At least in my experience which is all pre-FRF. The Dash mechanic could change this. Haste is the best weapon against sorcery speed sweepers so perhaps Dash will allow the deck to not fold without the safety net of Mardu Ascendancy.
I will add one more option; return to the ranks. Not that good but it may be enough.
At least in my experience which is all pre-FRF. The Dash mechanic could change this. Haste is the best weapon against sorcery speed sweepers so perhaps Dash will allow the deck to not fold without the safety net of Mardu Ascendancy.
Yeah this echoes my feelings too. Mardu Ascendancy in my testing also provides a means to get back into a game after an unavoidable wipe by allowing you to double up. It thus synergises very nicely with a Mardu Strike Leader if you get wiped (i.e., 3 for 1, sorta).
I plan to MB Mardu Ascendancy and really go with the token aspect alongside low cost warriors. I think Mardu Control is going to be a big problem still though, even with Thoughtseize, as they have access to pretty much every board wipe going.
At least in my experience which is all pre-FRF. The Dash mechanic could change this. Haste is the best weapon against sorcery speed sweepers so perhaps Dash will allow the deck to not fold without the safety net of Mardu Ascendancy.
What deck are you playing against that has drown, anger, end hostilities, perilous vault and crux of fate? your opponent is most likely only going to have 1 of those sweepers. There's also the fact that your opponent has to actually have the sweeper on turn 3 in order to blow you out. We're an aggro deck, having lands like temple's come into play tapped sounds like aids when all you want to turn is curve from turn 1 to turn 4 and kill them as fast as possible. Also taking damage from playing your lands and thoughtseize is just going to make you lose to something like boss sligh. If the metagame allows you to play pains lands, fetch lands and mana confluence without caring about decks that are faster then you by all means hedge more against the drown / anger's.
What deck are you playing against that has drown, anger, end hostilities, perilous vault and crux of fate? your opponent is most likely only going to have 1 of those sweepers. There's also the fact that your opponent has to actually have the sweeper on turn 3 in order to blow you out. We're an aggro deck, having lands like temple's come into play tapped sounds like aids when all you want to turn is curve from turn 1 to turn 4 and kill them as fast as possible. Also taking damage from playing your lands and thoughtseize is just going to make you lose to something like boss sligh. If the metagame allows you to play pains lands, fetch lands and mana confluence without caring about decks that are faster then you by all means hedge more against the drown / anger's.
You appear to have misread what I wrote. It isn't that one deck has all those sweepers, but all those sweepers do see significant play across the meta. Right now, most of the mid range decks have the ability to transform into control decks after sideboarding. Yes, they have to have the sweeper for it to get you, but they also often have access to a lot of one-for-one removal.
I never advocated for adding scry lands to this deck. Not sure why that was mentioned.
Yes, with the painlands and confluence, the three color Mardu aggro deck will lose to anything faster than it and, in fact, to many decks that are the same speed since it hastens its own demise so effectively. No deck has it all. What I do know is that with token strategies being popular, many of the cards that are good against them work very well against traditional creature based aggro like Mono-black aggro, B/W warriors, and Mono-red. This is why the mini-sweepers are such popular sideboard options; they are solid answers to a big chunk of decks. In my meta, Abzan Aggro will have two or more Drown in Sorrow in the sideboard and likely the full compliment of Bile Blight in the 75. Abzan Midrange typically packs 6 or more sweeper/mini-sweeper effects in the 75, then four Bile Blight and some other removal.
I am not saying I have the answer but I am relatively confident that I know the problem these aggro decks face. You can and will win the majority of your game 1s, but best of three is another story unless you have a good plan for the hate cards.
While not a contribution to boardwipe discussion, how does Ajani Steadfast fare for Orzhov Warriors?
His first ability at worst gives a little lifelink and first strike to one guy in a swing, or it can give say, Mardu Strike Leader evasion for his dash. Lifelink can help offset your painlands too?
His second ability pumps all your warriors slowly. While perhaps not enough to avoid an Anger or Sorrow, it can still help close the window of time that your opponent has to respond (or even get you to a safer toughness with Chief of the Scale?
His third ability is uhhh... alright I guess? Buys you time to restock if you somehow trigger this? Probably not useful.
He's 4cmc too, so you can get him in pretty easy.
Private Mod Note
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Started playing since Invasion, stopped at Scourge. Returned briefly during BoK's introduction of ninjas. Finally back into magic during Shadowmoor/Eventide.
Currently Running Bant Control and a homebrew Blightning Echoes for Type 2.
Here is the new list I have been play testing and it seems to be pretty freaking mean at the moment. Can easily shut some decks down by T4 and T5. Looking for thoughts and input on it.
The land I think may need some tweaking as I think its a bit heavy in white.
