I'm not sure if this is just an experiment in my usual tendency to take an archetype in a set of colors Wizards is pushing and moving it to a different color combination to shore up a weakness or if this is worthwhile. I find that generally they build the format in a way that everything balances out and one of the ways to mess with that is to give certain decks the ability to do something they have no business doing. Sometimes this can be achieved with splashes, sometimes it can be achieved with specific role players, but sometimes it's just taking an archetype in one set of colors and moving it slightly. I did that with effectively Saito Jund (or as Cedric Philips called it a couple months later Unfriendly Skies), and my last venture into it was RUG monsters last season where the sheer ability to go over the top(not to mention the versatility of permission/burn split cards) avoided some of the pitfalls that affected Jund let me continue to play monsters right til the end of the format.
After playing a bunch of Temur the past month and taking those good midrange matchups and pretty much unloseable control matchups, I had managed to get Jeskai Tempo in check and Red aggro, I found myself at the mercy of GB devotion and Constellations.. which was a bit annoying since before I managed to shore up Jeskai and Red those bigger Green decks were easy matchups too. I realized the problem was no great equalizer and playing my typical aggressive/swingy style was being pushed too much into a grind. Moved to try Anger of the Gods yet again and still awkward. The problem was basically Temur would kill for Doomwake Giant and Bile Blight. The more I played the less impressive Knuckleblade was and the more impressive cards that I could cast on time were. Boon Satyr was excellent, and in so I tried to go a bit bigger grabbing stuff from the GR lists had been winning. Eventually the only blue cards I actually cared about were Stubborn Denial.
So back to the drawing board. See the blue cards are pretty clutch I think, maybe the red cards are just better and I should be playing Jund but without the tricolor support of the format I figure I will try Sultai first. Currently I'm testing quite a few cards. Basically without Xenagos the deck is incapable of creating as much mana. Secondly I don't think Rakshasa Death Dealer is where I want to be as it seems slow and grindy. That being said maybe the 10 dorks aren't needed. I haven't really figured out what the big threat of the deck should be. Right now I through in 2 Arbor Colossus. Realistically there are better options. I'm not completely sold on Herald of Torment either. Hornet Queen at 7 or Genesis Hydra never seemed consistent enough, maybe going to 24 lands would fix that. The key here is maintaining the close curving through 4-5 to outsize the board and use that to push through much like how a GR deck operates. I realize there is no Crater's Claws but I never leaned too heavily on that card anyway.
Anyway testing a bunch of stuff.. here is my current list. I appreciate any thoughts or suggestions:
I play Sultai Constellation/Villainous wealth and a card im liking in conjunction with Boon Satyr is Hypnotic Siren. It is a chump blocker early, but late game can steal their biggest threat. Boon satrt bestowed on it give u a 5power flyer as extra synergy. Its a thought anyway. Prognostic sphinx might be good too
Yeah I've seen the Villainous Wealth decks.. my concern have been they are sort of all in. Makes playing control matchups a bit awkward.
As for Hypnotic Siren atleast in a deck like this you aren't really worried about their creatures. I basically chose this color combination because your creatures are bigger and your removal deals with anything else. If it stole planeswalkers might be ok, but 7 mana is a lot on that side. The timing of my list is much more tempo where I'd almost play Void Snare rather than something for 7 mana.
I've done some more testing and am sitting at this right now. This might actually not be a reasonable maindeck but one that is basically pre-sideboarded unintentionally. Whip main seems wrong, but it also seems to do what the deck wants to do for staying power. I am still working out wrinkles main so I'm not positive on how good most of the sideboard is.
Still this is much better than my original list. I did need some number of Rakshasa, and the bigger mana was a waste. I've bumped the constellations subtheme a touch but basically it operates similarly. I did go to 4 Rakshasa at one point but it was too much. Rakshasa and Reaper are more gridy finishers than necessarily on curve sort of things. Rakshasa isn' this decks Fleecemane Lion, it's more it's Scavenging Ooze. It's below curve but it provides mid to late game versatility.. you'd rather play something more expensive sooner. Boon Satyr and Courser are really the decks push forward cards.
Been testing some more.. the mana was a bit awkward. I find I want the 24th land these days over the 4th Caryatid. Just something about the timing. The deck isn't even that high curve but you want to be able to play multiple spells on the same turn, and Caryatid is a bit more awkward than it's been. Better than Rattleclaw I think in this deck purely on that it mostly lives. You want your mana to live more than anything. And you want it to be smooth.. not many tapped lands and not too much pain. That's largely the problem with Temur. I also changed the board a bit, it's not too different. But I found Hornet's Nest wanting.
So far matchup wise it seems the deck has an almost unbeatable control matchup, and a very good aggro/mardu/jeskai type matchup. It's decent against Abzan and Temur. It's good against any gimmicky strategy like Heroic or Villainous Wealth. The weakest matchup by far are the bigger GB decks, like the reanimator/devotion strategies. Basically any go long sinergy type deck. You can sort of battle it out but there are a lot of places where you can misplay. The deck plays a lot like the Temur deck when you don't have the late game Crater's Claws.
