you're counting on achieving a game state where you've already won to see any effect from that thinning. It strikes me that including fetches to deck thin actually hurts your chances to win, because in games where you can afford to spend that life you've already gained inevitability (so your win rate in these situations isn't actually going up), and in games which are in doubt you're still not seeing much benefit (paying several potentially-decisive points of life for deck thinning that doesn't impact the game for twenty turns).
Also, your second paragraph doesn't actually assert anything specific to contradict the article. How has Magic "changed so much since then" to make the mathematics behind the article unsound? Literally nothing has changed about deck size or fetchland activation cost, so the cost-benefit analysis ought to be precisely the same.
After some testing and a gauntlet I made some changes, this is my most current list. Some things I have found out are, 1) Chief of the Scale is not that good, 2) Brutal Hordechief isn't a 4 of, 3) Sign in Blood is great for this deck(often a kill spell after a sweeper effect), 4) Tormod's Crypt is a house in this format in general, 5) Mardu Skullhunter is underrated.
Also one thing for BW warrior players to watch out for is Circle of Flame. Some dude at my FNM randomly started using that card on me which prompted me to make Chief of the Scale a 4 of again. He has since switched decks so I'm back to this list but it's such a blowout for an opponent to have that and not be running Chief of the Scale.
Yeah I'm not finding Chief of the Scale to be that great. I keep finding it in my hand and just wishing I had something else, and it would generally be my last priority to play out of the cards in my hand. Guess I'm gonna swap them to SB and move in some more combat tricks/removal/disruption. Or maybe I'll replace him with the skullhunters?
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Started playing since Invasion, stopped at Scourge. Returned briefly during BoK's introduction of ninjas. Finally back into magic during Shadowmoor/Eventide.
Currently Running Bant Control and a homebrew Blightning Echoes for Type 2.
Yeah I'm not finding Chief of the Scale to be that great. I keep finding it in my hand and just wishing I had something else, and it would generally be my last priority to play out of the cards in my hand. Guess I'm gonna swap them to SB and move in some more combat tricks/removal/disruption. Or maybe I'll replace him with the skullhunters?
It may be that I am only running 8 two drops, but I am usually plenty happy to see Chief of the Scale. He keeps Brutal Hordechief out of that deadly 3 toughness range, he makes all my guys less susceptible to wipes/chump blocks. Circle of Flames Drown in Sorrow Scouring Sands
Tokens
All hate Chief of the Scale.
As for Battle Brawler, I know he can get big for cheap, but I just dont like how he depends on a white permanent. To me I'd rather see Chief of the Scale, or any of my 1 drops than a Battle Brawler with nothing white on the board.
FNM last week. went 2-2. played against 3 Abzan control decks and 1 b/w control. was too fast for the bw control, but went 1-2 agaisnt abzan.... this is a deck list i feel will give abzan control more of a nightmare. also thinking of taking out the hordechief for 2 more athreos. he didnt see much game play last friday.
It may be that I am only running 8 two drops, but I am usually plenty happy to see Chief of the Scale. He keeps Brutal Hordechief out of that deadly 3 toughness range, he makes all my guys less susceptible to wipes/chump blocks. Circle of Flames Drown in Sorrow Scouring Sands
Tokens
All hate Chief of the Scale.
id rather have athreos, god of passage in play over chief of the scale. harder to kill. and every time they kill one of your guys, you still hurt them with the 3 life or getting your guy back.
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Mana Confluence
4 Temple of Silence
4 Scoured Barrens
4 Nomad Outpost
4 Sandsteppe Citadel
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Battle Brawler
4 Mardu Strike Leader
2 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Brutal Hordechief
4 Wingmate Roc
2 Obelisk of Urd
2 Spear of Heliod
Other Spells (6)
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Card Selection Rationale:
Chiefs - Pretty self-explanatory. You don't run a B/W Warriors deck without efficient 2-drop BW warriors that boost the P/T of all other warriors.
Brawler - This guy is filler/backup play on any given turn. T2 he's a decent enough body that can buy a little time to find Chiefs/Strike Leader. T3 he becomes a 3/3 or 4/2 first striker that again buys time to find the bigger threats. T4 and beyond he's just a solid backup. I really like him because one Chief of the Edge turns him into a trading machine, able to go toe-to-toe with Courser of Kruphix and come out on top. 2 Chiefs makes him capable of downing a Siege Rhino and walking away unscathed. Etc. He's not integral to the game plan, so if we need to cut something from this list then he's on the table, but I think he rounds out the 2-drop beater spot pretty well.