Athreos has been an all-star, and I havent been sad to see him ever, but I also have never seen 2 at once, so thinking of cutting him down to 1 of
Valorous Stance is another all-star, letting me get through Rhinos, Wingmates, Coursers, and anything else my warriors cant do on their own. Also provides protection.
Boon of Erebus I have not been overly impressed with as of yet, but I definitely see the benefit in killing rhinos and living.
Brutal Hordechief is Hellrider, nuff said, but really I do miss Haste, but the drain and his rarely used mana ability makes up for it.
Mardu Shadowspear I like because even when it gets blocked it gets 1 through, and it has become a favorite for me.
Anyone have any criticism or any thoughts/comments?
I'm trying to play this as close to a RDW shell as I can (specifically the RDW from RTR), curving at 4 mana, and just trying to overload and push through.
What deck are you playing against that has drown, anger, end hostilities, perilous vault and crux of fate? your opponent is most likely only going to have 1 of those sweepers. There's also the fact that your opponent has to actually have the sweeper on turn 3 in order to blow you out. We're an aggro deck, having lands like temple's come into play tapped sounds like aids when all you want to turn is curve from turn 1 to turn 4 and kill them as fast as possible. Also taking damage from playing your lands and thoughtseize is just going to make you lose to something like boss sligh. If the metagame allows you to play pains lands, fetch lands and mana confluence without caring about decks that are faster then you by all means hedge more against the drown / anger's.
You appear to have misread what I wrote. It isn't that one deck has all those sweepers, but all those sweepers do see significant play across the meta. Right now, most of the mid range decks have the ability to transform into control decks after sideboarding. Yes, they have to have the sweeper for it to get you, but they also often have access to a lot of one-for-one removal.
I never advocated for adding scry lands to this deck. Not sure why that was mentioned.
Yes, with the painlands and confluence, the three color Mardu aggro deck will lose to anything faster than it and, in fact, to many decks that are the same speed since it hastens its own demise so effectively. No deck has it all. What I do know is that with token strategies being popular, many of the cards that are good against them work very well against traditional creature based aggro like Mono-black aggro, B/W warriors, and Mono-red. This is why the mini-sweepers are such popular sideboard options; they are solid answers to a big chunk of decks. In my meta, Abzan Aggro will have two or more Drown in Sorrow in the sideboard and likely the full compliment of Bile Blight in the 75. Abzan Midrange typically packs 6 or more sweeper/mini-sweeper effects in the 75, then four Bile Blight and some other removal.
I am not saying I have the answer but I am relatively confident that I know the problem these aggro decks face. You can and will win the majority of your game 1s, but best of three is another story unless you have a good plan for the hate cards.
I didn't misread anything , my point is no deck is running all of those sweepers. At most you're going to see 2 out of any deck. I still don't think that trying to hedge against 2 sweepers (out of 5) is a reason to kill yourself against other aggro decks.
While not a contribution to boardwipe discussion, how does Ajani Steadfast fare for Orzhov Warriors?
His first ability at worst gives a little lifelink and first strike to one guy in a swing, or it can give say, Mardu Strike Leader evasion for his dash. Lifelink can help offset your painlands too?
His second ability pumps all your warriors slowly. While perhaps not enough to avoid an Anger or Sorrow, it can still help close the window of time that your opponent has to respond (or even get you to a safer toughness with Chief of the Scale?
His third ability is uhhh... alright I guess? Buys you time to restock if you somehow trigger this? Probably not useful.
He's 4cmc too, so you can get him in pretty easy.
Ajani is interesting, I think we might be ok with pumps from the chief's / obelisk's. if we are looking for lifelink to help against aggro decks, I would use sorin for this type of deck instead of ajani.
Here is the new list I have been play testing and it seems to be pretty freaking mean at the moment. Can easily shut some decks down by T4 and T5. Looking for thoughts and input on it.
The land I think may need some tweaking as I think its a bit heavy in white.
Athreos has been an all-star, and I havent been sad to see him ever, but I also have never seen 2 at once, so thinking of cutting him down to 1 of
Valorous Stance is another all-star, letting me get through Rhinos, Wingmates, Coursers, and anything else my warriors cant do on their own. Also provides protection.
Boon of Erebus I have not been overly impressed with as of yet, but I definitely see the benefit in killing rhinos and living.
Brutal Hordechief is Hellrider, nuff said, but really I do miss Haste, but the drain and his rarely used mana ability makes up for it.
Mardu Shadowspear I like because even when it gets blocked it gets 1 through, and it has become a favorite for me.
Anyone have any criticism or any thoughts/comments?
I'm trying to play this as close to a RDW shell as I can (specifically the RDW from RTR), curving at 4 mana, and just trying to overload and push through.
You might be able to cut a land or 2. It really depends on how often you're activating the Brutal Hordechief, if it's only been once in 10 matches I would say it might be safe to shave some lands. You could add Battle Brawler maybe Hero's Downfall / Thoughtseize. To help out with the to many white sources, I would add 1 Urborg
i would personally switch to all-black one-drops (bloodsoaked champion, mardu shadowspear and tomrented hero) and switch out some high end stuff for mogis' marauder. card is bonkers.
I agree, might as well just go mono black and not have to worry about the manabase at that point. You still get brutal hordechief and strike leader.
I've been considering taking this in the Mardu direction. Has anyone considered the possible combo of Alesha, Who Smiles at Death and Daghatar the Adamant? Or do you feel it would be too slow in this format?
Alesha is cool, Daghatar is slower than Butcher. This is the Mardu Warrior build I've come up with and need to try. Mind you it's the B/W shell but with Alesha + Butcher + Ascendency and SB isn't tested... but you get the idea. It's far from straight Mardu Midrange. I think there is more potential with Butcher than Hordechief.
Mardu Ascedancy is a trap. The mana base we have in standard right now simply kills the possibility of a aggro 3 color deck ever working. And Mardu Ascendancy is not even that good anyway. It only blocks Anger and Drown in sorrow and since it have to be cast prior to those cards, your opponent doesn't loose tempo and cards trying to wipe you. They can just do the second best thing they could do and hold on until Crux/End Hostility range. It's not a worthless card, it's just not worthy of warping your mana base. Athreos is no MB material but he is overall a much better plan as he helps you against spot removal as well as trading.
Combat tricks just have no business MB here in my opinion. The times where you counter a downfall or a L strike and get a massive tempo swing are very satisfying but not really decisive. I mean spot removal is the worst thing your opponent could be doing against you, it's literally the very thing you shouldn't be worry about. For every answer you have 3 threats, it's really no big deal. The precious 7-8 non-creatures slots we have should be reserved to the things that helps us win our hardest fight, not to make a easy fight even easier. The fact that none of then answers Drown in Sorrow (the very card we should be worrying about) is just sad. They are still good to protect dashers though, so it's SB material imo.
For me be Brutal Hordechief are x4 (at least in the 22~23 land builds). This is the Carytid-Courser-Rhino/Tasigur format, more then half of your opponents will be stalling the board as early as turn 4~5. And this deck is not fast enough to end the game before that. Half of the time the Hordechief will instantly give you 4~5 damage reach which could be enough to just finish no matter how messy the attack is. And if it's not enough, just wait the next land drop and for the instant win. And his not even bad vs. control as his a 4 drop that hits for 4 without dying to Elspeth, he helps you against her tokens and even have immediate impact. About not "ever" using his activated ability... From 9 matches I played today I activated it in 4 of then.
Overall we need tons of white cards because Battle Brawler IS that important because of Courser. It's just because of him I'm playing 2x Chief of the Scale and 3x Banishing Light. Although Bile Blight is too good right now and we need the black sources for that.
Ajani > Sorin in the MB but overall neither are needed in my opinion. Sorin is sweet SB tech vs. control decks.
My deck list:
I like that people are starting to consider athreos, God of passage in this. I've found him to be pretty awesome, and my I like a lot of what's been said about staying in 2 colors.
I personally think valorous stance should be a playset in every list. The ability to have an instant speed way to protect against most removal, or get rid of our biggest road blocks. I probably use it as removal about 75% of the time rather than protection.
I agree that Brutal Hordechief should be a playset as well. Too many times have I won off back to back hordechiefs, even without the haste of Hellrider, he's a a monster.
This is a Private Message I sent to someone helping me out, but I wanted to post it in here for further input/ideas.
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This is my current deck, but I do like your thoughts about combat tricks and it being better to play more threats instead. I am pretty sold on a 4 of as Valorous Stance, but I could easily go to 1 of on Athreos, God of Passage, although I like what he does, its almost more of a win-more card.
For the sideboard, I am still not sure, and usually finish the main deck before starting on that (that may be bad deck building). However, I have had an eye on Abzan Advantage, and personally like the idea of that card against the Ascendancy decks, and possibly Whip. Worst case its a free bolster, best case it bolsters and gets a trouble card gone, also works on God's. Of course, fully SB.
Based on your suggestions, and those of everyone else, I can see using Battle Brawler, even with only 12-14 white cards. I am however a big fan of both Chief of the Edge and Chief of the Scale, and those are some of my only White cards.
Another thought to get Battle Brawler's bonus more consistently would be to use Aven Skirmisher, a vanilla 1/1 flyer, but flying is something this deck doesn't have, and it may be able to get in more damage over the course of the game than Bloodsoaked Champion, who despite the recursion, I am not that impressed with.
Here are some thoughts on some tweaks that I could do to the deck, and still need a SB of course.
Again, I know I wrote you a book, but I do greatly appreciate all the assistance, and personally I believe that B/W warriors can make it to Tier 1.5 if not Tier 1 in this standard. From all the talk I've read, I feel like you have the most correct grasp on where to take it, more speed, more kill, more aggro.
Any and all input would be great!
And any deck ideas you have as tweaks, or any side board thoughts.
The issue with Disowned Ancestor is that he is playing a blocker in an aggro deck. Outlast, since its only a sorcery speed it is pretty bad, and by the time you can start attacking with a 1/5, (t3) they have a downfall to stop it, or you could be already swinging to drop them to around 10 life at T3.
As for the Aven Skirmisher, hes a simple 1/1, but hes got the reach this deck needs, AND once he gets pumped some, can do some damage.
The deck already has reach with Chief and our Artifacts. The only reason I see running Aven is to activate our Brawler, though I would investigate below.
I feel we can classify B/W Warriors into 3 categories: 1-drop Weenies, Seeker of the Way Aggro, and the standard beatdown shell. I feel whatever direction you choose to go, certain card selections become better or worse. For instance I know in your deck you run 4 different types of 1-drops, my recommendation is to have your 4 copies of Edge and Scale support them, and a good amount of spells to provide protection and +1/+1. My testing with Obelisk has made it a risky card to run in a normal shell, but with a lot of 1-drops, convoking an Obelisk is much more realistic.
In the version below, I opt to keep the curve a little higher, which is albeit risky, but lets me have a flexible start and leave some mana open. Also my creature focus is stacked around the 2-drops with my Chiefs, Brawler, and a splashed Seeker of the Way. IMO the latter is really a key card in this deck but I find it useful as a 1-off that gets sided in G2/G3.
This is an updated version of the last post I made. Some changes I made:
- Replaced Ulcerate with copies of Bile Blight and Hero's Downfall, kept 1 copy in the main
- Replaced 1 copy of Obelisk of Urd with an extra land
- Added an extra copy of Thoughtseize and Valorous Stance to the side
- RECENT: Replaced 2 copies of Downfall in the main with 2 copies of Banishing Light for more white permanents
With heavier CMC costs, protection becomes key and effective removal is needed to avoid big threats that would stall us. Unlike the 1-drop version, we have a slower start to build our board presence, thus making Obelisk a little more inefficient with the lack of convoke targets. I think Downfall and Bile Blight are also a must, too many times the game is over because we don't have the right answer.
Good synopsis. I agree with most of it. Did some testing on mine last night and was consistantly beating Azban Midrange 2-1, but if they got a decent draw, or if I missed anything it was game over for me. Missing a land, or 1 drop is very painful.
As for when I say Reach, I mean evasion. Basically a single elspeth can stop us. We somehow need trample, intimidate, flying, unblockable, something. Currently all we have is Brutal HordeChiefs trigger and Mardu Shadowspears trigger.
A big problem with the deck, I spent most of the day thinking and brewing lists that would resolve this problem. In the last format we would use Herald of Torment or Mogis's Marauder to provide this seeing how the shell ran mostly black.
An interesting decklist I saw ran more like a weenie deck and implied Return to the Ranks, Ajani's Presence, Dictate of Heliod, as well as a full set of Raiders' Spoils. To be honest, I'm not completely sold on the Raiders' Spoils as I would replace it with Banishing Light, while Defiant Strike on the other hand sounds sketchy to me, though a cantrip is quite appealing (please discuss)...
I believe this is from an equivalent of a FNM (3 he played) with 20-30 players attending. Mind you there is no sideboard.
I must also note there is an interesting correlation between our problem and another Japanese decklist that is Mono Black Aggro but uses humans with Obelisk of Urd, Mogis's Marauder, and Boon of Erebos:
Moving forward with B/W Warriors, we can try to test the ideas in the first decklist against the fact we might be stretching ourselves with Brutal Hordechief and Mardu Strike Leader. Theoretically, Ajani's Presence will help with tokens, Banishing Light will help with Planeswalkers and big threats, and Return to the Ranks will let us do it all over again with our guys.
Here is the decklist I will try, I have no idea where I will take the sideboard as of yet.
I originally started playing Athreos, God of Passage in a Constellation deck. After that didn't pan out I was about to get out of Standard, then Khans dropped and I tried to make Warriors; it didn't go well once again, and I was on my way out when I saw how Warrior-focused Fate Reforged was and I knew the time was coming. Here's the current product after playing with some success tonight in a rather competitive meta: it's just a touch of red for Alesha, Who Smiles at Death I haven't played enough to know what I really need in my sideboard but I like it so far.
- Crux of Fate and End Hostilities sounds kind of skidish in an aggressive deck
- Four Sorin, Solemn Visitor is too much, 2 max in this build
- Consider Banishing Light over Hero's Downfall to provide another W permanent for Battle Brawler
- Consider Mardu Woe-Reaper over Bloodsoaked Champion for the same reason as above
- Invest into 1-2 CMC instants, to provide your guys with that extra bit
After playing around with Kanetsuna Hirokazu's deck I can say he is on to something. I've played a few rounds against different types of aggro and this has been able to keep up with Red and Boros Aggro. Raiders' Spoils actually synergies with the deck a lot I thought it wouldn't make an impact; the draw is important.
I'm considering Temple of Silence over Scoured Barrens however the lifepoints are greatly needed in the aggro match up. Sideboard is my own.
EDIT: now a pure Hirokazu build with tight SB selection
I will add one more option; return to the ranks. Not that good but it may be enough.
Yeah this echoes my feelings too. Mardu Ascendancy in my testing also provides a means to get back into a game after an unavoidable wipe by allowing you to double up. It thus synergises very nicely with a Mardu Strike Leader if you get wiped (i.e., 3 for 1, sorta).
I plan to MB Mardu Ascendancy and really go with the token aspect alongside low cost warriors. I think Mardu Control is going to be a big problem still though, even with Thoughtseize, as they have access to pretty much every board wipe going.
What deck are you playing against that has drown, anger, end hostilities, perilous vault and crux of fate? your opponent is most likely only going to have 1 of those sweepers. There's also the fact that your opponent has to actually have the sweeper on turn 3 in order to blow you out. We're an aggro deck, having lands like temple's come into play tapped sounds like aids when all you want to turn is curve from turn 1 to turn 4 and kill them as fast as possible. Also taking damage from playing your lands and thoughtseize is just going to make you lose to something like boss sligh. If the metagame allows you to play pains lands, fetch lands and mana confluence without caring about decks that are faster then you by all means hedge more against the drown / anger's.
You appear to have misread what I wrote. It isn't that one deck has all those sweepers, but all those sweepers do see significant play across the meta. Right now, most of the mid range decks have the ability to transform into control decks after sideboarding. Yes, they have to have the sweeper for it to get you, but they also often have access to a lot of one-for-one removal.
I never advocated for adding scry lands to this deck. Not sure why that was mentioned.
Yes, with the painlands and confluence, the three color Mardu aggro deck will lose to anything faster than it and, in fact, to many decks that are the same speed since it hastens its own demise so effectively. No deck has it all. What I do know is that with token strategies being popular, many of the cards that are good against them work very well against traditional creature based aggro like Mono-black aggro, B/W warriors, and Mono-red. This is why the mini-sweepers are such popular sideboard options; they are solid answers to a big chunk of decks. In my meta, Abzan Aggro will have two or more Drown in Sorrow in the sideboard and likely the full compliment of Bile Blight in the 75. Abzan Midrange typically packs 6 or more sweeper/mini-sweeper effects in the 75, then four Bile Blight and some other removal.
I am not saying I have the answer but I am relatively confident that I know the problem these aggro decks face. You can and will win the majority of your game 1s, but best of three is another story unless you have a good plan for the hate cards.
His first ability at worst gives a little lifelink and first strike to one guy in a swing, or it can give say, Mardu Strike Leader evasion for his dash. Lifelink can help offset your painlands too?
His second ability pumps all your warriors slowly. While perhaps not enough to avoid an Anger or Sorrow, it can still help close the window of time that your opponent has to respond (or even get you to a safer toughness with Chief of the Scale?
His third ability is uhhh... alright I guess? Buys you time to restock if you somehow trigger this? Probably not useful.
He's 4cmc too, so you can get him in pretty easy.
Currently Running Bant Control and a homebrew Blightning Echoes for Type 2.
6 Plains
7 Swamp
2 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
// 30 Creatures \\
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
2 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Brutal Hordechief
3 Boon of Erebos
4 Valorous Stance
15 Not Sure's
The land I think may need some tweaking as I think its a bit heavy in white.
Athreos has been an all-star, and I havent been sad to see him ever, but I also have never seen 2 at once, so thinking of cutting him down to 1 of
Valorous Stance is another all-star, letting me get through Rhinos, Wingmates, Coursers, and anything else my warriors cant do on their own. Also provides protection.
Boon of Erebus I have not been overly impressed with as of yet, but I definitely see the benefit in killing rhinos and living.
Brutal Hordechief is Hellrider, nuff said, but really I do miss Haste, but the drain and his rarely used mana ability makes up for it.
Mardu Shadowspear I like because even when it gets blocked it gets 1 through, and it has become a favorite for me.
Anyone have any criticism or any thoughts/comments?
I'm trying to play this as close to a RDW shell as I can (specifically the RDW from RTR), curving at 4 mana, and just trying to overload and push through.
I didn't misread anything , my point is no deck is running all of those sweepers. At most you're going to see 2 out of any deck. I still don't think that trying to hedge against 2 sweepers (out of 5) is a reason to kill yourself against other aggro decks.
Ajani is interesting, I think we might be ok with pumps from the chief's / obelisk's. if we are looking for lifelink to help against aggro decks, I would use sorin for this type of deck instead of ajani.
You might be able to cut a land or 2. It really depends on how often you're activating the Brutal Hordechief, if it's only been once in 10 matches I would say it might be safe to shave some lands. You could add Battle Brawler maybe Hero's Downfall / Thoughtseize. To help out with the to many white sources, I would add 1 Urborg
I agree, might as well just go mono black and not have to worry about the manabase at that point. You still get brutal hordechief and strike leader.
I may not be able to get a hold of more Thoughseize and Sorin, Solemn Visitor, but can try. The Scoured Barrens is a place holder until I can get a mana confluence
I like the idea of ajani steadfast....plus I've got a copy! It can be a placeholder until I get my Sorin from a friend.
4x Battle Brawler
4x Bloodsoaked Champion
2x Brutal Hordechief
4x Chief of the Edge
2x Chief of the Scale
3x Mardu Strike Leader
1x Mardu Strike Leader
4x Mardu Woe-Reaper
Enchantment
2x Banishing Light
3x Suspension Field
3x Bile Blight
3x Hero's Downfall
Sorcery
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Land
4x Caves of Koilos
6x Plains
1x Scoured Barrens
6x Swamp
4x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x End Hostilities
2x Erase
2x Hushwing Gryff
2x Merciless Executioner
2x Murderous Cut
2x Utter End
3x Valorous Stance
UW Exile Control
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
3 Seeker of the Way
4 Battle Brawler
4 Chief of the Edge
3 Mardu Strike Leader
2 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
2 Butcher of the Horde
Instant (8)
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Valorous Stance
2 Gods Willing
2 Bile Blight
1 Spear of Heliod
1 Obelisk of Urd
Enchantment (2)
2 Mardu Ascendancy
Land (22)
2 Plains
6 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Nomad Outpost
2 Battlefield Forge
2 Mana Confluence
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sign in Blood
2 Boon of Erebos
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Banishing Light
1 Obelisk of Urd
1 Ajani Steadfast
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
Combat tricks just have no business MB here in my opinion. The times where you counter a downfall or a L strike and get a massive tempo swing are very satisfying but not really decisive. I mean spot removal is the worst thing your opponent could be doing against you, it's literally the very thing you shouldn't be worry about. For every answer you have 3 threats, it's really no big deal. The precious 7-8 non-creatures slots we have should be reserved to the things that helps us win our hardest fight, not to make a easy fight even easier. The fact that none of then answers Drown in Sorrow (the very card we should be worrying about) is just sad. They are still good to protect dashers though, so it's SB material imo.
For me be Brutal Hordechief are x4 (at least in the 22~23 land builds). This is the Carytid-Courser-Rhino/Tasigur format, more then half of your opponents will be stalling the board as early as turn 4~5. And this deck is not fast enough to end the game before that. Half of the time the Hordechief will instantly give you 4~5 damage reach which could be enough to just finish no matter how messy the attack is. And if it's not enough, just wait the next land drop and for the instant win. And his not even bad vs. control as his a 4 drop that hits for 4 without dying to Elspeth, he helps you against her tokens and even have immediate impact. About not "ever" using his activated ability... From 9 matches I played today I activated it in 4 of then.
Overall we need tons of white cards because Battle Brawler IS that important because of Courser. It's just because of him I'm playing 2x Chief of the Scale and 3x Banishing Light. Although Bile Blight is too good right now and we need the black sources for that.
Ajani > Sorin in the MB but overall neither are needed in my opinion. Sorin is sweet SB tech vs. control decks.
My deck list:
5 Plains
4 Cavern of Koilos
3 Temple of Silence
3 Mana Confluence
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Tormented Hero
4 Battle Brawler
4 Chief of the Edge
2 Chief of the Scale
4 Brutal Hordechief
3 Banishing Light
3 Bile Blight
1 Utter End
SIDEBOARD
2 Erase
1 Glare of Heresy
1 Valorous Stance
2 Despise
1 Bile Blight
1 Boon of Erebos
2 Athreos, God of Passages
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Utter End
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I personally think valorous stance should be a playset in every list. The ability to have an instant speed way to protect against most removal, or get rid of our biggest road blocks. I probably use it as removal about 75% of the time rather than protection.
I agree that Brutal Hordechief should be a playset as well. Too many times have I won off back to back hordechiefs, even without the haste of Hellrider, he's a a monster.
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Battle Brawler
4 Mardu Strike Leader
3 Brutal Hordechief
2 Chief of the Scale
1 Seeker of the Way
Artifact (3)
2 Spear of Heliod
1 Obelisk of Urd
4 Gods Willing
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
1 Ulcerate
Land (22)
6 Swamp
5 Plains
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scoured Barrens
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Silence
4 Thoughtseize
3 Valorous Stance
2 Merciless Executioner
2 Seeker of the Way
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Bile Blight
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
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6 Plains
7 Swamp
2 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
// 30 Creatures \\
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
2 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Brutal Hordechief
3 Boon of Erebos
4 Valorous Stance
15 Not Sure's
This is my current deck, but I do like your thoughts about combat tricks and it being better to play more threats instead. I am pretty sold on a 4 of as Valorous Stance, but I could easily go to 1 of on Athreos, God of Passage, although I like what he does, its almost more of a win-more card.
For the sideboard, I am still not sure, and usually finish the main deck before starting on that (that may be bad deck building). However, I have had an eye on Abzan Advantage, and personally like the idea of that card against the Ascendancy decks, and possibly Whip. Worst case its a free bolster, best case it bolsters and gets a trouble card gone, also works on God's. Of course, fully SB.
Based on your suggestions, and those of everyone else, I can see using Battle Brawler, even with only 12-14 white cards. I am however a big fan of both Chief of the Edge and Chief of the Scale, and those are some of my only White cards.
Another thought to get Battle Brawler's bonus more consistently would be to use Aven Skirmisher, a vanilla 1/1 flyer, but flying is something this deck doesn't have, and it may be able to get in more damage over the course of the game than Bloodsoaked Champion, who despite the recursion, I am not that impressed with.
Here are some thoughts on some tweaks that I could do to the deck, and still need a SB of course.
6 Plains
7 Swamp
2 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
// 33 Creatures \\
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Battle Brawler
1 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Brutal Hordechief
4 Valorous Stance
15 Not Sure's
Took out the Boon of Erebos, added a playset of Battle Brawler in place, also took 1 Athreos, God of Passage out.
6 Plains
7 Swamp
2 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
// 33 Creatures \\
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Aven Skirmisher
4 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Battle Brawler
1 Athreos, God of Passage
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Brutal Hordechief
4 Valorous Stance
15 Not Sure's
Same thing as deck number one, except replaced the Bloodsoaked Champions with Aven Skirmishers to have more white cards. (personally I like Mardu Shadowspear and Mardu Woe-Reaper better than Bloodsoaked Champion).
6 Plains
7 Swamp
2 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
// 30 Creatures \\
3 Mardu Woe-Reaper
3 Aven Skirmisher
4 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Battle Brawler
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Brutal Hordechief
3 Bile Blight
4 Valorous Stance
15 Not Sure's
Took out Athreos, God of Passage completely and dropped the 1 drops from 12 to 10, added in Battle Brawler and added Bile Blight as a 3 of. Gives a bit more removal.
6 Plains
7 Swamp
2 Mana Confluence
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
// 30 Creatures \\
3 Mardu Woe-Reaper
3 Aven Skirmisher
4 Mardu Shadowspear
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Battle Brawler
4 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Brutal Hordechief
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Valorous Stance
15 Not Sure's
Took out Athreos, God of Passage completely and dropped the 1 drops from 12 to 10, added in Battle Brawler and added Hero's Downfall as a 3 of. Gives a bit more removal.
Again, I know I wrote you a book, but I do greatly appreciate all the assistance, and personally I believe that B/W warriors can make it to Tier 1.5 if not Tier 1 in this standard. From all the talk I've read, I feel like you have the most correct grasp on where to take it, more speed, more kill, more aggro.
Any and all input would be great!
And any deck ideas you have as tweaks, or any side board thoughts.
As for the Aven Skirmisher, hes a simple 1/1, but hes got the reach this deck needs, AND once he gets pumped some, can do some damage.
I feel we can classify B/W Warriors into 3 categories: 1-drop Weenies, Seeker of the Way Aggro, and the standard beatdown shell. I feel whatever direction you choose to go, certain card selections become better or worse. For instance I know in your deck you run 4 different types of 1-drops, my recommendation is to have your 4 copies of Edge and Scale support them, and a good amount of spells to provide protection and +1/+1. My testing with Obelisk has made it a risky card to run in a normal shell, but with a lot of 1-drops, convoking an Obelisk is much more realistic.
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Aven Skirmisher
4 Battle Brawler
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Mardu Strike Leader
Artifact (3)
1 Spear of Heliod
2 Obelisk of Urd
4 Gods Willing
2 Ajani's Presence
Land (23)
6 Plains
7 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
2 Mana Confluence
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Thoughtseize
3 Bile Blight
2 Valorous Stance
2 Brutal Hordechief
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Battle Brawler
4 Mardu Strike Leader
3 Brutal Hordechief
2 Chief of the Scale
1 Seeker of the Way
Artifacts (2)
1 Spear of Heliod
1 Obelisk of Urd
4 Gods Willing
2 Banishing Light
2 Bile Blight
1 Ulcerate
Lands (23)
7 Swamp
6 Plains
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
2 Mana Confluence
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Valorous Stance
2 Merciless Executioner
2 Seeker of the Way
2 Bile Blight
This is an updated version of the last post I made. Some changes I made:
- Replaced Ulcerate with copies of Bile Blight and Hero's Downfall, kept 1 copy in the main
- Replaced 1 copy of Obelisk of Urd with an extra land
- Added an extra copy of Thoughtseize and Valorous Stance to the side
- RECENT: Replaced 2 copies of Downfall in the main with 2 copies of Banishing Light for more white permanents
With heavier CMC costs, protection becomes key and effective removal is needed to avoid big threats that would stall us. Unlike the 1-drop version, we have a slower start to build our board presence, thus making Obelisk a little more inefficient with the lack of convoke targets. I think Downfall and Bile Blight are also a must, too many times the game is over because we don't have the right answer.