I can see that I just think Stubborn Denial is that good. I am actually trying 3 main now. Effective permission is a lot cheaper than removal right now. Even my approach to removal is to try to not to play that many 3 cost spells. As I said I've played a lot of Temur and love what it does but found Ashcloud Pheonix and Heir just not quite good enough. When you add the effort it takes to handle decks that flank you GB threats start seeming better. But the deck fundamentally works very well. Seriously what does Temur play the blue for, even Kibler has gone to cutting the rather awkward Temur Charm. Blue is just their to support his knuckleblades and Denial main. But that takes a pretty big investment to get on time in the case of Knuckleblade. I think the sideboard cards and Stubborn denial are enough even without Knuckleblade. Knuckleblade is a great card but is a bit too awkward to cast on time if you don't want to be losing all your life to your lands.
The timing of this deck is as you'd expect since you aim to get the biggest threats on the board, you can hold up Denial pretty early on. The only real risk is rapid early Stormbreath's from your opponent but most people aren't building their decks that way. Otherwise all your threats stand up favorably against the field. Doomwake is your Mizzium Mortars to a degree.. I've actually moved to more Drowns in the board, because most decks that go bigger than you actually try to flank you just like aggro decks. So while a bit self defeating if you are playing to that plan you can make it so your Boon Satyr's and Eidolon's don't interfere so much. The thing is if you have a Arbor Colossus in play, a Reaper, and some denials maybe some Rakshasa's, while you might not be winning you aren't exactly losing against a lot of decks. You only need to clear away the odd death touch token. It's not as effective as say pure go big plan like reanimator, but those decks typically don't have the avenue to win on pure Boon Satyr beats.
Here's my latest list. Since last posting I've played against Temur way more and am yet to lose. So I think I have the right timing for that matchup now. Really it's only figuring out the other GB decks.
Thoughtseize would fill a very similar roll to stubborn denial. The fact that you can have similar enough functionality without the 3rd color makes it really not worth it.
Thoughtseize while disruptive doesn't give the same ability to keep ahead. I tried Thoughtseize at first and I have played straight GB but it didn't have the same timing. As I said I'm very much coming from a Temur perspective. I couldn't be more happy with the blue splash. The weakness is purely in some of the extra fill the slot type of cards like Whip, and maybe Eidolon of Blossoms. I'm not pushing that angle hard enough for it quite to be good enough perhaps. It's been pretty good at smoothing stuff but maybe I have too many. Maybe I don't need Whip at all. Maybe there is 1-2 more 4-5 drops that fit what this deck is trying to do better. Basically it's missing the Crater's Claw so to speak, but I don't think Claws is particularly good at what I'm looking for anyway. The idea I think is that while the enchantments are good in the deck they shouldn't be all the key threats just the support cards so an opponent who boards into enchantment removal is still behind the ball otherwise I'd consider stuff like Nighthowler maybe even. Herald is ok, but it's rate isn't good enough. An additional 3 for 5 isn't worth it and the lifeloss can be a liability. It can line up nice with Whip but it's too much commitment. I'd rather have more singular good cards. I do like having atleast 1 Eidolon there are places where it's just the best way to proceed. I do wonder if Bow is better than Whip here.
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Been playing with the mana slightly and trying a bit different main. The mana is definitely better not sure on Bow vs Whip, but it's probably because the mana is better it's hard to tell. Both of those cards are for when the game gets a bit grindy and I've been doing a good job avoiding that of late.
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After playing a bunch of Temur the past month and taking those good midrange matchups and pretty much unloseable control matchups, I had managed to get Jeskai Tempo in check and Red aggro, I found myself at the mercy of GB devotion and Constellations.. which was a bit annoying since before I managed to shore up Jeskai and Red those bigger Green decks were easy matchups too. I realized the problem was no great equalizer and playing my typical aggressive/swingy style was being pushed too much into a grind. Moved to try Anger of the Gods yet again and still awkward. The problem was basically Temur would kill for Doomwake Giant and Bile Blight. The more I played the less impressive Knuckleblade was and the more impressive cards that I could cast on time were. Boon Satyr was excellent, and in so I tried to go a bit bigger grabbing stuff from the GR lists had been winning. Eventually the only blue cards I actually cared about were Stubborn Denial.
So back to the drawing board. See the blue cards are pretty clutch I think, maybe the red cards are just better and I should be playing Jund but without the tricolor support of the format I figure I will try Sultai first. Currently I'm testing quite a few cards. Basically without Xenagos the deck is incapable of creating as much mana. Secondly I don't think Rakshasa Death Dealer is where I want to be as it seems slow and grindy. That being said maybe the 10 dorks aren't needed. I haven't really figured out what the big threat of the deck should be. Right now I through in 2 Arbor Colossus. Realistically there are better options. I'm not completely sold on Herald of Torment either. Hornet Queen at 7 or Genesis Hydra never seemed consistent enough, maybe going to 24 lands would fix that. The key here is maintaining the close curving through 4-5 to outsize the board and use that to push through much like how a GR deck operates. I realize there is no Crater's Claws but I never leaned too heavily on that card anyway.