Strike Leader - Also self-explanatory, 3/2 Warrior for 3 that pumps out more Warriors, all getting boosted by Chiefs, Heliod and Obelisk for mondo damage.
Athreos - He's a last-second inclusion and prime cut material for improving this deck. His role is pretty obvious, and it's not hard to make him a creature, but it's not clear whether his ability actually provides that much. Theoretically most of your deaths here should be the creature tokens instead of the actual creatures, especially once Athreos comes out and your opponent plays around it. I really like the choice that's supposed to be forced on the opponent, but it's an open question as to whether your opponent will actually have to make that choice much.
Downfall - Self-explanatory.
Heliod - Constant +1/+1 and circumstantial spot removal for 3 mana? Sign me up.
Hordechief - This guy is filthy. Our stat boosters quickly make him into a huge body for 4 cmc, and his lifeswing potential with tokens is through the roof. The fact that multiple versions of him can be on the field at once puts him over the top.
Sorin - Even more lifegain.
The Roc - Not a Warrior, but it brings solid evasion and obscene lifegain potential with all the tokens being pumped out. Good enough to be included on policy if it fits into our mana base, and it does.
Obelisk - Self-explanatory. Strike Leader tokens make great Convoke bait.
Thoughts on how to change this up? There's room to pull several cards out of here for other stuff, and I haven't given any real thought to a sideboard yet.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
[admittedly limited] playtesting seems to say otherwise, but I'll certainly agree that this deck can get away with dropping some taplands. Think of this as a Warriors take on Abzan Aggro, which in my experience tends to run anywhere from 10-14 taplands. Still lower than 16, and I think we can realistically afford to drop some of the trilands for Plains and Urborg/Swamp. I disagree with dropping any Mana Confluence though, unless you want to drop more than one of the sets of Sorin/Hordechief/Roc you'll be okay with lifegain.
I'm more concerned about the creature picks. Any thoughts on them? I tend to like all of them. The Chiefs make this thing go, Strike Leader is a black Rabblemaster on steroids if the Chiefs are in play, Brawler becomes a monster with even one Chief of the Edge backing him up (hello, 2-drop that kills Courser and walks away unharmed), let alone any other boosts from Spear or Obelisk (hello, 2-drop that stares down Siege Rhino), and Hordechief and The Roc give you mondo lifegain to get away with all those painlands and to put games away.
Also thinking about the stuff filling out the creature shell - the more I consider it I really think Athreos is probably dead weight, since ideally most of the creatures you're swinging with are tokens from Strike Leader, which are getting "returned to hand" (read: killed for free) after they get blocked and killed. I like 2-ofs of both Spear and Obelisk; Obelisk is virtually a win condition in this deck since literally everything becomes at least a 3/4 or 4/3 when it drops [and it can drop as soon as t4 if you don't mind taking a turn to Convoke], and Spear is a nice extra shot in the arm for only 3 mana. One is legendary and the other is 6 mana, so I don't think more than 2-ofs are needed, but they seem just right at 2 apiece. Downfall is self-explanatory, Sorin is probably redundant and might even be interfering with our plans a bit given that he shares the 4-drop slot with Hordechief. Any ideas on how to improve this? Thoughts on sideboard?
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
1st in 休日スタンダード20時の部 - 2015-01-31Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
3 Wingmate Roc
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Battle Brawler
3 Brutal Hordechief
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Athreos, God of Passage
Artifact (1)
1 Spear of Heliod
4 Hero's Downfall
Enchantment (2)
2 Citadel Siege
Planeswalker (3)
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Land (24)
8 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
1 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Banishing Light
4 Bile Blight
3 Utter End
2 Valorous Stance
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Stain the Mind
The lands run at 8 max tapped so it's very difficult to compare this between Abzan because our probability of hitting our colors is much much higher at 2 colors than 3. That is also another reason not to run Mana Confluence at 4 because you will take unnecessary damage to your own health when by that point, your mana is already fixed. Also the creature curve is much more concentrated around 3+CMC, which means your banking on dropping big threats in the mid-game.
With this archetype I feel you have to make a decision either between running low curve aggro, mid-range, or something in between.
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
Creatures: 30
4 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Battle Brawler
3 Mardu Skullhunter
4 Mardu Hordechief
3 Brutal Hordechief
Sorcery: 4
4 Rush of Battle
Instant: 3
3 Hero's Downfall
Planeswalker: 2
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands: 21
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp
5 Plains
Sideboard:
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Mardu Strike Leader
3 Return to the Ranks
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Abzan Advantage
I'm loving this deck. Rush of Battle is too sick not to run in a Warrior Tribal deck. So far I've only played two tournaments and I've placed both times. PPTQ top 8 lost to flooding out some how with fetches. Monday night Standard tied for 1st. It is great against all match ups. The thing I don't understand is why no one is running any fetches. Being able to thin the deck is so great. Shadowspear is solid for bringing back Champions. This deck also has the opportunity to attack for 20+ lifelink on turn four with 2 1 drops & 2 2 drops, but you don't even need that to win. Some of you are going to question why I'm running Mardu Hordechief. This guy is nuts. The token is great with Rush of Battle, its a good chump blocker to help protect Sorin if need be. The token can also attack a turn sooner than Strike Leader's token, and some times that matters with Rush of Battle. Battle Brawler can take over the game so easily getting the first strike is great right now. So many Siege Rhinos needing to chump block with the Brawler still living. Skull Hunter's discard comes in handy alot too. I've had lots of fun playing this. I'll be playing this until Khans rotates. It can only get better lol.
I played an Orzhov warriors deck on Monday night at a local game store. I ended up playing 10 or more games against Jeskai tokens, and I felt that this deck really had no chance. Mostly because I was playing a version that lacked removal. Bile Blights and Hero's Downfalls are so important.
Citadel Siege seems really strong. I played it in a Mardu deck the week before, and it definitely won games.
My only removal is Downfall and I've played Jeskai tokens alot. I only had two decks to playtest with beofre taking this to tournaments, Abzan (my friend's deck) & Jeskai tokens (my old deck). Both decks never stood a chance. I lost one game to Abzan due to flooding again. And I hardly saw Downfall against tokens. They needed to chump block and never had the chance to anything productive. Everyone's lists is going to be different but I strongly encourage everyone to play Rush of Battle. Now everyone who was playing a similar deck did not run Rush, one person even said its not good and another said its too slow. The funny thing is I've placed and they didn't. I'm not saying anyone else's list is bad or anything but if you're playing this deck you need to copy my exact 75.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor, Brutal Hordechief, and Raiders' Spoils all give us much more value over time.
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096
Any other perceived advantage from it is in my head?
You must not know somethings called math and percentages.
Nice article from 2002, if you want to post an article about it post one that's recent not from 12 years ago.
I'm not going to argue this but it is a FACT that running fetches lowers the chances of drawing a land. Ok turn 1 you play your fecthland. You get a land out of your deck. So on turn two you have 42 cards in your deck instead 43. There are other factors in there with having lands in hand too. But 42 vs 43 on turn two just proved my point. You have a slightly better chance to draw a non land than a land card, then with using other fetches increases this even more.
And butthole was a little hostile there but I enjoyed the link, thanks.
GMax how are you liking the Skullhunters, I found them lackluster in an early Warriors build of mine but love the card. Like rush of battle here, too. There's no plan to get around anything but it's so fast you just go wide and hope they don't have sweepers? Then if so you brought in Return to the Ranks.
Cube
Terricube
Modern
8Rack
Burn
Legacy
Oops, All Spells!
Pox
Of course. This should be obvious to anyone.
However, you're missing the most important concern: is taking 1 card from your deck worth losing 1 life?
I hate calling ad hominem (cuz it's overused as hell), but this is a textbook case. You're ignoring the contents of the article to focus on the fact that it's old, therefore invalid. Math doesn't change over time. The article is sound.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
4 Battle Brawler
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Mardu Strike Leader
3 Wingmate Roc
3 Brutal Hordechief
2 Mardu Woe-Reaper
1 Athreos, God of Passage
Instant (4)
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
2 Thoughtseize
Enchantment (3)
2 Banishing Light
1 Citadel Siege
Planeswalker (2)
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Land (24)
7 Plains
7 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
1 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Erase
2 Utter End
2 Bile Blight
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Glare of Heresy
2 Valorous Stance
2 Chief of the Scale
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
Yeah I noticed the hostility that why I said I wasn't going to argue. In previous posts I've mentioned that I still flooded out in a few games and I understand running the fetches only lowers the percent by so much but it still helps. Skullhunter has been pretty good for me. Out of all the times I've played him my opponents have only discard one land ever. I know this is going to change the more I play this but so far so good lol. Return to the Ranks is my sideboard mvp. The funny thing is I picked up my Returns for a modern deck I was working on but scrapped that idea and love them in here.
Yes it is worth the one life there is too much life gain with Rush, Sorin and Woe-Reapers. There have been games where I've been at 40-60 life before the end of the game.
I did enjoy reading the article too its just there was some parts that was completely irrelevant. Magic has changed so much since then and way the game was played back then is way different than how its played now. It was very informative cause the guy who made the article had been playing for awhile back then and it shows., and he is very smart too. I just figured there would have been a similar article but a more recent one. I was a little flustered when I first replied but I just shook it off TS<3
Two thoughts on the 40+ life bit...
(1) How regularly are you hitting 40+ life? That strikes me as an egregious outlier rather than anything close to a norm.
(2) Considering that you've essentially already won any game at which you cross that life threshold, why would deck thinning matter at all? If you're counting on life buffers that obscene to fund your deck thinning, you're counting on achieving a game state where you've already won to see any effect from that thinning. It strikes me that including fetches to deck thin actually hurts your chances to win, because in games where you can afford to spend that life you've already gained inevitability (so your win rate in these situations isn't actually going up), and in games which are in doubt you're still not seeing much benefit (paying several potentially-decisive points of life for deck thinning that doesn't impact the game for twenty turns).
Also, your second paragraph doesn't actually assert anything specific to contradict the article. How has Magic "changed so much since then" to make the mathematics behind the article unsound? Literally nothing has changed about deck size or fetchland activation cost, so the cost-benefit analysis ought to be precisely the same.
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Tormented Hero
4 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Chief of the Edge
1 Chief of the Scale
4 Mardu Skullhunter
4 Mardu Strike Leader
3 Brutal Hordechief
4 Thoughtseize
1 Banishing Light
1 Bile Blight
2 Sign in Blood
2 Hero's Downfall
Land
11 Swamp
6 Plains
1 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Raiders' Spoils
2 Despise
3 Return to the Ranks
1 Sign in Blood
2 Bile Blight
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Banishing Light
3 Tormod's Crypt
After some testing and a gauntlet I made some changes, this is my most current list. Some things I have found out are, 1) Chief of the Scale is not that good, 2) Brutal Hordechief isn't a 4 of, 3) Sign in Blood is great for this deck(often a kill spell after a sweeper effect), 4) Tormod's Crypt is a house in this format in general, 5) Mardu Skullhunter is underrated.
Also one thing for BW warrior players to watch out for is Circle of Flame. Some dude at my FNM randomly started using that card on me which prompted me to make Chief of the Scale a 4 of again. He has since switched decks so I'm back to this list but it's such a blowout for an opponent to have that and not be running Chief of the Scale.
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
Newest and Current Decklist (MB only, havent filled the SB yet, waiting on cards).
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Temple of Silence
7x Swamp
7x Plains
// 2 Enchant Creature \\
2x Athreos, God of Passage
// 8 Instants \\
4x Valorous Stance
3x Gods Willing
1x Harsh Sustenance
4x Mardu Woe-Reaper
4x Bloodsoaked Champion
4x Mardu Shadowspear
4x Chief of the Edge
4x Chief of the Scale
4x Mardu Strike Leader
4x Brutal Hordechief
2x Erase
3x Battlewise Valor
3x Feat of Resistance
1x Utter End
2x Murderous Cut
1x Dead Drop
3x Despise
Need to upgrade to Thoughtseize from Despise, Abzan Advantage from Erase, probably get some Bile Blights, Hero's Downfalls, not sure what else.
I primarily use the "Protection from X" from Gods Willing as a form of Unblockable, and the Valorous Stance as a form of removal against fatties.
Currently Running Bant Control and a homebrew Blightning Echoes for Type 2.
It may be that I am only running 8 two drops, but I am usually plenty happy to see Chief of the Scale. He keeps Brutal Hordechief out of that deadly 3 toughness range, he makes all my guys less susceptible to wipes/chump blocks.
Circle of Flames
Drown in Sorrow
Scouring Sands
Tokens
All hate Chief of the Scale.
However, I can see the benefit of some Mardu Skullhunters too.
As for Battle Brawler, I know he can get big for cheap, but I just dont like how he depends on a white permanent. To me I'd rather see Chief of the Scale, or any of my 1 drops than a Battle Brawler with nothing white on the board.
Creatures
Aven Skirmisher 4
bloodsoaked champion 4
chief of the edge 4
brutal hordechief 2
mardu strike leader 4
Athreos, god of passage 2
battle brawler 4
Enchantments
raiders' spoils 2
Sorceries
rush of battle 4
Instants
Harsh Sustenance 4
utter end 4
Planeswalkers
sorin, solemn visitor 2
Land
temple of silence 4
caves of koilos 4
scoured barrens 4
plains 4
swamp 4
B/W
id rather have athreos, god of passage in play over chief of the scale. harder to kill. and every time they kill one of your guys, you still hurt them with the 3 life or getting your guy back.
B/W