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
As for when I say Reach, I mean evasion. Basically a single elspeth can stop us. We somehow need trample, intimidate, flying, unblockable, something. Currently all we have is Brutal HordeChiefs trigger and Mardu Shadowspears trigger.
I think our dependence to cards like Banishing Light, Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, and Bile Blight will be much more important now if we decide to run a higher curve.
An interesting decklist I saw ran more like a weenie deck and implied Return to the Ranks, Ajani's Presence, Dictate of Heliod, as well as a full set of Raiders' Spoils. To be honest, I'm not completely sold on the Raiders' Spoils as I would replace it with Banishing Light, while Defiant Strike on the other hand sounds sketchy to me, though a cantrip is quite appealing (please discuss)...
I believe this is from an equivalent of a FNM (3 he played) with 20-30 players attending. Mind you there is no sideboard.
1st in 休日スタンダード20時の部 - 2015-01-25Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Chief of the Edge
2 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Seeker of the Way
2 Mardu Woe-Reaper
4 Battle Brawler
Artifact (1)
1 Spear of Heliod
Instant (10)
4 Ajani's Presence
4 Defiant Strike
2 Return to the Ranks
Enchantment (5)
1 Dictate of Heliod
4 Raiders' Spoils
Land (24)
9 Plains
7 Swamp
4 Scoured Barrens
4 Caves of Koilos
0 Cards total
I must also note there is an interesting correlation between our problem and another Japanese decklist that is Mono Black Aggro but uses humans with Obelisk of Urd, Mogis's Marauder, and Boon of Erebos:
[Source]
Moving forward with B/W Warriors, we can try to test the ideas in the first decklist against the fact we might be stretching ourselves with Brutal Hordechief and Mardu Strike Leader. Theoretically, Ajani's Presence will help with tokens, Banishing Light will help with Planeswalkers and big threats, and Return to the Ranks will let us do it all over again with our guys.
Here is the decklist I will try, I have no idea where I will take the sideboard as of yet.
7 Plains
5 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Temple of Silence
2 Mana Confluence
Enchantment (4)
3 Banishing Light
1 Dictate of Heliod
Artifact (2)
1 Spear of Heliod
1 Godsend
4 Ajani's Presence
4 Defiant Strike
Sorcery (2)
2 Return to the Ranks
Creature (22)
4 Battle Brawler
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Seeker of the Way
4 Mardu Woe-Reaper
2 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Gods Willing
4 Thoughtseize
3 Valorous Stance
2 Brutal Hordechief
2 Athreos, God of Passage
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
2x Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
3x Athreos, God of Passage
4x Battle Brawler
4x Bloodsoaked Champion
4x Chief of the Edge
4x Chief of the Scale
3x Mardu Strike Leader
1x Crux of Fate
1x End Hostilities
2x Return to the Ranks
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
8x Plains
7x Swamp
4x Temple of Silence
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Aegis of the Gods
3x Bile Blight
3x End Hostilities
2x Hushwing Gryff
4x Utter End
- Crux of Fate and End Hostilities sounds kind of skidish in an aggressive deck
- Four Sorin, Solemn Visitor is too much, 2 max in this build
- Consider Banishing Light over Hero's Downfall to provide another W permanent for Battle Brawler
- Consider Mardu Woe-Reaper over Bloodsoaked Champion for the same reason as above
- Invest into 1-2 CMC instants, to provide your guys with that extra bit
Standard: Orzhov Aggro
I'm considering Temple of Silence over Scoured Barrens however the lifepoints are greatly needed in the aggro match up. Sideboard is my own.
EDIT: now a pure Hirokazu build with tight SB selection
9 Plains
7 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Scoured Barrens
Enchantment (5)
4 Raiders' Spoils
1 Dictate of Heliod
Instant (8)
4 Defiant Strike
4 Ajani's Presence
2 Return to the Ranks
Artifact (1)
1 Spear of Heliod
Creature (20)
4 Battle Brawler
4 Chief of the Edge
4 Chief of the Scale
4 Seeker of the Way
2 Mardu Woe-Reaper
2 Mardu Strike Leader
4 Gods Willing
4 Thoughtseize
4 Valorous Stance
3 Brutal Hordechief
Standard: Orzhov Aggro