Anyway testing a bunch of stuff.. here is my current list. I appreciate any thoughts or suggestions:
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Temple of Malady
2 Polluted Delta
2 Opulent Palace
1 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
Creatures(30):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Rattleclaw Mystic
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos
3 Reaper of the Wilds
1 Nighthowler
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Herald of Torment
2 Arbor Colossus
1 Gather Courage
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Hunt the Hunter
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Bile Blight
2 Sultai Charm
2 Hornet Nest
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
As for Hypnotic Siren atleast in a deck like this you aren't really worried about their creatures. I basically chose this color combination because your creatures are bigger and your removal deals with anything else. If it stole planeswalkers might be ok, but 7 mana is a lot on that side. The timing of my list is much more tempo where I'd almost play Void Snare rather than something for 7 mana.
I've done some more testing and am sitting at this right now. This might actually not be a reasonable maindeck but one that is basically pre-sideboarded unintentionally. Whip main seems wrong, but it also seems to do what the deck wants to do for staying power. I am still working out wrinkles main so I'm not positive on how good most of the sideboard is.
Still this is much better than my original list. I did need some number of Rakshasa, and the bigger mana was a waste. I've bumped the constellations subtheme a touch but basically it operates similarly. I did go to 4 Rakshasa at one point but it was too much. Rakshasa and Reaper are more gridy finishers than necessarily on curve sort of things. Rakshasa isn' this decks Fleecemane Lion, it's more it's Scavenging Ooze. It's below curve but it provides mid to late game versatility.. you'd rather play something more expensive sooner. Boon Satyr and Courser are really the decks push forward cards.
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Temple of Malady
2 Polluted Delta
2 Opulent Palace
1 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
Creatures(29):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Rakshasa Deathdealer
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, the World Eater
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Hunt the Hunter
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Bile Blight
2 Sultai Charm
2 Hornet Nest
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Mistcutter Hydra
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
So far matchup wise it seems the deck has an almost unbeatable control matchup, and a very good aggro/mardu/jeskai type matchup. It's decent against Abzan and Temur. It's good against any gimmicky strategy like Heroic or Villainous Wealth. The weakest matchup by far are the bigger GB decks, like the reanimator/devotion strategies. Basically any go long sinergy type deck. You can sort of battle it out but there are a lot of places where you can misplay. The deck plays a lot like the Temur deck when you don't have the late game Crater's Claws.
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Temple of Malady
2 Polluted Delta
3 Opulent Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
Creatures(28):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Rakshasa Deathdealer
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, the World Eater
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Hunt the Hunter
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Bile Blight
2 Sultai Charm
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Mistcutter Hydra
I think the 2nd Whip main is probably wrong. I just don't know what I want to replace it with. Maybe it should be a Herald of Torment.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
The timing of this deck is as you'd expect since you aim to get the biggest threats on the board, you can hold up Denial pretty early on. The only real risk is rapid early Stormbreath's from your opponent but most people aren't building their decks that way. Otherwise all your threats stand up favorably against the field. Doomwake is your Mizzium Mortars to a degree.. I've actually moved to more Drowns in the board, because most decks that go bigger than you actually try to flank you just like aggro decks. So while a bit self defeating if you are playing to that plan you can make it so your Boon Satyr's and Eidolon's don't interfere so much. The thing is if you have a Arbor Colossus in play, a Reaper, and some denials maybe some Rakshasa's, while you might not be winning you aren't exactly losing against a lot of decks. You only need to clear away the odd death touch token. It's not as effective as say pure go big plan like reanimator, but those decks typically don't have the avenue to win on pure Boon Satyr beats.
Here's my latest list. Since last posting I've played against Temur way more and am yet to lose. So I think I have the right timing for that matchup now. Really it's only figuring out the other GB decks.
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Temple of Malady
2 Polluted Delta
3 Opulent Palace
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
Creatures(28):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Rakshasa Deathdealer
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, the World Eater
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Arbor Colossus
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Hunt the Hunter
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Bile Blight
2 Sultai Charm
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Mistcutter Hydra
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Yavimaya Coast
1 Temple of Malady
3 Polluted Delta
3 Opulent Palace
6 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island
Creatures(28):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Rakshasa Deathdealer
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Boon Satyr
3 Polukranos, the World Eater
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Doomwake Giant
2 Arbor Colossus
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Hunt the Hunter
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Bile Blight
2 Sultai Charm
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
2 Mistcutter Hydra
Been playing with the mana slightly and trying a bit different main. The mana is definitely better not sure on Bow vs Whip, but it's probably because the mana is better it's hard to tell. Both of those cards are for when the game gets a bit grindy and I've been doing a good job avoiding that of late.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage